Comics or sequential art?

JamieRoberts · 09-24-2007, 04:49 PM

So, having heard the death knell for the industry a decade ago, and to some degree we hear it every week from somewhere, it got me thinking.

If you really think about it, do you want comics to survive, or is it the practice of sequential art you're concerned with?

What I mean is, if the worst came to the worst and the major comic book publishers went out of business, would you lament the death of the continuing series and the characters, or would the sheer dearth of sequential art be the real kicker?

Personally, I'd miss the sequential art. It would no doubt survive to some degree no matter the circumstances, but the artform is bigger than the product.

Newt · 09-24-2007, 04:52 PM

Well sure. I don't care too much if Superman and Wolverine survive, but I want sequential art to keep going, as I believe it is useful and worthwhile medium.

xombey · 09-24-2007, 04:59 PM

it would probably serve the art better if the business disappeared or had to reinvent itself. the big 2, mvl more openly, are more concerned with the viability of characters they can license, so they will always look to keep the cycle going. and when you have to update a character created 40, 50 or 60 yrs ago you limit yourself and the creative growth of your industry. consider how much tv you'd watch if dallas the dukes of hazzard and the incredible hulk were still on in prime time. that's sort of what marvel and dc are doing. if one of them would purchase fantagraphics or drawn and quarterly, that would be the beginning o9f a better relationship between the art and the industry.

Newt · 09-24-2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xombey

it would probably serve the art better if the business disappeared or had to reinvent itself. the big 2, mvl more openly, are more concerned with the viability of characters they can license, so they will always look to keep the cycle going. and when you have to update a character created 40, 50 or 60 yrs ago you limit yourself and the creative growth of your industry. consider how much tv you'd watch if dallas the dukes of hazzard and the incredible hulk were still on in prime time. that's sort of what marvel and dc are doing. if one of them would purchase fantagraphics or drawn and quarterly, that would be the beginning o9f a better relationship between the art and the industry.

Maybe if some of US would purchase Fantagraphics or Drawn & Quarterly it might be more helpful to the relationship between art and industry.

If, say, Marvel bought Fantagraphics, they would just Marvelize it. DC and Marvel will continue as they have until their management thinks it's a good (profitable) idea to change, which won't happen unless they see that more money can be made by publishing fresh new comics.

Lee Nordling · 09-24-2007, 05:25 PM

Sequential art is doing FINE.

OGNs & manga continue to be the fastest growing category in bookstores, and everybody's gearing up for that. The shakedown won't be pretty, but it'll weed out the material that doesn't belong in bookstores.

Even though I've compared to the Direct Market to buggy whips, that isn't going to happen for a while, not as long as there's a dedicated fan base that will still support the specialty shop market/comic book stores.

The shakedown WILL be interesting...especially for creators who'll have to learn the commercial sensibilities of the mainstream publishing world/the Trade.

For example: how many of you think superheroes are a popular medium in the trade? Hold up your hands!

Let's take a moment to separate the question from the answer/thoughts below...

Okay, how many of you have EVER been in a bookstore with a superhero genre section?

Hmm...I don't see any hands up.

Nope, the graphic novel section isn't a superhero section. OGNs are a medium; superheroes are a genre.

Okay, yes, superhero novels (not graphic novels or collected editions) are often found in fantasy and science fiction sections, a decided subgenre...and not very much of it is in there, is it?

And what superhero titles ARE in the prose sections are mostly books based on licensed properties, characters that are already in the culture: Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, X-Men, etc.

Not many NEW superhero novels being published for this market, are there?

That's because it's not a mainstream genre...and comics creators who want to succeed in the Trade will have to focus on creating material that makes more sense for that market.

I don't have anything against superheroes--in fact, I love the best of them--but I'm really looking forward to the sequential art medium not being constantly compared to its most popular Direct Market genre.

And yes, we're getting there.

Sloooowly.

--Lee

xombey · 09-24-2007, 05:42 PM

the bookstores have to also adjust too. i bought spent (way overrated), a "mature" themed gn, in the same section as graphic novels gear3d towards kids (naratu, dragonball z) i think it would be better if maybe you could find a horror gn in the horror section instead of the gn ghetto.

i also think too many people ignore the impact of comic strips. how many adults read, cut out and decorate their cubicles with dilbert and cathy comic strips. yeah, i hate them, but a lot of people out there relate to them...

JamieRoberts · 09-24-2007, 05:46 PM

See, this is what I was hoping for when I asked. I don't believe for a second that sequential art will die out, I mean, it's been around since cavemen painted on cave walls. I just think that when you hear all of these voices saying comics are doomed, they are thinking of comics as Direct Market books, or the stuff in the Top 100. (Same thing, I know.)

Comics aren't doomed, because comics are far more than any one genre, far more than two publishers.

D.J. Coffman · 09-24-2007, 05:49 PM

There will always be comics... especially as long as I'm alive!

W. Smith · 09-24-2007, 05:55 PM

Direct Market—Down Slide
Sequential Art—Stable
Book Market—Trending up
BIG 2—fat and lazy
Change—Coming
Evolution—Slow change
Mutation—Fast Change
Comics—Evolving and Mutating
Independent—lean and mean
Survival of the fittest—Darwin is right

I believe, in my lifetime, I'm 35, we will see a new genesis in both sequential art and comics overall. Comics, especially the established characters will eventually only be readable to the most diehard fans. My kids, god bless them, children of an avid comic book enthusiast for most of their formative years, have managed not to be corrupted and live largely comic book free lives.

They talk to me often about the movies, TV shows and video games and the differences between those entities and the true histories (as if they existed), but not one of them has been brought to the comic books even with an avid collecting parent and all of the mainstream hype and marketing for said properties. They don't even collect action figures, despite my very vocal protests, both of my sons think those are childish and my daughter gave up sailor moon when she gave up Barbie (I had a couple of holdover years with yu-gi-oh, dragonball z and pokemon, but alas, it was short-lived we don’t even buy Shonen Jump anymore). In short comics have missed an entire generation…

I guess what I am trying to say is that the independent market is where it is at. What once spawned the greatest creations of the genre is now busy working on the next big thing. Those involved are you and me. It will be the innovators among us that set the tone and pace for the next revolution. I believe that Marvel and DC are out-of-shape, out-of-date, and out-of-touch monstrosities that will be left behind. They will restructure to try and compete, but to no avail.

JamieRoberts · 09-24-2007, 06:21 PM

At the risk of derailing my own thread... I noticed recently that Zuda have got their press ads ready. So Zuda, DC's 'other brand' experiment/industry-shaking business venture into webcomics, is going to change comics entirely, is it?

Not when you read that the press ads are going in the pages of... DC's books! Wow, that'll bring the new readers in. Even if every DC reader checked out Zuda as a result, DC are just recycling the same readership. Is it so prohibitive to advertise in mainstream magazines, newspapers, etc? It's a classic example of the rut this industry is in, and the narrow thinking it generates.

W. Smith, I dearly hope you're right about the new genesis thingy. Webcomics are certainly one avenue well worth persuing. They are seqential art, and as valid as printed books in terms of the future of the medium. Print will always have a place, of course, it just needs a kick.

kdmelrose · 09-24-2007, 04:53 PM

Sequential art isn't going anywhere. The industry may evolve or fall apart or limp along, but the artform won't die.

Besides, people have been warning of the death of the comics industry since at least the early '70s. Yet here it is, lumps and all.

Paul Sanderson · 09-25-2007, 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kdmelrose

Sequential art isn't going anywhere. The industry may evolve or fall apart or limp along, but the artform won't die.

Besides, people have been warning of the death of the comics industry since at least the early '70s. Yet here it is, lumps and all.

What he said.

heartofglitter · 09-25-2007, 04:40 AM

Agreed. I'll never stop drawing comics!

SMT · 09-25-2007, 01:52 PM

I do hope the industry thrives so that its professionals, me included, can make a good living at it. But I'm not so sure that the big two care so much anymore. It seems to me that there are some pretty easy fixes that are being overlooked. Fixes that although may not save the industry would certainly help. It sometimes looks as though they don't want to sell their comics hehe.

09-24-2007, 04:49 PM	#1
JamieRoberts Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 3,689	Comics or sequential art? So, having heard the death knell for the industry a decade ago, and to some degree we hear it every week from somewhere, it got me thinking. If you really think about it, do you want comics to survive, or is it the practice of sequential art you're concerned with? What I mean is, if the worst came to the worst and the major comic book publishers went out of business, would you lament the death of the continuing series and the characters, or would the sheer dearth of sequential art be the real kicker? Personally, I'd miss the sequential art. It would no doubt survive to some degree no matter the circumstances, but the artform is bigger than the product.

09-24-2007, 05:25 PM	#5
Lee Nordling Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Long Pond, PA Posts: 1,461	The status of sequential art Sequential art is doing FINE. OGNs & manga continue to be the fastest growing category in bookstores, and everybody's gearing up for that. The shakedown won't be pretty, but it'll weed out the material that doesn't belong in bookstores. Even though I've compared to the Direct Market to buggy whips, that isn't going to happen for a while, not as long as there's a dedicated fan base that will still support the specialty shop market/comic book stores. The shakedown WILL be interesting...especially for creators who'll have to learn the commercial sensibilities of the mainstream publishing world/the Trade. For example: how many of you think superheroes are a popular medium in the trade? Hold up your hands! Let's take a moment to separate the question from the answer/thoughts below... Okay, how many of you have EVER been in a bookstore with a superhero genre section? Hmm...I don't see any hands up. Nope, the graphic novel section isn't a superhero section. OGNs are a medium; superheroes are a genre. Okay, yes, superhero novels (not graphic novels or collected editions) are often found in fantasy and science fiction sections, a decided subgenre...and not very much of it is in there, is it? And what superhero titles ARE in the prose sections are mostly books based on licensed properties, characters that are already in the culture: Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, X-Men, etc. Not many NEW superhero novels being published for this market, are there? That's because it's not a mainstream genre...and comics creators who want to succeed in the Trade will have to focus on creating material that makes more sense for that market. I don't have anything against superheroes--in fact, I love the best of them--but I'm really looking forward to the sequential art medium not being constantly compared to its most popular Direct Market genre. And yes, we're getting there. Sloooowly. --Lee

09-24-2007, 05:55 PM	#9
W. Smith W. Smith Publications Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: DFW TX Posts: 108	Direct Market—Down Slide Sequential Art—Stable Book Market—Trending up BIG 2—fat and lazy Change—Coming Evolution—Slow change Mutation—Fast Change Comics—Evolving and Mutating Independent—lean and mean Survival of the fittest—Darwin is right I believe, in my lifetime, I'm 35, we will see a new genesis in both sequential art and comics overall. Comics, especially the established characters will eventually only be readable to the most diehard fans. My kids, god bless them, children of an avid comic book enthusiast for most of their formative years, have managed not to be corrupted and live largely comic book free lives. They talk to me often about the movies, TV shows and video games and the differences between those entities and the true histories (as if they existed), but not one of them has been brought to the comic books even with an avid collecting parent and all of the mainstream hype and marketing for said properties. They don't even collect action figures, despite my very vocal protests, both of my sons think those are childish and my daughter gave up sailor moon when she gave up Barbie (I had a couple of holdover years with yu-gi-oh, dragonball z and pokemon, but alas, it was short-lived we don’t even buy Shonen Jump anymore). In short comics have missed an entire generation… I guess what I am trying to say is that the independent market is where it is at. What once spawned the greatest creations of the genre is now busy working on the next big thing. Those involved are you and me. It will be the innovators among us that set the tone and pace for the next revolution. I believe that Marvel and DC are out-of-shape, out-of-date, and out-of-touch monstrosities that will be left behind. They will restructure to try and compete, but to no avail. Last edited by W. Smith; 09-24-2007 at 05:58 PM.

09-24-2007, 04:53 PM	#11
kdmelrose Pope of Appalachia Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: In the conservatory, with a candlestick Posts: 7,567	Sequential art isn't going anywhere. The industry may evolve or fall apart or limp along, but the artform won't die. Besides, people have been warning of the death of the comics industry since at least the early '70s. Yet here it is, lumps and all. __________________ Robot 6 at Comic Book Resources

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09-24-2007, 04:52 PM	#2
Newt Common cold fusion Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: On the mighty Cumberland Posts: 5,163	Well sure. I don't care too much if Superman and Wolverine survive, but I want sequential art to keep going, as I believe it is useful and worthwhile medium.

09-24-2007, 04:59 PM	#3
xombey Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,055	it would probably serve the art better if the business disappeared or had to reinvent itself. the big 2, mvl more openly, are more concerned with the viability of characters they can license, so they will always look to keep the cycle going. and when you have to update a character created 40, 50 or 60 yrs ago you limit yourself and the creative growth of your industry. consider how much tv you'd watch if dallas the dukes of hazzard and the incredible hulk were still on in prime time. that's sort of what marvel and dc are doing. if one of them would purchase fantagraphics or drawn and quarterly, that would be the beginning o9f a better relationship between the art and the industry.

09-24-2007, 05:42 PM	#6
xombey Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,055	the bookstores have to also adjust too. i bought spent (way overrated), a "mature" themed gn, in the same section as graphic novels gear3d towards kids (naratu, dragonball z) i think it would be better if maybe you could find a horror gn in the horror section instead of the gn ghetto. i also think too many people ignore the impact of comic strips. how many adults read, cut out and decorate their cubicles with dilbert and cathy comic strips. yeah, i hate them, but a lot of people out there relate to them...

09-24-2007, 05:46 PM	#7
JamieRoberts Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 3,689	See, this is what I was hoping for when I asked. I don't believe for a second that sequential art will die out, I mean, it's been around since cavemen painted on cave walls. I just think that when you hear all of these voices saying comics are doomed, they are thinking of comics as Direct Market books, or the stuff in the Top 100. (Same thing, I know.) Comics aren't doomed, because comics are far more than any one genre, far more than two publishers.

09-24-2007, 05:49 PM	#8
D.J. Coffman Is a Juggernaut Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 1,672	There will always be comics... especially as long as I'm alive!

09-24-2007, 06:21 PM	#10
JamieRoberts Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 3,689	At the risk of derailing my own thread... I noticed recently that Zuda have got their press ads ready. So Zuda, DC's 'other brand' experiment/industry-shaking business venture into webcomics, is going to change comics entirely, is it? Not when you read that the press ads are going in the pages of... DC's books! Wow, that'll bring the new readers in. Even if every DC reader checked out Zuda as a result, DC are just recycling the same readership. Is it so prohibitive to advertise in mainstream magazines, newspapers, etc? It's a classic example of the rut this industry is in, and the narrow thinking it generates. W. Smith, I dearly hope you're right about the new genesis thingy. Webcomics are certainly one avenue well worth persuing. They are seqential art, and as valid as printed books in terms of the future of the medium. Print will always have a place, of course, it just needs a kick.

09-25-2007, 04:40 AM	#13
heartofglitter Cassandra James Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 571	Agreed. I'll never stop drawing comics!

09-25-2007, 01:52 PM	#14
SMT D.B.Smith Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ca. Posts: 313	I do hope the industry thrives so that its professionals, me included, can make a good living at it. But I'm not so sure that the big two care so much anymore. It seems to me that there are some pretty easy fixes that are being overlooked. Fixes that although may not save the industry would certainly help. It sometimes looks as though they don't want to sell their comics hehe.