Rates for Graphic Novel

[JJ McKool]

The page rate page, and the one on sales got me thinking. WHat do companies offer for Graphic Novels? I'd imagine Marvel and DC don't offer much compensation, maybe none for trades, but what about like Image and whatnot? I just noticed that some of the top books are pulling in well over $100K, and since I assume places like Image and that let you keep creator rights and all, they would offer a percentage to creators would they not? This percentage or the amount you might be able to get from this is what I was wondering. It seems to me this is where a large amount of money keeps going in comics.

I wonder what the rate they take for regular comics is too, but that's secondary to the before question. Anybody know/dealt with this before? (not just wondering about image btw, also wondering about really any companies you might know of)

[JAQ]

With Image it isn't a matter of "offering a percentage". They don't pay creators anything. It's the creator's (or the studio's) publication, so it's really a question of what Image gets from them for publishing and distributing the book. On individual issues it's a flat fee taken at the back end, and (from what I understand) on paperbacks they take a percentage of the profits. I have no idea what that percentage might be, because it's between Image and the creators they work with.

[NuttyDog]

Yeah, I'm really curious about that.

How big a part does Image take of sales?
I've also heard something about Image requiring the creator/creators paying back printing costs if it doesn't work out well. Is that so? I would imagine a printing cost fo a graphic novel in color to be astronomical. Anyway have a clue and is willing to explain how it works? :P

[jimmybott]

As JAQ said the creators/studio owns the books. Being published by image is like self publishing but renting their logo, their reputation and their buying power for printing. You're paying image a fee with the single issues it's a flat fee that was around $2750, it may have changed and a percentage of the 'profits' for the graphic novel. It's not strictly profits, as they don't take into account what you've spent on the book. Its the amount of money that's left after printing and distribution. Remember that diamond are going to be talking half of the cover price to start with, then image will take the printing and diamond advertising fee and then their percentage. Whats left over = your production, marketing fees and profit.

Percentage of profits from graphic novels to publishers can be anything from 15-50% depending on what you're willing to settle for to get your book in print and how much the publisher feels that percentage will translate in to cash. The better your track record and reputation the better the rate.

Also, I think a lot of people think it all means massive profit when you break it down for companies like marvel, dc and image. But look at the buildings they have to run, the amount of admin, management, editorial staff even the receptionist at their front door are all overheads.

It's a good way to make money if the book came out as single issues first so you have very little in the way of production. Just some bonus material, maybe a new cover and someone to paginate it all. Where as producing a book JUST as a graphic novel it can be difficult to make money.

Marvel Graphic Novels: If you're a marvel creator working on a regular series that gets collected you get a small percentage of the english language sales and nothing from the foreign language sales. I was sat next to a marvel writer at a con recently who is writing several titles and a guy came to his booth with a hardcover collected edition of his series to be signed and he was just gob smacked it even existed.

[jimmybott]

Originally Posted by NuttyDog

Yeah, I'm really curious about that.

How big a part does Image take of sales?
I've also heard something about Image requiring the creator/creators paying back printing costs if it doesn't work out well. Is that so? I would imagine a printing cost fo a graphic novel in color to be astronomical. Anyway have a clue and is willing to explain how it works? :P

Printing is usually based on the preorders + an overprint for predicted reorders. In terms of single issues. If you don't sell enough comics to cover the print costs and the $2750 fee then you owe image that money. Roughly you need to sell around 5000 issues to break even. With the graphic novel, you're less likely to owe image much because its a percentage not a fee.

[jrod]

Without quoting an exact number I can say I was paid handsomely for POSTCARDS and everyone working on it pulled a great advance, especially for an anthology.

Also, the folks I know who've had their creator owned GNs published at Random, like me, plus some other houses have also pulled in nice advances. An advance is usually an estimate of your first year's royalties. And your royalties are usually around 7.5-15% the retail price, depending on your deal and whether it's trade/soft cover/color/how many you've sold/etc.

I'm sure smaller houses have different set-ups and smaller advances so there's no set formula.

[JJ McKool]

Originally Posted by jimmybott

Printing is usually based on the preorders + an overprint for predicted reorders. In terms of single issues. If you don't sell enough comics to cover the print costs and the $2750 fee then you owe image that money. Roughly you need to sell around 5000 issues to break even. With the graphic novel, you're less likely to owe image much because its a percentage not a fee.

That's...discouraging. Yet I'm having trouble with those numbers. Diamond seems to take something like half off. But if you go by June's numbers, that would mean about 15 of 33 comics didn't even break even. Well, I would assume some of those weren't on their first month, but still, considering most weren't on their first issue in the series, that doesn't seem right. It seems like that number must change depending upon the creative team. But I'm not sure.

[jimmybott]

Are you looking at the numbers on ICV2 CBGXtra or Newsarama. They're all very misleading. They are only the preorders from diamond from North America. They don't take into account orders from anywhere else in the world. So the numbers are all a bit low. I know because my preorders were almost double what the chart says they were. (You can tell which are reorders they have an asterix after them).

A lot of the image books don't make money on the preorder and some don't make money at all . I don't know if you saw it, but Rick Remender posted encouraging people who were buying strange girl to preorder it because they were on the verge of cancelling the title. What was happening was that the preorders were small, but the RE-orders were bigger. So it was making money, but they weren't seeing that money until 8 months down the road so they were struggling to keep the book going in terms of production.

You may think the figures are all off. But the sad truth is very little money is made in comics outside of the big 2 unless somehow you create soemthing brilliant that grabs peoples attention and they like, or you slowly build a reputation for producing quality work (but the reputation could be built at a financial loss to get there). Just being published by image in no way gaurantees you're going to make anything. But it gives you a better chance than a smaller indy or self-publishing. Why do you think so many studios and companies go bankrupt?

[jimmybott]

Originally Posted by jrod

Without quoting an exact number I can say I was paid handsomely for POSTCARDS and everyone working on it pulled a great advance, especially for an anthology.

Also, the folks I know who've had their creator owned GNs published at Random, like me, plus some other houses have also pulled in nice advances. An advance is usually an estimate of your first year's royalties. And your royalties are usually around 7.5-15% the retail price, depending on your deal and whether it's trade/soft cover/color/how many you've sold/etc.

I'm sure smaller houses have different set-ups and smaller advances so there's no set formula.

Hey Jrod,

Random House aren't distrbuted via diamond are they? I think they are distributed by book distributors like Bertrams and Gardners. Which is a different set up and more in the publishers favor due to the sheer volume of books they distribute.

Book Publisher graphic novels seem to be a great way to go at the moment. Wish guys like you and Joshua Fialkov the best and keep raking in that dough LOL.

I've heard a lot of the publishing houses won't deal with creators directly and would prefer you had an agent (I've heard this for both graphic novels and childrens books) have you experienced this, or you submitted directly to them? Just curious as most of my experience has been within the diamond direct market.

[JJ McKool]

Originally Posted by jimmybott

But the sad truth is very little money is made in comics outside of the big 2 unless somehow you create soemthing brilliant that grabs peoples attention and they like, or you slowly build a reputation for producing quality work (but the reputation could be built at a financial loss to get there). Just being published by image in no way gaurantees you're going to make anything. But it gives you a better chance than a smaller indy or self-publishing. Why do you think so many studios and companies go bankrupt?

True, there is far less money going to comics than in my opinion should be, it's just so strange all the people trying to get into comics in spite of this. But I suppose that's me too.

I thought I'd post a little info on Image that was over at the Engine, it seems a lot of creators really like it, but you have to keep in mind that it's more up to you to sell your book than them.

Originally Posted by Rantz Hosely

The contract was very clear, and actually gave Derek and I more in a lot of ways than I expected. In terms of staff, they are a great crew, and very willing to make your project what you, as a creator, want it to be. We're doing an odd-size/ratio format, plus things like vellum tip-in plates between chapters and some other things that (based on my experience with other indie publishers) we likely would have been discouraged from doing were we not with Image. The folks there never told us 'you don't want to do that' or 'you can't do that.' It was a matter of them giving us the cost for printing with each added/non-standard feature, and then leaving the choice up to us on whether we thought we could sell enough copies to make any money, even doing things like giving us the cost rundown of different printers and what the ROI would look like with each one, then they left it up to Derek and I which one to choose. Same with format in terms of mini-series or OGN, B & W or color. it was left up to us in terms of what we thought was best for the story.

Another thing that I really like about Image that I haven't experienced even with other indie publishers who say they are committed to comics as an art form is that the book/series is the thing to them, not making the quarter or whatever. They've made a couple suggestions that other publishers wouldn't have because it meant the book wouldn't be out until later, but their stance was 'once it's out, you want to be happy with it, so don't shortchange it'. A refreshing attitude to say the least.

Warren mentioned this, but I'll just add that, because of the nature of the deal, if you don't have a personality/mindset that makes it easy or second nature for you to think about selling the book, as well as making it, then it might be bothersome to some folks. Image has been great about giving us resources that we ask for, but it's definately on our shoulders to 'own' the book, and do the legwork and research, etc to make sure that the book sells as well as possible, and that your bases are thoroughly covered in terms of thinking ahead for your promotion/marketing/etc windows.

Originally Posted by Fabio Moon

If you can afford to write a comic and wait to get paid after the comic is done and out, Image is a very nice spot. Just remember that this "waiting time" is like at least three months after it's out, so it's one month writing plus one month drawing plus two weeks (minimum) printing plus three months selling (more if it's a GN), and that means you'll do something and start to get paid only six months afterwards. And, during this six months, you have to keep working on the next issues.

Originally Posted by Dan Evans III

I like Image for the most part but it is very much about being PRO-ACTIVE. you make a strong pitch and get a pretty fast answer. You really need to get word of your book out. You are responsible for getting the work done with no one yelling at you.

I emailed them a couple days ago with a question regarding the content of the book I've been workin on. Me and the writer were talking about it, and it seemed like there might be a bit controversy over it (it sort of attacks a few religions I don't belong to, though that's really not the main point, or any point, it just kind of does as part of the story, and the one religion is at the center of a lot of the content), and that we should think about changing it. So like I said I emailed them, and Larsen got back to me pretty quick with a very simple, "If there were serious restrictions--we'd have mentioned them." SO that is extremely encouraging. Obviously we sill want to veer away from offending people too much, being a couple of unknowns, but I think it kind of shows how open they are to new ideas.

The more I read on them, the more I like. I just hope this project gets picked up.

[jimmybott]

I never meant to imply that image was a bad place to be. It can be great if you're a sales person and willing to do the legwork and marketing. Short of Icon/marvel it's the best place to be for creator owned comics I think alongside Darkhorse (But I believe Darkhorse wants some of the multi-media rights these days).

All I was trying to say was. Don't go into it blind or assuming just because you're being published by image you'll make a small fortune. Market it, push it and make a good product and hopefully with a lot of work and some luck you WILL.

[jrod]

Originally Posted by jimmybott

Hey Jrod,

Random House aren't distrbuted via diamond are they? I think they are distributed by book distributors like Bertrams and Gardners. Which is a different set up and more in the publishers favor due to the sheer volume of books they distribute.

Book Publisher graphic novels seem to be a great way to go at the moment. Wish guys like you and Joshua Fialkov the best and keep raking in that dough LOL.

I've heard a lot of the publishing houses won't deal with creators directly and would prefer you had an agent (I've heard this for both graphic novels and childrens books) have you experienced this, or you submitted directly to them? Just curious as most of my experience has been within the diamond direct market.

Diamond for the direct market and traditional distributors for other markets. A lot of comic companies get to bookstores through Diamond Books but more and more of them seem to be moving away from that. And other comic publishers do do an advance + royalties system. Maybe not for everyone but I think the scope may need to widen a bit beyond Big-2 and Image. I can think of a number three and four in between those two three are set-up this way.

I didn't talk to Random with an agent, at first, but I was introduced to them by way of Josh Fialkov who spoke to them without an agent, at first. In both of our cases they asked us to get out agent involved when it came to the business stuff. In Josh's case he had one in my case I had to get one. But, when you bring a deal to an agent, it becomes a lot easier to get one.

In Josh's case - Random simply knew of and liked Elk's Run and wanted to buy the rights as soon as they were available. Random wanted mine based on the concept and the people involved - they made an initial offer after seeing some concept sketches and one complete story.

So, moral is, make a good comic and make sure people know it exists.

[Scribbly]

Originally Posted by jrod

And other comic publishers do do an advance + royalties system. Maybe not for everyone but I think the scope may need to widen a bit beyond Big-2 and Image. . Random wanted mine based on the concept and the people involved - they made an initial offer after seeing some concept sketches and one complete story.

So, moral is, make a good comic and make sure people know it exists.

That is similar to the European system some way. Of course as you pointed there, they are terribly picky in approving material as well.

And as Jimmybott pointed,
"Being published by image is like self publishing but renting their logo, their reputation and their buying power for printing. "

Seems a good deal to pay $ 3000, in case of being approved, because is the same money we can expend going alone and for ourselves, with none guidance, being non knowed creatives, risking to lost more in the intent.

To sell less than 5000 copies is also an economical failure, no matter in what continent or country we are living, because less than that can not cover the equation:
printing cost, distributor discount,
: money remain.

Going alone in the first selfpublishing intent, for me, is like try to climb the Himalayas with just some mountaineering experience, but with none guides.
I rather pay for them.
Even when the chances of make it are really tight, seems more secure to me.
I don't know why.


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[jrod]

Originally Posted by Scribbly

That is similar to the European system some way. Of course as you pointed there, they are terribly picky in approving material as well.

Well - it's the American book publishing system. It's just that graphic novels are only recently being recognized as books and getting the distribution they need to support the advances. Otherwise, it's be just no advance + royalties, which is still an advance + royalties system if I'm allowed to throw semantics around.

And I wouldn't call looking for good books being "picky." Every publisher is looking for good books.

[Scribbly]

Originally Posted by jrod

Well - it's the American book publishing system. It's just that graphic novels are only recently being recognized as books and getting the distribution they need to support the advances. Otherwise, it's be just no advance + royalties, which is still an advance + royalties system if I'm allowed to throw semantics around.

And I wouldn't call looking for good books being "picky." Every publisher is looking for good books.

Thanks Jrod. I always remenber you were one of the first ones who did answer my questions when I start in this forum almost a year from now.
The graphic novel system did start ten years before in Europe, I remember colleagues who were working on it by then.
I thought they were crazy, working that far, but nowadays it is a reality everywhere. By now the system of graphic novels is working in America too.

And considering the amount of money the publishers must to risk in going to print I think is very fair from them to being picky or "sellective" if the word has more correct meaning.
Thanks.

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