The Talent Engine
 
 

Go Back   Digital Webbing Forums > Talent Engine > Creator Community

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-07-2018, 11:27 PM   #16
DCdraw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: NYC
Posts: 73
DCdraw is on a distinguished road

Actually, writing all that had stirred a memory of letting my guard down by doing the work before I get paid. Once in 2009 when I was starting out after getting work at a major con and the other time last year, from a company I had been working for like 6 or 7 years (thats actually fresh on my mind but didn't want to talk about it publicly). Different circumstances but, in both instances I did all the work before getting paid and there ended up being problems when it came time to get paid (go figure) and it took longer (in one case 6 months longer) than I expected to see the money owed to me.

So there you go, I have like 4 examples off the top of my head of doing the work before I get paid and things ending up not going well vs. asking for half up front and things going smoothly..numerous times throughout the years.
So yeah, from my experience, people will f you over if you give them the chance so don't give them the chance. I know that sounds cold but, it beats having messed up stories of getting taken advantage of.

BTW, someone paying through Paypal can get their money back. I think its within 60 days..? And it shouldn't have to take more than 60 days for someone to figure out that someone is not producing work they're paying for, right?
DCdraw is offline  
Old 02-08-2018, 12:20 AM   #17
Scribbly
Registered User
 
Scribbly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wicked Salem, MA
Posts: 4,871
Scribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud of

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCdraw View Post
Actually, writing all that had stirred a memory of letting my guard down by doing the work before I get paid. Once in 2009 when I was starting out after getting work at a major con and the other time last year, from a company I had been working for like 6 or 7 years (thats actually fresh on my mind but didn't want to talk about it publicly). Different circumstances but, in both instances I did all the work before getting paid and there ended up being problems when it came time to get paid (go figure) and it took longer (in one case 6 months longer) than I expected to see the money owed to me.

So there you go, I have like 4 examples off the top of my head of doing the work before I get paid and things ending up not going well vs. asking for half up front and things going smoothly..numerous times throughout the years.
So yeah, from my experience, people will f you over if you give them the chance so don't give them the chance. I know that sounds cold but, it beats having messed up stories of getting taken advantage of.

BTW, someone paying through Paypal can get their money back. I think its within 60 days..? And it shouldn't have to take more than 60 days for someone to figure out that someone is not producing work they're paying for, right?
So you did work for a company for 7 years. They always paid you on time.
And once, for some circumstances they deferred the payment 6 months. But they paid you afterwards. What is your reading? Did they wait all these years just to screw the payment for 6 months ? Or they were having financial problems? And from that experience now you ask to anybody for half upfront payment before start any job and everybody is OK with that? They pay you upfront, not knowing with what you are going to come up or anything? Interesting.
Well, power to you them.
__________________
Style is an intentional restriction.
Scribbly is offline  
Old 02-08-2018, 09:39 AM   #18
TASKER
I'm not your DADA
 
TASKER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: im with stupid
Posts: 519
TASKER has disabled reputation

I looked up Dan Sant who is a Freelance artist from São Vicente, Brazil....

No wonder..
You paid thousands for his art LOL...
Make it American..
__________________
+
i don't apologize- im sorry but thatz just how i am-
TASKER is offline  
Old 02-08-2018, 09:45 AM   #19
DCdraw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: NYC
Posts: 73
DCdraw is on a distinguished road

To clarify: the work relationship started in 2011, I had already been requesting half upfront since 2009. Anyway, they always paid full upfront (their idea not mine). Around 2013, they started asking here and there to do a payment after arrangement as a favor. The incentive was that I would get more work from them using that method than if I were to get paid upfront.
That went on ok until last year when there were issues of them lying to me about stuff and not responding to emails for weeks at a time...behavior that hadn't happened in years before.
Anyway, they did end up making it right months later (more like 9 months than 6 like I mentioned before and originally it was only supposed to be 6 weeks). and I am still working with them.....but, I made it clear that I will not be doing the pay after arrangement anymore. The trust that had been built up from all those years had been damaged.

BTW, I'm not an anomaly as far as asking for some payment upfront. Most other artists I know, do the same and some even request the full amount upfront.
DCdraw is offline  
Old 02-08-2018, 10:07 AM   #20
Scribbly
Registered User
 
Scribbly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wicked Salem, MA
Posts: 4,871
Scribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud of

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCdraw View Post
To clarify: the work relationship started in 2011, I had already been requesting half upfront since 2009. Anyway, they always paid full upfront (their idea not mine). Around 2013, they started asking here and there to do a payment after arrangement as a favor. The incentive was that I would get more work from them using that method than if I were to get paid upfront.
That went on ok until last year when there were issues of them lying to me about stuff and not responding to emails for weeks at a time...behavior that hadn't happened in years before.
Anyway, they did end up making it right months later (more like 9 months than 6 like I mentioned before and originally it was only supposed to be 6 weeks). and I am still working with them.....but, I made it clear that I will not be doing the pay after arrangement anymore. The trust that had been built up from all those years had been damaged.

BTW, I'm not an anomaly as far as asking for some payment upfront. Most other artists I know, do the same and some even request the full amount upfront.
Sorry. Excuse me. Maybe I am slow, I know I am. My apologies.
What I can not understand is HOW the commissioner, the individual person or Editor, can control your delivery if your work is already paid.
What if they don't like what they see, or want make changes or adjustments? Are they paying you on top for corrections?
How can they control the quality and the regularity on the delivery if the work is already paid?

Where their power of negotiation goes on the second they pay you on full or half upfront for the job?
You are showing the image of an omnipotent artist that is quite unfamiliar for me.
And I know many famous an well published artist for almost all my life.
Retired and currently working artists from different media. I am not talking here about pinup artists.
Unless this happen to super famous hot artists, I never heard of such deals for artists.
Amazing.
__________________
Style is an intentional restriction.
Scribbly is offline  
Old 02-08-2018, 10:35 PM   #21
DCdraw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: NYC
Posts: 73
DCdraw is on a distinguished road

Yeah, no worries of course..

"What I can not understand is HOW the commissioner, the individual person or Editor, can control your delivery if your work is already paid."

The timeframe/deadline is agreed on beforehand but, yes, technically, they wouldn't have any recourse if I were to not deliver the artwork on time or at all. It goes both ways though because, technically speaking again, if the other party wanted to be malicious they could file a claim with Paypal AFTER they've already received the artwork (since I am only sending a digital file and nothing physical) or do a chargeback through their bank.


"What if they don't like what they see, or want make changes or adjustments? Are they paying you on top for corrections?
How can they control the quality and the regularity on the delivery if the work is already paid?"

On stuff specifically where I am getting paid full upfront, I don't get anything extra for doing revisions, I just do them. I've had to do a couple of do-overs too. For most of those I didn't get anything for those either but I believe there was once or twice when they paid me half my rate for the do-over.
For everything else (basically the half upfront arrangement ) I'm pretty laid-back when it comes to revisions for the most part. I usually just do them without asking for more money. However, in the instance of the other party approving a rough sketch and then changing their mind after the final artwork, I have no problem asking for an additional 25% for the revisions. And I'm also fine if they don't want to pay me for revisions either to be honest but, it doesn't hurt to ask.
So yeah, even though in actuality, I could be a jerk and screw them over (though, I'd only have that opportunity one time since they'd never use me again, obviously) I am pretty subservient (without being a pushover) and basically just do what they tell me without questioning or causing problems. Dam, that sounds bad as I'm typing that out.
Also, just want to mention, that the company that does pay me upfront (the one I mentioned a few times already) did research me and inquire with a company I had done work for previously before ever working with me.

"Where their power of negotiation goes on the second they pay you on full or half upfront for the job?"
Im not sure I understand...? Everything (rate and timeframe) is worked out before any money changes hands.

"And I know many famous an well published artist for almost all my life.
Retired and currently working artists from different media. I am not talking here about pinup artists.
Unless this happen to super famous hot artists, I never heard of such deals for artists."

I'm rarely (if ever) the only artist involved in these projects and artists tend to talk and ask questions amongst themselves. So I'm just relaying that other artists doing pretty much similar work to me have similar arrangements..some also have pay after the work is done too, BTW.
DCdraw is offline  
Old 02-09-2018, 10:56 AM   #22
Bishop
Registered User
 
Bishop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kholinar, Alethkar
Posts: 6,096
Bishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud of

What I've done in the past with some writers, and it has worked well, is to have a good faith down payment (typically a percentage of the overall project), and then payments per page. There is an agreed upon deadline for pages, and upon the writer approving a low-res version of a page the payment is submitted. Once payment is received the hi-res version is delivered. It kind of provides protection to both sides this way.
__________________
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous." -Anonymous
Bishop is online now  
Old 02-10-2018, 10:24 AM   #23
DCdraw
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: NYC
Posts: 73
DCdraw is on a distinguished road

Something Scribbly had said...calling it a service. But is it? Wouldn't providing 'a product or commodity' be a more apt description? Providing a service implies something more along the lines of a plumber or mechanic but in those cases they're not creating something for the intent of being sold afterwards by the customer.
And if it is considered a product, then couldn't it be said that it's just not any product, it's a custom piece that is created to the customer's exact spefications? And if so, then wouldn't a deposit of some sort seem more justifiable then?
DCdraw is offline  
Old 02-10-2018, 11:53 AM   #24
Scribbly
Registered User
 
Scribbly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wicked Salem, MA
Posts: 4,871
Scribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud of

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCdraw View Post
Something Scribbly had said...calling it a service. But is it? Wouldn't providing 'a product or commodity' be a more apt description? Providing a service implies something more along the lines of a plumber or mechanic but in those cases they're not creating something for the intent of being sold afterwards by the customer.
And if it is considered a product, then couldn't it be said that it's just not any product, it's a custom piece that is created to the customer's exact spefications? And if so, then wouldn't a deposit of some sort seem more justifiable then?
Well, legally Artists are independent contractors. Subject to Self-Employment Tax.
According with the Department of Labor categories:
Independent contractors are plumbers, graphic artists, shoemakers, drivers, house keeper, actor, carpenter, architect, hairdresser, massage therapist, etc. Is a vast list.
People who are providers of specific services.
Regardless the subjective attributions we can give to our work.

We happen to be graphic artists, providers of services in the form of comics pages, illustrations, designs, animations and ...pinups. etc.. etc..
Working as permanent staff for a Company under contract we may become employees with benefits.
If so, we are legally providing our graphic services to our employer in exchange for a salary.
__________________
Style is an intentional restriction.
Scribbly is offline  
Old 02-10-2018, 03:11 PM   #25
Stewart Vernon
Registered User
 
Stewart Vernon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Kittrell, NC
Posts: 1,544
Stewart Vernon is a glorious beacon of lightStewart Vernon is a glorious beacon of lightStewart Vernon is a glorious beacon of lightStewart Vernon is a glorious beacon of lightStewart Vernon is a glorious beacon of lightStewart Vernon is a glorious beacon of lightStewart Vernon is a glorious beacon of light

Bottom line... there is no "perfect" arrangement unless both parties are up front, honest, and complete their part of the deal.

If you pay half or all up front, you might get nothing. On the other side, if you don't get paid half or all up front you might waste a lot of time that you don't get paid for when you could have been doing other work that would have paid you.

Also, often the dollar amounts in these deals are low enough that it would cost you more in court costs to try and get your money if you are the one getting stiffed... so whether you're dealing with a company or another amateur, either side might be taking a huge gamble.

You can look for red flags, check references, but each new deal could be the one that doesn't go through. That's, unfortunately, the nature of freelance work.
__________________
- Where you AT-AT?
Where I go when I am not here.
Stewart Vernon is offline  
Old 02-11-2018, 02:48 AM   #26
Eliseu Gouveia
Suteki Da Ne
 
Eliseu Gouveia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Outside looking in
Posts: 3,073
Eliseu Gouveia is a splendid one to beholdEliseu Gouveia is a splendid one to beholdEliseu Gouveia is a splendid one to beholdEliseu Gouveia is a splendid one to beholdEliseu Gouveia is a splendid one to beholdEliseu Gouveia is a splendid one to beholdEliseu Gouveia is a splendid one to beholdEliseu Gouveia is a splendid one to beholdEliseu Gouveia is a splendid one to beholdEliseu Gouveia is a splendid one to beholdEliseu Gouveia is a splendid one to behold

Quote:
Originally Posted by TASKER View Post
I looked up Dan Sant who is a Freelance artist from São Vicente, Brazil....

No wonder..
You paid thousands for his art LOL...
Make it American..

Dude, seriously?
__________________
My art, click at your own risk
Eliseu Gouveia is offline  
Old 02-11-2018, 08:54 AM   #27
Scribbly
Registered User
 
Scribbly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wicked Salem, MA
Posts: 4,871
Scribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud ofScribbly has much to be proud of

Quote:
Originally Posted by TASKER View Post
I looked up Dan Sant who is a Freelance artist from São Vicente, Brazil....

No wonder..
You paid thousands for his art LOL...
Make it American..
Ha! 70% of the artists currently working on comics for big American mainstream Publishers are NON- American artists working overseas, dude! Since 1938. Check this out.
Starting for Canada, U.K. , France, Italy, Spain, West Europe, Asia, Philippines, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil and many more.
Art has no borders.
__________________
Style is an intentional restriction.
Scribbly is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 02:51 PM   #28
TASKER
I'm not your DADA
 
TASKER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: im with stupid
Posts: 519
TASKER has disabled reputation

Scribbly---
big American mainstream Publishers YOU are not...

yeah one of my fav artists happens to be Esteban Maroto ...




Eliseu Gouveia ..Yeah? and...??
__________________
+
i don't apologize- im sorry but thatz just how i am-
TASKER is offline  
Old 02-12-2018, 03:32 PM   #29
Bishop
Registered User
 
Bishop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Kholinar, Alethkar
Posts: 6,096
Bishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud ofBishop has much to be proud of

Wow, that’s about the most ignorant post I’ve seen in here for a loooong time.
__________________
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous." -Anonymous
Bishop is online now  
Old 02-12-2018, 05:46 PM   #30
TASKER
I'm not your DADA
 
TASKER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: im with stupid
Posts: 519
TASKER has disabled reputation

Oh snap... I was addressing the wrong party here.. L@M...

I digress like poop going back into the bunghole..

Never mind carry on..
__________________
+
i don't apologize- im sorry but thatz just how i am-
TASKER is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
© 1997-2015 Digital Webbing, LLC