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Old 03-31-2013, 08:40 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins View Post
To be clear, Renae, and no offense intended, but I'm not talking about well-established professionals like you and the people you mentioned. I'm talking about downright FAMOUS comics creators. People who write two or three DC, Marvel, or Image titles a month. There's only 20-25 of those people on the planet. One such name was mentioned in this thread, and the thought of a name that big on kickstarter makes me upset.

And whatever trials or hardships a truly famous comic book creator might have getting a creator-owned book made, you can multiply that for the unknown creator by a thousand. The type of people I'm talking about can pick up a phone and any editor in the business will give their pitch serious consideration. Whereas a guy like me has to hope an editor doesn't immediately throw my submission in the trash.

Even if a full-time comic writer (and this point is specific to writers) isn't rich with money they're rich with time, contacts, networks, and access. Even if you write 3 comics a month, that doesn't come close to the time commitment of most normal full-time jobs. And such a person would know tons of working professionals and their name is enough to entice very talented people to be willing to collaborate with them. If schlubs like me can find talented people willing to work for back-end pay, why can't one of the most famous comic book creators in the world do the same?

I'll trade places with any of those guys any day. I'll take their contacts and their networks and their access and the power of their name, and in exchange they can hoard all the kickstarter dollars they can muster without those things. And we'll see who gets a project done first.

At at the end of the day, the kind of people I'm talking about ought to be, if not rich, then more than capable of financing production costs on a comic book. Much more capable than most unknown people. If you've been in the business for 20 years and have been working for the big boys the whole time on books that sell and you can't even cover production costs on a creator-owned comic, then something's very wrong.
Just to piggyback off of this; I was pretty surprised to see Top Cow utilizing Kickstarter to relaunch Cyberforce. That really bothered me, because I'm pretty sure that Top Cow doesn't need Kickstarter to launch a title, it's a pretty popular and strong publishing company.

Granted, the stuff they were offering was pretty sweet, but still....
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:51 PM   #47
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I'm not talking about forcibly defenestrating them from kickstarter. I'm just saying in the name of fair play and giving unknowns a chance, they should voluntarily recuse themselves from kickstarter. Even if it doesn't take dollars away, it takes away website real estate and attention. If the people supporting them are their own fanbase, then they can raise the money on their own website. They wouldn't do that, (ask their fans for money on their own website) because it would look flat out gross. And to me, it's no less gross for being on kickstarter. It's famous rich people asking for money from unknown, not-rich people.

And to make a pedantic, technical point, there is a finite supply of money on kickstarter because there's a finite amount of money in the world. Even if only 17% of people are repeat backers, I don't want any of their money going to people who don't really need it.

I suppose I'm just too much of a progressive for this. In the case of the video game companies I've seen do this, the people going to kickstarter are literally millionaires. They're millionaires, and they're panhandling. It makes me want to get my torch and my pitchfork, quite frankly.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:59 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by russbrett
But why should they go through the hassle of creating a web site to do exactly what Kickstarter is already doing?
Paypal takes a smaller percentage than KS.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:12 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins View Post
To be clear, Renae, and no offense intended, but I'm not talking about well-established professionals like you and the people you mentioned. I'm talking about downright FAMOUS comics creators. People who write two or three DC, Marvel, or Image titles a month. There's only 20-25 of those people on the planet. One such name was mentioned in this thread, and the thought of a name that big on kickstarter makes me upset.

And whatever trials or hardships a truly famous comic book creator might have getting a creator-owned book made, you can multiply that for the unknown creator by a thousand. The type of people I'm talking about can pick up a phone and any editor in the business will give their pitch serious consideration. Whereas a guy like me has to hope an editor doesn't immediately throw my submission in the trash.

Even if a full-time comic writer (and this point is specific to writers) isn't rich with money they're rich with time, contacts, networks, and access. Even if you write 3 comics a month, that doesn't come close to the time commitment of most normal full-time jobs. And such a person would know tons of working professionals and their name is enough to entice very talented people to be willing to collaborate with them. If schlubs like me can find talented people willing to work for back-end pay, why can't one of the most famous comic book creators in the world do the same?

I'll trade places with any of those guys any day. I'll take their contacts and their networks and their access and the power of their name, and in exchange they can hoard all the kickstarter dollars they can muster without those things. And we'll see who gets a project done first.

At at the end of the day, the kind of people I'm talking about ought to be, if not rich, then more than capable of financing production costs on a comic book. Much more capable than most unknown people. If you've been in the business for 20 years and have been working for the big boys the whole time on books that sell and you can't even cover production costs on a creator-owned comic, then something's very wrong.

Don't worry, you're not offending me! I like you, and I appreciate the discussion!

Maybe we just disagree, and that's okay. I feel that if a creator of ANY status has a legitimate need for Kickstarter (which in my mind would be a funding need, or creative freedom and control away from the publisher), then it's okay to use it. Creative Freedom was a HUGE aspect for me with Peter Pan. There was no other option to get the book made the way I meant it to be unless I did a Kickstarter. I feel if a guy has been working 20 years at a comic publisher, and has no means to get his book made (despite having connections and being considered), he should not be looked down upon for using KS just because he has contacts (which as a side note, he probably earned from years of work in the industry).

If there comes a day when only big names are getting funded, and the little guys are not, then I'd be right with you championing to that the big guys make room for those who need it most. But right now 1 in 2 KS comics get funded, and that includes MANY people who are newcomers.

And it leads me to ask you out of genuine curiosity, what is it that holds you personally back from going to Kickstarter NOW with your project? I know you said that you could do it yourself over time, but I personally feel for you, KS would make it so much better for you especially in the way that you would depend FAR less on a Publishers whim and if they want your book or not.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:19 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanzou View Post
Just to piggyback off of this; I was pretty surprised to see Top Cow utilizing Kickstarter to relaunch Cyberforce. That really bothered me, because I'm pretty sure that Top Cow doesn't need Kickstarter to launch a title, it's a pretty popular and strong publishing company.

Granted, the stuff they were offering was pretty sweet, but still....
You need to understand Publishers minds. They do NOT like to put money on something that is not CERTAIN to sell. They probably wanted to relaunch Cyberforce, but for some reason could not take the financial risk on it. They COULD have, but wouldn't have. So for Cyberforce fans it's pretty awesome that they did this, because it likely wouldn't have happened otherwise. Also wasn't their purpose to just get it done, then give it away for free? That cool.

I've been trying to get DC to let me do this with AMETHYST for a loooong time (I know, barking at the wind ) But MAN it would be awesome if they let me do that!
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:40 PM   #51
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KickStarter, more like GutPuncher am I right?

...

For what it's worth, I say let the big publishers and the big people create their own in-house Crowd Funding sites and let people submit their own projects to fund using their properties. It's as simple as downloading and installing a pre-made clone. That way they keep 100% and keep their swanky asses out of the public pool.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:42 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins View Post
I suppose I'm just too much of a progressive for this. In the case of the video game companies I've seen do this, the people going to kickstarter are literally millionaires. They're millionaires, and they're panhandling. It makes me want to get my torch and my pitchfork, quite frankly.
It's all panhandling. Whether they list the book in Previews, take pre orders on their website, or use Kickstarter, it's all asking for people to commit to buying a product ahead of time.

This sort of entitled, "we got to stand up for the little guy" attitude is dangerous. I think the proper name for it is Sour Grapes.

Kickstarter is nothing but a recognizable brand that is offering an "all in one go to location" for people to raise interest and money for their product, and the only reason "customers" use it is because they want to support "creativity" without supporting evil, big business corporations.

Personally, I think the "freedom from corporations" attitude is asinine, but it feeds into the "we got to stand up for the little guy" attitude that so many people have about Kickstarter projects.

Kickstarter is just as big business as Image Comics. Kickstarter cuts out some of the middleman costs because it places all the responsibility on the creator, and as far as I know, provides a more instant access to the money (for better or worse).

Kickstarter is not going to start turning away famous people who are guaranteed to bring in big bucks because that would destroy their whole business model and would loose them money.

Rich famous people have just as much a right to make money as the rest of us poor saps do. There's nothing about the Kickstarter model that says they are specifically for poor, unknown people. Sure, Kickstarter has done a good job of selling that concept, because that's what the customer market wants to hear, but they are in no way obligated to start restricting who can and cannot use their model.

I think there are steps Kickstarter needs to take to make the crowdfunding experience better, but limiting the number of people who can use the platform is not one of them.
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Old 03-31-2013, 09:48 PM   #53
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And it leads me to ask you out of genuine curiosity, what is it that holds you personally back from going to Kickstarter NOW with your project? I know you said that you could do it yourself over time, but I personally feel for you, KS would make it so much better for you especially in the way that you would depend FAR less on a Publishers whim and if they want your book or not.
I feel like I don't really know enough people or have enough contacts. I don't even have 40 likes on facebook. If I were to raise the money, I'd want to raise it for the entire 6 issues. And even though I've already finished an issue and a half, we'd be talking about around $15,000. I just don't feel right about asking for that kind of money, even if I thought I could raise it. Plus, I don't really know what I'm doing with kickstarter, or what I could offer as rewards. I may have to give it a shot one day soon, as I don't know how I'll get issues 3-6 done any other way. Was Womanthology your first KS?
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:03 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Aaron Walther View Post
It's all panhandling. Whether they list the book in Previews, take pre orders on their website, or use Kickstarter, it's all asking for people to commit to buying a product ahead of time.

This sort of entitled, "we got to stand up for the little guy" attitude is dangerous. I think the proper name for it is Sour Grapes.

Kickstarter is nothing but a recognizable brand that is offering an "all in one go to location" for people to raise interest and money for their product, and the only reason "customers" use it is because they want to support "creativity" without supporting evil, big business corporations.

Personally, I think the "freedom from corporations" attitude is asinine, but it feeds into the "we got to stand up for the little guy" attitude that so many people have about Kickstarter projects.

Kickstarter is just as big business as Image Comics. Kickstarter cuts out some of the middleman costs because it places all the responsibility on the creator, and as far as I know, provides a more instant access to the money (for better or worse).

Kickstarter is not going to start turning away famous people who are guaranteed to bring in big bucks because that would destroy their whole business model and would loose them money.

Rich famous people have just as much a right to make money as the rest of us poor saps do. There's nothing about the Kickstarter model that says they are specifically for poor, unknown people. Sure, Kickstarter has done a good job of selling that concept, because that's what the customer market wants to hear, but they are in no way obligated to start restricting who can and cannot use their model.

I think there are steps Kickstarter needs to take to make the crowdfunding experience better, but limiting the number of people who can use the platform is not one of them.
I never suggested any of the things this post pretends I have.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:36 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins View Post
I feel like I don't really know enough people or have enough contacts. I don't even have 40 likes on facebook. If I were to raise the money, I'd want to raise it for the entire 6 issues. And even though I've already finished an issue and a half, we'd be talking about around $15,000. I just don't feel right about asking for that kind of money, even if I thought I could raise it. Plus, I don't really know what I'm doing with kickstarter, or what I could offer as rewards. I may have to give it a shot one day soon, as I don't know how I'll get issues 3-6 done any other way. Was Womanthology your first KS?
Is the 15 k for JUST the creative costs for 6 issues? What would be creative costs for each issue, respectively (if I may ask)? If you can tell me that I can try and offer you a scenario for Kickstarter to consider (funding goal, reward types, etc). Basically, while current fanbase is needed for optimal funding (like 10k and up), it's completely possible to earn less than that with no following if you present your project (especially in the video) juuuuuust right.

Womanthology was my first. It was a um, crazy experience to say the least. I saw the lows and highs a Kickstarter can offer. I learned a lot from it.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:56 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Walther View Post
It's all panhandling. Whether they list the book in Previews, take pre orders on their website, or use Kickstarter, it's all asking for people to commit to buying a product ahead of time.

This sort of entitled, "we got to stand up for the little guy" attitude is dangerous. I think the proper name for it is Sour Grapes.

Kickstarter is nothing but a recognizable brand that is offering an "all in one go to location" for people to raise interest and money for their product, and the only reason "customers" use it is because they want to support "creativity" without supporting evil, big business corporations.

Personally, I think the "freedom from corporations" attitude is asinine, but it feeds into the "we got to stand up for the little guy" attitude that so many people have about Kickstarter projects.

Kickstarter is just as big business as Image Comics. Kickstarter cuts out some of the middleman costs because it places all the responsibility on the creator, and as far as I know, provides a more instant access to the money (for better or worse).

Kickstarter is not going to start turning away famous people who are guaranteed to bring in big bucks because that would destroy their whole business model and would loose them money.

Rich famous people have just as much a right to make money as the rest of us poor saps do. There's nothing about the Kickstarter model that says they are specifically for poor, unknown people. Sure, Kickstarter has done a good job of selling that concept, because that's what the customer market wants to hear, but they are in no way obligated to start restricting who can and cannot use their model.

I think there are steps Kickstarter needs to take to make the crowdfunding experience better, but limiting the number of people who can use the platform is not one of them.
I agree that people should not be excluded either (at least not RIGHT NOW where every level seems to find success). But on the other hand I do see how people could view a millionaire going on a site that's intended to help those that have no means to get their creative vision funded could be irksome. So I get that side too. Happily KS seems really good at balancing attention towards ALL types of projects, and all types find success. I have hope it will always stay that way.
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:03 PM   #57
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I was actually excluded from KS after my pitch saying what I was planning to do. I only got accepted in a follow-up letter where the person said they went and looked up who I was.

Dunno, just felt like adding that.
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:09 PM   #58
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Hey Wolfy so you're accepted now? That's awesome! So was that for Project Breakthrough?
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:17 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renae De Liz View Post
I agree that people should not be excluded either (at least not RIGHT NOW where every level seems to find success). But on the other hand I do see how people could view a millionaire going on a site that's intended to help those that have no means to get their creative vision funded could be irksome. So I get that side too. Happily KS seems really good at balancing attention towards ALL types of projects, and all types find success. I have hope it will always stay that way.
Ah, but Renae, there in lies the rub. Kickstarter is NOT for people that have no means to get their creative vision funded. Sure, Kickstarter is a great tool for people who have no other means to get their creative vision funded, but please show on their website, where they say that's their intended purpose.

That is the cult of personality that has been built up around Kickstarter because there are plenty of overnight success stories, but they are still a for profit company. Their express purpose is to change the way an artist, rich or poor, interacts with the market, and to take a cut of the profit.

I'm sorry if this sounds blunt, but complaining about rich or famous people using Kickstarter when there are poor or unknown people who *need it more* is sour grapes.

A person's time would be better spent studying successful Kickstarter campaigns and finding a way to emulate them.
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Old 03-31-2013, 11:24 PM   #60
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Is the 15 k for JUST the creative costs for 6 issues? What would be creative costs for each issue, respectively (if I may ask)? If you can tell me that I can try and offer you a scenario for Kickstarter to consider (funding goal, reward types, etc). Basically, while current fanbase is needed for optimal funding (like 10k and up), it's completely possible to earn less than that with no following if you present your project (especially in the video) juuuuuust right.

Womanthology was my first. It was a um, crazy experience to say the least. I saw the lows and highs a Kickstarter can offer. I learned a lot from it.
Well, my first issue cost me around $3,000 for 25 pages. Issue 2 is gonna cost me about the same. I can handle it, but not in a timely fashion. If I could afford to pay all my guys to be working simultaneously, I could just about make a monthly deadline. But I can only ever afford to have them working one at a time, so what should take a month takes like 3 and a half.

So, anyway, let's say issue 3 and 4 cost about the same, that would be $6000. Issues 5 and 6 are 32 and 40 pages, respectively. So, issue 5 will cost around 3300, and issue 6 about 4000, I'm guessing.

So, let's say 13, 300 altogether. Something like that. And that's with me taking zero dollars for myself, which I'm fine with.

I guess I could go a book at a time, and just try to get each one done before kickstarting the next. That's what russbret said he was going to try to do and maybe that's the best idea.
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