Advice on collaborating

[Circus]

Hey folks,

I'm relatively new to this forum (hi!) and I've recently begun working with an artist on a comic that I'm writing. It's my first venture into any sort of collaborative enterprise and I'm not sure what the standards are for this kind of work in terms of copyright, profit percentages, etc.

I looked at the resources in the sticky thread on creator info, but some of the links were out of date, so I figured I'd pose this to the community. What are your experiences with collaborating? Are there standards for copyright and percentages (in terms of who receives what) in collaborative work? For example, should the writer ask for ownership of the stories, dialogue, and characters if he created them? What's generally considered fair if you're a writer working with a team of artists where the work is divided between penciling, inking, coloring, and lettering?

Sorry if this is old hat to many of you. I'm very interested in hearing what kind of experiences you all have had -- especially in terms of what works, and what doesn't.

[Lee Nordling]

Originally Posted by Circus

Hey folks,

I'm relatively new to this forum (hi!) and I've recently begun working with an artist on a comic that I'm writing. It's my first venture into any sort of collaborative enterprise and I'm not sure what the standards are for this kind of work in terms of copyright, profit percentages, etc.

I looked at the resources in the sticky thread on creator info, but some of the links were out of date, so I figured I'd pose this to the community. What are your experiences with collaborating? Are there standards for copyright and percentages (in terms of who receives what) in collaborative work? For example, should the writer ask for ownership of the stories, dialogue, and characters if he created them? What's generally considered fair if you're a writer working with a team of artists where the work is divided between penciling, inking, coloring, and lettering?

Sorry if this is old hat to many of you. I'm very interested in hearing what kind of experiences you all have had -- especially in terms of what works, and what doesn't.

Rather than us telling you what's fair, why don't you share your thoughts on the topic.

If I say, "Split the rights with your artist 50-50," and somebody else says, "Pay the artist, and make it a buyout," and somebody else says, "Share the money but split the royalties," or whatever, you've got a lot of ways it's done, but none of which are really tailored to your situation.

So, spell out what you think, what, if anything, you have budgeted or what, if anything, you expect, elbow-grease-wise, and you'll be surprised by how easily what you don't have trades off into what every stand-up person realizes needed to be offered as a trade-off, because that's what it is: a trade-off.

Do you believe that you completely created a character before he's drawn? Stan Lee does, and Steve Ditko doesn't. (I'm with Ditko on this.)

Now, my own company's philosophy is that the an intellectual property isn't complete until the first book has been written and drawn. We believe that sequential art is a collaborative medium, and that even though page rates may need to be made as advances to compensate for time spent, creator royalties are 50-50 between the writer and artist. We talked this up a lot, and it's what I breakdown in our deal memo.

But if you believe something else, our deal doesn't work for you...unless you have to explain your position AND the other guy's position at the same time, and if you play devil's advocate well enough, you'll arrive at something that starts to be close to fair (provided you've got the bases covered).

So, share: what do YOU believe a writer and artist should own, or is this a situation where you should "give" away as little as possible?

Do the work here, and you'll be able to explain yourself AND sleep comfortably.

--Lee

[Circus]

Fair enough!

Here's my situation: I wrote several issues of a comic book before finding an artist -- about half the first story arc. I created the characters and setting, did some serious world-building/conceptual/logistical work, and wrote the scripts in full well in advance. I have an artist who is committed to the project, and I think things will work out fine, but I want to protect both of us in the (hopefully unlikely) event that things don't work out down the road (I don't think this will happen; it's just in my nature to be cautious).

I guess my biggest concern is that I'm going to sell myself short as the writer and principal creator. I agree that the artist's depictions of the characters is integral to the characters themselves -- in effect, the artist is collaborating on character design. But where does that line begin and end?

The catch is, he's not the only artist. He's going to be doing pencils and inks, and other artists will be handling coloring and lettering. Granted, this isn't an unusual arrangement -- I just haven't been able to find any contracts that deal with full teams.

Should I be looking at a 30/30/20/20 kind of split? Or a straight 25 across four people? What kinds of arrangements have people used? Frankly, I'm not expecting to make serious money here. It's more the principle of fairness, and wanting to be professional from the start.

Should I bear the copyright for the story, characters, and setting in full? Somehow this doesn't seem entirely right to me.

I guess this is where I'm torn -- it doesn't seem like there's a simple answer, so this is why I'm wondering what has worked and not worked for others in similar situations.

[Babalouie]

I may have missed this but...are you paying the other two artists? That, and the amount you pay them makes a difference. Also, their experience relative to what you are paying them makes a difference. If they are agreeing to work below scale for their work experience, a share in the profits is warranted. Are they working for free? Pure collaboration? Then a straight up share in everything isn't unreasonable. It also sounds like this is a brand new property and they are being instrumental in its development, so they are on the ground floor creating things with you.

On the other hand, if you are paying their standard rate or higher, paying them for concept art, flipping the whole bill yourself, and doing all the leg work, then imho they are contract for hire and you have taken all the risk and deserve all the reward.

There are so many shades of gray depending on what people are putting into the project and getting out of it. I personally give the whole creative team a share in things. However, I have been lucky enough to work with people who are working well below their pay grade so its only fair.

[Hanzou]

As an artist I prefer the pay up front model. Me and my employer agrees on a set dollar amount, I do the work, and we're done.

[NaveenM]

There are no set rules here. Unlike, say film, there are no unions, no real set working arrangement for royalties, ownership, etc. In the end, it comes down to crafting an agreement both you and the artist are comfortable with.

Opinions vary. There are many artists who feel that they are owed ownership because of their time and effort, in addition to upfront payments. Others feel less entitled and will "work for hire".

As a writer/creator, I prefer to own all of the work outright, and find artists who will work for hire. I understand and respect artists who don't agree with that arrangement and want a piece of the property. I just probably wouldn't work with them.

It's up to you and your artist. If you've come up with an idea, created the concept, done the research, written the storylines, conceived of the characters, and now need an artist to put it onto paper, I say YOU own it and you pay your artist their per page rate.

Of course, if you CAN'T pay that rate, then you could offer a piece of the property.

As to inkers, colorists, letterers, etc...as far as I'm aware, they rarely have "created by" credits. It's usually the writer (Warren Ellis with Freakangels), writer and artist (Brian K. Vaughan and Pia Guerra with Y: The Last Man), or writer/artist (Mike Mignola with Hellboy).

Hope that helps some.

[Circus]

This is all incredibly helpful, everyone. Thanks for weighing in!

I've been thinking a lot about it since I posted last and here's what I'm thinking: I think it makes sense to split the credit with me as writer/creator and the penciler/inker as artist, then consider the colorist and letterer as for-hire.

So far it's a labor of love (all of us have day jobs, so we're all new to the industry), but I want to make sure everything is in writing before we submit the pitch. I don't want any surprises or hard feelings down the road.

[HouseStark]

This is what I think. The writer/creator should own the property, but should share a percentage of all revenue, regardless of where it comes from (print, movies, video games, licensing, etc.), with the penciler. Just to clarify, I said share the "revenue" not the "ownership". I'm willing to share the money, but I'd rather retain control over the property. The more people who have "yes" or "no" control over a property, the more complicated things become.

The one thing I'm still pondering is: how do you account for colorists, inkers, and letters? Do you give them a piece of everything as well? Or just the print? Not sure how to handle everyone else yet.

[r nelson]

It sounds to me like this is entirely a "backend" deal.

As such, your artist is effectively doing all the pencils, inks AND design work for free. That, to me, would mean he should own half the rights of the property unless you explicitly agreed beforehand that this was NOT the case.

If you each own half the property, then when you get to hiring a colorist and letterer (who I also assume would be working on "backend" deals), you would then take an even "share" of your and the artists' percentage and dole it out to the colorist and letterer respectively (apologies in advance, as I'm going to go all math-geek on you here).

So, if x = the percentage you intend to pay the colorist and y = the percentage you intend to pay the letterer, then you and the penciller/inker would each receive a percentage (p) denoted as follows:

p = 50 - (x/2 + y/2)

And note that the percentage should arrange in such a way that p > x > y.

- Richard

[Crestmere]

Most of the Hollywood deals now have less money up front and more back end money.