Go Back   Digital Webbing Forums > Talent Engine > Creator Community

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-01-2013, 02:53 PM   #76
Screwtape Jenkins
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 264
Screwtape Jenkins will become famous soon enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renae De Liz View Post
Yes. Usually people give it a name personal to your title. Peter Pan was "Your name in the Lost Girls and Boys" section. My friend's fantasy book had a "Wall of Heroes". Just a little suggestion to give backers a slightly cooler place for their name.
Hmmm.... since my book is religious-themed, perhaps I'll sell indulgences.

"When a coin in the kickstarter coffers sings, a soul to heaven springs!"
Screwtape Jenkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 03:01 PM   #77
Screwtape Jenkins
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 264
Screwtape Jenkins will become famous soon enough

Little mid-afternoon Reformation humor.
Screwtape Jenkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 04:52 PM   #78
DaveyDouble
Wise Ass
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 529
DaveyDouble is just really niceDaveyDouble is just really niceDaveyDouble is just really niceDaveyDouble is just really niceDaveyDouble is just really niceDaveyDouble is just really nice

Renae - I think you may have just set yourself up for a massive amount of email/PM goings on.
Id really like to pick your brain about Kickstarter myself if its ok with you?

The basic campaign outline is already incredibly useful and I'd like to say a big personal thank you for posting it!
Seeing it broken down has given me a little more confidence and impetus to get the ball rolling on my own book (which is still about 6 months away from getting properly underway)
DaveyDouble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 05:17 PM   #79
Evan Henry
Illegitimate Teletubby
 
Evan Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,000
Evan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to behold

Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins View Post
The margins on kickstarter though go way beyond normal profit margins. If I took Renae's advice, I'd be selling a book that cost me 3 bucks to make, plus a .pdf that costs me nothing, for 15 dollars. That's a 500% profit margin. Most businesses would be elated to see 15% returns.
You are aware that you have completely failed to account for shipping, international shipping (which is a whole category of its own, as anyone who has had to deal with it can tell you), advertising, and compensating the creative team, yes? These are things that every company accounts for when talking about "profit margins."

Now you could very well be right that some Kickstarter teams (not all or even necessarily most of that half who get funded) are pulling down a proportionately greater net profit than major publishers -- I wouldn't know, as I'm not privy to anyone's financial records -- but it's not as simple as taking two numbers and saying that one is x times bigger than the other.
Evan Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 05:44 PM   #80
Screwtape Jenkins
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 264
Screwtape Jenkins will become famous soon enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMonkey View Post
You are aware that you have completely failed to account for shipping, international shipping (which is a whole category of its own, as anyone who has had to deal with it can tell you), advertising, and compensating the creative team, yes? These are things that every company accounts for when talking about "profit margins."

Now you could very well be right that some Kickstarter teams (not all or even necessarily most of that half who get funded) are pulling down a proportionately greater net profit than major publishers -- I wouldn't know, as I'm not privy to anyone's financial records -- but it's not as simple as taking two numbers and saying that one is x times bigger than the other.
I'm pretty sure every comic book sold has advertising costs, shipping costs, and production costs. Despite that, I've yet to see a 22 page comic book priced at $15 outside of kickstarter. Have you?
Screwtape Jenkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 06:03 PM   #81
amon
Registered Obtuser
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 431
amon will become famous soon enough

Well, not since Chaos! Comics went out of business.
amon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 06:05 PM   #82
Screwtape Jenkins
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 264
Screwtape Jenkins will become famous soon enough

Anyway, I think we've successfully established that not everyone agrees with my take on kickstarter. For the rest of the conversation, how about we just take that as granted?

Renae, I wanted to ask you some questions about how stuff works once the campaign is completed. To wit:

1) How are your pledges and their level of backing and their rewards tracked on kickstarter? Or is that stuff up to you to organize?

(I could see it being really difficult to go back and see who pledged what and whether their pledge came through and what their rewards are and what their address is...etc)

2) Once your campaign is funded and the KS ends, does KS cut you a check or deposit money in an account, or is that at your discretion?

3) How soon after the KS ends is the money transferred?

Basically I'm just concerned about the part when the KS is over and I've got hundreds of orders to ship to hundreds of addresses. I'm concerned about how well I'd be able to keep up with that without a lot of help. That's not really my bailiwick.
Screwtape Jenkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 07:06 PM   #83
CHWolf
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In the Conservatory, with the Revolver.
Posts: 5,623
CHWolf is a name known to allCHWolf is a name known to allCHWolf is a name known to allCHWolf is a name known to allCHWolf is a name known to allCHWolf is a name known to allCHWolf is a name known to allCHWolf is a name known to allCHWolf is a name known to all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renae De Liz View Post
I'd love to help run it with you, but then I'd have no time to draw comics!

But of COURSE I'll help you with the setup, and give input (if you want it). I don't want money though, just want to help! Are you thinking about giving it a try? If you give me a few details I can help lay out a scenario as an option too.
Oh, no prob. The whole idea is kind of screwed for me atm since if I can't use the site, I don't think I can retrieve backer info, etc.
CHWolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 09:18 PM   #84
paul brian deberry
is a MASShole
 
paul brian deberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: just out of reach
Posts: 3,615
paul brian deberry is a splendid one to beholdpaul brian deberry is a splendid one to beholdpaul brian deberry is a splendid one to beholdpaul brian deberry is a splendid one to beholdpaul brian deberry is a splendid one to beholdpaul brian deberry is a splendid one to beholdpaul brian deberry is a splendid one to beholdpaul brian deberry is a splendid one to beholdpaul brian deberry is a splendid one to beholdpaul brian deberry is a splendid one to beholdpaul brian deberry is a splendid one to behold

to bad there isn't a regular mod hanging around to sticky this thread.

this post alone is gold.

Quote:
....$6,000 would cover creative costs, production, shipping, fees, a buffer (for dropped pledges, returns, re-shipping).

If your Core Reward is your physical book copy, and it costs around $7 to fulfill completely to a US backer (printing, shipping to you, shipping/packaging to backer) Then I would put your physical book at $15 tier with a digital download of it (and any other perks that are low/no cost to add).

In that case, if you sold nothing but that $15 tier (which you'll get pledges higher than that, but just for estimates sake) You'd have to sell 400 copies.

I'd offer something like:

$1 Thank You
$5 Digital Download
$15 Physical Copy + All of the above
$25 Sketchbook (or writers book, whatever you want to call it) + All of the above
$50 Signed copy with bookmarks/magnets (flat merchandise that is easy to ship with the actual book)
$125 Cameo in book plus all of the above
$250 Help you write a scene/create a character/creature, etc (anything that includes a personal experience. OR offer up a sketch from the artist)


That's really all you need to get started. You can add in more later if you wanted.

In case it's an issue, it's okay to charge more for items on Kickstarter if it's necessary (it's more like Etsy than Amazon. There's more time, effort, and care that goes into the process, so it is worth the money) just try and make it worthwhile for your backers (add some digital content. Pin ups/Wallpapers). People have common misconceptions that they MUST charge according to what publishers charge per book. In your case it's impossible, but people just want to see your vision come to life)

I would start with 1 issue (or even fund the last half of the first issue for a 3K campaign) and just see how it goes from there. If you do great with Issue 1 reaching backers in time, Issue #2 (or a smaller 48 pg GN) will be that much easier. If that goes well, you can step up to a GN.

Full on funding goal for 3 issues would be 18K and for all 6 would be around 30K, which are riskier until you get a following. 3-6 K are completely possible though, as long as you do a great job with that video and representation on the page.....
I've consulted on a couple Kickstarter campaigns recently and I can tell you (what a quoted above) is everything you need to know about running a successful campaign.
__________________
P.B.DeBerry is a writer/letterer of words, soup enthusiast in Massachusetts with a talent for over thinking. This bio took him five hours to write. You can read more from P.B. at.. fisticuffswriting.com
paul brian deberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 09:48 PM   #85
russbrett
Sidekicks(Writer/Creator)
 
russbrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 330
russbrett has a spectacular aura aboutrussbrett has a spectacular aura about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins View Post
I guess I could go a book at a time, and just try to get each one done before kickstarting the next. That's what russbret said he was going to try to do and maybe that's the best idea.
Sidekicks is a 3 issue mini-series. I paid my artist $600 upfront to do 4 fully colored and lettered pages, plus a cover to be used as a Preview.

As the art rolls in I'm updating various websites where I've set up "Official Threads" (like I've done here), as well as the Facebook page and Twitter feed.

Once the Preview is done I plan on printing about a dozen physical copies (maybe full size, maybe half, haven't decided yet) to pass around to people who would likely back the project but who might not feel comfortable signing up for Kickstarter to donate (basically, pre-orders). This will help lower the Pledge Goal amount (which is double good because the "pre-order" are not subject to the ~8% fees associated with KS and Amazon).

The Preview pages will also be used on the KS page to let backers see what the finished comic will look like (I picked a 4-page sequence that just defines the book perfectly - if you saw my "Question for the Artists" thread you'll have seen the final page in that sequence).

I'm also going to all my local comic book shops (and some a bit outside of local) and showing them the art so far and questioning them about the possibility of putting a Preview book and flyer in their stores once the KS campaign is launched. So far, of the three store owners I've talked to, all three said yes and they would like to help in any way they can.

I'm a bit torn on stretch goals at the moment. I think instead I might just declare that any additional funds beyond the Pledge Goal will go towards bringing down the Pledge Goal of issue 2.
russbrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 09:58 PM   #86
russbrett
Sidekicks(Writer/Creator)
 
russbrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 330
russbrett has a spectacular aura aboutrussbrett has a spectacular aura about

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renae De Liz View Post
You could choose to offer regular merchandise that requires it's own separate shipping, but be aware of the extra shipping/packaging costs involved and price the reward accordingly ( I usually say to AT LEAST double to fulfillment cost to get the reward price, because you NEED enough money to go towards creative costs/fees, etc to make it worthwhile). So a T-shirt may end up being WAY too expensive for a backer.
To add to this point, among the many KS campaigns I've looked at, the T-Shirt reward is very rarely pledged at.



Quote:
Not that I'm aware of. I actually just had this conversation with another Kickstarter that wanted to put the script as it's own reward. (he decided to do it anyway, and not one backer has gotten it)

I would suggest putting your script, production notes, sketches, etc into the "Sketch Book" (or whatever you choose to call it) and make the books on CreateSpace.com. The books should cost you around $2 each to get to you (that's for 100+pages w/color cover). I did the Womanthology sketchbook with them, and it turned out great.
If you're worried about the resolution of printing an actual "Sketch Book" you can also go the PDF route. That's what I plan on doing. No print costs. No shipping headaches. And it doesn't cost anything. Money straight to your content costs.

Quote:
Also I ABSOLUTELY get the "no time" thing. But be aware too that a Campaign is very time consuming. You need to spend time setting up interviews if you can, talk to blogs to highlight you, emailing people, networking, etc. Also consider buying Facebook Ads if you have funding now to put towards your campaign. But all of this is secondary to using time to making the BEST video you can make. That is the most important aspect.
"No Time" doesn't begin to describe it. Sidekicks is taking up nearly all of my free time. Updating websites, Facebook, Twitter. Making as many contacts as I can. Maintaining a dialogue with my artist to keep everything on schedule.

It's a lot of work. BUT... if, when all is said and done, I raise the money I need to make a comic book that I created... Totally Worth It!
russbrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 09:59 PM   #87
russbrett
Sidekicks(Writer/Creator)
 
russbrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 330
russbrett has a spectacular aura aboutrussbrett has a spectacular aura about

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brian deberry View Post
to bad there isn't a regular mod hanging around to sticky this thread.
We should probably just make a How-To Kickstarter thread and copy everything into there.
russbrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2013, 11:28 PM   #88
Evan Henry
Illegitimate Teletubby
 
Evan Henry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,000
Evan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to beholdEvan Henry is a splendid one to behold

Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins View Post
I'm pretty sure every comic book sold has advertising costs, shipping costs, and production costs. Despite that, I've yet to see a 22 page comic book priced at $15 outside of kickstarter. Have you?
You completely failed to understand my point. Again.

Physical copies of comics from larger publishers are cheaper in almost every respect, on a per-copy basis, to manufacture and deliver to consumers. Instead of distributing through a middleman to the 3,000 LCS's with a Diamond account in the United States, Kickstarter creators are personally shipping every single copy in an individual mailer to everyone who pre-ordered. Instead of printing 50,000 copies on a wholesale basis through a company like Quebecor for roughly 40-60 cents per copy, you will probably be working on a few hundred copies (a thousand or more if you're lucky) through a POD service like Lulu or Mimeo for about... how much, again?

Well, here's some info on Lulu, since I happen to have it close to hand. Their standard price to print a 24-page comic (B+W, color front cover with a saddle stitch on mid-quality paper; short run) is $2.89 as of May 2012, before you even take into account the cost of getting the comic from Lulu to you so you can distribute it to your customers. Now, I don't know how many copies you have to order before that starts to get lower, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to get that much better, considering that even the more successful Kickstarter campaigns are usually working with pretty small sales numbers (and many of them with multiple books/issues at that). I paid Lulu twenty dollars to ship me ten copies of an anthology I was in several years ago. That's one cost that isn't going to go down with more copies.

Now, if you are very, very, ridiculously successful in your campaign, and can manage to swing 2,500 copies or more in sales, you might be able to get a decent price (60-70 cents per copy) from a company like Morgan Printing (that's a number I got from Fred van Lente, a person who most Kickstarter creators... well, aren't). POD services are generally cheaper than the large printers until you get waaaaaaaay up there in numbers. For either, $1 per copy is about standard if we're talking about somewhere in the 5,000-10,000 range. Anything significantly lower than that is doing some serious statistical outlying.

You're making the mistake of assuming that because a comic you receive from a Kickstarter campaign more or less feels like, looks like, and is printed on the same shiny paper as Justice League or Savage Dragon, that the costs involved are identical. They are not, and any assumed "profit margin" you derive from that premise is automatically invalid.
Evan Henry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 12:22 AM   #89
Aaron Walther
Writer Guy
 
Aaron Walther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 865
Aaron Walther is a name known to allAaron Walther is a name known to allAaron Walther is a name known to allAaron Walther is a name known to allAaron Walther is a name known to allAaron Walther is a name known to allAaron Walther is a name known to allAaron Walther is a name known to allAaron Walther is a name known to all

It cost me about $20 (give or take a dollar depending on the region) to send a 176 page graphic novel and three 11x17 prints to international bidders.

Which, by the way, I was giving away for a $35 bid. ($30 for domestic + $5 for international)

Lesson learned. Renae isn't kidding when she says international shipping is a bitch.
__________________
My Facebook
My Blog
My Comics
Aaron Walther is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2013, 12:22 AM   #90
Screwtape Jenkins
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 264
Screwtape Jenkins will become famous soon enough

Was that screed supposed to make a $15 price tag on a 22 page comic book reasonable? Because if so, it didn't work.

I have printing costs myself. My book cost me about 3 bucks to print at kablaam, and I've sunk about $3000 into my production costs. Despite that, I can't put that book on a shelf and sell it for $15. Even if it would help me get my money back, I can't do it. Because regardless of what my costs were, the book's not worth $15. The market has firmly decided on this - no brand-new 22 page book is worth $15.

Again, reasonable, expected price margins in everyday life are around 15% or less. KS users are typically trying to make back their money on a much smaller amount of product, but the end result of that is still price gouging on the consumer end. You don't sell stuff for what it costs you to make, you sell it for what the market will bear. Otherwise, you won't sell anything.

If your business model requires you to sell a 22 page comic book for $15, your business model is utterly broken. Such a model would of course fail, except for the fact that most consumers know that kickstarter is, in most cases, essentially a charity. They're paying what they're paying to support the artist, not for the product given in return. As such, the margins on kickstarter go FAR BEYOND the margins of a simple sales transaction.

You argue as if your decision to engage in an irrational and broken business model is a fair cost to pass onto consumers. The logical conclusion of that argument is if I decided to only print one issue of my comic, I could charge $3005 for it, in order to cover my costs and yield myself a 2 dollar profit. When asked by a consumer why the hell my 22 page comic costs $3005, I would explain to him "Oh, don't worry. It's not price-gouging. I just decided not to print enough copies to allow me to sell the book at a cheaper per unit price. So the $3005 price tag is perfectly fair, despite the fact that it's about a thousand times the price the market has set for a 22 page comic book." I'm sorry, that argument is ridiculous. Your costs aren't the consumer's problem. If you arranged your business such that you have to sell a 22 page comic for $15, you fucked up. And it's not the consumer's problem to fix your fuck up.

That's why I said as a business model qua business model, kickstarter is simply price gouging. As an endeavor which is understood to be, at bottom, a charity, it's perfectly acceptable.

Thus, since it's only acceptable as a charity, it should only be used by proper targets of charity. Rich/famous producers are not proper targets of charity, thus, IMO, they shouldn't be on kickstarter.

You write as if I have a problem with kickstarter in general. I don't, as I've said several times. I have a problem with rich/famous people using kickstarter.
Screwtape Jenkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
advice, fund raising, help needed, kickstarter

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1997-2015 Digital Webbing, LLC