Manga vs Comics

[jokerwilde]

hmmmm general question...

maybe i'm completely ignorant about the entire issue, but you gotta learn somewhere right? I would like to know the opinions of those who read this thread, what the major differences are between manga and american-style comics aside from the drawing style.

If you were to hand in a sample of sequentials to the manga companies, say in the style of Jim Lee or something, do you think the manga people would publish it?

What is the future of comics/manga? Will they fuse or remain separate??

Any thoughts?

-JW

[Justice41]

Manga is comics, comics is Manga. End of story.

[Joshua P]

Stylistically there are some differences. Comics generally come out in a smaller medium then Manga. The average manga book is about a hundred pages, compared to a comic's 22. So when you look at how a manga tale is told compared to a comic, the manga has room to have a slightly slower pace. Sometimes manga will have three or four panels based on one action, which with comics there are very few examples of this occuring. Comics have a quicker pace in general. There are other stylistic tidbits, but that's the biggest difference in terms of style.

JP

[Ian Ascher]

I think jokerwilde is talking about format as opposed to anything else.

Single monthly issues vs big one-shot stories or collections. Manga books influenced the american market to look at the TPB market more closely but there will always be room for both formats otherwise single issues would have died three to five years ago.

[sgm]

What everyone forgets is that we in North America never see the originally printed versions of these "manga" stories.

What we see are the COLLECTED stories taken from weekly magazine serials. Those weekly magazines have multiple stories created by many different people with differing styles. They are also printed on really bad newsprint.

The way the Japanese comic market works is completely different than the American one. The availability of comics in vending machine aside, they put out comics on a WEEKLY basis.

I doubt very much that a publishing house putting out "manga", or "OEL manga" are very much interested in a "Jim Lee" style, or any style that is drastically different from what they typically publish. They have readers who are just as fickle as our publishers do. Marvel and DC do put out books that are influenced by "manga", but it's a small part of their overall published output.

I think we're seeing the results of a cross-over of ideas already. While styles on mainstream American books in general have taken a more realistic tone both in art and story, there are more varied styles today on superhero books than ever before.

[jokerwilde]

Awesome responses guys.
I really appreciate it.

SGM really hit the nail on the head with your reply there. I was just curious in general the differences in terms of style and market. A friend and I were discussing where the 'future' of comics/manga lies, whether it be in the manga style vs american style. Where is the money going to be in the future, etc. He says it's in manga.

[The-Spirit]

I'm not a big Manga fan but what I like about them that American comics don't do is they have a huge story in each issue. If American creators are going to miss deadlines and go months at a time without an issue, I'd like to see 64 pages when they finally come out instead of 22. It would be an awesome treat.

Instead you wait for a story and when it comes out it's just another installment and you've lost the momentum.

[kdmelrose]

How we see manga -- in the thick, digest-sized trade paperbacks -- aren't typically how they originally appear. Most are published in 20- to 40-page installments in weekly manga magazines or anthologies. In the U.S., we're seeing the collected editions.

EDIT: Heh. I just saw that SGM made the same point earlier.

[The-Spirit]

So their guys do weekly comics?

Even better, I wish American creators could or would do that.

[kdmelrose]

Even better, I wish American creators could or would do that.

Well, there's 52, and the gone-but-better-forgotten Action Comics Weeky.

[The-Spirit]

Well not everyone can be Will Eisner.

[kdmelrose]

Eisner, like some manga creators, employed assistants (at least on The Spirit).

[The-Spirit]

I know, but he did the bearshare of work. His storytelling skills and prolificity were honed by post war issues.

[Buckyrig]

Eisner, like some manga creators, employed assistants (at least on The Spirit).

I thought manga was assembly line. :huh:

[sgm]

Dragonball creator Akira Toriyama employed only one assistant for background work and only for scenes where he had previously established the background. The assistant typically worked 2 days a week and if there was too much to do, Toriyama (and even the assistant's wife) helped.

He produced about 14 pages of art (with or without zip-a-tone and/or ink wash) along with the story per work-week.

[kdmelrose]

I thought manga was assembly line. :huh:

Some manga-ka employ uncredited assistants to draw backgrounds, or to handle screentones or whatnot. But others do everything -- from plot to pencils to lettering to screentones -- themselves.

[Moonrider]

Actually, most manga-ka employ three to five assistants because the way their industry is formed there is just no way they can keep up with weekly deadlines alone doing many pages per week. Akira Toriyama may in fact only employ one but looking at his work this is possible since he doesn't use a lot of tones and backgrounds.
A manga-ka normally can do just about everything but they mostly concentrate on doing the full name or complete preliminary pages before giving the chores to his/her assistants. Usually after it's finished and approved by the editor, the mangaka grab sleep here and there while his/her assistants start working. Then, he draw all of the pages with the main characters before putting the backgrounds and everything together. Doujin artists usually do everything themselves or as a small team.

There is a manga out in Japan called HOERO PEN which tells a hillarious story about a mangaka and his assistants, Honoo Moyuru and his Honoo Production. It depicts accurately on how the industry work there. You should try looking it up, it's really funny.

[sgm]

Akira Toriyama may in fact only employ one but looking at his work this is possible since he doesn't use a lot of tones and backgrounds.

Actually, I find that the Dragonball stories have plenty of backgrounds. I don't know what the DBZ ones look like as I don't own any, but I've a number of the Dragonball graphic novles.

Take a look at old FF comics done by Kirby. There aren't that many backgrounds there either. Whenever there is, it's an establishing shot of some kind.

The main reason being storytelling supercedes draftsmanship in comics. Something Toriyama and many Japanese creators obviously understand quite well. That, and the fact there are typically more than 4 panels on a Toriyama (or Kirby FF) page. Lots of backgrounds on a "panel-heavy" page tend to clutter it.

[dano]

The main reason being storytelling supercedes draftsmanship in comics.
Tell that to Americans! You skimp on BGs or details and people damn you as a lazy hack

[j giar]

What the japanese or any manga artist are adept at is pacing and timing. Backgrounds should be used to establish placement...anything other than that, detailed backgrounds, slows the reader down. Giving them reason to explore. Other than establishment...backgrounds would be used to control pacing and/or timing. It has nothing to do with laziness....at least with them.

[The-Spirit]

Tell that to Americans!
You just did.

[Phatman]

Manga is comics, comics is Manga. End of story.

Not really.

Different themes.
Different style.
Different format.
Different distribution.

Manga is a different form of sequential storytelling. While I'll agree that manga may fall into our definition of comics, our definition of comics doesn't necessarily cover the definition of manga from their point of view.

[dano]

I always thought 'comics' were just an easy way to say sequential art stories.
In such case he's right.

[sgm]

I'm going to spoil one of my points in an upcoming interview here, but I think it's important I point out that, despite how much people like to say ""Manga" is Japanese for comics.", it's not! "Komikusu" (the transliteration of "comics") is Japanese for comics. There's a big difference. I've had this conversation a thousand times and argued both sides, from the American and Japanese POV, but the simple fact is, if you ask any Japanese manga reader, writer, artist, editor or publisher, the term "manga" is Japanese for "Japanese comic". Plain and simple.

Trust me, the Japanese are very specific in their comic terminology. Manga means Japanese comic. AmeComi is American Comic. BeDe or Bande Desinee is for anything produced in Europe. Manwha is Korean. Manhua is Chinese. And so on.... They're sticklers for their labels.

The rest of the interview:

http://www.newsarama.com/cebulski/Return/CebulskiReturn.htm

[CWmax]

Not really.

Different themes.
Different style.
Different format.
Different distribution.

Manga is a different form of sequential storytelling. While I'll agree that manga may fall into our definition of comics, our definition of comics doesn't necessarily cover the definition of manga from their point of view.



Manga vs. Comics: NOT a " different form of sequential storytelling"....They are all sequential art....



It's like asking whats the difference between "Motion Pictures" and "Movies"--Sure there are Blockbusters, Indie Films, Experimental films, instructional films, documentaries, and home movies.....but you would be correct in calling them all either Movies or Motion Pictures....

Theme does not change that...Neither do Style or Format or Distribution.


Yes Japanese comics do have slower pacing and there are genres like romance and sport stories that are more varied than the American Mainstream of Superhero stories but that does not make a difference....



With that said...Yes --For the sake of conversation it is pretty easy to make a distiction between Japanese Manga and American comic books - But to literally say that Manga is not Comics is incorrect.

[Moonrider]

Dragon Ball have plenty of backgrounds but compared to other manga artists' work Toriyama uses them as simple and effective as he can. Some of the times he doesn't even use rulers to draw lines and none of those realistically detailed establishing shots.

From what I can gather, from the Japanese point of view manga is manga. A term used for 'Japanese comics' or comics with similar format and production. It's a pretty stiff word because of its traditional origins as ukiyo-e paintings. Not much has changed over the past few decades and even though manga is no less a comic book than any sequential art, manga is still manga. Even though they gain more and more popularity in the world's pop culture, the format tend to separate its enthusiast rather than blurring the lines between manga and non-manga.
I think manga has become a lot bigger and reach broader audience outside Japan yet I doubt that most Japanese care to mix its culture with other formats such as American comics etc. It can gain enormous international acknowledgements but it's still pretty much a Japanese term.

From outsiders point of view however, most think manga is all about Japanese drawing style. Which is a misconception. Storytelling and such are also not exactly what makes manga a manga because we can make comics with their way of storytelling and still not considered as manga.

[Justice41]

No wonder people don't want to talk to Nerds. Just way too anal. If you like comics you'll like comics no matter the country of origin.

[uncle wya]

So their guys do weekly comics?

Even better, I wish American creators could or would do that.



So you think American creators work less because of this info? You think one Manga artist sits down and draws 22 pages in a week? And you'd like Americans to start doing this? You sir, are a retard. ;)

[Moonrider]

I believe it's 'one manga artist sits down along with five or so of his assistants losing a lot of sleep and draw 22 pages a week' :). If anyone else feel that he can do just that then by all means please do. Sure would like to have a weekly Ultimates comic, if it weren't such a bother.

[j giar]

So you think American creators work less because of this info? You think one Manga artist sits down and draws 22 pages in a week? And you'd like Americans to start doing this? You sir, are a retard. ;)
ANd so politely put to! :laugh:

[uncle wya]

ANd so politely put to! :laugh:

Why thank you. I'm glad you noticed. I keep myself highly trained in politeness and good manners.

[dano]

I'm not an expert in Manga but from what i have seen, generally maga is much less detailed and the art less complex than much of what we see in popular American comics. I'm going to guess this is to help speed up production time helping them to meet this weekly deadline.

[Moonrider]

I'd say it's the opposite. The only thing popular American comics are clearly superior to is color and price. Please, read AKIRA before posting your final judgement.The mangaka (Katsuhiro Otomo) is a master of architectural drawing. And he did many of the backgrounds and mecha drawings himself.

[dano]

i said generally

[Moonrider]

Yeah that's what I meant too. Generally they put out consistent work of detailed art. Depends on the mangaka's style as well of course, for instance you won't expect intricate lines and detailed ink renderings on Crayon Shinchan because that's just simply not what the mangaka intend to do. They are mostly consistent though. You can't really compare manga with American comics, I just happen to see more manga with detailed backgrounds and technical drawings than what I can find in Marvel or DC or whatever. AKIRA is but one of many example.

[uncle wya]

I'd guess Akira was not done at the pace of 22 pages a week. And yes, he did have help with alot of the backgrounds but for some reason the main artist takes the full credit. Kind of odd. But like Dano said, in general the art looks pretty rushed. I love Battle angel alita also, and I'd be willing to bet that wasn't drawn at a "super fast issue a week" pace either.

So to sum up, american artists COULD Speed up to a comic a week if they drew with a faster style and had 5 guys assisting. It's not like anyone here couldn't keep up with thier deadline if you had a large team of assists. I've done 24 hour comic day, layouts could be done in a day, and just pass them down the line of artists. Sure it'd be tuff, but so is pencilling and inking 22 pages a month in a more detailed style all alone. It's tuff enough.

[kdmelrose]

I'd guess Akira was not done at the pace of 22 pages a week. And yes, he did have help with alot of the backgrounds but for some reason the main artist takes the full credit. Kind of odd.

It's not really that odd. It's similar to the studio system used by some American comic creators in the '40s and '50s. Will Eisner, Bob Kane, and others employed uncredited assistants, or "ghosts."

A lot of newspaper comic strips traditionally used assistants; Wally Wood, for example, began as an assistant to George Wunder on Terry and the Pirates. That continues today.

[Justice41]

I guess you guys haven't read about the kid who really drew all of Pat lee's stuff?? Someone at CBR posted the pages of art this assistant did and all that was left out was the main figures which were also blocked in by the assistant. Pat Lee is a fraud. Wish I knew the link. They still employ BG artists who get little or no credit in the big companies.

[uncle wya]

Yeah I know, but it's not like it's a common thing to have a background artist anymore. It's pretty rare. And I do think it's ODD to not credit someone on a book, backgrounds are a huge part of the art, to not credit that is just messed up. And not only is Pat Lee a fraud but he can't draw worth a damn anyway.

[Justice41]

Mike Turner Silvestri all of em had BG artists when they worked at Topcow only the ink assists got any credit.
You should have seen those pages. Completely drawn and inked with pencilled in figures for Mr Wonderful to come scratch his mark over.
Found the link, here it be.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2581

[Mr.Musgrave]

Wow. That's worse than Greg Land. And that's saying a lot.

[uncle wya]

I don't know Steve, Land made it in CBR's top 50 artists OF ALL TIME, so I think you don't have a clue what you're talking about. ;) < there's the sarcasm wink for ya.

[carriertone]

I think the main difference between Manga and, at least, American comics is substance. Now, don't get me wrong here, I LOVE American comics. With Manga though, there are many different genres to choose from. Any type of story you are looking for is right there. American comics are still pretty much superheroes. There are definitely deviations from this, and they are wonderful, but american audiences don't usually pick up on them in numbers. I'm not a huge fan of most Manga, but I understand why so many americans, mostly younger readers, are. A lot of younger readers are completely ignoring American comics because we have fully ignored them. We need to stray a bit away from superheroes and try some new things. I love superheroes, and don't feel they SHOULD go anywhere, but we really need to start trying new genres and styles if this medium is to survive. I co-run a comic shop, and I used to work at Borders, so I see where I feel things are going. A whole section of our readership is going for Manga not American comics. We need to reel them back in. Other countries have taken this very American art form and done new things with it. We need to adapt to survive. This is just my two cents, but I hope it makes you all think a bit.

- C

[Moonrider]

Japanese comic artists tend to have a very close master-pupil relationship with their assistants, and they do get credited for the book in one form or another. Mostly in the gag section or end pages of the book, which are usually left out for the book's US distribution. There the assistants are free to draw gags, pin-ups, thoughts about the series or even about the manga-ka himself. Sometimes the manga-ka talks about his assistants as well in a rather humorous manner.