Hanyouyomi

Well I managed to finish Princess Of The Damned:Boogie Hunter on Halloween Morning around 10 a.m. because I stayed up until 1:00 a.m. the night before cramming to finish the final fight between The Boogieman and Boogie Girl, thus allowing me to finish the last bit on Halloween Morning. And I'm pretty sure many of you read in my thread in the chit-chat forum how I lamented it seemed to going down the same road as Jeph Loeb's run on HULK... But I think I managed to save it probably Here are the last four pages.

Now critiques.. Do what you do best... DESTROY IT!

Go ahead and inform me of how bad the artwork is, or how you're not fans of a story that wields cliché material of demons, and humans with special abilities. Just go ahead, and berate the whole thing with opinions that are meaningless, and unprofessional. I'm practically expecting it anyway.

Bread

I'd rate this thread a 1 out of 10.

If your plan is to sit back and LOL while people crit your worthless story, which you must know is terrible, it's usually a smart policy to keep those plans to yourself.



I'm guessing you posted a real script up here before and it was torn to shreds.

I can see why this would have left you bitter, but writing and drawing a horrible comic on a series of napkins is the wrong decision.

It is my sincere hope that you're better at scripting than you are at trolling. Unfortunately, if this is not the case, you should probably find a new forum.

Sweet stains on the last page, by the way.

Yojimbo

Wow, this is ME who's about to say all this.

I think all of us are a little too quick to insult each other on here. I mean, one of the biggest themes I've had in arguments with folks on this forum is the difference between thick-skinned, big-boy critiques and just taking a cheap shot at someone.

Have I told people that some of the stuff they've posted on here sucks? Hell yeah. Did it really suck? That depends on who you ask, but for the most part I'd say yeah, and I spend the time to tell someone why I think it sucks (some people characterize this as "ranting" ). Have I ever told someone on here that, based on their work, they personally suck? No.

I've told them that based on how they respond to criticism

Regardless, we're all here to help each other. Some of us need more help than others. If someone's stuff seems incomprehensively bad to you, be thankful that you've got the talent and accumulated the experience to see it.

In the spirit of that philosophy, let me critique Hanyouyomi...

Yeah, dude. I hate to say it but this really does suck. Here's what's wrong with it:

1) Story. Granted, I don't have the background of the story leading up to this, so I'm at a disadvantage to judge your final crescendo, but knowing it's the final crescendo I can give it some general marks. Your dialogue is very simple and obvious. Simple in that it's not grammatically correct in a lot of places, and your sentence structure isn't conversational at all. Without meaning this as an insult at all, it looks like it was written on a junior-high school level. Next up is the flow between panels. There are moments where I think I've missed something in the story as the characters talk, like someone said something important and I didn't hear it. Finally, and these are the two most important parts; I don't care about your characters and your themes are too obvious. When it comes to not "caring" about your characters, I don't mean it in a derogatory way. I mean it in a Robert McKee way. You need to get his book, titled "Story". It's the best tool you'll ever have as a writer. That and a copy of "The Hero With A Thousand Faces" by Joseph Campbell should be the two things sitting on your desk as you write any time. Follow their guidance, and you'll succeed in writing strong characters. As for your situation here, you hit the nail on the head already. Again, I haven't seen the whole story, but at one glance I see what should be archetypal characters in an allegorical battle representing crucial themes to humanity, but instead it's been turned into stereotypical characters in an over-dialogued battle clearly stating and thus watering down crucial themes into a story that feels like leftovers that Hideo Kojima left in the microwave too long. Don't get me wrong, sometimes you have to boil your story down in the finale, but you've overcooked this one. Look at what your protaganist is actually saying in the end. "I've become stronger". "I've strengthened my resolve". If your story didn't tell us that in the however-many-pages leading up to this, then stating it now isn't going to help you.

Story is about CHANGE. We should have seen her make this change by now. I don't need the demon and the girl giving me a play-by-play of the last umpteen issues. If I'm reading your finale, odds are I picked up on this thing along the way.

2) Your art. I'm assuming this is just you as a writer wanting to see your creations shuffle about the page. I sketch sometimes myself, just to have a visual of my character and make it easier to "see" him do the things I have him do. If your stuff here is meant as anything more than that... you need to stick to your writing.

I'm not sure of your age, so I don't want to be too critical. I'd say if you're between 5th and 9th grade, you've got a pretty good product there that you should continue to refine through study, practice, course-work, and reading for inspiration. This doesn't mean doing "research" in the Pop-Manga section at Borders. Read some mythology. Read McKee. Attend a seminar. Keep a journal and LISTEN to dialogue in television shows. I recommend watching shows you don't like, so as to stay focussed on the dialogue itself. Remember, actors don't just make their lines up. Most of the time, they're written that way WORD for WORD.

Good luck,
Yojimbo

BenelGermosen

That's no way to act.

Bread

Hanyouyomi sucks because of this statement, not because of his work. This forum is to help people improve. You can't write off your peers as being unprofessional with worthless opinions (while asking for those opinions) and have expectations that you'll get anything but venom in return.

Good on you for giving him the time of day, though.

Forby

I think you should get together with Pimpzilla.

But that thought aside, I saw that you want to submit this to Dark Horse? You may get a response after they finish laughing, just because of the amusement factor.

Follow everything Yojimbo has said, and I also suggest you get another few books: Understanding Comics, Will Eisner's Visual Storytelling, and Graphic Novels for Dummies.

I also suggest you check out my column. Honestly, everything anyone tells you as a critique can only help you.

But yeah, that was bad. It goes to show that anyone can get a "webcomic" up at Drunk Duck, no matter how poor the art (you drew on both sides of the page, and there was bleedthrough, not to mention the artwork itself is truly childish--personally, I hope you're still in grade school, about 7th grade), or how bad the dialogue.

Study the medium. It can only help.

-Steven

Yojimbo

Forby,

Read through your column. It's good fundamental stuff for the Hanyouyomi's of this world. However, we all know that there are several, equally good columns on the fundamentals of comics and everyone from Kubert to Eisner have put out books on the basics. The aforementioned personalities involved bring me to a question...

How many Hanyouyomi's are out there, and why aren't the Kuberts and the Eisners putting out the next step?

To wit, I thought that most of us here had a firm grasp on the fundamentals, and now we had all conglomerated on this transcendental nexus to commiserate on the nuances of the craft.

I have been told that I "write some really good stuff". Of course, I take compliments extremely lightly, and have also been told that I "underrate myself". I consider this keeping myself grounded. Then again, I hear how many rejections people get, and Hanyouyomi isn't the first guy I've seen to put out some stuff like what he's put out. That said, if you can write a story with a cohesive and coherent beginning, middle, and end, in which a protagonist meets against an antagonistic persona or force, makes a decision, changes in a fundamental way, and then faces consequences of choices, does that mean you're in some top bracket of writers? Are there that few people who can at least do that much and so many who can't?

We all know Bendis, Miller, Vaughan, and Strazcynski to be among the top one percent of writers out there. Are we on a bell curve, though, or perhaps a downhill gradient?

Your perceptions?

PIMPZILLA

Heeeeeeeeey! I actually want critiques on the stuff I post, not criticism.



Personally, I think you should get together with Kid Intense.His dedication to the medium is almost as high as yours.

Forby

Good question. I think I have a good answer.

Hopefully, this won't take long, but then again, I'm long winded.

The "next step" is actually a wave of "next steps" that's needed to get the idea from your head to being put in front of people.

The fundamentals are there so that you can take that "next step." The next step, to me, is nothing more or less than being the right person at the right place at the right time. Let me explain.

You've learned how to write. You've gone to school, taken courses, gone to seminars (Lee, are you ever going to go through with that seminar you were thinking about a couple of years ago? Getting together writers and editors? I'm certain there are people here that would love to attend something like that, as there were people at Scryptic that wanted to attend, me in particular.), and you've taken to heart every crit, as well as followed all of the books and columns out there. Your writing is up to snuff. You know it, because people who are in the business have told you so.

The "next step" is to get it in front of a publishing editor. The "next step" is to be the story that the editor is looking for. The "next step" is to be as useful to the editor as possible. The "next step" is to understand your place in the industry and in the company, if you happen to get a job. The "next step" is to not get discouraged if you don't get the job, or tell the story you want to tell.

From a company standpoint, the "next step" is to write to the standards of the editor. It sounds like you're not telling your story, and to some extent that's true, but it's also getting the story you are telling into the hands of the public. Hopefully, the story is worthwhile.

From an industry standpoint, the "next step" is to self-publish, if you've got the strength for it and if you don't want to be a cog in the Marvel/DC machine.

However, I'm willing to bet that 99% of "writers" don't have what it takes to hone their skills in order to present their A game by doing all the hard work: market research, writing, reading, critiquing and being critiqued, writing, reading, going to columns such as mine and doing the homework assignments, studying books written on comics, writing, reading, being humble, being polite, and just to make sure I don't forget, WRITING and READING.

That 99% puts together crap like Hanyouyomi, and then submits it to places like Dark Horse and Image, thinking they're going to get a job.

Look around the board. Go back through the history of just this section alone. See how many scripts are put up that make your eyes bleed and throw your hands up in frustration. See how many don't take crits to heart, and go off to think they're geniuses. These are the ones who make it tough for that 1% to get noticed, because the slush pile is HUGE.

There was a board called One Nexus Studios, who thought they were going to get into the publishing game. There was good energy to get things done, some decent ideas, but inevitably, it went nowhere. Right now, the forum is a ghost town. But that's neither here nor there. I was there for a few months, and saw a lot of scripts posted. I gave a critique on most, and I didn't pull any punches. Maybe a tad more ruthless than I am here. Maybe a smidge. Anyway, over the few months that I was there, I noticed that there were two types of people who were posting: the ones that wanted to get better, and the ones who wanted to complain because I hurt their wittle feewings.

The ones that wanted to get better GOT better, and the ones who were huut didn't get get anywhere, but the quality of the posted scripts went up. Steadily.

The hurt ones are the ones who are sending in the crap. They're not going to make it. They're not ready for the "next step," whatever that means to them. However, they're also the ones that are bringing the rest of us down, so that we have to do end-arounds in order to get noticed in the industry.

To also touch on something else you've say, Jim, no, we all don't have a firm grasp on the fundamentals. The fundamentals of comic writing are hard. In my column, I spent weeks going over elementary stuff before getting into the actual scriptwriting, and there are things that I still need to go back over. There are a LOT of moving parts to a script, and in order to be fundamentally sound, you have to know them all and how they work together. It's like a mechanic not knowing the use of the tools in his box, or not knowing how to repair a simple engine.

You also have a steady influx of new writers who want to get in and think they have the moxie. How many "new to writing" posts do we have on a monthly basis? As an average, I'd say about two, and that's only since I've been back. Two a month, since about Feb. Where are they going for their fundamentals? Where are the teachers here on DW? Who's willing to step up and guide the new writers by the hand and prepare them for the "next step"?

That's why I write my column. For free. I come here to DW every day, and while I don't post on every script, I see a lot of new writers (and some writers who should know better) making the same, obvious mistakes. I point out the obvious in some of them, for a couple of reasons: the first is because a reminder never hurts, and the second is because sometimes it's seriously needed.

Long winded, like I said, but hopefully helpful. In any event, that's where I'm coming from. Others may (and should) have different opinions as to what the "next step" is. But that's my take on it.

-Steven

Forby

They're almost one and the same, Shea. Almost. It's hard to critique without criticizing, and in some respects, critiquing is criticism.

In any event, it was something of a joke, meant to give you a hard time. Well, meant to give you both a hard time. Not to say it's not true, but take it as some good-natured ribbing.

Thanksgiving is right around the corner, people! Give thanks!

-Steven

Meyvn

So incredibly true. And the worst of it is that 99% is most of the answer to the question, "Why is it so hard for a writer to break in?"

PIMPZILLA

I totally understand the joking aspect.

I do think that you're right. in SOME respects critiquing and criticism are the same. I think criticism is part of critiquing. It's part 1. part 2 is telling the person how they can improve.

if you leave out part 2, then you're not being helpful. Just rude.


It seems that this guy just wants part 1 though.

Yojimbo

Unless I'm mistaken in the info I've gotten from this very forum, you actually missed the next step between writing something that's been critiqued as quality and getting in front of an editor...

Getting an artist to do 5 sample pages for you.

I won't stray onto the tangent upon which I've tread before. I know at the end of the path there's a windmill.

So I'll ask a question instead. Assuming I don't want to approach an editor with my scribble of a story with a stain of questionable organic origin running down the middle (that was frakking hilarious, Bread), what's your recommendation on how much of a story should have art to go with it? How important is the quality of the art, or is the editor just looking for something more than a script?

On your comment about studying the market, I wonder how you chew this food for thought. While self-publishing is a noble endeavor and I subscribe to several small, independent titles, I think it's broken as a mechanism for "making it". Americans eschew farmer's markets, local civic clubs and interest groups, and college radio. They want brand names from Wal-Mart, myspace, and top-40 stations. In a country where we won't even give serious consideration to a Presidential candidate (no matter how much we may dislike both) unless they're from the two "approved" political parties, do we really expect the masses to seek quality comics from outside the "big two"? Look at the top gun talent Image had to bring in to capture a noticeable market share, and even then it was reduced to a negligible percentage within a decade.

It seems like the independent press is where talented people go to produce quality stuff that never gets noticed. Atomic Robo, Scud, The Killer, Sparks, Maus, Samurai Executioner, Y: The Last Man. All great stuff by people who weren't just talented, but visionary. But what was their reach? Did they really hit a lot of readers? Did they even have a chance to?

I think people WANT visionary entertainment. They get tired of seeing Clerks XIVII, wrath of the phantom jay. They want movies like "W" and "Mr. Brooks". They want to see games like "Little Big Planet". They want things that are new and stimulating.

I just don't think they want to go look for it. I think they want it handed to them.

Given that, we're DAMN LUCKY that 'Watchmen' ever saw the light of day.

Forby,

- Your thoughts on how many art pages for an editor on a pitch?
- Your thoughts on the quality necessary (versus the artist's fee)?
- Other than the satisfaction that you produced your very own comic and five people subscribing to the website in question read it, do you view the indy press as a viable dominion or is it merely a stepping stone toward hero-ville?

PIMPZILLA

first off Y:The Last Man sold reeeeeeeeally well.

second. By you're logic Preacher, Sandman, and Transmetroplitan, among others, are considered "independent press". They're some of the most popular comics out there. Their reach was exceeded only by their imagination. Hell, Sandman was on the NY Times best seller list. The only comic to do so.

I wouldn't consider anything out of Vertigo indy, but it seems you do. Vertigo titles have a far reach and are usually considered the creme' de la creme.