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Old 03-30-2013, 03:37 PM   #16
Renae De Liz
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Originally Posted by GDFTony View Post
I don't have much experience with Kickstarter, but it's kind of a buyer beware situation. That's the way I've always taken it, same with everything else I have bought on the internet (except from amazon).

Do your research, if you feel like it's a good investment then do it. But you're donating/investing money, there's always a chance the project is going to fail everyone should know this. These people aren't milking you out of money, you actively have to choose to give it away.

I think it's a great way for indie anyone to get funding, it looks like if you use it right (start off small and build fan bases, become reliable and consistent on deliveries) there is enough forms of feedback for that positivity to spread on the internet. I think it's a great tool that kinda "levels" the playing field so to speak.

But like I said, you have to be aware theres always a risk when dealing with individuals and not established companies.
All so true!

And this part: " you have to be aware theres always a risk when dealing with individuals and not established companies." is also true from the campaigners perspective. You can rely on a Publisher to act professional, but when you're dealing with hundreds (sometimes thousands) of people, you come across a LOT of different personalities that you need to deal with on a daily basis. It can be rough.
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:26 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins View Post
Wow, I did not know this. So if I sell a comic on comixology for a dollar, I'll just get 35 cents per issue BEFORE the publisher takes his cut?

I always thought comixology and other similar apps sort of paid apple "rent" to keep their apps up and running. I didn't know apple took a cut of every sale. And I never dreamed their cut would be thirty-freaking-percent of every sale! Those are mafia rates!
yeah. apple being apple. It started with Itunes. everything on itunes gets this 30%. And then it applied to everything on ipads. A platform licensing fee.
Nintendo, and the like always did this too.
Android followed suit and everything you buy on android 30% goes to them as well.
Microsoft did not have this for the longest time on their tablets. I imagine this is largely the reason Windows 8 is a thing. they probably also now charge a platform fee.
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:35 PM   #18
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it is a clearly disproportional risk however. Its like saying we dont need child labor laws, because if kids are willing to work, its on them.
"buyer beware" is simply not valid in a digital world. Its too easy to make a fake accounts, fake ids.

No accountability will equal massive fraud. And then no one will be able to use it, once its reputation is ruined. We all use Amazon, because we trust it.
Kickstarter really needs to step up and start enforcing some real control over what they allow.
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Old 03-30-2013, 04:58 PM   #19
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Does KS allow you to simply not accept international backers for certain rewards?
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Old 03-30-2013, 05:11 PM   #20
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it is a clearly disproportional risk however. Its like saying we dont need child labor laws, because if kids are willing to work, its on them.
"buyer beware" is simply not valid in a digital world. Its too easy to make a fake accounts, fake ids.

No accountability will equal massive fraud. And then no one will be able to use it, once its reputation is ruined. We all use Amazon, because we trust it.
Kickstarter really needs to step up and start enforcing some real control over what they allow.
Exactly. It's only going to take one class action suit against kickstarter to end this kind of thing forever, and IMO such a lawsuit is long overdue. I appreciate that for someone who is responsible and conscientious like Renae, who will work hard to fulfill her reward promises, it's not free money.

But people like Renae aren't the problem. The problem is scammers who never had any intention of fulfilling their reward obligations in the first place.

And as you say, it's pretty easy for them to switch up IDs and go to the well again and again. IMO, KS as it is currently constituted has no hope of long-term survival. Even having said all that, I think it's potentially a great tool. I just think the risk of it collapsing will be decreased if it is used for what it was originally intended for: funding small projects. It was never intended to be used as alternative funding for multi-million dollar movies and video games, and expanding into that area is going to lead to its downfall, IMO.
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Old 03-30-2013, 06:02 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Renae De Liz
(and I already KNOW you hate it Amon )
Hate is too strong a word. Closer to the truth would be that I'm amused KS keeps manifesting itself as the exact scammer cesspool I predicted it would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renae De Liz
Kickstarter is NEVER a free money for all. You have to work hard for it.
Unless you just take the money and run. Which is happening more often.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Renae De Liz
But you cannot deny that it's a POWERFUL option to get your book made
You know what's an even more POWERFUL option to get your book made? Making your book. As for shopping it to publishers, the heartbreak comes with aiming at trademark placeholders like Marvel and DC, pay-to-play deals like Image, or fly-by-night operations like Monsterverse.
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Old 03-30-2013, 06:19 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Renae De Liz View Post
Yeah I read about his issues with International Shipping. I'm happy to see that he's trying hard to find a solution to fix the mistake and not run away from responsibility. I hope you get your book soon!
Yes, he has seemed very honest and patient (well - backers too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renae De Liz View Post
I had horrible problems with International shipping. Not only were they WAY more expensive than I thought, but I've repeatedly send Int. Books only to have them repeatedly never arrive to the backer. Or snapped up by customs. Int. Shipping is no joke.
Once he asked suggestions about local delivery (by countries) - and I said exactly that: the service here is more expensive and unreliable.

I wish everything end well ...

Daniel
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Old 03-30-2013, 08:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amon View Post
Hate is too strong a word. Closer to the truth would be that I'm amused KS keeps manifesting itself as the exact scammer cesspool I predicted it would.

Unless you just take the money and run. Which is happening more often.
Okay, amused then! I swear it's my goal in life now to get you to run a Kickstarter!

I haven't actually heard of a SUCCESSFUL Kickstarter scam yet (the ones I've found all were shut down early). I've heard of people running into horrible problems, delaying things badly (or to the point that there's no return) But I haven't seen one yet in which there was NO intent from the campaigner to ever return on their project. I'm sure it may have happened, but I must disagree that KS is riddled with scammers.

However, I DO agree that the potential for scammers could be big, so I do understand where you and others are coming from, and it's a valid worry. However I think that huge potential is tempered somewhat by the fact that people who often make the BIG BUCKS are well known, and those people are most likely NOT going to risk their reputation to scam people and run off. You need a powerful base to get that many backers.

Quote:
You know what's an even more POWERFUL option to get your book made? Making your book. As for shopping it to publishers, the heartbreak comes with aiming at trademark placeholders like Marvel and DC, pay-to-play deals like Image, or fly-by-night operations like Monsterverse.
You are right again, but consider for some people "making your book" is difficult in that you do not have money, and have NO options but hope a publisher picked them up. For those people Kickstarter can often be their only hope. I do not believe only people who have money should create comics, and I believe Publishers shouldn't be the only authority on what books get made.
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Old 03-30-2013, 08:44 PM   #24
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And regardless of if there's scammers running amok, or what could happen to Kickstarter one day, it has no bearing on if RIGHT NOW it's a valid option or not for a comic book creator to take their title.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsartbr View Post
Yes, he has seemed very honest and patient (well - backers too).



Once he asked suggestions about local delivery (by countries) - and I said exactly that: the service here is more expensive and unreliable.

I wish everything end well ...

Daniel
http://ds.art.br/port
I really hope so! From what I've seen, he's hell bent to get it all fixed somehow. Wasn't he running a second campaign to fix the Int. issue and people shut it down?

Hope all ends well. I know it's not much, but you're awesome for supporting such a cool book.
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Old 03-30-2013, 08:58 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwtape Jenkins View Post
Does KS allow you to simply not accept international backers for certain rewards?
As far as I know that's not an option, but it would be a cool one to add. I don't believe Int. Shipping is that big of an issue for a project unless they've earned a LOT of money and have hundreds of INT books to ship. Then the potential for lost/custom books is higher, then you have to reship them and hope that one will stick. All the while backers get more and more upset at YOU even though you are doing all you can. I can't tell you how difficult Womanthology Int. books have been. I took a lot of steps with Peter Pan to avoid shipping difficulties this time.
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:44 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renae De Liz
for some people "making your book" is difficult in that you do not have money, and have NO options but hope a publisher picked them up.
'Cuz pencils, ink and bristol board are sooooo expensive.
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:57 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amon View Post
'Cuz pencils, ink and bristol board are sooooo expensive.
That's not all that goes into it and you know it, Amon! I do agree with the "If you want to do it, then do it" train of thought though. If you CAN do it without KS then that's awesome. But most need monetary help to complete their project (hiring artists, inkers, colorists, paying for printing).
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:58 AM   #28
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'Cuz pencils, ink and bristol board are sooooo expensive.
That stuff's cheap. It's hiring people who can do cool things with that stuff that's expensive.

We're not all artists.

I tried doing the free collaboration thing for a while and it came to naught. I decided I had to pay to make anything happen. I had to take a second job to get my first comic done. Not all of us have the option of just picking up art supplies and drawing in our spare time.

I bagged on kickstarter here, but that's mostly because I hope it's still around if/when I need it. For the people who actually do need it, it's a great resource. For the large corporations and famous artists swooping in, it's a free money scam.
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Old 03-31-2013, 01:53 AM   #29
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Famous doesn't mean rich or freedom to do whatever they want. Plenty of famous artists we know wish they could get out from Marvel/DC and do creator-owned, but that's a really rough transition for anyone and a big risk, especially if you have a family to take care of.
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:19 AM   #30
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We're not all artists.
Gee, that's too bad.
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