Just a thought

04-10-2009, 02:22 PM

Just an opinion....But how supercool is it that some one of Carys caliber is willing to help out with something like this. Again...just an opinion, but I think its getting bogged down by Cary having to do this drawing 101 stuff, (actually its starting to read like a highschool senior year art class). I would personally grab a handful of capable people from this site to handle teaching and illustrating the super basics ( under Carys guide), and leave the higher level stuff to Cary (ala wizards/ Greg Capullo's krash kourse "Powerful pages fast" series).

To me if I was in art school, i wouldnt need An artist of that caliber to teach me first year stuff, I would want to hear his take on third or fourth year philosophy and technique, cuz thats the money info...I can build a car, but I wana see how Cary puts the rubber to the road, so to speak.

And honestly how long Is Cary gona stay Jazzed about doing this basic stuff? Thres plenty of mid level ppl on this site who will benefit from a higher level "currriculum".

Biofungus · 04-10-2009, 02:43 PM

Keep in mind it was Cary himself that wanted to start with the basics. He felt (and rightly so) that too many people were trying to start 'too far ahead', without mastering (and in some cases, even understanding) the basics. Cary's not starting with the basics because he has to, he's doing it because he wants to. And frankly, even if he started separate lessons for more advanced artists, I guarantee you a bunch of people who should be paying special attention to the basic lessons, would assume they were advanced enough for the intermediate stuff.

So in essence, I'm glad Cary is starting at the beginning and not jumping around, because even the more established artists could use a refresher

(and yes, Cary, I did order the templates because of that second lesson :embarrassed: )

and thank you again, Cary, for doing this!

BKMDog · 04-10-2009, 02:44 PM

As just a casual reader of these threads, I find all levels of discussion and the tutorials, extremely informative. Be they basic or otherwise. Sure, I've been a pro for almost 25 years but I still learned some really great finer points from Cary's post on how to draw the head that solidified stuff I'd known for years. It was a real refresher when I saw it set down as articulately as Cary had done it. Without being too pretentious, it renewed me and I thought to myself: "Right, right, right - that's what that was about. That's the meat of why I started to draw and do it for a living in the first place." It sharpened me up and refocused me. How great is that for "basic stuff"?

Now, that epiphany was probably just me, but it's my feeling that the basics can never be taught enough or reviewed enough. 'Cuz you begin every drawing with the basics and then move on to more advanced technique / methods depending on the needs of the piece. Practicing those basics again and again helps speed the drawing process because they become more familiar with repetition and thus, you can make your decisions about drawing faster as well.

John Rauch · 04-10-2009, 02:51 PM

I have a slight issue when students tell teachers how they want to be taught. More often than not, the "easy" lessons everyone thinks they know are the ones actually holding them back and I think it's awesome that Cary volunteered to do this. If anyone else has some nugget they'd like to impart, I don't see how what Cary is doing what keep them from it.

kingbyron · 04-10-2009, 03:28 PM

I'm with John. I used to always skip ahead and learn the bits that I wanted to learn, without actually learning the how's and the why's. In my opinion, if Cary started giving out more advanced tips, those that 'think' they have a handle on things will skip the basics and never really learn.

I also think that its cool to watch these threads develop in real time. If Cary keeps going he could have a premade book eventually.

**carynord** · 04-10-2009, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Rauch

More often than not, the "easy" lessons everyone thinks they know are the ones actually holding them back

This is exactly what I'm talking about and exactly where I think so many amateurs fail. This is also why I'm so disappointed with the number of people actually doing the exercises. As BKMDog said, you can never go over the basics too much. I had to pull out my books just to make sure I was doing everything right because some of this gets tricky.

Doing the exercises will force you to solve your own problems and if you can't, then there's a few people here that can teach you.

**carynord** · 04-10-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al

Just an opinion....But how supercool is it that some one of Carys caliber is willing to help out with something like this. Again...just an opinion, but I think its getting bogged down by Cary having to do this drawing 101 stuff, (actually its starting to read like a highschool senior year art class). I would personally grab a handful of capable people from this site to handle teaching and illustrating the super basics ( under Carys guide), and leave the higher level stuff to Cary (ala wizards/ Greg Capullo's krash kourse "Powerful pages fast" series).

I hear what you're saying, Al. The thing is, all of this info ties into whatever techniques and philosophies I have. I noticed that with the first exercise (the street scene in 1 point) there were a million (well, a dozen) different techniques and rules that weren't getting addressed because the scope was too big. That's why I did the window frame exercise; just so we could focus in on a few of the finer points.

Quote:

And honestly how long Is Cary gona stay Jazzed about doing this basic stuff? Thres plenty of mid level ppl on this site who will benefit from a higher level "currriculum".

Haha. I like this stuff. I love perspective because it's so logical and satisfying. There is a rule for everything and it really makes a background sing. I won't lose interest in the actual drawing, but I'd love to see more participation. This stuffs been up for 3 weeks now and maybe 10 people have tried it.

BobRivard · 04-10-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carynord

This is also why I'm so disappointed with the number of people actually doing the exercises.

Don't be too disappointed. I'm sure more people are doing these than you think and just not posting their work. Even if somebody is just reading your threads and not doing the work, at least it might get them thinking in the right direction.

Justice41 · 04-10-2009, 04:13 PM

I betcha some are too embarrassed to post as they now see they really don't know what they thought they knew. Don't be folks, just post the art and never worry about embarrassment. One time I was tongue tied while getting on the bus to go to Manhattan and the bus driver told me, "Son a closed mouth does not get fed". This applies to anything you want or need to learn.
Then again I may have scared a few folks off.

ponyrl · 04-10-2009, 04:47 PM

I've my own lessons going. Also my intend with my art is different than the dominant here as Cary knows.

I draw from two books right now:

Force: Dynamic Life Drawing for Animators, authored by Michael D. Mattesi

&

Atlas of Human Anatomy for the Artist
by Stephen R Peck

&

Will Esners Sketchbook (he also did a 3 book teaching guides which should be arriving soon) to learn the figure's motion.

I'm also taking a class in august at the Grand academy of art in manhattan that focuses on figure drawing.

In the meantime,I practice the basics, lighting, perspective, correct anatomy, etc.

From what I see posted in the art section, a lot of the posters should get in on what cary is doing here, even the main stays who've developed a stylistic form of art.

Even in a stylistic art, the foundation has to be known, or the limitation of that artist will become more noticable to people as time goes.

Nick Pitarra · 04-11-2009, 11:04 AM

I think the lessons are great(I'm one of those guys who's started all of them but not posted)...and agree with John when he says people skip the basics and thats their downfall. I'm an art education major and I had to go through all of the basic and second level art courses at the University of Houston...and I'd say 90% of the kids didn't know basic drawing. They could look at a picture and paint a house with the right colors, but they didn't understand its basic structure...they didn't see the shapes under things, and were/are extremely lost when dealing with perspective.

Anyways...my only crit of Carry's forum/threads is the lack of assignment #'s. Like a label Assignment #3 16 panel window frame. Just so I can keep organized and know what I need to get done next. I wasn't sure if the window assignment was an assignment or technique you were showing us. Anyways...thats more organization on my end, but it would make it easiar to someone new to that forum on DW, or easiar for unorganized hacks like me.

I also think Justice and others coming into help is/would be great. I know it's a pain to write crits sometimes...and I know Cary is busy. I think if people can help or spot something that would definitely help out, then they should do so. Of course Cary can be the overlord and have final say since this is his baby (plus he pretty much has to respond to everyone b/c we all know we want to know what Cary thinks of our stuff, you always want to know what the teacher thinks...not so much the kid next to you). But when I first saw Cary ask if we'd be interested in this, I was thinking it would be a huge undertaking for him. A lot of these assignments do have a right and wrong answer since they are based on fundamental rules in/of drawing, so if people can help out I think they should.

And lastly...I think it's very cool of both Cary and John to do these assignments...it's such a great oppurtunity to have the help of established professionals at arms length...(and for free). Thanks guys!

~nick

j giar · 04-11-2009, 11:18 AM

I've been silent since Cary started the thread...but I am planning on posting mine as well....In fact I purposely searched for a more difficult example of perspective so I can try it and post it to get help in one of many areas I can use a refresher in....along with facial construction.....drapery....lights and darks.....blah..blah..blah

....and yeah it's super cool that I get lessons from the guy who did one of my favorite runs on DD.

04-13-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carynord

This is exactly what I'm talking about and exactly where I think so many amateurs fail. This is also why I'm so disappointed with the number of people actually doing the exercises. As BKMDog said, you can never go over the basics too much. I had to pull out my books just to make sure I was doing everything right because some of this gets tricky.

Doing the exercises will force you to solve your own problems and if you can't, then there's a few people here that can teach you.

I totally agree, I think its a fundamental necessity to master this stuff and review it and practice it endlessly. But to me youre kinda catering to the lowest skill level thats present on this site. Which is totally fine, cuz everyone needs to learn, but what about the guys who are pretty good with this stuff already, and want the extra boost? should they get left behind solely because they already have the motivation and discipline to get that good already? theres nothing in this curriculum to help them out really yet.

Honestly thats why your getting little participation, because first year art students are the most unruly, unfocused, unmotivated bunch there is lol, and weve all been there. Hey I have an art degree from columbia in chicago, and spend alot of time with art teachers and comic pros, was taught one on one by a teacher from the kubert school, who was doing a 20 issue run on daredevil at the time... so Im fortunate to have available a wealth of knowledge in art lesssons/ theory firsthand, I just happen to love carys art, and Johns colors, now that Ive seen his stuff, but dont really get the structure of your art school.....I mean does joe kubert teach perspective 101? does Michael jordan teach college talent how to dribble? Or do they set up a kick ass team around them so lessons can be told on all different levels at the same time? . . . thats all im tryin to say.

Stay cool ! Yall make really good points!

04-13-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Rauch

I have a slight issue when students tell teachers how they want to be taught. More often than not, the "easy" lessons everyone thinks they know are the ones actually holding them back and I think it's awesome that Cary volunteered to do this. If anyone else has some nugget they'd like to impart, I don't see how what Cary is doing what keep them from it.

I would tend to agree with you, if this was an actual art school/ program. But its not. Im not telling anyone how to do anythin, man, Im simply saying theres 10 different levels of art student standing at your door, and your only catering to the ones who show a lack of very basic skill....They need help the most, ok, ok...maybe the fact that Cary Nord is teaching perspective or how to draw a window, means they will buckle down and actually learn it...maybe not...are you seeing alot of feedback? if the desire was that great in them they would pick up a hogarth or loomis book and actually read the damn thing and learn it...like most of us do. I dont think Cary is keepin anyone from doin anything, like I said u guys rock for this undertaking, I would hate to see you get sick of it and quit

Justice41 · 04-13-2009, 01:38 PM

If you believe all here know all then they would never have chimed in about needing the help. You'd be surprised what you don't know that you thought you knew but didn't have idea one that you didn't know. Sometimes a simple exercise will reveal just how little you do know. Just because you think you run like a gazelle really doesn't mean you do. Sit tight Cary will get to your lofty levels soon enough and if you're too impatient then you may miss the real lesson being taught, which is to never think you know. You either do or you don't.

04-10-2009, 02:22 PM	#1
Al Guest Posts: n/a	Just a thought Just an opinion....But how supercool is it that some one of Carys caliber is willing to help out with something like this. Again...just an opinion, but I think its getting bogged down by Cary having to do this drawing 101 stuff, (actually its starting to read like a highschool senior year art class). I would personally grab a handful of capable people from this site to handle teaching and illustrating the super basics ( under Carys guide), and leave the higher level stuff to Cary (ala wizards/ Greg Capullo's krash kourse "Powerful pages fast" series). To me if I was in art school, i wouldnt need An artist of that caliber to teach me first year stuff, I would want to hear his take on third or fourth year philosophy and technique, cuz thats the money info...I can build a car, but I wana see how Cary puts the rubber to the road, so to speak. And honestly how long Is Cary gona stay Jazzed about doing this basic stuff? Thres plenty of mid level ppl on this site who will benefit from a higher level "currriculum".

04-10-2009, 04:47 PM	#10
ponyrl A True Omen Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New York Posts: 5,297	I've my own lessons going. Also my intend with my art is different than the dominant here as Cary knows. I draw from two books right now: Force: Dynamic Life Drawing for Animators, authored by Michael D. Mattesi & Atlas of Human Anatomy for the Artist by Stephen R Peck & Will Esners Sketchbook (he also did a 3 book teaching guides which should be arriving soon) to learn the figure's motion. I'm also taking a class in august at the Grand academy of art in manhattan that focuses on figure drawing. In the meantime,I practice the basics, lighting, perspective, correct anatomy, etc. From what I see posted in the art section, a lot of the posters should get in on what cary is doing here, even the main stays who've developed a stylistic form of art. Even in a stylistic art, the foundation has to be known, or the limitation of that artist will become more noticable to people as time goes. Last edited by ponyrl; 04-13-2009 at 02:34 AM.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

04-10-2009, 02:43 PM	#2
Biofungus Not for your amusement Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Nega-Earth Posts: 22,083	Keep in mind it was Cary himself that wanted to start with the basics. He felt (and rightly so) that too many people were trying to start 'too far ahead', without mastering (and in some cases, even understanding) the basics. Cary's not starting with the basics because he has to, he's doing it because he wants to. And frankly, even if he started separate lessons for more advanced artists, I guarantee you a bunch of people who should be paying special attention to the basic lessons, would assume they were advanced enough for the intermediate stuff. So in essence, I'm glad Cary is starting at the beginning and not jumping around, because even the more established artists could use a refresher (and yes, Cary, I did order the templates because of that second lesson :embarrassed: ) and thank you again, Cary, for doing this!

04-10-2009, 02:44 PM	#3
BKMDog Registered Trademark Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,242	As just a casual reader of these threads, I find all levels of discussion and the tutorials, extremely informative. Be they basic or otherwise. Sure, I've been a pro for almost 25 years but I still learned some really great finer points from Cary's post on how to draw the head that solidified stuff I'd known for years. It was a real refresher when I saw it set down as articulately as Cary had done it. Without being too pretentious, it renewed me and I thought to myself: "Right, right, right - that's what that was about. That's the meat of why I started to draw and do it for a living in the first place." It sharpened me up and refocused me. How great is that for "basic stuff"? Now, that epiphany was probably just me, but it's my feeling that the basics can never be taught enough or reviewed enough. 'Cuz you begin every drawing with the basics and then move on to more advanced technique / methods depending on the needs of the piece. Practicing those basics again and again helps speed the drawing process because they become more familiar with repetition and thus, you can make your decisions about drawing faster as well. Last edited by BKMDog; 04-11-2009 at 08:50 AM.

04-10-2009, 02:51 PM	#4
John Rauch The problem with comics. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Decatur, Illinois Posts: 737	I have a slight issue when students tell teachers how they want to be taught. More often than not, the "easy" lessons everyone thinks they know are the ones actually holding them back and I think it's awesome that Cary volunteered to do this. If anyone else has some nugget they'd like to impart, I don't see how what Cary is doing what keep them from it.

04-10-2009, 03:28 PM	#5
kingbyron extracrispy Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: the temple of the dog Posts: 191	I'm with John. I used to always skip ahead and learn the bits that I wanted to learn, without actually learning the how's and the why's. In my opinion, if Cary started giving out more advanced tips, those that 'think' they have a handle on things will skip the basics and never really learn. I also think that its cool to watch these threads develop in real time. If Cary keeps going he could have a premade book eventually.

04-10-2009, 04:13 PM	#9
Justice41 Piss Off Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 9,369	I betcha some are too embarrassed to post as they now see they really don't know what they thought they knew. Don't be folks, just post the art and never worry about embarrassment. One time I was tongue tied while getting on the bus to go to Manhattan and the bus driver told me, "Son a closed mouth does not get fed". This applies to anything you want or need to learn. Then again I may have scared a few folks off.

04-11-2009, 11:04 AM	#11
Nick Pitarra Illustrator Extraordinair Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS-The Best Damn Country in the United States Posts: 1,277	I think the lessons are great(I'm one of those guys who's started all of them but not posted)...and agree with John when he says people skip the basics and thats their downfall. I'm an art education major and I had to go through all of the basic and second level art courses at the University of Houston...and I'd say 90% of the kids didn't know basic drawing. They could look at a picture and paint a house with the right colors, but they didn't understand its basic structure...they didn't see the shapes under things, and were/are extremely lost when dealing with perspective. Anyways...my only crit of Carry's forum/threads is the lack of assignment #'s. Like a label Assignment #3 16 panel window frame. Just so I can keep organized and know what I need to get done next. I wasn't sure if the window assignment was an assignment or technique you were showing us. Anyways...thats more organization on my end, but it would make it easiar to someone new to that forum on DW, or easiar for unorganized hacks like me. I also think Justice and others coming into help is/would be great. I know it's a pain to write crits sometimes...and I know Cary is busy. I think if people can help or spot something that would definitely help out, then they should do so. Of course Cary can be the overlord and have final say since this is his baby (plus he pretty much has to respond to everyone b/c we all know we want to know what Cary thinks of our stuff, you always want to know what the teacher thinks...not so much the kid next to you). But when I first saw Cary ask if we'd be interested in this, I was thinking it would be a huge undertaking for him. A lot of these assignments do have a right and wrong answer since they are based on fundamental rules in/of drawing, so if people can help out I think they should. And lastly...I think it's very cool of both Cary and John to do these assignments...it's such a great oppurtunity to have the help of established professionals at arms length...(and for free). Thanks guys! ~nick

04-11-2009, 11:18 AM	#12
j giar Has nothing to add. Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Elyria, Ohio Posts: 5,968	I've been silent since Cary started the thread...but I am planning on posting mine as well....In fact I purposely searched for a more difficult example of perspective so I can try it and post it to get help in one of many areas I can use a refresher in....along with facial construction.....drapery....lights and darks.....blah..blah..blah ....and yeah it's super cool that I get lessons from the guy who did one of my favorite runs on DD.

04-13-2009, 01:38 PM	#15
Justice41 Piss Off Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 9,369	If you believe all here know all then they would never have chimed in about needing the help. You'd be surprised what you don't know that you thought you knew but didn't have idea one that you didn't know. Sometimes a simple exercise will reveal just how little you do know. Just because you think you run like a gazelle really doesn't mean you do. Sit tight Cary will get to your lofty levels soon enough and if you're too impatient then you may miss the real lesson being taught, which is to never think you know. You either do or you don't.