View Full Version : List of Rules (interactive)
A lot of folks come here for spot advice on lettering...or looking for a laundry list of rules they should follow. So, I thought we'd try to make it a game of sorts. Everytime you pop in here, pop up one of your RULES OF LETTERING...doesn't matter what it is, profesional, common sense, or personal...just pop it up and let's see how long this can get.
LETTERING IN BALLOONS SHOULD BE DIAMOND SHAPED TO FIT THE BALLOON BETTER.
USE CURVED TAILS
The idea is to make a list of YOUR rules, not waffling this and that statements. Someone else may say USE STRAIGHT TAILS and that's cool too. Just the rules as you know and use them.
Piekos
08-20-2006, 12:09 PM
When you've got a few captions on a page that are all quotes from a character speaking "off scene", Open with quotes in the first caption, and every subsequent caption, but only use the end quotes on the last caption on the page.
For instance:
"She walked into my office wearing that damn red dress again...
"I could swear her mouth was moving, but I just couldn't tear my attention away from those curves...
"...So I nodded in all the right places and kept smiling."
Also, in general, captions like: Meanwhile, back at the ranch... should be italicized, while captions of character quotes should not.
~N
Clem Robins
08-20-2006, 03:06 PM
nobody can design type that will match your own temperament. set up your own fonts. they'll be your stock in trade.
the best digital work evokes the great classic lettering. to wit…
Todd Klein is severe, disciplined, elegant, and a bit detatched.
Costanza is funky and fun.
Gaspar is a party.
Artie Simek was bland, competent, and terribly, terribly consistent.
etcetera.
let the world of comics tell its story through your sense of what looks right.
design your own type. it'll take a bit to learn the ins and outs of the process, but worth it. or anyway, i think it's worth it.
Jason Arthur
08-21-2006, 07:07 AM
Try to use a mix of cases on your lettering. For example:
If a character says: "What does it matter to you anyhow Bobby? Aaron woops ass."
Type it in like this: "What does it matTer to yOu anyhow BobBy? Aaron woOps asS."
That way the lettering will look more organic to fit with the artwork.
Also, going along with what Clem said... try to design your own type and when you do, make sure you have a good variation between your upper and lowercase sets.
-- J
JacoNB
08-21-2006, 09:02 AM
Don't just look to your favorite letterer(s) for inspiration... find those old Archie comics digests and flip through their pages. Dig out your old pre- 1990s comics and look at the title pages, the Sound Effects, the balloon shapes the thought balloons (gasp!). Look at the way they picked out the 'important' words in the balloons to be bolded or italicized.
Now, how did all of this stuff effect the way you read the comic?
Now that you see what worked in the days before computers, you can go out and try to apply some of those things in your own work to make it better.
Put About A Character-and-a-half Of Air In The Balloons Between The Words And The Edge.
charlesp
08-21-2006, 01:10 PM
Always keep your original lettered files. I have never had a book that didn't need at least one editorial change/correction after the fact.
cyxodus
08-21-2006, 01:43 PM
Take the time to study the lettering of other letterers. Invest in buying comics and reprints from your local comic shop or book store. Comic lettering has a unique style to it and you should study the work of those who have mastered it.
JacoNB
08-21-2006, 03:16 PM
Practice, practice, practice.
There's always room for improvement, even if you're lettering on a computer.
eDuke
08-21-2006, 03:31 PM
When computer lettering, use a keyboard. Invest in a monitor so you can see what you're typing too.
Ron Phillips
08-21-2006, 04:22 PM
When computer lettering, use a keyboard. Invest in a monitor so you can see what you're typing too.
And here I was trying to scan in my lettering.
Illustrator is the gold standard when computer lettering. Accept no substitutes!
But if you have to, Corel works...Photoshop is doable...but keep your leters a VECTORS.
cyxodus
08-21-2006, 07:58 PM
Writers write too much, artists draw either too much or too little and letterers have to make it all work out.
cyxodus
08-21-2006, 07:59 PM
If a letterer does his job right, no one notices.
If a letterer does his job right, no one notices.
Damn, there goes my Eisner.
BALLOONS SHOULD NOT LOOK LIKE FOOTBALLS!
Jason Arthur
08-21-2006, 10:02 PM
Always read through the script before you begin lettering. Find any areas that could pose problems and work with the writer on how to solve the problems (after you've tried to make it work on your own, of course).
Take note of items that the writer (or editor, or both) want in bold or italics and follow their rules. If you think something works better then suggest it, but don't be hurt when they reject it.
Be prepared to do some free work early in your lettering career. This is your chance to network, make friends and build bridges to a better career (with occasional paychecks!).
An average page of lettering takes anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour for most proficient users of Adobe Illustrator. Todd Klein has been quoted as saying that his average time per page is 30 minutes. If you're not there yet then don't worry. Take your time and do your best work. With practice and patience you'll get quicker.
Learn to use all the shortcuts you can in Illustrator. Program in ACTIONS to speed up repetitive tasks. Learn how to use the shortcuts to perfection and you'll see your lettering speed increase dramatically.
-- J
augiedb
08-22-2006, 09:43 AM
A balloon's tail should point towards the mouth of the character speaking.
Not his anus.
-Augie
Jason Arthur
08-22-2006, 12:08 PM
A balloon's tail should point towards the mouth of the character speaking.
Not his anus.
-Augie
Unless you're lettering Ace Ventura: Pet Detective in which case it could go either way.
-- J
spider
08-25-2006, 12:27 PM
Use different fonts for monsters and supernatural entities.
Comics Commando
08-25-2006, 08:01 PM
"When you've got a few captions on a page that are all quotes from a character speaking "off scene", Open with quotes in the first caption, and every subsequent caption, but only use the end quotes on the last caption on the page."
Actually, Nate--that WAS Nate, yes?--You're on the right track here, but...
The way I learned it was--that the captions are treated like dialogue in a novel. Each caption is regarded as a new "paragraph."
In a novel, if a character speaking continues to another paragraph without interruption, the new paragraph gets a start quote--while the prvious one gets no end quote.
Only when the speaker or character is finished speaking or interrupted does the dialogue have an end quote. They can be interrupted by a descriptive passage or other prose or by another character's dialogue.
In a comic book that "interruption" would be a word balloon or descriptive caption (but not SFX).
So--the captions may run for many pages before an end quote is required.
That's the way I learned it way back in the day. I just finished a job that I had to keep track of final caps, since the writer was unfamiliar with the principle.
Kurt Hathaway
lettering / logos / fonts
Comics Commando
08-25-2006, 08:03 PM
But my official rule of lettering is:
Use WATERPROOF ink!
There!
Kurt Hathaway
Amadarwin
08-28-2006, 12:55 PM
"When you've got a few captions on a page that are all quotes from a character speaking "off scene", Open with quotes in the first caption, and every subsequent caption, but only use the end quotes on the last caption on the page."
In a novel, if a character speaking continues to another paragraph without interruption, the new paragraph gets a start quote--while the prvious one gets no end quote.
Only when the speaker or character is finished speaking or interrupted does the dialogue have an end quote. They can be interrupted by a descriptive passage or other prose or by another character's dialogue.
aren't you saying the same thing, or am I missing some nuance here?
Piekos
08-28-2006, 01:53 PM
He's not counting a page break to end with the quotation marks.
I've had Editors tell me to do it either way, but the majority preferred the way I originally described. All these "rules" we've got here are always at the mercy of the Editor's personal tastes. Nature of the beast.
~N
augiedb
08-29-2006, 10:09 AM
But we all know the truth: The letterers are always right.
On the other hand, the editors sign off on the vouchers.
-Augie
Comics Commando
09-02-2006, 06:50 PM
aren't you saying the same thing, or am I missing some nuance here?
--------------------
Yes, the nuance is that Nate says an end quote shall be used on the final caption in the final panel of the page--ANY page.
I say the captions can go the whole issue with end quotes only on the final page (not every page). That would be a book with no dialogue balloons or other kinds of caps, but it's possible to write-letter a book that way. Just one of those things I was taught when I first started. Wish I knew who taught it to me, though. May've been Todd Klein.
Kurt Hathaway
Cartoon Balloons Studios
Lettering / Logos / Fonts
Khathaway1@socal.rr.com
Comics Commando
09-02-2006, 06:53 PM
I keep forgetting to add a rule...Lessee here, now.
Before starting a project with a new client, find out if it's a full-bleed book or not and letter accordingly.
Kurt Hathaway
Cartoon Balloons Studios
Lettering / Logos / Fonts
Khathaway1@socal.rr.com
Clem Robins
09-05-2006, 10:29 AM
here's a swell rule. or at least i think it is a swell rule, coming from the standpoint of a guy rooted in hand lettering.
if things are tight, try running text up against the top and left border of a panel, and left-justifying it.
this is how lettering always looked in the pre-digital days, and it still looks great that way if you do it right.
center-justified text is the kind of thing we all aspired to, in vain, when all of this stuff got lettered with a pen instead of a keyboard. we shot for perfection, and ended up with a kind of funky near-perfection. (on a good day, anyway.)
but it was easier to let all the lines of copy be flush with the left border of a panel.
i am not the reactionary old goat that i may appear to be. i don't suggest this stuff because it looks hand-lettered, but because the funk of faux hand lettering looks better on top of pictures which are still drawn by human beings.
anyway, try it sometime. it's fun. quad left your text, sideline your balloons, and see what happens.
Good point! I had to do that a few times this weekend myself. GREAT rule!
My rule of the day: If the art is TOTALLY aped, TELL someone! Don't letter over poorly sized, tilted, or extreemely lowres art unless the editor says so. Often, the artists/inker/colorist just exported wrong. Give them a chance to fix it before resigning them to your groovy letters over bad pages.
I keep forgetting to add a rule...Lessee here, now.
Before starting a project with a new client, find out if it's a full-bleed book or not and letter accordingly.
Kurt Hathaway
Cartoon Balloons Studios
Lettering / Logos / Fonts
Khathaway1@socal.rr.com
All printing is trimmed the same, why would this make a difference to your lettering unless you're lettering straight to inks...in which case the colorist should be sharing his palet with you for the SFX.
Another Rule for the Day: Sample your SFX colors off the page accordingly or use the colorists palet.
JeffPowell
09-05-2006, 02:38 PM
Never hyphenate words.
Never hyphenate words.
I completely disagree with this, but that's me. I like to have my balloons full and not have extra space, so I hyphenate at will...but I can see why some don't want to.
But hey! Welcome to the forum!
Piekos
09-05-2006, 06:56 PM
It's one of those rules that's sort of a gray area.
In the old days, it wasn't so taboo. Most editors now aren't too thrilled with it-- but I have experienced times when there was no way other than hyphenate, or have the most misshapen balloon ever.
Don'tcha just love when you get a nice looooong word at the end of a sentence?
~N
JeffPowell
09-05-2006, 08:05 PM
That rule more applies to digital lettering more than pen lettering. As much as you don't want to hyphenate, you're kind of forced to either avoid making an horribly odd balloon shape or the panel border, if you were trying to justify the balloon to the right. It's a lot simplier to avoid while working digitally. I've been asked by certain editors to not hyphenate the text and eventually phased it out entirely.
I hate to hyphenate words, however, I did have to do it twice. The words were so long, that the balloon would have looked terrible. It is rare that I will do it, but sometimes it's necessary. :(
Don'tcha just love when you get a nice looooong word at the end of a sentence?
~N
Funny, I'm doing a piece today that has at least one silly-long word at the end on every page. It's been a bit of a challenge.
F!NCH
09-06-2006, 05:18 AM
If you ARE forced to hyphenate, try to reserve it for compound words, do it between syllables, and preferably leave the word in two even(ish) parts.
e.g.
what-ever
some-thing
under-wear
hand-shake
Clem Robins
09-08-2006, 08:52 AM
if you use a font for sound effects — as opposed to drawing the characters manually or with a mouse or graphics tablet — never use that font without modifying it to suit the effect that you want. never. it will never work.
sound effects demand a sense of agitation. they usually build to a climax. this kind of thing cannot be built into a font.
i have designed several dozen sound effects fonts. i had an idea of what the purpose of each one was, and made them as well as i possibly could for my purposes. and still they must be outlined and adjusted whenever they are used.
strictly speaking, this sort of modification is a breach of the licensing agreement one makes when one buys type. (if you go to the FontLab forum sometime, look for J.G. Roshell's back and forth with Adam Twardoch over this issue.) but if you buy type specifically for comics, it was probably designed by someone who knows comics, and will have no problem with your making their type look as good as it possibly can.
outline the characters, grab corner points, and start moving stuff around till you get the effect that you want.
also…
if a writer has given you a sfx like BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!, he is only kidding, or maybe he fell asleep and his head landed on his keyboard. long sfx like that don't add impact, they lessen it. if the writer or editor knew what would make sfx work, they would be letterers.
go for the jugular.
Wiz Rollins
09-08-2006, 03:54 PM
Don't assume the writer is dating spellcheck.
They might have recently broken up.
Don't assume the writer is dating spellcheck.
They might have recently broken up.
If that's the case, charge more.
JacoNB
09-08-2006, 10:30 PM
Don't assume the writer is dating spellcheck.
They might have recently broken up.
Best. Advice. EVER.
:D
JeffPowell
09-09-2006, 10:34 AM
If that's the case, charge more.
Riiight. Most times, it's hard enough trying to negotiate a decent page rate, let alone attempting to charge a few extra bucks for correcting a writer's poor grammar and spelling.
Riiight. Most times, it's hard enough trying to negotiate a decent page rate, let alone attempting to charge a few extra bucks for correcting a writer's poor grammar and spelling.
I'm not about to get into negotiating tactics here, but being willing and able to WALK AWAY from a project is a big help. Learning how to shrug is also helpful. I may have to write this up someday when I'm feeling particularly generous, but the difference between a $10 per page rate and a $30 per page rate (and up) is often a matter of better negotiation, not actual skill (though believe me, that does help).
I'm not about to get into negotiating tactics here, but being willing and able to WALK AWAY from a project is a big help. Learning how to shrug is also helpful. I may have to write this up someday when I'm feeling particularly generous, but the difference between a $10 per page rate and a $30 per page rate (and up) is often a matter of better negotiation, not actual skill (though believe me, that does help).
Yeah, I learned this the hard way. I have only had to do this with free projects, I never had that much trouble so far with the paid ones (sometimes they offered to pay more when the artist left very little room for me to letter).
Gonzogoose
09-10-2006, 12:03 AM
Wow, maybe I'm too nice? Either that or I'm a bad negotiater. People will ask me if I can do this or that and they'll pay me extra for it and I'm like nah, it's easy, I'll do it for no extra charge or whatever. Of course I'm still trying to get established even though I've been published several times now (nothing major of course). Am I a sucker?
Sorry, I have nothing to add. I haven't really had to deal too much bad grammar and spelling, so I guess I'm lucky. Only thing that used to bug me was getting dialogue in all caps, but that was before I knew about changing case in Word.
Amadarwin
09-11-2006, 11:35 AM
What is the general consensus of crossing balloon tails? My assumption would be: NEVER. It just looks so wrong to me...
Is it generally acceptable? If not, when is it ok to do so?
Wiz Rollins
09-11-2006, 11:53 AM
The only time I see crossed tails as okay is when you're trying to give a sense chaos and confusion to the dialogue-- as if the room were full of people all trying to tell the same story at once.
But, even then, I think it's kinda sloppy.
JeffPowell
09-11-2006, 12:11 PM
I'd say it's pretty much unacceptable. It's not even a last resort.
The only time I see crossed tails as okay is when you're trying to give a sense chaos and confusion to the dialogue-- as if the room were full of people all trying to tell the same story at once.
But, even then, I think it's kinda sloppy.
Usually the best way to indicate chaos/confusion like you suggest,Wiz, is to use balloons without tails.
Wiz Rollins
09-11-2006, 12:30 PM
Usually the best way to indicate chaos/confusion like you suggest,Wiz, is to use balloons without tails.
Amen.
Roel_Torres
09-12-2006, 02:55 AM
My lettering rule for the day:
--Don't randomly insert swear words into the each balloon. Even if it will amuse you, the writer might object.
My lettering rule for the day:
--Don't randomly insert swear words into the each balloon. Even if it will amuse you, the writer might object.
Fuck'n A!
What is the general consensus of crossing balloon tails? My assumption would be: NEVER. It just looks so wrong to me...
Is it generally acceptable? If not, when is it ok to do so?
No. Don't do it. Never.
Of course...Never is a long time...and it wouldn't be a rule if there wasn't a reason to break it...
JacoNB
09-13-2006, 10:47 AM
Sometimes the artist insists on crossing the tails. Even after objections. So I guess the lesson is: the customer is always right. Even when they're wrong. :D
JeffPowell
09-13-2006, 01:12 PM
Sometimes the artist insists on crossing the tails. Even after objections. So I guess the lesson is: the customer is always right. Even when they're wrong. :D
You'd think the artist would know better. That's one of those moments where you just shrug and say, "Whatever, dude."
JacoNB
09-16-2006, 12:32 PM
You'd think the artist would know better. That's one of those moments where you just shrug and say, "Whatever, dude."
Exactly... sometimes you just have to let them figure it out for themselves, eh? :D
Kel Nuttall
09-16-2006, 04:08 PM
Factor the unknown into rate negotiations....ASSUME at some point you WILL be asked for something ridiculous and leave the door open to get paid for it if it's over the top.
Example: You've lettered a book, it's been given the okay, finals are exported. They come back the next week and say, "Hey, the book changed publishers and they want a few changes made. Is that okay?" You agree and then find out they LITERALLY want 85% of the book changed...entire pages almost completely rewritten, blocks of text moved from one page to another, remove/add/alter sound effects, move balloons and captions around to hide art flaws, etc. It really sucks not getting paid for basically redoing an entire book.
When quoting times: figure out how long it will take you...and double it.
Kel Nuttall
09-17-2006, 06:43 AM
When quoting times: figure out how long it will take you...and double it.
Also known as the Scotty Equation.
r nelson
09-17-2006, 10:59 AM
It really sucks not getting paid for basically redoing an entire book. Indeed. I went through exactly that for the first time in August.
My newest rule: Agree to "x" number of revisions before accepting the job.
And stick to it when the client asks for "just one more tweak... Pretty-please-with-ice-cream-and-cherries-on-top-and-I-promise-when-this-is-a-big-hit-made-for-TV-movie-you'll-get-famous-too!"
r nelson
09-17-2006, 11:19 AM
Wow, maybe I'm too nice? Either that or I'm a bad negotiater. People will ask me if I can do this or that and they'll pay me extra for it and I'm like nah, it's easy, I'll do it for no extra charge or whatever. Of course I'm still trying to get established even though I've been published several times now (nothing major of course). Am I a sucker? No, and I think it's a good point in regards to "getting established." I've done a lot of "extra" stuff in the course of lettering projects as I've grown from a hobbyist-letterer to getting fairly regular gigs, and I've gotten a lot of return clients because of that.
However, as I'm beginning to get somewhat more established I find I'm also becoming more discriminating. Jobs I'd jump at eight months ago, I might look at a little closer before accepting.
It's a lot easier to say "no" to a project or off-the-wall suggestion/proposal when you know you'll have work in your in-box in a couple days. Or maybe saying "no" to crap deals comes with confidence in your ability. Probably a bit of both, I suppose.
(Great thread, BTW!)
Define what a revision is. A complete script rewrite is NOT a revision. A few words, a change in placement, the deletion of a baloon or addition of one here and there is. If they rewrite it because they decide it really is aped up, charge them for it again. It's not your fault they didn't hire an editor.
Clem Robins
09-25-2006, 10:45 AM
if you can succeed in charging extra for rewritten scripts, then you've got some serious clout.
me, i gave up trying a couple of years ago. it stinks, and what we're doing is replacing the staff of full-time production artists DC and Marvel used to have. (which, incidentally, used to be the best training ground for letterers; i did my bit at both companies in the late 70s, and Todd Klein was a fixture at DC's bullpen for years before he began competing for work.)
my experience has been when a book is being launched, the first two or three issues are going to be rewritten extensively. or even when a new artist is brought on board.
like many things in the digital world, this procedure favors the writer, who can submit a less-than-perfect script, and places a huge burden on the letterer. the only thing i can say in its favor is that it does tend to produce some very well-written comic books.
Define what a revision is. A complete script rewrite is NOT a revision. A few words, a change in placement, the deletion of a baloon or addition of one here and there is. If they rewrite it because they decide it really is aped up, charge them for it again. It's not your fault they didn't hire an editor.
I found usually this is the case with free jobs, which is another reason I don't like taking those anymore, unless it's a well known publisher. I worked on one where the script kept on changing, and I had to quit, it was too much. Now that I have paid jobs, it doesn't seem to happen (or maybe I'm just lucky).
I found usually this is the case with free jobs, which is another reason I don't like taking those anymore, unless it's a well known publisher. I worked on one where the script kept on changing, and I had to quit, it was too much. Now that I have paid jobs, it doesn't seem to happen (or maybe I'm just lucky).
CORRECT! If you make your time worth it, they're less likely to waste it. VERY important thing to remember.
r nelson
09-25-2006, 07:25 PM
like many things in the digital world, this procedure favors the writer, who can submit a less-than-perfect script, and places a huge burden on the letterer. the only thing i can say in its favor is that it does tend to produce some very well-written comic books. That's a great point, Clem -- I guess what we really need is a list of rules for writers, starting with: "Do a round of edits after the art is completed before sending the script to the letterer." There's nothing worse than an unedited script.
Clem Robins
09-28-2006, 01:27 PM
rules for writers? good luck. me, i keep my mouth shut and try to make people happy.
all of this has its roots in editors' relationships with writers. a lot of editors walk on eggshells, afraid to piss off their talent. others are micromanagers, and these either keep the writers in line, or do whatever revisions they think are necessary before the scripts are passed on to letterers.
the rewrites-after-the-fact are most prevalent, i think, at Vertigo. i don't mind it that much. Vertigo places such an emphasis on really, really good writing, they bend over backwards to make things as easy for writers as possible.
comics are visual, and i can respect a writer's need to see how his words work on the page. it would be nice to be paid for indulging that need, but i don't see it happening in the near term.
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2013, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.