Another good column to keep an eye on

[carynord]

It's not the editor's job to teach anyone how to draw or write; that burden falls on the creators shoulders. All the editor has to decide is whether or not it's good enough to be printed. For a novice artist/writer, anyone with any kind of experience at all in this industry is someone worth listening to.

I hear the ego trip complaints and I agree that there is a difference, but in my mind, if you want in the door, that's the kind of crap you have to put up with from time to time. So what if someone is getting off on his self importance? If they're taking the time to teach you something, take what you can from it.
Ever try to talk to a really hot girl and she tells you to get lost? Well, that's just because hot girls get approached by guys all day long. They can't talk to them all, they can't date them all, they have the luxury of being total bitches because the stream of applicants is unending so to talk to them you have to get past their shit tests. I'm not saying it's necessarily right, but it is how it is. You gotta jump through a few hoops. Same with comics. There's only so many positions available, no one is going to give someone a job because they feel sorry for them, they'll give you a job because they're the best man for it.

Scribbly, sorry for sounding condescending, I just caution against that mentality because I can't see how it helps anyone get in the door. If you're an established professional, which it sounds like you are, then you don't have to put up with it because you can go somewhere else and still find work. If you're an amateur with hopes of breaking in, do not try to turn the tables on someone who can offer you a job. Chances are, they don't need you as much as you need them.

[maverick]

Originally Posted by Scribbly

And who can say that the author of this column is not a mediocre himself ?
What are his relevant artistic creations?
Because his is an Editor he can judge and criticize everyone. So what?
I will like to see see his writing or drawing skills at first, and then keep note of his opinions according to that.
He should be grateful for all those delusional amateurs, because they are the people who are paying and feeding him and the comic industry.

Holy bitter, Batman.

One does not have to be a ultra-skilled writer or artist to be able to give a fair critique or to be an editor.

If you went out to a restaurant and didn't like the steak, do you think the chef would storm out and demand to see your skills and have you cook one yourself?

No.

[Steven Forbes]

Wow.

I think I've just been called delusional, egotistical and self-important. I know I've just been called elitist and preachy. I think it was hinted that I'm on a power trip, as well, without really wanting to see someone get better.

Then, I was compared to Lee.

Thanks?

Let's see. I do freely give my time when I do critiques. Lee doesn't do critiques. Not really. He may go over a particularly interesting panel or three, but doing them is time consuming. He has better things to do with his time. Things he gets paid for.

For my part, there are times when I feel like doing crits, and times when I don't. There are also times when I'm asked to.

Elitist? If that entails wanting writers to at least have a basic understanding of how the English language works, then so be it. If I come off as preachy, that may be because I'm trying to make myself understood plainly.

However, I fail to see where I'm delusional, egotistical, or on a power trip. I freelance, so I can't give anyone a job. My column is there to help newer writers. I want to see them get better, not "do it my way because I said so." People either listen, or they don't.

You don't care for my tone at times. I can understand and appreciate that. I'm not everyone's cup of tea. But please don't mistake my passion for the form and a true desire to help as being on a power trip. If that were the case, I'd comment on everything, everywhere, just to hear myself talk. I'm still learning and striving to be better, just like everyone else.

Thanks.

-Steven Forbes

[Scribbly]

Originally Posted by carynord

Scribbly, sorry for sounding condescending, I just caution against that mentality because I can't see how it helps anyone get in the door. If you're an established professional, which it sounds like you are, then you don't have to put up with it because you can go somewhere else and still find work. If you're an amateur with hopes of breaking in, do not try to turn the tables on someone who can offer you a job. Chances are, they don't need you as much as you need them.

Taken, not problem.
And not all editors are the same.
But an editor who's mocking the aspiring artists and calling them for retarded or sort of it, is an improper thing to do, not matter who important he is. Just that.

With the right guidance and direction artists can improve very fast.
That is a fact.
That's why Art Directors should be the ones doing the address and review for the aspiring artists, not the editors.

Editors can see only what is in the paper, and not further.

An aspiring artist, is will and talent in development.
Not worth of be underestimated.

And the Art Director and the Editor are different functions with differents needs.
And that's why the Editors should work only with the aproved artists.
Then, they can give to those "selected artists" all the job offers they are able to do. IMO.

[maverick]

Scrib, I'm sorry, but it's painfully apparent you don't have a clue what an editor's job is. Or for that matter, how publishing companies function or how the publishing process works. Best to just shut up now and let it go.

[Scribbly]

Originally Posted by maverick

Scrib, I'm sorry, but it's painfully apparent you don't have a clue what an editor's job is. Or for that matter, how publishing companies function or how the publishing process works. Best to just shut up now and let it go.

I gave my opinion about it.
A very respectful one.
Also what I think of people who are not respectful of aspiring artists.
With those people criteria, names as Frank Miller or many others who are now famous would never existed.

But I don't know what is your opinion.
So, what are you defending and why are you shutting up people?
Peace.

[Aaron Hübrich]

If we're talking comic book context here, there are no art directors on books. The editor typically takes on that role and offers direction and styling cues to the artist - along with the writer. The editor will supply needed feedback so that the book as a whole reads better. The editor, in a way, is the liaison to the reader.

In regards to self evaluation for an artist, that is the toughest thing to do. If you don't look back at art you did 6 months, 1 year, or 2 years ago and not see obvious improvements, then you're not growing in my opinion. That's the wonderful thing about art...you can always get better.

It's not an editor's job to help you grow. It's their job to put out the best book they can with your help. As an artist, you were hired based on what you can do - not on your potential. So if you happen to get advice along the way, then that's a good thing. Set aside ego and don't take things personally - just keep growing, submitting and networking.

As with any industry where you can easily be compared, do something that will set you apart. Guitar players are a dime a dozen, but what it does is push those and separate out the best of the best. The same can be said for artists. Don't settle for average, or even really good. Do whatever you can to help you get noticed and keep getting better. Be that person you see at the conventions all the time. Be the guy you see at the after parties all the time. Be "out there" all the time to give people a shot at seeing your work.

Good luck.

[kdmelrose]

Originally Posted by Scribbly

With the right guidance and direction artists can improve very fast.
That is a fact.
That's why Art Directors should be the ones doing the address and review for the aspiring artists, not the editors.

Editors can see only what is in the paper, and not further.

An aspiring artist, is will and talent in development.
Not worth of be underestimated.

And the Art Director and the Editor are different functions with differents needs.
And that's why the Editors should work only with the aproved artists.
Then, they can give to those "selected artists" all the job offers they are able to do. IMO.

The art director as mentor is great, in theory, but it doesn't reflect the realities of the comics industry. (Your comments also imply that an editor, apparently by definition, doesn't have an understanding of art.) A lot of publishers don't have an art director. Some may have someone with that title, but his/her duties are more design-oriented, or deal primarily with covers.

At DC, the late Neal Pozner had a wonderful reputation for grooming "new" artists when he was creative director. Now Mark Chiarello is editorial art director, but I don't know how much he actually "develops" aspiring artists. And the person at Marvel largely responsible for discovering new artists is C.B. Cebulski, a writer/editor who became the company's talent coordinator.

[carynord]

Forby, my comments weren't directed at you just so you know. I'm talking from a general point of view.

Scribbly, again, it's not up to any comic book company to teach an artist/writer how to do their job. The creator is supposed to understand and meet the basic requirements of the job they're applying for. IF an editor sees potential and CHOOSES to work with that artist, then that's totally up to the editor. He doesn't owe anybody anything. He also does not have to prove himself --he already has a job.
Comic companies have no shortage of capable applicants so why would they waste time and money teaching someone when they can just pick someone who's already qualified?

My main objection is to the comic book hopefuls out there who want the job, but are quick to turn the critical eye on everyone else but themselves. "I didn't get in because the editor was an asshole," is a really poor excuse. The editor may be the biggest asshole the world has ever seen but, believe me, if you can sell his books, he'll give you a job... and the chances are he's probably not as big an asshole as you think he is.

That article was intended to be a little taste of reality and apparently people don't like the taste. Good. That just weens out the ones with weak constitutions. The guys that take this to heart will be the ones creating tomorrows comics.

[kdmelrose]

Originally Posted by carynord

My main objection is to the comic book hopefuls out there who want the job, but are quick to turn the critical eye on everyone else but themselves. "I didn't get in because the editor was an asshole," is a really poor excuse. The editor may be the biggest asshole the world has ever seen but, believe me, if you can sell his books, he'll give you a job... and the chances are he's probably not as big an asshole as you think he is.

Excellent!

[Scribbly]

Originally Posted by carynord

Forby, my comments weren't directed at you just so you know. I'm talking from a general point of view.

Scribbly, again, it's not up to any comic book company to teach an artist/writer how to do their job. The creator is supposed to understand and meet the basic requirements of the job they're applying for. IF an editor sees potential and CHOOSES to work with that artist, then that's totally up to the editor. He doesn't owe anybody anything. He also does not have to prove himself --he already has a job.
Comic companies have no shortage of capable applicants so why would they waste time and money teaching someone when they can just pick someone who's already qualified?

My main objection is to the comic book hopefuls out there who want the job, but are quick to turn the critical eye on everyone else but themselves. "I didn't get in because the editor was an asshole," is a really poor excuse. The editor may be the biggest asshole the world has ever seen but, believe me, if you can sell his books, he'll give you a job... and the chances are he's probably not as big an asshole as you think he is.

That article was intended to be a little taste of reality and apparently people don't like the taste. Good. That just weens out the ones with weak constitutions. The guys that take this to heart will be the ones creating tomorrows comics.

Excellent indeed.

[Aaron Hübrich]

Originally Posted by carynord

if you can sell his books, he'll give you a job... and the chances are he's probably not as big an asshole as you think he is.

Excellent point.

[carynord]

Originally Posted by kdmelrose

At DC, the late Neal Pozner had a wonderful reputation for grooming "new" artists when he was creative director. Now Mark Chiarello is editorial art director, but I don't know how much he actually "develops" aspiring artists. And the person at Marvel largely responsible for discovering new artists is C.B. Cebulski, a writer/editor who became the company's talent coordinator.

Neal was the guy that gave me my first break! And he was the first of many that busted my pathetic little ego, not to mention, my balls. He sent every page I sent him back to me with revisions until I got it right. I swear I drew that entire comic 3 times over, but as much as I hated him at the time, he's the reason I was able to get another job (at another company because he never called me back with more work).

My ego has been slapped down many times since by many people that I wouldn't have assumed knew anything about art or storytelling or what it takes to sell a book. That's why I say LISTEN to any advice anyone has to offer, even if you have no immediate use for it; file it away.

[kdmelrose]

For further sobering news, here are a few recent comments made by Marvel's C.B. Cebulski on Twitter:

"Disturbing but eye-opening fact: No writer or artist has been hired through a cold submission mailed into Marvel in recent memory."

"Upon intense review, we discovered that almost all new talent hired by Marvel over the past five years has come through 'word-of-mouth.'"

"We've put A LOT of thought into our talent discovery and hiring processes recently. We WANT to find more talent. It's in our best interest. ... But sometimes this old adage is still the most apt: 'The best way to get published by Marvel and DC is to get published elsewhere first.'"

"We've determined how most of our new talent, both writers and artists, have been discovered and will be focusing on those aspects."

He also says that Marvel is revising its submissions guidelines (possibly by the end of this week?) that "are only going to make breaking in that much harder."

[jimmybott]

Firstly I'd like to apologise to Steven Forbes for my post this morning. Reading it back tonight it was too personal of an attack. For which I am sorry. I'm sure you are an assett to the community. Though I stand by my opinion, I shouldn't have aired it so freely. I hope you will accept my sincerest apologies.

Originally Posted by kdmelrose

the person at Marvel largely responsible for discovering new artists is C.B. Cebulski, a writer/editor who became the company's talent coordinator.

CB Cebulski has gone back to mostly writing I believe, he still has some input on new talent. But Chris Allo is now the guy in the talent co-ordinator role, unless it's changed again.

Originally Posted by carynord

"I hear the ego trip complaints and I agree that there is a difference, but in my mind, if you want in the door, that's the kind of crap you have to put up with from time to time".

I agree, personally I think it's a bit different taking constructive advice from someone being a bit of an arse who could possibly give you work at Oni, Darkhorse, Wildstorm or a half decent paying gig in general than it is taking it from a small press editor where in some cases, you'd be doing them a favor if they gave you work. Working for little or free in a lot of cases. It's not what they are saying, whether it's praise or criticism, but the whole conversation seems tainted with their own ego and self importance. You know what I mean?

95% of the people I've met in the comics industry have been great people to know. But there are some, who I'll obviously not name in public, I'd happily take a power drill to their knee caps. As you said, most of the time you just grit your teeth, extract what useful advice you can get.

Interesting thread.