critiquing plots?

[fletch137]

What's the best way to present and critique a plot? Or, more accurately, the way we present our plots.

For the most part, C&Cs here are over technical aspects of the page. There aren't many chances to learn about story development, introducing subplots, or any of the other aspects that we (I) should be working on.

So, assuming my individual pages were perfect (hah!) how should I go about presenting a sample story or even multiple issues and get some good insights into how I should be arranging things to make for stronger storytelling?

Would a page-by-page breakdown be useful? I could say stuff like "page 6 cuts to Dr. Skull's lair where he enacts phase two of his plan. Here the stakes are raised as his screen reveals the tsunami growing off the coast of Florida."

Then you guys would reply with comments like "this reveal would be better saved for the second third of the book to create a dramatic peak for the issue" or "but you didn't leave Capt. Thunder in an interesting way. His scene just peters out and suddenly we're at Skull Mountain."

Would that be helpful? Would anybody comment on a presentation like that? Does anybody thinks it's a bad idea to post entire stories to a public forum?

[Magnus]

Me personally would rather give an entire story to someone I trust and know will be able to critique the text without being "too nice", or to superficial. Like I wouldn't trust my mom, or any person on an internet forum. The good thing about mom, though, is that she'll praise the project and NOT steal the idea/story...

I have no problem with giving up parts of a story to critique openly on a forum, and then you can find the one (or more) critiquee who's actually thorough, and then ask if he/she'd like to review the whole thing.

Just my two cents...

[Lee Nordling]

Originally Posted by fletch137

What's the best way to present and critique a plot? Or, more accurately, the way we present our plots.

For the most part, C&Cs here are over technical aspects of the page. There aren't many chances to learn about story development, introducing subplots, or any of the other aspects that we (I) should be working on.

So, assuming my individual pages were perfect (hah!) how should I go about presenting a sample story or even multiple issues and get some good insights into how I should be arranging things to make for stronger storytelling?

Would a page-by-page breakdown be useful? I could say stuff like "page 6 cuts to Dr. Skull's lair where he enacts phase two of his plan. Here the stakes are raised as his screen reveals the tsunami growing off the coast of Florida."

Then you guys would reply with comments like "this reveal would be better saved for the second third of the book to create a dramatic peak for the issue" or "but you didn't leave Capt. Thunder in an interesting way. His scene just peters out and suddenly we're at Skull Mountain."

Would that be helpful? Would anybody comment on a presentation like that? Does anybody thinks it's a bad idea to post entire stories to a public forum?

Lotsa questions. Lotsa answers.

1) To present a plot, write it well and compellingly. If it's not, folks should identify (as well as they can) what the writer was trying to accomplish and how he/she failed at it.

2) Actually, there've been many discussions on subplots, story and character arcs, etc., as well suggestions for what books are good (and bad) to read. You probably need to go further back into the archives to find them, but there're there. Who knows, perhaps you could even revive the discussions. Personally, I crit for craft more than story...but that's because I think that helps writers discipline themselves better so that when they write something that's good, they've done it on purpose (which isn't always the case).

3) Your paragraph beginning with "So, assuming my individual pages were perfect" makes no sense; the question isn't clear. The simple answer is: you post it for feedback. But I presume you knew that, so maybe there's a different question you were intending to ask.

4) "Would a page-by-page breakdown be useful?" Um, it depends what you're looking for feedback on. If you want to know if your plot is well-paced for the overall story length, then yes, this is a good thing to do. What's important to know is that you're not going to get many folks commenting on every aspect of everything. If you post a longer script, for example, most people aren't going to crit it panel for panel; they may tackle the story idea and dramatic progression, and they might point out some stuff they like and stuff they didn't think worked. Personally, I've been grabbing first sentences, first panels, or first pages and tackling those for technical notes. So...if you want to know whether your story idea holds up, just write a pitch, and you'll find out. If you want to know if the pacing works, post an outline. If you want to know whether a story is progressing dramatically, post the script. We're reactive to what you do.

5) "Does anybody thinks it's a bad idea to post entire stories to a public forum?" We've answered this before. Look it up...but the answer is: if you're looking for a pat on the back, yes; if you're looking for help to make your work better, no (because we're more interested in writing our stuff than stealing yours).

--Lee

[Eugene Selassie]

I come from the Grant Morrison school of story ideas...

If someone steals one, hell, I've got 200 more.

[KHudd]

Originally Posted by Eugene Selassie

I come from the Grant Morrison school of story ideas...

If someone steals one, hell, I've got 200 more.

Where is this school i've never heard of it.

[fletch137]

Wait a minute. You came here with a thousand pitches and now you're down to only 200 stories? You better get crackin', bro.

Seriously, though, you're right about Morrison. The man's got so many story ideas he throws plots away just in casual conversation. Superman would turn to Batman and say something like "that was harder than the time Despero replaced his third eye with one of my Kryptonian eyes and gained telepathic heat vision"...and that's all you'd ever here about that.

But in any case, I'm not really concerned about someone stealing stories here. It just doesn't seem worth the effort to steal an idea and then still have to do all the work to write the damn thing out.

Personally, my only concern about posting stories here is that I may not then get the chance to see them as completed stories. It feels kind of tacky to take a story I've released to the public and ask someone to publish it. That's the only reason I could think of that I wouldn't really want to publish a full issue here.

[Fred Duran]

Originally Posted by fletch137

Personally, my only concern about posting stories here is that I may not then get the chance to see them as completed stories. It feels kind of tacky to take a story I've released to the public and ask someone to publish it. That's the only reason I could think of that I wouldn't really want to publish a full issue here.

Yeah, there are a few publishers that won't publish something if it's appeared in any public place (especially the Internet) prior to submitting. You MIGHT be able to get away with just the script (as opposed to finished pages or any combination of art+lettering), but it's not worth the risk unless you know for a fact the publisher doesn't care. That's one of the reasons I stopped posting scripts up here, because - NOT to sound conceited - everything I write, for at least the time that I'm writing it, seems like it's something that can be drawn and submitted. Granted, most of the time it ends up NOT able to be drawn and submitted, but for the 2-3% of the time that it's actually good stuff, I'll keep it to myself and keep the option of submitting.

Fred

[Iron Syndicate]

Originally Posted by KHudd

Where is this school i've never heard of it.

Glasgow.

[KHudd]

I use to live there in the winter it was a very nice place.

[Steven Forbes]

In response to the actual question, you could also hire a freelance editor. This way, you get everything you're looking for: craft, technial aspects, plot, structure, and story.

The only things are these: it's not a fast process, and it's not a cheap prospect. When I say 'not cheap,' I'm saying it's not free. Remember, I said 'hire.'

How expensive is it? Well, that depends on who you engage.

It's just an option, and something for everyone to think about.

And yes, I do edit.

-Steven

[Fred Duran]

Or, if you don't have the money/don't want to hire someone, try to find a friend who is creative and/or likes to write and bounce ideas off each other. It's free, and it's a hell of a lot of fun (I did this with a friend of mine for a few years a while ago).

[The Anti-crest]

Originally Posted by Eugene Selassie

I come from the Grant Morrison school of story ideas...

If someone steals one, hell, I've got 200 more.

Neil Gaiman: Ideas are the easy part.

[Lee Nordling]

Originally Posted by The Anti-crest

Neil Gaiman: Ideas are the easy part.

Yep.

Getting them to be what you imagine they could be is the hard part.

--Lee

[fletch137]

I'm going to give it a try and see if anything constructive comes of it.

Please check out my plot sample here to offer a critique.