Dark Knight Rises Spoilers Discussion

[Justice41]

Originally Posted by Bishop

No, I don't recall any real monologuing in Memento or Insomnia. Both we're excellent movies. I think the world in general disagrees with your assessment of his storytelling abilities. I think he is one of the best in the business right now. I can think of few that are as good as him.

Germans went along with Hitler. Americans went along with Slavery.
I read somewhere Nolan compared to a Magician, seems apt. hey i'll give him that he didn't cheese up the New Bat franchise. Hopefully whomever takes it over will keep the tone the same. The only Batman comics i liked were the ones with just Bats and Gordon and some low level mystery or crime. Why every movie has to be a huge crisis or event is beyond me. A simple story is a better vehicle for a Batman flick. Not some convoluted and way overdone contrivance of a story.

[cheeseisgood1918]

Originally Posted by Justice41

I think it's the other way around. He's a bad story teller who needs a crutch to help him tell his convoluted stories. Complex often is just convoluted and contrived and convenient. I suppose when you know you aren't going to connect with and trust the viewers to follow the story you use these weird story telling devices that are most commonly used in Plays. Is Nolan from Theater? Did he also have this speechifying thing in that Guy Pierce and Robin Williams flicks he did?

While I've liked several of Nolan's films I have felt this exact way about some of them. Most notably The Prestige. People loved that thing, but I found it pretty disappointing. I think Nolan is a really good filmmaker, but he knows it, and has let it go to his head a bit. Now he thinks he's a lot better than he actually is.

That's kind of a dangerous thing for a filmmaker. M.Knight Shaymalamading-dong is the same way. Before anyone attacks that statement, let me say that I realize Shammy doesn't have half the talent Nolan does, I'm just speaking of similarities in disposition. MKS has a great eye for direction (mostly) and gets some pretty cool shots. He made a film or two that people liked and it went to his head, and now he thinks that he can take a dump on some film stock and it'll be the next great film. And if it isn't, it's because people don't get what he's trying to do. I really hope that doesn't happen to Nolan. Then we get things like that crazy Sci-fi Channel special where Sham tries to convince everyone that he has superpowers and his movies are based on events from his life.... or something. I don't know, I was too busy alternately laughing and vomiting to know what was going on in that special.

I enjoy the hell out of the DK films though. That's the Batman I want to see on film.

[Troy Wall]

Originally Posted by Justice41

Germans went along with Hitler. Americans went along with Slavery.
I read somewhere Nolan compared to a Magician, seems apt. hey i'll give him that he didn't cheese up the New Bat franchise. Hopefully whomever takes it over will keep the tone the same. The only Batman comics i liked were the ones with just Bats and Gordon and some low level mystery or crime. Why every movie has to be a huge crisis or event is beyond me. A simple story is a better vehicle for a Batman flick. Not some convoluted and way overdone contrivance of a story.

A lot more peoples than the Americans have went along with slavery.

I definitely agree about the 'every movie has to be a huge crisis' bit. Like I said earlier, I always just kinda zone out when various high concept Wayne tech is being presented as plot devices like the microwave in BB and the nuclear reactor in TDK.

Although TDK had its fair share of explosions, at least Joker's bombs were on a relatively small scale confined to individual buildings/boats. He didn't have an Gotham extinction level event in play as with BB and TDKR, which worked better.

I think TDKR was hurt by a major lacking of...Batman. With TDK Batman had a great amount of screen time and he did badass shit every time he was present, like the field trip to Japan / skyhook recovery. With TDK, Batman shows up on screen three times and he's confined to the new Batwing 90% of his showing. You can say that they were shooting for a Dark Knight Returns feel, but in the end it wasn't a Dark Knight Returns film...so why restrict Batman's presence so much?

Bruce accrued an enormous amount of bodily injury from the events of BB and TDK...the doctor he saw about his knee rapped off a laundry list of injuries. He had zero cartilage remaining in some areas...evidence of multiple concussive blows...It's just kind of hard to believe he was that fucked up from being Batman for such a relatively short amount of time. It seems like these would be the problems facing a 20 year+ active Batman, not one that defeated Ra's and the Joker and took an eight year vacay.

[Troy Wall]

The movie needed more cow bell, is what I'm saying.

[CHWolf]

Originally Posted by Bishop

Sooooo, what movies do you actually like again?

Plenty. Like Memento, as I previously mentioned.

Originally Posted by Buckyrig

There may have been a lot of computer effects in the movie, but the spinning room wasn't one of them.

Put actors on wires, flip room around, use computer to take wires out.

It's exactly like putting in a muzzle flare, adding an explosion, or erasing a nose, it's a computer effect.

The fact that the room was built, an admirable undertaking on the part of the crew, doesn't mean the fight scene doesn't owe its entire existence to the fact they made it look legit with computers.






FYI...

This is how TDKR ended:

[Troy Wall]

Originally Posted by CHWolf

FYI...

This is how TDKR ended:

Truth.

[Comix Obsession]

There seem to be a lot of opinions going around here, and a lot of them seem to be either misguided attempts at humour or anger-based buzz-words. Fact is, people like Nolan because he's bringing great movies to our cinemas. When movies like 'Step Up: Revolutions' are still being made, we need a director who has the balls to make something a little more intelligent. Nolan knows what he's doing, and if it's gone to his head a little, it certainly doesn't show. Using off-the-cuff analogies about Nolan's fans following him like the Nazis followed Hitler, or complaining about his use of computer effects in a modern movie (that would obviously require computer effects to be made) seem like angry attempts to hit out at a director that is doing something you don't like because you just don't like it. Fine, it's OK not to like Nolan's work, but these strange remarks don't really say anything against his work, they are just little outbursts on a very big Internet.

Basically, it seems everyone here who doesn't like Nolan's work can't actually say why. I'm not asking anyone to really answer this, but it just goes to show that the man knows his craft, and whilst you may not like his work, you can't argue his level of talent.

[Bishop]

Agreed

[Justice41]

Is Nolan British by Chance? I sense another lets defend our countryman thing going on.
*Update*
Yup he is British. If you foreigners continue to defend your own your opinions will become null an void.

[Justice41]

Originally Posted by Comix Obsession

Blah Blah

Comprehension doesn't suit you. Notice Bishop stated the rest of the world doesn't agree with me so i compared his rest of the world with other rest of the world agreements. went over the noggin did it? Absurdity is met with absurdity.

[CHWolf]

Originally Posted by Comix Obsession

There seem to be a lot of opinions going around here, and a lot of them seem to be either misguided attempts at humour or anger-based buzz-words.

This is a crucial flaw in your statements. It's okay for people to say they don't like something and to say a Director/writer/actor/whoever is a hack.

It's not okay (or rather, less genuine) to say everyone who doesn't like it doesn't know what they're saying.

Basically what you've just said is: "Everyone who disagrees with me is misguided and too blinded by anger to make a valid point. By default, I win."


This is what every discussion on the quality of a product is eventually reduced to.

Person 1: This is great.
Person 2: Eh, I don't like it.
Person 1: No, it's great. This is a fact.
Person 2: Well, here are some problems...
Person 1: It's great. Fact.


You're probably a hair away from saying anyone who doesn't like Nolan's work is "just jealous".

Originally Posted by Comix Obsession

Fact is, people like Nolan because he's bringing great movies to our cinemas.

You act like 100% of the world's population has seen his movies and like 98% adore him. I don't think most people in the world disagree with me. I think most of the people in the world don't know who he is.

Actually, the fact is that the smaller percentage of people who watch his films even know his name. (The majority see Batman on the posters, not a white-haired British director.) Of that percentage who knew who Nolan was going in, an even smaller group saw the film just because Nolan made it.

You act like Nolan can spin straw into gold. Sorry, but he's started out working with gold in respect to his blockbusters.

Give him something OTHER than the two most recognizable fictional characters in modern comics and then tell me he's the reason people went to the theater.

Give him a budget that DOESN'T provide for building neat spinning magician's toys and then tell me he's the reason people saw the movie.


I guess we sort of saw this already with his early work. I don't recall people flocking to theatres.

Originally Posted by Comix Obsession

Nolan knows what he's doing, and if it's gone to his head a little, it certainly doesn't show.

Please. The man's chief concern going into TDKR was that he'd get "bored" halfway through.

Find an average person who can even comprehend themselves getting "bored" making a major motion picture about fucking Batman.

Originally Posted by Comix Obsession

[...]or complaining about his use of computer effects in a modern movie[...]

Nobody did this.

What you're thinking of is when I said people saw Inception because it was a delivery system for "mind-bending" special effects.

Which it was in its entirity. I defy anyone here to name their favorite part of the film and not have it be effect-related.

My favorite part of Jaws? When they're talking about the sunken ship and Quint relates the horror that ensued.

My favorite part of Alien? When the first victim suddenly starts thrashing around with no previous warning. When the alien, the effect, pops out, it's actually the END of a terrifying scene.

My favorite part of Inception? When they walked up a vertical street.

Originally Posted by Comix Obsession

(that would obviously require computer effects to be made)

You're saying all modern movies require computer effects.

Is that your actual opinion? I don't want to just seize on that as you might've misspoke.

Otherwise I would've noted that as a problem festering in the film industry at the moment. "Why would anyone see that? There's no CGI effects."

Originally Posted by Comix Obsession

Fine, it's OK not to like Nolan's work, but these strange remarks don't really say anything against his work, they are just little outbursts on a very big Internet.

What has been said about his work that isn't about his work?

When I said the stories and characters were dull and useless or that his current films tread water between explosions, was that not about his work...?

Originally Posted by Comix Obsession

Basically, it seems everyone here who doesn't like Nolan's work can't actually say why.

The stories and characters are dull and useless and his current films tread water between explosions.

Also, the storywork (not entirely his work) is loose and sketchy. Why does anyone in Inception join DiCaprio in cleaning up his mess? How many times do we have to see the exact same story elements popping up here and there in all three Bat-Films?

I'm serious.

Gordon getting shot. Bruce being shown new toys by Fox. A member of the Al Ghul family blowing up in a crash. A weaponized Wanye Industries 'mistake'. Batman going into hiding/running at the end. Trips to Asia. I could go on, but that's just off the top of my head in these fifteen seconds...

Originally Posted by Comix Obsession

you can't argue his level of talent.

Yes, I can. Just saying I can't doesn't make it true.

[Buckyrig]

Originally Posted by CHWolf

Also, the storywork (not entirely his work) is loose and sketchy. Why does anyone in Inception join DiCaprio in cleaning up his mess?

It's a heist movie. People join up for the same reason they do in any heist movie, a cut and the challenge of the "impossible score".

[Justice41]

Got This from Nolan's IMDB Bio. Seems Nolan is a one trick pony.

Trade Mark
Begins his movies and introduces his main characters with a close up of their hands performing an action.

Frequently casts Christian Bale, Michael Caine, Gary Oldman, Morgan Freeman, Cillian Murphy, Tom Hardy, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Marion Cotillard, Ken Watanabe, Mark Boone Junior and Larry Holden. As of 2012, Caine will have appeared in 5 of Nolan's films, the most of any single actor.

Usually starts films with a flashback or a scene from the end of the movie

When shooting a dialogue scene, the actors are often framed in wide close-up with a shallow depth of field to blur out the background.

Films conclude with the two central characters discussing the preceding events and the results which have stemmed from said events.

Non-linear timelines (Following (1998), Memento (2000), The Prestige (2006))

Crosscutting several scenes of parallel action to build to a climax (The Prestige (2006), The Dark Knight (2008)).

His endings have a recurring theme of justified dishonesty. (Examples: Guy Pearce's "Do I lie to myself to be happy" monologue in Memento (2000), Michael Caine's closing remark that the audience "wants to be fooled" from The Prestige (2006) and Christian Bale's rationale of how the citizens of Gotham City "deserve to have their faith rewarded" at the end of The Dark Knight (2008)).

His films usually revolve around characters that are afflicted with some kind of psychological disorder. (Examples: Guy Pearce's short-term memory "condition" in Memento (2000), Al Pacino's titular sleeping disorder in Insomnia (2002), Christian Bale's phobia of bats in Batman Begins (2005) and Aaron Eckhart's dual personality in The Dark Knight (2008) and Leonardo DiCaprio not being able to grasp onto reality in Inception (2010)).

The storyline in his films usually involves a determined character seeking vengeance over the death of a loved one. (Examples: 'Guy Pearce' in Memento (2000), Christian Bale in Batman Begins (2005), Hugh Jackman in The Prestige (2006) and Aaron Eckhart in The Dark Knight (2008)).

Often casts actors in roles contrary to their usual screen persona

Frequently uses hard cuts when transitioning to the next scenes. This is most prominent in his films from 'Batman Begins' onward, especially in 'The Dark Knight', where, in some instances, the hard cuts he uses will go so far as to nearly cut off character's lines in order to quickly and efficiently get to the next scene.

All of his films contain a major reference to the film prior to it

His protagonists will often resort to tactics of physical or psychological torture to gain information (e.g. (SPOILERS) in 'Batman Begins', Batman uses the hallucinagenic fear compound on Jonathan Crane in order to gain information about his "boss"; in 'The Prestige', Angier buries Borden's assistant alive in order to get Borden to talk; in 'The Dark Knight', Batman throws Salvatore Maroni off a building, breaking his legs, in order to gain information about The Joker; in the same movie, Harvey Dent puts a gun to one of the Joker's henchman and flips a coin for his life every second he doesn't talk to scare him into talking; in 'Insomnia', Dormer drives into oncoming traffic in order to scare the victim's best friend into talking).

Employs non-linear storytelling techniques, often flipping around the three acts of a movie to tell the story in an interesting fashion.

Characters in films often gain a physical or psychological handicap in the course of the film (SPOILERS: in 'The Prestige', Angier gets a crippled leg while Borden loses two fingers; in 'The Dark Knight', Salvatore Maroni gets a crippled leg; in 'Insomnia', Dormer gets insomnia; in 'Memento', Leonard gains a memory handicap, the event of which is shown in flashback during the film)

His films often have obsessive protagonists with a troubled past, who are obsessed to gain justice by any means in life (e.g. Leonard in_Memento (2000)_, Al Pacino's character in Insomnia (2002),Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins (2005). Also the_Following (1998)_ protagonist and Hugh Jackman in_The Prestige (2006)_ were obsessive)

Lonely troubled protagonists who are unwillingly forced to hide their true identity from the world.

Typically ends his films with a character giving a philosophical monologue

Frequently in his films the protagonists, at some crucial moment, feel let down or betrayed by their mentors whom they have been following blindly and with respect. (e.g. The protagonist being cheated by Cobb in Following (1998), Leonard "discovering" that Teddy is the culprit in Memento (2000), Hilary Swank's character respecting Al Pacino as a great detective in Insomnia (2002) only to find out that he is also flawed, Bruce Wayne and Liam Neeson's character's confrontation in Batman Begins (2005), Cutter not supporting Angier in The Prestige (2006)).

His films' protagonists have mostly lost their loved ones &/or failed in love, a circumstance that causes them turn into malevolent &/or apathetic forever. (e.g. Leonard in Memento (2000) has lost his wife in a brutal murder in the past, Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins (2005) has lost Rachel Dawes' faith in him throughout the film, Borden in The Prestige (2006) does not get his wife's love because of his character's 'act' in the movie and Angier loses his beloved in a mishap during a magic trick, Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight (2008) loses Rachel as well as Bruce Wayne is not able to win her love back)

Often casts non-American actors in American roles. (e.g. Guy Pearce, Christian Bale, Hugh Jackman, Heath Ledger, Cillian Murphy, Liam Neeson, Gary Oldman, Tom Wilkinson)

Uses camera revolving around a character. (The Prestige, The Dark Knight, Memento and Inception)

Displays the title before the end credits (Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, Inception)

The original scores of his films usually play over most of the film, or one piece of music will play over many small scenes, as if they are edited in a montage; there are few moments in his films when there is no music playing in the background.

Characters who are unreliable narrators (e.g. Borden, through his Journal, in "The Prestige", the Joker through his conflicting monologues in "The Dark Knight", and Leonard through his memory problem and 'conditioning' from "Memento").

Very frequently his films contain blackmail, attempted blackmail or a reference to blackmail.

The main characters in all his films are primarily driven by an obsession

His soundtracks are typically score-based. Anytime that a song is heard, its always source music in the sense that we see the characters playing the song from a device ("Non, je ne regrette rien" by Edith Piaf used as a kick in "Inception")

His Films almost always end with the characters fate open to interpretation

Enormous visual scope and heavy emphasis on Location and Architecture

Villains in His films often threaten to harm the Hero's friends or family

His Antagonists are often motivated by a philosophical belief rather than Money

Recurring Theme of Betrayal (Friends and mentors often turn out to be untrustworthy or outright treacherous)

Often works with editor Lee Smith, composer 'Hans Zimmer',cinematographer Wally Pfister, production designer'Nathan Crowley' and wife-producer Emma Thomas.

Often ends his films with a jump cut to black (Memento (2000), Batman Begins (2005), The Dark Knight (2008), The Prestige (2006) and, most significantly, in Inception (2010)).

[kamikaze]

i enjoyed it. The second was the best of the three to me, but it was a good send off. Some plots were rushed a bit for me but Nolan was trying to wrap it up for Bruce Wayne. didnt like Bane's voice, though.

Didnt it say in Batman Begins: Theatricality and deception are powerful agents. I think Nolan will come back with another after they do this Justice league movie, but with Blake now..Call it the Shadow of the Bat or something

[Mwynn]

Originally Posted by kamikaze

i enjoyed it. The second was the best of the three to me, but it was a good send off. Some plots were rushed a bit for me but Nolan was trying to wrap it up for Bruce Wayne. didnt like Bane's voice, though.

Didnt it say in Batman Begins: Theatricality and deception are powerful agents. I think Nolan will come back with another after they do this Justice league movie, but with Blake now..Call it the Shadow of the Bat or something

It would be a mistake for DC to allow a Batman movie to be made without Bruce Wayne. They are going to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch again.