Are my numbers good?

[dmh_3000]

As part of my 2011 resolutions I decided to keep better track of how much I've spent and earned on my comic, or need to spend, so I can make sure I've paid artists what they're owed and also calculate how I'm doing. The idea was to get as close to profit as possible by the end of the year.

But when I spreadsheet, I realised that taking into account what I've paid artists and spent on advertising, plus what I've earned working on other indie comics and from sales of my own issues, I'm still over $3000 in the negative. I know a lot of writers pour a lot of money into their comics, but I figured I need some perspective.

Am I spending too much and getting too little back, is this the norm or am I actually doing better than some people?

To give you an idea of the costs, I'm currently getting both my websites for Living With Insanity and Domain Tnemrot redesigned, plus I've put out Just Another Day, which I paid for the art, and two issues of Gemini Storm, the second of which I paid for the colourist and alternate cover and only came out last week so I don't have any sales from Ka-Blam! registered yet (Their process is manual, not automatic). Also, the advertising costs are taking into account the past year.

So yeah, if I could just get an idea on whether I'm doing bad, good or the norm would be great.

[Steven Forbes]

I'd say you're doing pretty good.

Here's the thing: it takes a LOT of time put in in order to turn a profit.

Hell, it takes time to even come close to breaking even. And it sounds to me like you're close to breaking even.

As for finding an agent: while it's true that they don't get paid until you get paid, also watch the book market, if that's what you want to do. Waldenbooks is basically gone, Borders seems to be circling the drain, and that only leaves Barnes & Noble as somewhat stable. When Borders goes, several publishing houses are going to go with it.

Chain-style bookstores are going to be as prolific as omnipresent as Hollywood video, and basically for the same reason: the inability to move with the times.

And when publishing houses don't have bookstores to sell to, what happens then?

Also, don't forget: publishing houses are notoriously slow at approving anything. I have a book proposal at Random House, and I'm STILL waiting to hear back on it. It's been a year. In that time, I could have had the book made, printed, and be selling them, keeping the lion's share of the profits (after everyone else has been paid, of course).

Agents represent you to publishing houses, who then buy your book and sell it to distributors, who then sell it to bookstores, who then sell it the reading public. (Sound familiar?) Bookstores are slowly going away. I personally don't advocate pursuing that market anymore.

Anyway, here are some thoughts and questions to ask yourself, to get you closer to being in the black:

Break everything down seperately, as its own entity. This way, you can see where your costs are actually coming from. Don't lump everything together. Break out the money coming in and going out for every separate project. Each website, and every comic book issue.

Did the websites need to be redesigned? Could you have delayed that cost? Are you selling anything on the websites that could help offset the cost of running it?

For books that you've just put out, remove the costs of them for now. You don't have any money coming in from those yet, so those costs aren't going to do anythng but weigh you down.

See how much you're paying for advertising, and then try to do a comparison of before and after to see if the campaigns are effective. If you've been doing it for a while, and are dealing with a specific person instead of a large, faceless company, see if you can renegotiate the rates.

Anyway, figuring the costs of making comics versus what you're bringing in, I'd say that you're doing well. $3k is not a lot of money to be down.

Good work!

-Steven

[Lightfoot]

OK so this sounds like a flame war with the first flame thrown, ouch!

[rocketpig]

Good thing I packed marshmallows and graham crackers this morning.

[Steven Forbes]

Nah, not a flame war, Lee. There's no need.

For some reason, Rich doesn't like me. :shrug: Don't know why, and really, don't care.

Let him keep his "knowledge" about how the comic industry works, and about what can and cannot happen. Really, that's on him.

This would actually be the second time he's edited posts in this thread. The first time was to remove a line about a "freelance editor," which is almost always a veiled reference to myself. The second time was to add the "covering your ass" bit, which called me by name.

Like I said, he's got a thing for me. :shrug:

And really, in a flame war, no one wins. Generally. In this case, Rich would win, because it would only end up with me looking bad. He's not doing anything in comics, and I'm building my name. I'd much rather be known for my comics writing and editing than as that guy who got in a flame-war with another guy. Words have a way of living forever (or coming pretty close) on the internet.

-Steven

[maverick]

Why does richcapo feel the need to turn every single thread into his personal crusade against Forby? it's fucking ridiculous. Get a life, get fucking over it and go fuck yourself, richcapo. Nobody here wants your shitty advice anyway.

[Steven Forbes]

So, just to be clear, you don't like me because why? You bring me up a lot because why?

-Steven

[Steven Forbes]

Oh, okay.

Got it.

And this is the reason why you've decided to take it personally? Why you need to bring me up seemingly at every turn?

Okay. :shrug:

-Steven

[Steven Forbes]

Okay. Dialogue. Talking. Talking is good.

Freelance editor: I work for the individual, not the company. I make no promises to anyone that the work that we do will get published by anyone. That's unrealistic, underhanded, and just plain dirty. What the individual decides to do with their project when we're done is up to them. If they ask, I can guide them to what companies would appreciate their story (if they're asking for project management from me), but I'm not guaranteeing them that the house will pick it up. That's going to be up to the house. Generally, what I'm hired for is to bring the script up to a publishable level.

Major houses headhunt talent. (I can't believe that I'm explaining how comics works to someone who's been on the boards as long as you have been.) How do they headhunt talent? By seeing what they've created, be it webcomics or ashcans or physical comics that they've created. This is, of course, if the creator is also knocking on doors. It's not going to just come to you.

I neither want nor need an agent. I'm not looking to have any ego stroking. I'm trying to tell stories, and help others do the same. In comics, the "legitimacy" you so covet is in actually creating a comic. Do it, and learn the process as you go. Being published by houses major or minor doesn't give you legitimacy or credibility. Having a story that resonates with your public does. There are more than enough examples of creators and creations that didn't go through a major house in order to be considered "legitimate." Want to be in comics? Draw on some typing paper, go down to kinko's, make copies, and pass 'em out. Or put it up on the internet. Bam. You're in. No agent needed.

Why would I want to be represented by an agent to a publishing house that isn't going to be around in ten years? Haven't you heard that Borders, the second biggest chain book store, is in trouble? Sales are down because of the internet. E-book sales are up. This means that Amazon is growing. I can sell books on the Kindle by myself and get to keep the lion's share of the sales, rather than having a publishing house take a cut, as well as an agent.

It's a dying model that you're clinging to, but that's your decision.

I'm still charging for my editing services. Because I can. Because I'm good at it. Because I can help. I'm also doing some of that work for free at Comixtribe.

Any books/stories that I've edited are between me and my clients, or potential clients. Want a list of references? Mark Bertolini. Larime Taylor. Magnus Aspli. John Lees. Lee Lightfoot. Barry Hutchinson. That's six right here on this site alone. (There's more, but I'm at work and running out of time. Sorry if I've forgotten anyone.)

Now, for the record, if I am using the likeness of a character to give information (such as teaching), then that falls under fair use. So does scholarship and research. Lee would have shaped the material so as not to violate copyright.

And yes, I seriously don't know why you take me and what I do so personally, so I need to ask.

So, does that answer all of your questions?

-Steven

[dmh_3000]

Guys, can we get back to the topic at hand? You could always start a new topic in the forum about working out differences or something.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll look into an agent, but I think I might need to have a little bit more success first so they'll see they don't have to start from scratch and will have an idea for who their audience is. And don't worry, Rich, I wasn't planning on handing over any money until I saw results.

Also, how I've set up my numbers is I have a spread sheet for every project I've been involved with, what's it's cost me, how much I've got in return and all that. Then at the bottom I have the total of how much I've spent, how much I've earned and then a total of all the numbers which shows my -$3000.

With Steven's suggestion, I made a second one in which I took out Gemini Storm #2. I also checked my advertising and it's going well for what I'm paying so far (I get 1000 individual hits on Living With Insanity just from spending a dollar for the places I'm using).

[Steven Forbes]

So, basically, you don't like me just because.

That's fine.

You won't let it go.

That's fine, too.

I'm doing my thing. You have your opinion of my thing. That's nice. By now, everyone knows your opinion of my thing. That's great.

All of this, because you don't make comics, and because you have no desire to, you have no idea of what it takes to make it in the field.

I've stopped taking you seriously a little bit ago. We had an amicable online relationship based upon mutual respect. Now, because I've written something you don't like, I'm suddenly someone who doesn't know what they're talking about, I'm shady, and I'm charging people money for something and not placing them within the hallowed halls of DC or Marvel?

I'm your crusade because I'm helping people, and publishing houses aren't biting?

I'm supposed to take you seriously because why, again? You're surely not making comics. I am. My webcomics have been up for a while. One of them has been picked up by a publisher. I have stories coming out in Warmageddon and through Big Dog Ink. You can go buy Fallen Justice at the Red Handed Studios website. I have plans to bring out three series before the year is out. One is in production now, and I have an artist onboard for another. I still have to work through the third. I have a story that I'm working on with an artist for DWP 2.0. I have a website that runs two weekly columns.

I'm in it. I'm doing it. I'm seeing it through.

So, why should I take you seriously?

You don't like me, you're rabid about it, and there's no reason for it. I haven't done anything to you.

Gain some first-hand knowledge about the comic industry. Write and publish a comic book. Then maybe I can start to take you seriously.

Until then, let's just stay in our separate corners. As long as you aren't attacking me or giving blatantly wrong information (because, you know, you're not a published writer, editor, agent, et al--you're just a guy with an opinion, so take everything you say with a grain of salt), I'll politely ignore you, and you can politely ignore me.

But if you reference me, watch your wording. Expressing your opinion as fact can get you into trouble.

Thanks. I'm done.

-Steven

[dmh_3000]

Originally Posted by richcapo

Never, ever hand over money to an agent. Real agents abide by the rules of the AAR, which prohibits receiving money from clients and applicants. Any agent who'll take money from you is a piece of shit.

http://www.sfwa.org/for-authors/writer-beware/
http://pred-ed.com/

If you want to employ the services of a freelance editor before submitting your work to literary agencies, fine, but beware of whom you hire. Make absolutely sure that they have a long list of titles they have worked on that have been sold to major or major independent publishers. Don't simply go with the first "editor" who comes your way and dazzles you with twisted logic and excuses for why nothing they've worked on has ever been published by the big three or the comic imprints of industry giants like Random House.

Also, don't ever sign with an agent who won't represent you until you pay for your document to be edited by them or anyone. Agents charging for editing are in conflict of interest (that's what the industry calls it); those who hand you off to other editors are receiving kickbacks. So if they ask you to pay them or make payments to others, run. A real agent will pay for your work to be edited or will edit it himself, period.

Good luck.

_Richard

Good to know, thanks.

[ChrisMcJunkin]

Originally Posted by dmh_3000

But when I spreadsheet, I realised that taking into account what I've paid artists and spent on advertising, plus what I've earned working on other indie comics and from sales of my own issues, I'm still over $3000 in the negative. I know a lot of writers pour a lot of money into their comics, but I figured I need some perspective.

Am I spending too much and getting too little back, is this the norm or am I actually doing better than some people?

My question is for how long of a time span does this $3000 account for? If you spent $3000 over two years or six months or what and how many issues/projects did you get out of that money? Essentially what did you get for your money? It's hard to say if you're spending too much without knowing how it was spent.

Rich, Steven...mainly Rich though...I think you should take dmh_3000's advice/request and start your own thread. Man, Rich, I know some people that I've had bad dealings with but man you come across with some hard boiled, deep seeded hatred, brother. Not saying that it is or isn't warranted because I ain't jumping into them fires but man, I'm just kind of awed at how you keep losing your shit, finding it momentarily, and then losing it all over again. It's both scary and oddly entertaining at the same time. Simply put, you fascinate me.

[Paul Sanderson]

richcapo: just shut the f!ck up! Take it to pm or email or somewhere else. This isn't the place for your BS!!

And, if you're going to criticise someone for "not being able to write", you had better be perfect in that department yourself. Seeing as you aren't, please reference my first sentence.

[dmh_3000]

Originally Posted by ChrisMcJunkin

My question is for how long of a time span does this $3000 account for? If you spent $3000 over two years or six months or what and how many issues/projects did you get out of that money? Essentially what did you get for your money? It's hard to say if you're spending too much without knowing how it was spent.

I'm counting from December 2008, since the spreadsheet starts with Living With Insanity, so about two years.

The numbers are for both my webcomics and my projects over at indyplanet. With Steven's advice I also took out the projects that never kicked off (Only two that I invested any money in thankfully). The money I'm counting that I've earned include donations from Living With Insanity, plus two flatting jobs and a couple of lettering gigs.

Wow, I just did the recalculations and I'm only $1100 in the negative.