Dilemma - my artist has flaked out on me - Page 3

John Rauch · 05-06-2008, 11:02 AM

So then every indie artist's future would be in the hands of the writers they've worked with? That seems like it would make it all too easy for a disgruntled writer to hurt an artist's career. What if an artist works with 10 writers and does a great job, but things go sour with number 11? Writer 11 can list the artist on your database and make it that much more difficult for him to find work and only his side of the story counts? Bad idea IMO.

Rogue_Agent · 05-06-2008, 11:18 AM

Ever bought something on Ebay from someone with less than 100% feedback? I know I have.

John Rauch · 05-06-2008, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogue_Agent

Ever bought something on Ebay from someone with less than 100% feedback? I know I have.

But didn't you say this database would only list the people someone has had a problem with? They're either on it or they're not. 100% or 0%.

Rogue_Agent · 05-06-2008, 11:22 AM

YOU, by the way, Mr. Rauch are a genius!

I'm not disgruntled and I probably seem like I have it in for artists but that is not the case. This thread is realted to stories of artists flaking out more than once and since this is a business with no standardization (because it is an artistic business) some will take advantage of others again and again.

Protection is not a bad thing and those who are responsible have little to fear.

Rogue_Agent · 05-06-2008, 11:26 AM

Both side could certainly post their point-of-view on the database. Those writers and artists that are just being childish or irresponsible will be easy to spot.

Again, this is just an idea. If it were me, I would probably work through an ESCROW account. That way, there is a contract and until it is fulfilled, I am not out anything. If the artist decides they want to pull-out, I have only my time invested.

raya · 05-06-2008, 11:29 AM

FYI, John is a colorist who has done work for Marvel, so I think he knows what he's talking about.

There has been threads of people complaining they haven't been paid, and they are often scared of posting it on the threads for fear of the creator getting mad. If writers/creators have a list of reputable/reliable artists, shouldn't artists be able to do the same for the writers/creators?

John Rauch · 05-06-2008, 11:31 AM

The problem is that anytime something ends badly, both parties blame the other. Some people legitimately ae 100% in the right. But there are also a lot of situations where things just deteriorate from both sides. Also, what if the writer was in the wrong, but doesn't think so? There are problems from both directions and I wouldn't genearlize either source valid enough to publish their opinion that someone has screwed them. I agree that the idea might sound nice to have a way of never getting screwed over, but really, it's not going to stop that anyway, and there would be 100 ways to abuse such a system. Since I started working in comics, I've been taken for somewhere around $10,000 worth of work. It sucks, every single time and I would advise my friends not to work with the companies/people responsible, but the longer I work in comics, the more I'm able to see the signs and avoid these people from the start. It's just the way it goes sometimes. The people who have been in the game the least, get taken the most. Just learn from it what you can and move on.

Rogue_Agent · 05-06-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raya

FYI, John is a colorist who has done work for Marvel, so I think he knows what he's talking about.

There has been threads of people complaining they haven't been paid, and they are often scared of posting it on the threads for fear of the creator getting mad. If writers/creators have a list of reputable/reliable artists, shouldn't artists be able to do the same for the writers/creators?

Absolutely! That is what I was talking about with the parties posting their point-of-view with the dispute.

Rogue_Agent · 05-06-2008, 11:54 AM

John,

I'm sure that's all anyone can do. My intention was to offer a possible solution since so many people had horror stories.

I have worked with artists costantly for 14 years in the music business and I have learned the VAST majority want everything handed to them. So, unfortunatley, I have a pre-conceived idea when someone talks about "artists." I'm not sure if this is the case with comics but this experience has caused me to work in a strictly professional manner with NO personal friendships muddying the mix- And I am an artist myself.

I know a lot of artists want things to be informal and cool but experience has taught me that is a sure sign someone is going to drop the ball.

Again, I have no hard feelings toward artists I do not know and as I am new to this business as a writer I am thankful for your insight and I certainly respect your work and your opinion. However, what I am seeing here is a lot of peopel saying "I got screwed" and no one saying "well, whay about this as a solution."

True, nothing is fail-safe and nothing will be perfect but thinking of ways to weed out the bad apples is surely worth putting thought to if you don't want to see it happening.

Rogue_Agent · 05-06-2008, 12:27 PM

John,

When I said you were a genius I wasn't being sarcastic. I think your work is great

Thank you again for the insight and for takign the time to write.

~Rogue

John Rauch · 05-06-2008, 12:34 PM

I appreciate it, but really, in the grand scheme of things, I'm a nobody and I don't expect that my opinions should be more valid than anyone else's just because of who I've worked with. I just worry that sometimes these solutions may be as bad as the problems they're supposed to solve. I honestly think that if an artist (or anyone) has a pattern of screwing up in some way, they're not going to progress past the indie scene anyway. So, the most effective solution I can think of is just simple experience. Everyone gets taken a couple times...everyone. Just learn to see the signs sooner and be sure enough of your own insitincts to not get involved with the people who throw up red flags. Almost every time I've been in one of these situations, I would look back after and wonder why I didn't see it coming.

Rogue_Agent · 05-06-2008, 12:43 PM

John,

Been there myself when I had booking agent owe me $5,000 at a time. I agree that there is no substitute for experience.

I'm not saying your God or anything

Your opinion does have a bit more weight here as you are a tried-and-true professional and I'm guessing the majority of forum trollers are not swimming in the same professional circles you are.

Thanks again for cutting to the heart of the matter. Hope we cross paths again in the future.

btw: If you're looking for something to listen to...MY WORK

Rock forth and CONQUER!

John Rauch · 05-06-2008, 02:10 PM

If anything, I'd say a lot of the members here have more experience working with individuals out on their own, so just because I do things for Marvel doesn't really make my opinion better...and I'm not just saying that to be humble because I'm not really that humble.

Oh, and your music is great! You have a really nice vibe going...kind of similar in ways to Jamie Cullum. Not that the styles are the same, but both come off as newer, grittier takes on very classic styles of music...if that makes any sense at all.

Rogue_Agent · 05-06-2008, 03:00 PM

John,

Again, I'm not talking down about the other forum members. It is just that you are in a place a lot of guys are working to get to. Enough said.

Thank you for the compliment on the music! That's funny you thought of Collum as my A&R agent thought the same thing. Great minds...

Glad you like it. Let's hope my stories are as good and that is will help you through some deadline

Okay, everyone! Let's keep our ethics on point and act professionally so there are less of these threads

JAQ · 05-06-2008, 04:47 PM

EBay's "feedback" system is broken. They're trying to figure out ways to deal with the fundamental problems with it (e.g. mutual handjobs to boost each other's rating, retaliatory negative feedback), but it's never going to work. Don't even look at that as a model.

Any kind of "database" system, if it were even remotely successful, would have a huge "SUE ME" sign painted on it. Anyone who posted negative information about someone could be sued for libel (especially in the UK), and if the postings were anonymous (until the subpoenas arrived) they'd be incredibly easy to abuse. Put in sufficient safeguards against that, and it'd be useless.

05-06-2008, 12:27 PM	#40
Rogue_Agent Author of the Underworld Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 118	To clarify... John, When I said you were a genius I wasn't being sarcastic. I think your work is great Thank you again for the insight and for takign the time to write. ~Rogue

05-06-2008, 12:43 PM	#42
Rogue_Agent Author of the Underworld Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 118	...And the moral of the story is... John, Been there myself when I had booking agent owe me $5,000 at a time. I agree that there is no substitute for experience. I'm not saying your God or anything Your opinion does have a bit more weight here as you are a tried-and-true professional and I'm guessing the majority of forum trollers are not swimming in the same professional circles you are. Thanks again for cutting to the heart of the matter. Hope we cross paths again in the future. btw: If you're looking for something to listen to...MY WORK Rock forth and CONQUER!

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

05-06-2008, 11:02 AM	#31
John Rauch The problem with comics. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Decatur, Illinois Posts: 737	So then every indie artist's future would be in the hands of the writers they've worked with? That seems like it would make it all too easy for a disgruntled writer to hurt an artist's career. What if an artist works with 10 writers and does a great job, but things go sour with number 11? Writer 11 can list the artist on your database and make it that much more difficult for him to find work and only his side of the story counts? Bad idea IMO.

05-06-2008, 11:18 AM	#32
Rogue_Agent Author of the Underworld Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 118	Ever bought something on Ebay from someone with less than 100% feedback? I know I have.

05-06-2008, 11:22 AM	#34
Rogue_Agent Author of the Underworld Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 118	YOU, by the way, Mr. Rauch are a genius! I'm not disgruntled and I probably seem like I have it in for artists but that is not the case. This thread is realted to stories of artists flaking out more than once and since this is a business with no standardization (because it is an artistic business) some will take advantage of others again and again. Protection is not a bad thing and those who are responsible have little to fear.

05-06-2008, 11:26 AM	#35
Rogue_Agent Author of the Underworld Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 118	Both side could certainly post their point-of-view on the database. Those writers and artists that are just being childish or irresponsible will be easy to spot. Again, this is just an idea. If it were me, I would probably work through an ESCROW account. That way, there is a contract and until it is fulfilled, I am not out anything. If the artist decides they want to pull-out, I have only my time invested.

05-06-2008, 11:29 AM	#36
raya Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,326	FYI, John is a colorist who has done work for Marvel, so I think he knows what he's talking about. There has been threads of people complaining they haven't been paid, and they are often scared of posting it on the threads for fear of the creator getting mad. If writers/creators have a list of reputable/reliable artists, shouldn't artists be able to do the same for the writers/creators?

05-06-2008, 11:31 AM	#37
John Rauch The problem with comics. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Decatur, Illinois Posts: 737	The problem is that anytime something ends badly, both parties blame the other. Some people legitimately ae 100% in the right. But there are also a lot of situations where things just deteriorate from both sides. Also, what if the writer was in the wrong, but doesn't think so? There are problems from both directions and I wouldn't genearlize either source valid enough to publish their opinion that someone has screwed them. I agree that the idea might sound nice to have a way of never getting screwed over, but really, it's not going to stop that anyway, and there would be 100 ways to abuse such a system. Since I started working in comics, I've been taken for somewhere around $10,000 worth of work. It sucks, every single time and I would advise my friends not to work with the companies/people responsible, but the longer I work in comics, the more I'm able to see the signs and avoid these people from the start. It's just the way it goes sometimes. The people who have been in the game the least, get taken the most. Just learn from it what you can and move on.

05-06-2008, 11:54 AM	#39
Rogue_Agent Author of the Underworld Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 118	John, I'm sure that's all anyone can do. My intention was to offer a possible solution since so many people had horror stories. I have worked with artists costantly for 14 years in the music business and I have learned the VAST majority want everything handed to them. So, unfortunatley, I have a pre-conceived idea when someone talks about "artists." I'm not sure if this is the case with comics but this experience has caused me to work in a strictly professional manner with NO personal friendships muddying the mix- And I am an artist myself. I know a lot of artists want things to be informal and cool but experience has taught me that is a sure sign someone is going to drop the ball. Again, I have no hard feelings toward artists I do not know and as I am new to this business as a writer I am thankful for your insight and I certainly respect your work and your opinion. However, what I am seeing here is a lot of peopel saying "I got screwed" and no one saying "well, whay about this as a solution." True, nothing is fail-safe and nothing will be perfect but thinking of ways to weed out the bad apples is surely worth putting thought to if you don't want to see it happening.

05-06-2008, 12:34 PM	#41
John Rauch The problem with comics. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Decatur, Illinois Posts: 737	I appreciate it, but really, in the grand scheme of things, I'm a nobody and I don't expect that my opinions should be more valid than anyone else's just because of who I've worked with. I just worry that sometimes these solutions may be as bad as the problems they're supposed to solve. I honestly think that if an artist (or anyone) has a pattern of screwing up in some way, they're not going to progress past the indie scene anyway. So, the most effective solution I can think of is just simple experience. Everyone gets taken a couple times...everyone. Just learn to see the signs sooner and be sure enough of your own insitincts to not get involved with the people who throw up red flags. Almost every time I've been in one of these situations, I would look back after and wonder why I didn't see it coming.

05-06-2008, 02:10 PM	#43
John Rauch The problem with comics. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Decatur, Illinois Posts: 737	If anything, I'd say a lot of the members here have more experience working with individuals out on their own, so just because I do things for Marvel doesn't really make my opinion better...and I'm not just saying that to be humble because I'm not really that humble. Oh, and your music is great! You have a really nice vibe going...kind of similar in ways to Jamie Cullum. Not that the styles are the same, but both come off as newer, grittier takes on very classic styles of music...if that makes any sense at all.

05-06-2008, 03:00 PM	#44
Rogue_Agent Author of the Underworld Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 118	John, Again, I'm not talking down about the other forum members. It is just that you are in a place a lot of guys are working to get to. Enough said. Thank you for the compliment on the music! That's funny you thought of Collum as my A&R agent thought the same thing. Great minds... Glad you like it. Let's hope my stories are as good and that is will help you through some deadline Okay, everyone! Let's keep our ethics on point and act professionally so there are less of these threads

05-06-2008, 04:47 PM	#45
JAQ Jason A. Quest Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Purgatory, Michigan Posts: 1,785	EBay's "feedback" system is broken. They're trying to figure out ways to deal with the fundamental problems with it (e.g. mutual handjobs to boost each other's rating, retaliatory negative feedback), but it's never going to work. Don't even look at that as a model. Any kind of "database" system, if it were even remotely successful, would have a huge "SUE ME" sign painted on it. Anyone who posted negative information about someone could be sued for libel (especially in the UK), and if the postings were anonymous (until the subpoenas arrived) they'd be incredibly easy to abuse. Put in sufficient safeguards against that, and it'd be useless.