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The-Spirit
10-11-2006, 10:43 AM
What if the villian wins?

Can there be good stories done like that?

I think truly the villian can't ever truly win but some ocassions the villian has won and then the hero has to set things right.

The alternate universe stories are like that.

Captian Kirk of the Mirror universe was evil and had won until our Kirk defeated him.

The Justice Lords had won in "A Better World" until the Justice League set it right.

Lex Luthor had won in "Brave New Metroplis" until Superman made it right.

A well known comic artist once said that he hated the super villian comics of the 70's because the villian had to win to make the comic work, and it didn't. You want to see good triumph and evil lose, noone is rooting for Hitler.

Can the villian Win and it still be a good story?

Buckyrig
10-11-2006, 11:34 AM
What if the villian wins?

Can there be good stories done like that?

I think truly the villian can't ever truly win but some ocassions the villian has won and then the hero has to set things right.

The alternate universe stories are like that.

Captian Kirk of the Mirror universe was evil and had won until our Kirk defeated him.

The Justice Lords had won in "A Better World" until the Justice League set it right.

Lex Luthor had won in "Brave New Metroplis" until Superman made it right.

A well known comic artist once said that he hated the super villian comics of the 70's because the villian had to win to make the comic work, and it didn't. You want to see good triumph and evil lose, noone is rooting for Hitler.

Can the villian Win and it still be a good story?


Se7ev

Watchmen

JasonM
10-11-2006, 11:38 AM
That painted Loki story from a few years ago, great tradgic ending for a character I previously couldn't care any less for!

Raven
10-11-2006, 12:13 PM
All it takes for the villain to win is to be clear about what his objectives are.

If he just wants to take over the world or kill the hero, then no, he can never win.

If he wants to meet a bad girl, start an evil family and steal a million dollars, he can easily win.

It's about setting attainable goals. :)

The-Spirit
10-11-2006, 03:37 PM
from another site9 Reasons To Become an Evil Super Villain

1) You will have more friends than anyone else.

Peter "Spider-Man" Parker was a social outcast. Norman "Green Goblin" Osborne was a rich, popular industrialist. Reed "Mr. Fantastic" Richards was a dorky scientist. Dr. Victor von Doom was a rich socialite. Anyone else sensing a pattern here? Everyone wants to get a little piece of the evil. It is like Starburst!

2) You get to laugh maniacally.

Good guys never get to do this. No one has ever heard Superman or Batman laughing like a maniac and no one ever will. Trust me, this is something everyone wants to do. It is strangely liberating. While you may pass chances to do this every once in a while during your civilian life, you will never get the quantity of opportunities that come with a career in villainy.

3) Suddenly, you will have an unlimited budget for all kinds of cool stuff.

Bad guys are never broke. Not only are they never broke but they always have more resources than the hero could ever possibly hope for. Apparently the villain racket pays very well. It also seems to be recession-proof. I hear that the tax breaks are good also.

4) Hot chicks dig bad guys.

You'll never see an evil villain with a busted ass woman. Sure, these types of dames may be rotten-to-the-core, and out to steal your empire, but you can always kill them if they get out of hand. Studies also show that the breasts of women who hang out with bad guys, on average are two cup sizes bigger than good guys chicks. Studies never lie.

5) You will be safe from everyday accidents.

Evil villains are never killed in car accidents. It just doesn’t happen. You won’t slip in the shower, get smashed by a falling piano, or die of food poisoning. The only way you can be killed is in an explosion created when the hero exposes the one flaw in your plan that no one could ever possibly foresee. Even then…

6) You don’t have to worry about anyone killing you.

Evil villains simply can not be killed. People may think that you are dead, but you will be secretly lounging in an easy chair on your secret desert island hideout ... planning your next caper. The only way that you can truly be taken out is by having another villain, even viler than yourself, kill you and subsequently take over your identity and continue upon your path of world domination.

7) You can kill anybody that you want to.

You won’t go to jail. For some strange reason, cops never come to bust evil villains at their homes even when the evidence is overwhelming. You could kill Superman on a live video feed in front of the entire planet and not one cop would try to arrest you. They can’t even arrest you for the stash of plutonium you have in your shed. It is in the charter when you join the union.

8) You'll get to dress anyway that you want.

You never have to wear a suit and tie again. You can even dress in the most outrageous outfits while demanding that the world bow to your demands and no one will even make the slightest snide comment about your wardrobe choices. This could have something to do with the fact that you can kill anyone that you want and can’t be killed back. Remember, no one ever made fun of Magnetos goofy helmet…

9) No matter how weak and cowardly you really are, you will be more than a match for any hero facing you.

"But, Batman would kick my ass in two shakes of a lamb's tail…" None of that matters. The sheer newness of your evil plot will confuse the hell out of any good guy. As long as you aren’t doing something that has already been done to death (ie: goblin-themed villains) you should have no problem getting your initial plans off the ground.





Happy hunting!

The Scribe
10-11-2006, 10:29 PM
If you have ever read Savage Dragon #10 you would see that it can be done.

I still would like to know what Jimbo Da Mighty Lobster is up to now.

The-Spirit
10-13-2006, 12:59 AM
I think I did read it but it's been years, elucidate?

The Scribe
10-13-2006, 01:41 AM
I think I did read it but it's been years, elucidate?

Read it again. :thumbs:

http://www.savagedragon.com/funnybooks/monthly_200/10.jpg

Biofungus
10-13-2006, 03:22 AM
"our Kirk"?

You can keep him, I prefer Picard. :laugh:

The-Spirit
10-13-2006, 07:55 AM
And then the universe is run by the empire.

Great Bio. :cry:

scherzo
10-13-2006, 04:37 PM
You want to see good triumph and evil lose, noone is rooting for Hitler.
I agree with this. I also absolutely hated Watchmen. :yuk: I can't derive much enjoyment from a story where a guy gets away with pointlessly murdering millions of innocent people. (Watchmen had a hoard of other problems, but I'll save that rant for another day) There can be rare exceptions but generally, the most effective stories will have "good" triumphing over incredible adversity. I realize as a story teller this is the expected norm, but it's the standard for very good reasons. Any variation from this template can be perceived as "innovative" or whatever, but I'll leave that for the evolved hipsters to fawn over. Personally I wanna see Dr. Doom foiled, the Death Star destroyed, Nazis incinerated by a vengeful God etc.

-scherzo

dano
10-13-2006, 04:43 PM
Why should good triumph? It's not like that in the real world. Nor is it natural. It's considerably easier to destroy than to create, chaos invites violence and we are surrounded by chaos. Existence is a brief moment while a vacuum is persistent.

Or maybe thats why people like the hero to win. Its fantasy.

The-Spirit
10-13-2006, 11:18 PM
Why should good triumph? It's not like that in the real world. Nor is it natural. It's considerably easier to destroy than to create, chaos invites violence and we are surrounded by chaos. Existence is a brief moment while a vacuum is persistent.

Or maybe thats why people like the hero to win. Its fantasy.
I would feel cheated if the villian won, you have to have the hero win in the end or it produces a sense of hopelessness in the story. I know there are some comics where it doesn't happen but you want at least for the good guys to have more on they're stack than the bad guys.

I guess that's why I love the old Marvels so much.

Buckyrig
10-14-2006, 01:07 AM
Why should good triumph? It's not like that in the real world. Nor is it natural. It's considerably easier to destroy than to create, chaos invites violence and we are surrounded by chaos. Existence is a brief moment while a vacuum is persistent.

Or maybe thats why people like the hero to win. Its fantasy.

Which is why both forms are valid. Although the latter is geared towards mainstream comics.

Why does the hero win or lose? That's what is important.

I also absolutely hated Watchmen. I can't derive much enjoyment from a story where a guy gets away with pointlessly murdering millions of innocent people. (Watchmen had a hoard of other problems, but I'll save that rant for another day)

You can choose to like what you want, but this statement tells me you didn't "get" Watchmen.

You probably didn't like 1984 either I would guess.

The Scribe
10-14-2006, 01:13 AM
I agree with this. I also absolutely hated Watchmen. :yuk: I can't derive much enjoyment from a story where a guy gets away with pointlessly murdering millions of innocent people. (Watchmen had a hoard of other problems, but I'll save that rant for another day) There can be rare exceptions but generally, the most effective stories will have "good" triumphing over incredible adversity. I realize as a story teller this is the expected norm, but it's the standard for very good reasons. Any variation from this template can be perceived as "innovative" or whatever, but I'll leave that for the evolved hipsters to fawn over. Personally I wanna see Dr. Doom foiled, the Death Star destroyed, Nazis incinerated by a vengeful God etc.

-scherzo


I want you to post, in a new thread, about your reasons Watchmen wasn't a good comic.

Villains win in real life, look at all the criminals that are set free, etc.

Also, when a "hero" doesn't capture or kill a villain they win.

Moonrider
10-14-2006, 01:14 AM
In the real world, win or lose is never a constant. Comic books have endings, while our lives keep going no matter how good or bad the world around us have become. I haven't seen much of such stories in comics, where you really don't know if the heroes will keep winning or end up losing, or whether today's defeat will turn into victory the next day.

scherzo
10-14-2006, 03:32 AM
You can choose to like what you want, but this statement tells me you didn't "get" Watchmen.

You probably didn't like 1984 either I would guess.
Hell I'll be the first person to say I don't get Watchmen. In fact upon it's completion my one repeating thought was an overwhelming "huh". It's just one of a small handful of revered pop culture entities I'm apparently missing the boat on. Pink Floyd, Lord of the Rings, Gundam etc.(I bring an armed guard with me to comic stores:) ) But I think anyone who absorbs a lot of popular entertainment is bound to find themselves at odds with the tide of popular opinion on something eventually.

To be fair to Moore...I read Watchmen only earlier this year after ordering it along with V for Vendetta from Amazon. Not only was I going in with raised expectations from Watchmen's legendary status,(and my admiration for the other Moore books I'd read) but it became very evident about halfway through, how much of the story's details were specifically related to the time of it's initial release. To be honest, most of my problems with the book don't have to do with it being anachronistic, but I don't want to hijack a good thread with my Watchmen heresy. I promise I'll sit down and write detailed review one of these days as Scribe requested. :)

-scherzo

The-Spirit
10-14-2006, 07:26 AM
I liked Watchman for the record, I've read it 3 times. I think I like it more on a level of it showed what you could do with comics. Watchmen took comics to another level in terms of symbolism in storytelling, it has all those double meanings and tips of the hat to the old-school charlton characters and is still a fully realized universe so rich and original in it's own right.

Ozymandias is a villian but he isn't, in all of Moores works he turns the tables on what's the stereotype. I loved it but i think this is a place comics shouldn't go on a regular basis, if they do it'll be too depressing, Watchman was a depressing book to me as a 17 yr old kid.

Anyway I don't really know what this has to do with the villian winning, I just had to get that out.

kdmelrose
10-14-2006, 08:24 AM
In never-ending, serialized superhero comics the hero has to win, or the format ceases to work.

In the short term, the villain can -- and usally does -- win. However, in Act 3 the hero has to be triumphant; it's the nature of the beast. That third act can be in the last few pages of a single issue, the sixth issue of a story arc, or toward the end of the second or third arc in a much larger storyline.

But for the monthly superhero machine to continue, the hero ultimately has to win. If he doesn't, the serial breaks down. The end. After all, for the villain to truly "win," wouldn't the hero have to be dead, permanently decommissioned, or retired?

Spider-Man typically is defeated in Act 2, but he bounces back to beat Doc Ock. Kingpin can expose Matt Murdock as Daredevil, kill his loved ones and leave him bleeding in a gutter, but by Act 3 Daredevil is back ... and pissed. Doomsday can kill Superman, but Superman somehow returns for the win.

Buckyrig
10-14-2006, 01:29 PM
Which is why I think it would be cool to have more original self-contained stories. I'll always read monthlies, but the variety (even inside the superhero genre) would be better.

The Scribe
10-14-2006, 02:27 PM
I promise I'll sit down and write detailed review one of these days as Scribe requested. :)

-scherzo

Sooner than later. ;)

carriertone
10-15-2006, 03:09 AM
But don't we all secretly want the villain to win? Just once? Or am I just wrong?

That's what, to me at least, makes it exciting. I wonder if the villain is going to win, and sometimes I'm disappointed that he doesn't. Sometimes, sometimes, good and evil are all in your perspective. Plus, if the bad guy wins, the good guy just has to work harder and be more couregeous. It makes the good guy have to be even good-er. I think stories "could" be done this way, but they'd have to be really good to actually work.

- C

Moonrider
10-15-2006, 06:42 AM
I wished that at least one of the Ultimates bit the dust in Grand Theft America. It would make it feel more in touch with reality. But not only the heroes survive, the villains are all dead and dropping like flies too easy.

JMS' old TV series Captain Power actually had that effect of 'the villains win' at the end of the series when their HQ and female member goes kablam, and further emphasized by the epilogue words "the battle continues on". Didn't like it then, but I like that ending better now.

The Scribe
10-15-2006, 02:57 PM
But don't we all secretly want the villain to win? Just once? Or am I just wrong?

- C

Of course, we all want the villain to win sometimes. ;)

Did you see in Beyond where Venom killed "Spider-Man?"

Also, Venom has now destroyed the portal the others went into.

:har:

NILgravity
10-18-2006, 11:52 PM
What if the villian wins?

A villian did win in 2000 and again in 2004, and just like a villian he cheated to do it,

carriertone
10-20-2006, 02:04 AM
A villian did win in 2000 and again in 2004, and just like a villian he cheated to do it,

Cheney and his lackey, the Bushman. Where's Captain America when you need him?

Raven
10-20-2006, 12:36 PM
Cheney and his lackey, the Bushman. Where's Captain America when you need him?

Tied up in a lame series where he fights his friends over the last chicken nugget, or something.

theflash
10-20-2006, 12:59 PM
there are no heroes or villains in Watchmen. that's kinda the whole point.

as to the question about could it be a good story if the villain wins, i say certainly. the story being good or bad has nothing to do with who wins or loses. it's about being a well crafted story that pulls the reader along and pays off in the end. just because the pay off has Doom killing Reed doesn't mean it's not a payoff. might not be the payoff you wanted, but if it works with the story, why not?

Aaron Wilder
10-29-2006, 07:41 PM
But don't we all secretly want the villain to win? Just once? Or am I just wrong?

- C

Heck, the majority of comics readers wanted The Joker to win when they voted to have Jason Todd die. In my mind The Joker actually has more wins than losses - paralyzing Barbara Gordon, killing Jason Todd, killing Alexander Luthor, etc.

To me a more interesting story is when heroes go bad and stay bad. We've seen Namor and the Hulk and Sabretooth go from bad to good, but I would geek out to see Tony Stark go bad and never have a chance at redemption. Or for Frank Castle to kill the Kingpin and become Daredevil's #1 bad guy. DC seems to have more heroes go bad, whereas Marvel has more villains turn good.

JonHParrish
11-09-2006, 06:04 PM
I just want to see the bad guy kick the good guy in the nuts and run away. That's a victory in itself. The good guy may go after him and even capture him, but you can bet he'll never forget to protect his jewels from that point on when going toe to toe with that bad guy.

I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

Raven
11-09-2006, 11:11 PM
Heck, the majority of comics readers wanted The Joker to win when they voted to have Jason Todd die. In my mind The Joker actually has more wins than losses - paralyzing Barbara Gordon, killing Jason Todd, killing Alexander Luthor, etc.

.

Joker had his own series for a while too.

http://collectibleshop.tripod.com/joker-1.jpg

Joker killing Alex Luthor was one of the best things I'd read in a LONG time. Better than all of Civil War put together.

The-Spirit
11-09-2006, 11:50 PM
A well known comic artist once said that he hated the super villian comics of the 70's because the villian had to win to make the comic work, and it didn't. You want to see good triumph and evil lose, noone is rooting for Hitler.Maybe there are some exceptions.

Cyclops
11-17-2006, 03:46 AM
I think "good story" is rather subjective...it can be a good story to you if like seeing the villian win. Personally I don't like it when villians win..you feel almost robbed.

Buckyrig
11-17-2006, 03:48 AM
Some would consider Othello to be a pretty decent story. :)

Raven
11-17-2006, 12:00 PM
Titus Andronicus features no good guys at all. Everybody loses.