How to approach Editors at Cons?

[Scribe]

I've been to two cons now and everytime where I've waited in line to talk to an editor like artists do I'm either politely, or impolitely told I'm not wanted before I can say like five words.

As writers is there a good way to meet editors at Cons, is it possible, or is there just no good way to approach them ever if you're a writer?

Any tips or war stories would be appreciated.

[ccorniuk]

Question: when you approach these editors, do you have art to go along with your writing?

If not, then your results are pretty run of the mill. It takes a much longer time for editors to be able to determine if your writing is good, if it's just in text format. Editors like to see a completed subject. If you're dealing with Marvel or DC, they don't want to see new content/concepts, due to possible later legal ramifications. There's a reason the companies we do deal with submissions on require a signed agreement before they'll even take a look at your ideas. Take it a step in another direction, and they want to see your completed work as it relates to working with an artist. A lot of people can spin an interesting yarn, but few have the dedication and capability to knit a full sweater, know what I mean.

I use cons (the limited times I go) to meet artists and writers. Writers are generally more willing to take a look at your writing and give a critique. Artists can help you get where you need to be. Editors and publishers generally have specific guidelines you must follow, but you can usually still talk to them in more general ways (ie, "Hey love your book" aka "pucker up, buttercup" and then "I'm working on a submission for you guys, what is it that you're really looking for, etc.?"). Build a rapport with them, you might at best get some contact information, specific instructions for when you are ready to submit your completed work.

[Scribe]

Question: when you approach these editors, do you have art to go along with your writing?

No because I'm a writer not an artist. I should be evaluated on a script that I wrote, not on what an artist drew based on what I wrote.

If I'm going to pitch something to a publisher I don't mind going through the expense and bother of paying an artist, but I should have to spend $100 to get finished art just so my portfolio will be evaluated.

I just don't buy the excuse that "It takes more time to read a proposal." I know an agent who claims to be able to judge a writer's talent by reading the first paragraph of a novel. A 22 page script takes maybe 15 minutes to read, and if your schedule is so busy you can't find 15 minutes you probably shouldn't be going to a Con in the first place.

So basically to answer my question unless I'm part of a package deal I'm wasting my time and money approaching editors at cons

[Fred Duran]

I know that "it takes more time to read a proposal" sounds a little iffy, and I'm sure there are people like the agent you described, but in all the noise and distractions, it's probably ten times easier for an editor to look at an artist's drawings and tell that, for example, the anatomy is off, than it is to look at a writer's script and see if it's to his/her liking, because the picture is all right there in one place, and if something's wrong it'll be evident immediately, but you'd have to actually read the script/proposal and then you'd have to think "hmm is this going to work? Will my company gain from this? How will it affect us in the long- and short-term?"
And all of these things are really serious to editors, so they want to take their time thinking about them until they're sure they're right - the wrong decision can lose money, and we all know money's what keeps the books coming out in the first place.
Writing takes more time to analyze than art, and the editors have schedules to follow and want to see as many prospective creators as possible during their time at the con. Therefore, it would help you to have an artist, because even if the art isn't perfect, the editor will be able to see what's going on and they'll know the story is good, and the story's all you.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

Fred

[kdmelrose]

So basically to answer my question unless I'm part of a package deal I'm wasting my time and money approaching editors at cons

The best way to get your comics work read by editors is to publish comics, whether it's an ashcan or full-blown production. I don't know of too many (any, really) editors who do script reviews at conventions.

You can socialize with them at con parties or at the hotel bar, then ask if it's okay if you send them something later. But an on-the-spot review is unlikely.

[RichardB]

I hear your frustration and share it, but...no.

Sure, we all know what that agent is talking about, but -- assuming for the sake of argument that he actually does have the eye for talent he claims to have -- does he base his decision on whether to take on a writer he's pegged as talented as a client entirely on that first paragraph? If so, I wonder how successful his agency is. But I doubt he does. Loads of people can write a killer paragraph. Especially if they're novices with no deadlines to meet and with years and years to hone and refine that killer paragraph. Only a small percentage of the people who are talented with words have the tenacity and determination to write every day, even when no inspiration strikes, to keep going in the face of every setback and discoragement...to actually be steadily working writers.

The catch is, only the people who are capable of sticking it out and getting the work done regularly and consistently are worth an agent's or editor's time. They've got deadlines to meet and books that have to be delivered and (at least in the prose world) advances that have to be justified. So many people come along and seem promising and talented yet who fold under pressure or flake out and don't deliver the finished work. In books, that means not only this book, but the next one and the one after that. In comics, that means not only the script you've finished, but next month's script and the month after that. These people are investing in your future output and they have to take a gamble on your ability to perform...and they still get burned time and time again.

(This ties in with the thread I started about artist problems a few weeks back.)

Handing an editor a finished, printed comic book at least says "I'm determined enough to make it in this business that I did all the extra work besides writing necessary to make it happen, I pulled it together and could coordinate with at least one other person -- the artist; possibly more than one if there was an inker and letterer -- and I nagged them about deadlines and kept after them and still made them want to work with me. And here's the proof right in your hands." This goes a long way to showing an editor that you're someone who can and will do the work of being a writer.

It also helps show them that what you want to do is make comics, not "be a comics author" or whatever. The person who does comics because he or she has to -- who does the work for the sake of doing it and getting it seen by others -- is a MUCH better gamble for a publisher than someone who's only interested in doing it if certain conditions are met. A finished printed comic says "I did whatever it took for people to see this story, because I had to. If you don't publish me, people are still going to see my stuff."

If I were an editor, that's who I'd want to work with.

[Scribe]

This is just my vent on the issue and no one has to respond to it...

It seems to me that it's not asking to much for an editor to be willing to review a script. You have take scripts from the first 10 writers with 22 page scripts who show up at your table in the morning. Then you take an hour that evening and go through them and if you like any you give them a call or send them an email and schedule a meeting while you're both at the con. Doesn't seem like a massive time investment on the editor's part, and it opens up the door to people who don't have the time or money to self publish.

[DarkOra]

You've never talked to any editors about what their schedules are like at cons, have you? Sure, they review some portfolios and such hoping to find some new talent, but a lot of their time (and meetings and lunches and dinners) go toward keeping connected with people in the industry. Talking to existing, established talent in the industry and outside the industry (ones with names that will sell or ones that have proven time-and-again they can meet or exceed deadlines) to see who's interested in pitching for new books coming along, talking to other editors and publishers about the industry and the available talent pool, and all that. Plus, they still have to keep all of the books they're editing on track (which they might have to do when they go back to their rooms at night). Any other spare time is theirs (bars, parties, and such), and they truly deserve that time to do whatever they want (and some of them will still use that "free time" for more networking).

And reading through a script properly takes a bit longer than you might think... the editor has to evaluate how it will translate into actual artwork (and try to visualize a style or even multiple styles for the script while reading it), visualize how well the dialogue will fit on the page (and not just whether it's good or not), analyze the story to see how it would sell, and review a host of other things.

Even if it's really good, they still have to wonder how long it took to go from initial idea to script, and with untested talent, they have no way of knowing that from just a script. If it took months for one script, that doesn't help them keep their deadlines (or know how good the scripts will be if this writer has a much shorter turnaround). If it took a week or less, was this one script just a fluke meaning the writer could buckle under deadlines?

If you want better success when you approach editors, take the time to find out more about their jobs and take the time to get to know them. And as I mention in my convention etiquette article (http://storyboard.darkora.net/articles.php?article=14), they truly are real people... so remember that when you want to talk to them. Sure, they can hire people to work on books, but there's more to them than that... many of them are just really great people in their own right. And getting to just be friends with some editors has gotten me introductions to so many great people in this industry in more casual settings (people I'd normally have to wait in two hour lines just to get a face-to-face with at a convention).

[xtylerx]

Holy crap you guys, this is insanely depressing - depressing but totally true. Good thing my cats aren't depending on my writing for financial support.

[RichardB]

I must disagree with DannoE in one respect. If you compare writing comics to something like writing copy at an ad agency, then yes, the supply outstrips the demand for the former, and the latter is far more lucrative. But you could say the exact same thing about being a painter and painting signs. There are far more painters in the world today than are needed, strictly speaking in terms of the number of paintings that anyone can look at in a lifetime. The guaranteed income of a regularly working sign painter may be much more useful in supporting a family than that of a starving painter in a garret. Novelists? No one can get through the smallest fraction of novels published each year. Musicians? It's even worse. We can even say the same about film and television.

In ANY field of art, a person had better be doing it for sheer love of doing it. In that sense, there's no more reason to discourage someone from creating comics than there is to discourage people from writing novels, painting paintings, making music. They're all equally "fruitless" in terms of strict supply and demand.

But art doesn't work in terms of supply and demand, either. Good art creates its audience. An artist is not filling an existing demand for something that doesn't exist; the artist gives the audience something they didn't know they wanted until they saw it.

If there were no Grant Morrison (one of my favorites, but you can substitute your favorite writer or artist here) my comic book purchases wouldn't simply transfer to someone else. I buy a new Morrison book if I see it; if there isn't one, that's one less comic book I buy. And this is the reason why editors are looking for new creators at all: not because they have an opening on their schedule, but because they hope to find another Grant Morrison who will create a new audience they otherwise wouldn't have.

We are competing, in the Darwinian sense of so many new comics wanting to catch the eyeballs of a potential audience. Breaking through that is hard. Doing something that justifies getting this attention is hard too. But a Grant Morrison or a Brian Bendis or whoever is not our competitor. They created an audience. We have to create one too. My goal is not to take away one of Grant's readers, but to work and struggle and pray for that day when someone tells me "I bought two comics today -- yours and his."

[daweir]

Hey, cool. a SHORT post from me:

One thing to remember is that there will always be someone willing to buy your stuff. With our particular industry, the problem is GETTING to those people. If you can do that, they'll buy it.

That's why there are so many painters. They paint, people buy it. But it takes a while to get to the buy. So, yeah, keep at it. If you love it, that'll shine, and that'll make all the difference. And even if you don't figure out how to get your work to people who want it, you'll love what you've made.

[T.J. May]

The best way for a writer to get an editors attention is by publishing first. They don't want to see scripts. Scripts are boring. They want to see what an artist did with your work because it's the finished projects.

I hired Shelton to do ILL Conceived. It was moderatley successful. I sent out 30 packets with a sample copy to editors at DC, Vertigo, IDW, and DArk Horse. Two Dark Horse editors emailed me with feedback, and both said that more writer should put that type of package together.

They didn't have a job for me, and they didn't think Iwas there yet but I showed promise. They both told me to keep sending them new stuff as it gets PUBLISHED.

Cons are really a horrible place for unestablished writers to get much of an "in". Rub elbows, get some business cards, but nothing much else will come of it in that weekend.

[daweir]

I absolutely agree with the whole "get published, then pimp your work" argument. I hope it didn't seem that I was saying otherwise.

At present, I'm working with an artist to get my book started. He's currently only signed to do the first issue, but I'm counting on my professionalism, respect for artists and (hopefully) the quality of my work to convince him to agree when I ask him to finish the first story arc.

The point is, you have to show you've got it. If you can't get something published, companies won't want to work with you. If you CAN get something published, that tells the company you have the steel to stick it through and get it done. With so many wanna-be-writers out there, the only ones they should be looking at are the ones who want it bad. So bad they'll put their sweat, blood and tears into it.

So go get 'em.

[Scribe]

Basically I'm going to cut back on Cons and just go to Dragon*Con because it looks like I'm wasting time and money chasing editors at comic cons.

The existing writers can easily handle the workload of what sells.

I'm of the exact opposite opinion, the time has come to find new blood. I think one major reason the industry has been shedding readers for the better part of a decade is because the same stable of writers are circulating the same stale scripts. The big two should probably dump anywhere between 50 to 80 percent of the writing staffs and go get new writers.

Few people can argue that Geoff Johns revitalized DC and he had few published credits before signing on there. The best comics I've read in the last few years have come from people like Meltzer, Whedon, Heinburg, people who haven't exactly been in the business long.

[DarkOra]

Basically I'm going to cut back on Cons and just go to Dragon*Con because it looks like I'm wasting time and money chasing editors at comic cons.
If that's truly the only reason you're going to conventions, then yeah, it's probably a waste of time and money. I go to have fun. I get to chat with friends, meet other creators that share similar passions, find lots of new books to read, and look at tons of great artwork. Anything else on top of that is a bonus.

Few people can argue that Geoff Johns revitalized DC and he had few published credits before signing on there. The best comics I've read in the last few years have come from people like Meltzer, Whedon, Heinburg, people who haven't exactly been in the business long.
Every one of those you've mentioned weren't unknown quantities as far as quality of writing and/or the ability to make deadlines. They had solid writing resumes and references to back up their claims of "I'm a writer" before approaching the comics industry (and I'm pretty sure most of them are long-time comic readers as well, so they also have a passion for comics on top of it all).

Geoff has a degree in media arts/filmmaking and worked as an assistant to Richard Donner for a number of years learning the art of storytelling from a well-established Hollywood veteran. Published credits or not, having someone with Donner's reputation vouch for your writing skills goes a long way in any industry.

Brat Meltzer is a best selling novelist.

Allan Heinberg writes for The OC and previously worked on Gilmore Girls and Sex and the City.

Whedon... man, what's that guy done?

[Scribe]

Every one of those you've mentioned weren't unknown quantities as far as quality of writing and/or the ability to make deadlines.

I'm not saying unknowns, I'm saying new blood, in whatever form that takes.

[DarkOra]

Okay, new blood. Well, here's a really quick list just from my pulls for Marvel and DC (including the writers you already listed): Johns, Meltzer, Heinberg, Whedon, Simone, Kirkman, Niles, Bendis, Oeming, Slott, Azarrello, Andreyko, Torres, Vaughan, Winick, Pfeiffer, Millar, McKeever, Willingham, Sumerak, Beechen, Tad Williams, Allen Warner, Aguirre-Sacasa, and Daniel Way.

That list of writers covers a healthy percentage of Marvel and DC comics, and I know there are a lot more than that (and even more currently pitching projects).

[Knuckles]

Whedon... man, what's that guy done?


I don't know if you where joking or not, but he wrote Buffy and Angel. Even wrote some for Roseanne.

If joking ignore post.

[Scribe]

Okay, new blood. Well, here's a really quick list just from my pulls for Marvel and DC (including the writers you already listed): Johns, Meltzer, Heinberg, Whedon, Simone, Kirkman, Niles, Bendis, Oeming, Slott, Azarrello, Andreyko, Torres, Vaughan, Winick, Pfeiffer, Millar, McKeever, Willingham, Sumerak, Beechen, Tad Williams, Allen Warner, Aguirre-Sacasa, and Daniel Way.


A most of those guys have been at it for a number of yeras now. I would hardly call Simone, Winick, Vaughn, Kirkman, Millar and Bendis New.

Also, just as a side note I attended the first run of Roberto Aguirre-Scasa "Say you Love Satan," in 2001.

As another side note Andreyko, Aguirre-Scasa and Heiberg are gay. Definately a cool example of how comics are changing.

[bezelleo]

So...

1.) Set aside from the argument, how does the writer approach an editor at the con?
2.) And the best place to do it?
3.) And should it be in a folder? Binder? Trapper Keeper?
4.) If it's not very good art with your writing, show it anyway?

Sorry, just not getting a clear picture from the previous posts is all.

[daweir]

I have never, ever, ever asked to show my work to an editor at a con.

I have, however, traded horror stories with editors, and subsequently been asked to share something. And, of course, the year that happened I hadn't taken anything with me.

Go me.

[MARK A ROBINSON]

No because I'm a writer not an artist. I should be evaluated on a script that I wrote, not on what an artist drew based on what I wrote.

If I'm going to pitch something to a publisher I don't mind going through the expense and bother of paying an artist, but I should have to spend $100 to get finished art just so my portfolio will be evaluated.

I just don't buy the excuse that "It takes more time to read a proposal." I know an agent who claims to be able to judge a writer's talent by reading the first paragraph of a novel. A 22 page script takes maybe 15 minutes to read, and if your schedule is so busy you can't find 15 minutes you probably shouldn't be going to a Con in the first place.

So basically to answer my question unless I'm part of a package deal I'm wasting my time and money approaching editors at cons

My two bits...


I think you might be forgeting that comics is a "visual medium" after all...And i think what some people might be suggesting is that- you might enhance your chances of an editor taking a look at your pages if some decent artwork is attached to it.-because in the long run- this is what it's going to look like...not all the sugar plums dancing in your head.

And unfortunately- at a con- editor's are mostly looking for artist's to fill some voids in production schedules- fill ins...ect. Alot of the writer's that are trying to break in that I have been prevy of seeing pitch at shows- made some common mistakes that editors even told me that "turns them off"...being pushy is the big one. I think the first thing to always keep in mind is that these guys look at ALOT of pitches,and all kinda of stuff before you might get to them...

Might be a good idea to step back and just relax and realize that attitude might be a big reason that editor's might not be looking at your proposals.

It's a Con.And Con's are suppose to be fun and bring back excitment to the biz-nobody wants to deal with sour grapes when they finally get "out of the office" to do the meet and greet.

There's tons of talent up and coming artists on this board that you might want to try to collaberate with- because eventually you might want to get your head around to that concept because making a comic book is a team effort. like someone else mentioned- get a press packet together and ship them out to editors that write the books that YOU like- It's a good bet that if you read the books that they edit- that somewhere in your writting their will be that influence and common ground for you to stand on...If anything you get feedback- and feedback is always good- and it opens doors to further communication- which is a big bonus.

Shelling out a 100 bucks is the least of your worries.I hope things turn around for you! good luck bro.

Best,
M.

[Hob Anagarak]

...
I'm of the exact opposite opinion, the time has come to find new blood. I think one major reason the industry has been shedding readers for the better part of a decade is because the same stable of writers are circulating the same stale scripts.

Agreed about new blood. When you have approxiamately 4 guys writing close to half of what the big 2 publish, golden boys or not (a concept I disagree with entirely anyway), when "star" writer A is allowed to get away with a joke arc that even admits how stretched out it is, you need to change things up a bit. Or the last round of "What If?" comics, for that matter.

And in regards to guys like Heinberg, Hudlin, Meltzer, etc, I'm still of the opinion that the bulk of them are writing comics now due to
A) Avi Arad shifting Marvel towards movie/Hollywood properties
and
B) The big two are still desperate for mainstream acceptance. The current plan being that they can say "Look! We have book, TV, and movie, writers working for us now! See, respected people write comics too!"

Most of the time it's worked pulling in outside writers, sometimes it's debatable, sometimes it flops. I'd say Whedon is a special case. While it's entirely possible others could have contacted the big two for work, I don't think they had as much of a fanbase from their outside work screaming for them to do comics.

...No because I'm a writer not an artist. I should be evaluated on a script that I wrote, not on what an artist drew based on what I wrote.

If I'm going to pitch something to a publisher I don't mind going through the expense and bother of paying an artist, but I should have to spend $100 to get finished art just so my portfolio will be evaluated.

I just don't buy the excuse that "It takes more time to read a proposal." I know an agent who claims to be able to judge a writer's talent by reading the first paragraph of a novel. A 22 page script takes maybe 15 minutes to read, and if your schedule is so busy you can't find 15 minutes you probably shouldn't be going to a Con in the first place.

So basically to answer my question unless I'm part of a package deal I'm wasting my time and money approaching editors at cons

Looking around at various websites for companies that accept writer only submissions, I'll add my 2 cents here.

Most smaller companies just don't have the resources to hook a writer up with an artist. But if you (generally speaking) can get some quality sample/finished pages together with an artist, you've shown them that not only can you live up to your initial end of the deal by producing the script, but you've proven
you can work /with/ an artist.

Personally, contacting an artist that I don't already know is simply beyond my budget and means right now. If I happen to find someone while I'm working on a couple of concepts, it would be awesome as it would improve both of our chances multiple-fold, but for now I'll do what I can.

Considering how much stuff an editor is likely to look through at a covention, yes, it is somewhat unreasonable for them to take 15 odd minutes to look through a script when they can glance at artwork and finished pages.

[Phatman]

As an artist who goes to most of the major cons every year I'd suggest a more productive approach to cons. If editors from most publishers don't want to see your scripts at the cons, then use the time to network with everybody else that you can. If nothing else, go to where the artists are and sell them on your writing. At big shows like Chicago and San Diego I'll be sitting for hours with other artists looking for work who never get approached by all of these writers who can't get a foot in the door-what a waste. If I had even one of them approach me with a really cool idea, I'd draw it for nothing, and we'd both have something in print to show. Yeah, a lot of the artists at the shows are pretty arrogant, want some payment no matter how good or bad they are, etc., but I run into plenty of people with talent that are in the same boat you writers are.

Most of the editors I talk to want to see that you that you have more than just talent. They want to see that you can finish a job, work with others, and produce work on a schedule. Small press and self-publishing are really the only routes to go to prove any of this. Build a relationship with these editors before the cons with your work that you are producing. They'll know that you are serious if they are getting books in their mail from you every month, and if the work is good, would be more approachable in the convention setting. "Hey, did you get to read the 10 issues of my indy comic that I've been sending you for the last year" can lead into a real conversation and feedback on your writing. "Will you read my script?" from some stranger that approches you at a con is probably going nowhere. Editors are fans of comics and will be more likely to read comics if you send them to them.

Writing comics professionally is probably one of the toughest things to get into. As an artist who often witnesses their frustrations at the cons, I feel for a lot of the writers that show up and try to get their voice heard by editors. However, the game is what it is. Use the time to find artists to bring your ideas to life, build relationships with other writers in the same boat as you, meet your online bretheren in person, and talk to as many writers who have made it and learn from their successes and failures.

[DarkOra]

So...

1.) Set aside from the argument, how does the writer approach an editor at the con?
2.) And the best place to do it?
3.) And should it be in a folder? Binder? Trapper Keeper?
4.) If it's not very good art with your writing, show it anyway?

Sorry, just not getting a clear picture from the previous posts is all.
Back to the original topic here (thanks for pointing it back on track, bezelleo)... I was chatting with writer (and former editor) Paul Benjamin at an informal creator meeting in Austin a few weeks back, and he mentioned that the current issue of Write Now! (issue #12) has a piece he put together on submitting and pitching to editors including information from a number of editors in the industry. I finally got a chance to pick up a copy and read through it on my flight this morning, and it does have a lot of helpful advice in it dealing with this subject. The magazine also has an excellent article called "Breaking Into Comics (and staying in) for Writers" by Marvel editor, Andy Schmidt.

My personal advice... just keep at it. Practice writing every day to keep improving, keep on making comics, stay passionate about your craft and keep on making friends in or out of the industry. You'd be surprised who some people know--I didn't find out until after years of marriage that my wife went to college and was good friends with a pro comic artist and an inker.

You just never know when any of those will lead to opportunity. I've had writers and editors I've befriended and chatted with (at cons or through email) refer me (or hire me) for projects. I've had a 5-page story (just 5 little pages) lead to a spec script request from an editor. I've had editors contact me after reading some of my message board posts and following the link to my website. And my current work on one of Valentino's books at Image/Shadowline came about because a writer friend (who runs his stuff by me for quick sanity copyediting checks) introduced me to an editor at a convention. We got into lots of good discussions about comics and the business of comics. Never pushed to pitch anything (but I did give her free copies of my completed comic stories because she showed an interest in them), and nearly a year later, the editor (after finding out I was prior military and good at military research) walked me over to Jim at the San Diego con and said, "Here's our writer for Task Force 1."

[Scribe]

There's tons of talent up and coming artists on this board that you might want to try to collaberate with- because eventually you might want to get your head around to that concept because making a comic book is a team effort.

I get that it's a team effort, and I get it’s a visual medium, but the market has shown time over that the audience responds to good writing, arguably more so than good art.

It's not that I'm unprofessional. Typically I get shut down after introducing myself and asking if the editor would like to see my writing portfolio. They all say no in various degrees of politeness, I thank them for their time and walk away. I occasionally leave a business card that I know ends up a hotel trashcan.

I also haven't had any luck meeting editors outside of their tables either. Whenever I recognize someone they're always involved in conversation with someone else and it seems impolite to stand around and try to break into a group of friends.

When you consider the big comic cons I've been to takes between $800 and $1,000 to attend it's really frustrating.

I'm done with attending comic cons. I just cancelled my reservations to Wizard World Chicago. They just aren't worth the time, money and effort to stand in lines not to be noticed.

I'm just going to focus on the areas of my writing where I do make money and advance my career.

[MARK A ROBINSON]

[QUOTE=bezelleo]So...

1.) Set aside from the argument, how does the writer approach an editor at the con?

- I would go for someone who isn't as occupied.Like assistant editors. These are the editors of tomorrow- and you can get more info out of them-and perhaps get them to pass along you work to an editor.

2.) And the best place to do it?
During the show. Not when a big name creator is signing. forget about that. Do it when it's slow.Sundays are great for this-

3.) And should it be in a folder? Binder? Trapper Keeper?
I would do it in something neat,handy,and presentable.If you can get it with artwork attached- put it in a packet. seal it. hand it over. keep it quick and neat.


4.) If it's not very good art with your writing, show it anyway?
If it's not good art- don't show it. If you question it because you don't have confidence in it- what makes you think an editor will? Go with your gut. If you can't get an artist on your proposal that you feel represents your vision- ( don't go overboard on being super critical either) then i'd say just wait...good things come to those who do.

Hope this helps more than my previous post. Good luck!

best,
M

[Phatman]

I get that it's a team effort, and I get it’s a visual medium, but the market has shown time over that the audience responds to good writing, arguably more so than good art.

You are completely wrong.

If anything is proven by the Big Two, it's people will buy a popular artist's work regardless of how bad the story is. I'll agree to some extent you need to have good stories for artist's to tell to have an ongoing book be successful and stand the test of time. However, if recent history has proven anything (see anything from Image from the previous decade) pretty pictures with no story will outsell good writing with poor art every time. This doesn't excuse this dynamic, but it's a fact of the current state of the medium.

I'm just going to focus on the areas of my writing where I do make money and advance my career.

Save your con money and pay somebody to draw one of your books and get it published. Send that to an editor or give it to him at a con. If you want to wrtie comics-write comics, not pitches to editors.

[MARK A ROBINSON]

I get that it's a team effort, and I get it’s a visual medium, but the market has shown time over that the audience responds to good writing, arguably more so than good art.

It's not that I'm unprofessional. Typically I get shut down after introducing myself and asking if the editor would like to see my writing portfolio. They all say no in various degrees of politeness, I thank them for their time and walk away. I occasionally leave a business card that I know ends up a hotel trashcan.

I also haven't had any luck meeting editors outside of their tables either. Whenever I recognize someone they're always involved in conversation with someone else and it seems impolite to stand around and try to break into a group of friends.

When you consider the big comic cons I've been to takes between $800 and $1,000 to attend it's really frustrating.

I'm done with attending comic cons. I just cancelled my reservations to Wizard World Chicago. They just aren't worth the time, money and effort to stand in lines not to be noticed.

I'm just going to focus on the areas of my writing where I do make money and advance my career.

Congratz Scribe-

you officially are a struggling artist.

I'll admit though-I'm alil confused about what you are looking for out of this thread - I'd like to ask you this- How long have you been at this bizness? The comic bizness that is. I'm hoping you say 10 years to have such a negative view on things.

No one is an overnight success. And yes...I hate to break it to all of the writer's out there- ( i am one of them as well) but yeah- comics are a VISUAL medium. it's the whole hook. Not taking anything away from all the talented writters out there- but Comic books without pictures are called books. i know it's crazy.

The market will always respond to art. If Jim Lee draws Howard the duck- it's be a top ten book. Let's not be foolish.

You sound jaded. And to be honest- it happens...if you hang out in comics enough- it can get rough. Being an artist ( that includes writters) means you have to have a certain threshold to endure pain and suffering- hence the term- "Starving artist." Gotta pay those dues man...I'm sure Bendis was eating Ramen noodles just like the rest of us before he became editor in chief at marvel...I mean...top writer...LOL.

Maybe you should take some time off it and do the other thing that you do. (or spoke of doing) I realized comics are suppose to be fun. And no one likes a sour puss...

especially one writing their favorite super-heroes.something to think about.

And it's a shame you're not coming to chicago man- i'd say stop by my table and I'll buy you a beer- or two!

Best,
M.

[Scribe]

You sound jaded. And to be honest- it happens...if you hang out in comics enough- it can get rough. Being an artist ( that includes writters) means you have to have a certain threshold to endure pain and suffering- hence the term- "Starving artist." Gotta pay those dues man...I'm sure Bendis was eating Ramen noodles just like the rest of us before he became editor in chief at marvel...I mean...top writer...LOL.


I've been supporting myself by writing since I graduated college, which was paid for by a writing scholarship so technically I've been supporting myself for 12 years through writing. I have a credit list going back to when I was 16. I worked in the middle of no where for four years living just above the poverty line. I paid my dues and did it well.

I started this thread to find out if I was doing something wrong, or if there was just no good way to approach editors at cons. It's good to know that its not just me who can't get traction at cons. I don't have enough money to spend $1,000 to go to Chicago knowing there is no work is will come out of it, so its been a good thread.

The only non-writing con I'm going to go to for a while is Dragon*Con, just because its fun and its in my back yard.

I think I'm just going to leave this whole industry alone because editors aren't just making it needlessly difficult, but by refusing to talk to people who spent a lot of time and money just to get five minutes of their time are trying to make it impossible.

But also if Joss Whedon or a number of high profile writers would write Howard the Duck I'd buy it, and I know I wouldn't be alone.

[xtylerx]

Yeah, this thread goes from heartbreaking to inspiring and back again.

The main thing I am taking away from this is something I already knew - do comics for the love of, not for money. There has been some other helpful information, sure, but reallythe main thing I've learned to never pitch at a con.

So the thread, in way, has imploded; there is no good way to straight up pitch, unsolicited. It's all about contacts/networking. I can deal with that...

*note to self - work on social skills.

damn.

ps - I still have mad love for cons. I just made my hotel reservations for WWChicago and I am SUPER STOKED. But I get hype on buying pages, jocking artists/writers I dig, going to new (vegan) restaurants, finding great comic deals & generally being a spaz.

[MARK A ROBINSON]

Yeah, this thread goes from heartbreaking to inspiring and back again.

The main thing I am taking away from this is something I already knew - do comics for the love of, not for money. There has been some other helpful information, sure, but reallythe main thing I've learned to never pitch at a con.

So the thread, in way, has imploded; there is no good way to straight up pitch, unsolicited. It's all about contacts/networking. I can deal with that...

*note to self - work on social skills.

damn.

ps - I still have mad love for cons. I just made my hotel reservations for WWChicago and I am SUPER STOKED. But I get hype on buying pages, jocking artists/writers I dig, going to new (vegan) restaurants, finding great comic deals & generally being a spaz.


Yeah I know what you mean xtylerx- it's heartbreaking at times. And yes...I found out alongggg time ago that there is no money in comics- and if i want to be happy with it- just do it because i love it.

As for working on social skills- I've been reading this link off and on- just to remind myself of presentation- this guy's got a pretty good head on his shoulders-


http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1983887

As for NOT pitching at a con- it's a crap shoot really- I can't say i'm against it- Artist alley is great for having people interested in you - come to you. No muss. No fuss. We go to the con to have a good time- see what our peers are doing- try to get more work- blah blah blah.

I brought a pitch with me last year- and got a book deal.( it was with Speakeasy and collasped but those are the brakes) Got a sit down @ Vertigo, and ending up making some cash and some new friends to boot...

And I'm gonna do it all over agian!

I can't wait for the con- maybe i'll see you in Philly or chi-town!:carrot:

Best,
M.

[bezelleo]

Thanks guys! Some very valuable feedback here.
Kinda makes me wish I was an artist though. :(

[daweir]

the market has shown time over that the audience responds to good writing, arguably more so than good art.

I think I wrote about this once before. :yawn: Cover = Get attention. Interior Art = Convince reader to buy, then guide the reader through the story. Writing = bring reader back next month.

So no, the audience does not respond more to good writing than good art. Bad art can kill good writing (Ahem. X-Statix ). Good writing generally does not save good art. On the reverse, Bad writing can decimate good art, but many people are willing to forgive a crappy story if their favorite artist is on it (ahem, Michael Turner).


It's not that I'm unprofessional. Typically I get shut down after introducing myself and asking if the editor would like to see my writing portfolio.

I have only had the one opportunity to show my work, and it was NOT because I asked to. I don't know what to tell you about this, buddy, but you need to make them want to ask you. Figuring out how is another matter.


When you consider the big comic cons I've been to takes between $800 and $1,000 to attend it's really frustrating.

If the only reason you are going to a convention is to ask an editor to look at your work, you're there for the wrong reason anyway.

There are three categories of people who attend Conventions. Most attendees fall into two of the three categories.

1- Those who love comic books and are there to celebrate that love by talking to other fans, buying loads of cool (usually useless) crap, trading comics memorabilia and getting sneak peeks into upcoming coolness.

2- Those who are in the industry. The editors, the artists, the writers, the whoever.

3- Wanna-bes.

People in category 2 have a 99.9999% chance of being in category 1 as well. People in category 3 tend to be in category 1 as well. However, there are the occasional people in category 3 that do not fall into category 1, and thus have less than a 1% chance of entering category 2.

In other words, go because you have a love for the medium. If you go, you meet people, you network. Eventually that pays off.

Another way to look at it: Are you in a relationship? If so, did you meet the love of your life when you were searching for love? Or did it just happen to come upon you when you were ready? This is not that much different. MY chance to show off my work came when I was NOT looking for it. That doesn't mean you don't have to do the work, it just means you'd better be enjoying everything else too.


I'm done with attending comic cons. I just cancelled my reservations to Wizard World Chicago. They just aren't worth the time, money and effort to stand in lines not to be noticed.

Sounds like a place in line just opened up for someone else. Your loss. They won't notice you because you're pushing your work. They're more likely to notice you because you are a writer who is NOT.

For example, my (lost) chance to show off came when I asked an editor how HE would handle a particular issue. Not once did I ask him to read my script. I just told him the problem I was having and asked how he thought I should handle it. Now, granted, he'd seen the work of the artist I was talking about having the trouble with, but his interest came because I was treating him as a PERSON, whose opinion mattered to me. I wasn't begging for a job.


I'm just going to focus on the areas of my writing where I do make money and advance my career.

And, at long last, we come to the root of the problem.

You're in it for the wrong reason, buddy. Not a thing in your post(s) leads me to believe you are pursuing this for any great love of the medium. You HAVE to have it. You have to LOVE it. And you have to be willing to put all the work in the world into it, for NO return. If you aren't willing to risk all that, you won't ever see the gain.

It's a lot like playing poker. You're dealt a hand. You see what you've got. You decide how much it's worth to you and you gamble on it. You're up against some fierce opposition, people who want your chips. Your job is to decide how much to gamble on your hand. You need to know what it's worth, how much you're willing to lose, and how much you have to throw away so that the NEXT hand can have some value. Lose one hand, you might just find yourself winning the next.

I hope you find your path.

[Phatman]

Daweir makes many excellent points and really hits the nail on the head.

[Toyandgadgetguy]

Sounds more like a thread about how you'd like the convention scene to work, rather than how it does, Scribe. The margin for a successful contact for a writer at a con is a slim one... and getting slimmer all the time. If getting your work looked at is your goal, you're going to have to be creative. It's obvious that standing on a line to have your work read by someone who isn't really there to read scripts on the spot (even if that's what you think they should be doing) isn't really working out for you. Get other people to read your scripts... artists, inkers, everyone. Generate your own buzz... the editors will catch up.

Spend that time on line with the editor coming up with other things to break the ice. Don't slap your story down on the table till you're asked to. Try something different (and I have no clue what would work best... that's a trial and error kinda thing). Ask them how they became an editor (because people like to talk about themselves). Or ask them for a signature... as you collect editors signatures... telling them that they're vastly under appreciated in the industry (casually mentioning how thankfully, writers are finally getting some recognition... and HEY, you happen to BE a writer.). Wear a goofy t-shirt that says something like WRITERS- Speeling does count! (yea, I know that someone else spellchecks, but it'd catch an editors attention, and maybe get you talking about it.... it beats my 'wearing a purple tophat with a daisy in it' plan.) Bring in pens with 'Scribe- writer for hire.' printed on them. Give them out. Do something... anything but give up.

There are tons of people with a story that goes: "I tried submitting for years... and they wouldn't give me the time of day... even at the cons I was dismissed." (you've never heard of this because nobody hears about the quitters) The trick is to have a story that goes: There are tons of people with a story that goes "I tried submitting for years... and they wouldn't give me the time of day... even at the cons I was dismissed... until one day..."

If you're serious about breaking in, you're going to need a lucky break. Maybe you're good enough to create your own lucky break... if not, increase your odds by increasing your approach.

[daweir]

1. Buy a funny costume.

2. Wear it to a convention.

3. Call yourself SCRIPT MAN!

4. Fight the crime of ignoring writers, in costume, at a convention.



If the editors don't pay attention to you then.... nothing will work!

[jrod]

There’s a lot here and a lot of great points on both sides, honestly. I think I want to just lay out some of my own experiences, as an editor (although not for a big two, of course).

When I first started doing cons I was looking for writing work. I actually put some pitches together and, honestly, if they don’t look as good as the stuff the publisher is currently putting out; no-one’s even going to look that hard at it. It’s an unfortunate fact but most small press publishers want to see a pitch as you see it being published. They don’t have the resources available to pair you up with an artist and if you come with your own team it’s assumed you have that aspect under control.

Just to digress for a bit. Some of you know I’m putting together a book called POSTCARDS. 15 teams were put together for the book and in most cases the teams came complete. One of the guys in the book – comic book legend. I’m not talking Bendis, I’m talking legend. Movies, TV, a bit of a pop-culture icon (my mom knew who he was and she hasn’t picked up a comic in decades and when she was reading – all she read was Archie. She honestly knows two guys in comics, Stan Lee and this guy) and still doing great, important work in the industry. He needed an artist, though. And whereas you think it would be easy to find an artist for this guy, for an 8-page story, it took me about a month to find someone with the talent necessary that would do it for the opportunity alone. And this is a book with a great concept, amazing line-up and for a story from a guy that everyone who reads the book will read.

It’s hard for a small press publisher to find an artist for a guy if there’s no chemistry there to begin with. At that point, it’s a job for the artist, and most people expect to get paid for a job.

Moving along, whereas I wasn’t finding work at cons, I was meeting people. I met Jay Busbee at a con who introduced me to Josh Fialkov who brought me on as editor for WESTERN TALES OF TERROR and ELK’S RUN. Through WToT I got to work with people like Phil Hester and Stuart Moore – I then met them at conventions and kept the relationship going. When I needed to call on them for help or contacts or whatever, it was easy – I had that relationship. It was connections like that that made POSTCARDS easy to put together.

At the same time, behind the H&B booth as an editor, I met people who handed off mini-comics to me. I made friends with them and eventually started looking at their scripts and pitches. Three of these guys ended up being in POSTCARDS (of course, they’ve all been published between the conventions and POSTCARDS but I knew them from before that). And when we had open submissions, although James Powell was handling the subs, if someone came down who I’ve been friendly with in the past I let James know. Because I want to make sure the people in my book aren’t just great writers, but I wanted to make sure that if they’re at my booth at a convention, they can represent my company and not scare off customers.

So it’s a process, you know? You meet people online, follow up with them at conventions, keep in touch with them. And you keep plugging away, eventually one of you will get a lead and start sharing the wealth, as it where.

Because, Scribe, like you said – this industry isn’t geared towards writers at all. In the big leagues it is, yes, once you’ve “proven yourself”. But down here, there’s strength in numbers.

[xtylerx]

First off, lemme say, Western Tales of Terror is an awesome book.

Second, this may be too much of a derivation from the initial topic, but what might be an effective way to pitch to artists?

I have no experience actually getting published, and I would like to get something out there, eventually. I realize the independent route is the most likely avenue, and I am actually kind of excited about that. I grew up listening to punk rock and skateboarding and all that counterculture-type crap, and the prospect of DIY still holds some magic for me.

With that said, I have made a few forays into the recruitment realm, and - with no offense intended to any artists who may be reading - the most effective method of recruitment seems to be $$. I know we all need to make a living, illustrators included, and I know this is a topic much discussed in the writing forums, but what is an appropriate pitch to an artist, and is there any particular decorum to it? To date, I have simply pitched willy nilly - to any artist not with the big publishers. It seems, though, that any talented artist is already attached to some legitimate publisher/job. Any artist worth 2 cents that you may see on any one of these messageboards is swamped with amateur writers (such as myself) sweating them super hard to either do a project for free, or just for money.

My question is: how can I not look like a hack? (That question is way funnier than I meant it to be). And also, what is the etiquette of the pitch? I mean, should I not pitch do a guy who's done work for DC, or a guy who has a catalogue of work (independent or otherwise), as I am inexperienced?

[jrod]

First off, lemme say, Western Tales of Terror is an awesome book.

Second, this may be too much of a derivation from the initial topic, but what might be an effective way to pitch to artists?

I have no experience actually getting published, and I would like to get something out there, eventually. I realize the independent route is the most likely avenue, and I am actually kind of excited about that. I grew up listening to punk rock and skateboarding and all that counterculture-type crap, and the prospect of DIY still holds some magic for me.

With that said, I have made a few forays into the recruitment realm, and - with no offense intended to any artists who may be reading - the most effective method of recruitment seems to be $$. I know we all need to make a living, illustrators included, and I know this is a topic much discussed in the writing forums, but what is an appropriate pitch to an artist, and is there any particular decorum to it? To date, I have simply pitched willy nilly - to any artist not with the big publishers. It seems, though, that any talented artist is already attached to some legitimate publisher/job. Any artist worth 2 cents that you may see on any one of these messageboards is swamped with amateur writers (such as myself) sweating them super hard to either do a project for free, or just for money.

My question is: how can I not look like a hack? (That question is way funnier than I meant it to be). And also, what is the etiquette of the pitch? I mean, should I not pitch do a guy who's done work for DC, or a guy who has a catalogue of work (independent or otherwise), as I am inexperienced?

I think what I said before holds. Make friends, make connections, and know exactly what you’re putting together.

For my WToT#5 story that I wrote, I had a bit more wiggle room. I contacted Marco and asked him if he was interested in doing a three-pager (low commitment) and the book features Tony Moore, Steve Niles, Juan Ferreyra & Jason Rand, Scott Mills, Kieron Dweyer, etc. That’s an easy pitch no matter what your story is. For the back-up I wrote for ER#2 it was the same deal, critical acclaim, the book just got the ‘A’ in Entertainment Weekly and getting an artist wasn’t difficult.

So there’s the “this will be in a great book” pitch.

For the other stuff – I would suggest you never just cold-email someone and pitch. If you can have someone introduce you, that’s great (especially at a convention bar). If you can find out what message board they hang out at and try to befriend them like that, that’s fine too. And then you just feel them out, see what they like to work on, and eventually force an opening where you tell them this idea that’s right up their alley and see if they’re interested. If the artist still wants money, it’ll likely be at a reduced rate if he likes the pitch and he likes you.

Then there’s my favorite way to find artist and the method I’ve used for my last four anthology projects. Locals. Where in Wisconsin are you? The DC Conspiracy (http://www.dcconspiracy.com) is a local group I hooked up with from early on. It’s 90% artists. We hang out at least once a month, drink beers, make comics, etc. Not once a year at conventions. We occasionally hang out outside of our monthly meetings. All of them great guys, and when I get the opportunity to write a story for a book, I throw it out to them first.

Again, it works for them as well. So far two of them are in POSTCARDS. Strength in numbers, can’t stress that enough.

[xtylerx]

So basically you're saying that I can't just sit on my ass and expect people to want to work with me? Damn. Oh well, I guess I better go out, hang with people I have stuff in common with and make friends and do something we all enjoy.

you make this sound like such a brutal, un-fun job.

BTW I live in Madison, Wisconsin. College town.

[jrod]

So basically you're saying that I can't just sit on my ass and expect people to want to work with me? Damn. Oh well, I guess I better go out, hang with people I have stuff in common with and make friends and do something we all enjoy.

you make this sound like such a brutal, un-fun job.

BTW I live in Madison, Wisconsin. College town.

That took five minutes (http://www.studioantithesis.com/index.phtml). I'm sure there're more. Check Craig's List, too, we advertise the DCC meet-ups there every month.

[xtylerx]

You make me feel ashamed of myself. :nyah:

[DarkOra]

Second, this may be too much of a derivation from the initial topic, but what might be an effective way to pitch to artists?
Here's some advice I gave to a friend a while back (March of 2004) on finding artist collaborators at conventions:

> I'm looking for an artist for something at Wizard, too, so if you have any
> pointers on how to get someone...
>

Unfortunately, the very best way is also the most time-consuming...setting up a table or booth at the con and doing portfolio reviews. That's how I found Seth at Wizard World Chicago (found 1 person out of dozens of portfolios reviewed). Your best option without a table is to go through Artist's Alley, introduce yourself and just chat with everyone there. And if you feel comfortable telling me what kind of art style you're looking for and what kind of genre...I'll keep an eye out for artists for you while I'm there.

Tips for finding collaborators:

1 - Tell them who you are and what you've worked on. Easiest way to get them to open up and start talking about the stuff they do.

2 - Show a genuine interest in them and their work (engage them in friendly conversation and ask them open-ended questions to get them to talk about their past accomplishments in comics/drawing).

3 - Look through their sample pages (or comic) and ask some good questions like "This page must have been tough to draw...how long did it take you?", which gives you a feel for their drawing time. Get a good idea about their work ethics and confidence level (kind of like a sneaky interview). Also, find out what subject matters they love to draw...getting someone that loves the same genre of your project makes for a much easier collaboration. It's a little late probably, but it helps to know art from an academic standpoint...being able to talk "artist" with them also helps to open them up. I used to work on a daily cartoon strip in the military for a few months (wrote, pencilled, inked, colored, and hand-lettered every page), and I've studied both art and journalism (laying out newspaper and yearbook pages by hand really helped me learn a lot about page composition/layout and how to guide the reader's eye through the page). Knowing their craft as well as your own really makes things great (and if you find an artist that has talent and potential but a little weak with storytelling, they might collaborate with you just to learn some more from you and get experience and exposure).

4 - Try to find out in the conversation how busy they are--some artists overcommit and some are just getting started and hungry for more projects.

5 - Don't ask them if they'll draw your project!!! If you think they've got the skills and they give you an opening like mentioning that they're looking for something new to work on, then take it. That's when you go, "Hey, I have this project that your artwork would go with really well." If they don't give you an opening but have lots of potential for your project, exchange business cards and contact them within a week of the con. This reinforces your name to them and lets them know you really liked their artwork. Then ask them what projects they have going on, so you can keep an eye out for their stuff. Their reply to this question will usually give you a good indication of whether they can handle any more projects. And if they say they don't have much going on...then you can reply to ask them if they're currently looking for something.

6 - Don't be this long-winded when talking with them. :)
And we can even take this back to the original topic... the guy that I helped out with this advice is a big-time editor for a publisher now. As I mentioned before... make friends, be helfpul, and you never know what doors might open up in the future.

And it's not just for writers looking for work. At that same show, I met an artist with some incredible artwork who had actually read some of my stories from Digital Webbing Presents. He introduced me to his roommate at the time who was an associate editor at a publisher. The artist was then looking for some portfolio reviews at the convention (which, aside from his connection at the one publisher, seemed scarce to him), so I took him around and introduced him to a bunch of editors and industry professionals I already knew. He got invited by a few places to send in some samples, and he's doing a book for one of those publishers now. He made friends (knew of my work), was helpful (introduced me to an editor I didn't know), and I turned around and introduced him to a bunch of people I'd met over the years from going to conventions. Comics Karma in action.

[Scribe]

You're in it for the wrong reason, buddy. Not a thing in your post(s) leads me to believe you are pursuing this for any great love of the medium. You HAVE to have it. You have to LOVE it. And you have to be willing to put all the work in the world into it, for NO return. If you aren't willing to risk all that, you won't ever see the gain.


You don't know me, so don't insult me.

I don't know a single professional writer who doesn't evaluate payment before taking on a project. Does that mean they're all jaded hacks? No, it means we're all people with families to feed and roofs to keep over our heads.

You can love comics all you want, but it seems like if you don't have money to put into it as a writer what are you going to do?

Maybe it was a little naive of me to think that editors would evaluate my work, but I've gotten a number of assignments by approaching editors in other publishing forms that way.

[daweir]

You don't know me, so don't insult me.


Just an observation, but I think you need to relax a bit. I wasn't insulting you. I was making an observation, and one that is sound and justifiable by the discussion thus far. It was not, and never will be, my intention to insult you. And, honestly, the tendency to take criticism as an insult is only going to hurt in the comic business.


I don't know a single professional writer who doesn't evaluate payment before taking on a project. Does that mean they're all jaded hacks? No, it means we're all people with families to feed and roofs to keep over our heads.

You can love comics all you want, but it seems like if you don't have money to put into it as a writer what are you going to do?


I never called you a hack, or even jaded. But if you want to get into comics, you have to accept the possibility that you might be shelling out money yourself first. Only rarely do you see otherwise. Orson Scott Card recently did it with Ultimate Iron Man. And then.... he quit. Kevin Smith... quit.

Establishment means exactly jack. Even the pros from other fields quit, or are unreliable.


Maybe it was a little naive of me to think that editors would evaluate my work, but I've gotten a number of assignments by approaching editors in other publishing forms that way.

First, it's not any other field. Second, it was not naive, it was optimistic. I do not see you as naive. There is nothing wrong with approaching editors. I think you should keep doing it. But you should also do MORE than that.

You are no more deserving of anyone else out there. I hope that doesn't offend you, but it is true. You are just as unproven in THIS INDUSTRY as I am. So what makes us different?

That's the key.

Why you?

So don't give up. Keep on truckin', and make them pay attention. But it's going to take work. It all comes back to why you're doing it, and whether you love it. Those who don't will fail. Period.

[jrod]

I apologize for taking this even further off track but there are two things worth talking about, here, without pointing fingers at anyone in particular.

1) I think everyone can benefit from Warren Ellis’s Engine just for hearing his comments at times – it’s a humbling experience. He’s a man who fully understands, and has no problem stating, that he needs to work his ass off to keep getting gigs. That not even he has things handed to him and he needs to constantly stay in front of editors's faces. Even if you’re a “big name”, you’re eventually replaceable. So staying on top of it is always clutch and people aren’t going to seek you out unless you give them reason to.

2) I’m not a fan of the “expect to lose it all” philosophy. I used to live by it, but after seeing how much POSTCARDS is going to cost (168-page hardcovers are not cheap) and after the ELK’S RUN drama (which is thankfully resolved and will be much talked about, soon), publishers don’t expect to lose it all. In turn, editors, who are hired by publishers, don’t expect to lose it all. In turn, writers, who are hired by editors, shouldn’t expect to lose it all.

Break even, fine – you’re a hobbyist with potential to grow. But comics shouldn’t become a money-pit. If they do, you should consider taking it down a couple of notches. If you do it because you love it – you’d love Xeroxing and stapling just as much. Once you get to the publisher/editor level there’s an agreement that you’re approaching the industry as a business.

[daweir]

Due to jrod's post, I want to clarify.

I do not believe you have to lose it all.

I believe you need to be willing to risk something.

There IS a difference.

No risk, no gain.

No love, no success.

No woman, no cry.

[Scribe]

I never called you a hack, or even jaded. But if you want to get into comics, you have to accept the possibility that you might be shelling out money yourself first. Only rarely do you see otherwise. Orson Scott Card recently did it with Ultimate Iron Man. And then.... he quit. Kevin Smith... quit.

So saying I was pursuing comics more for a low level paycheck rather than for the love of the game wasn't an insult... sure thing.

I haven't met a writer yet, except poets, who don't want to get paid for their work. Mickey Spillane writer the Mike Hammer series, and also comics, once said "The difference between a writer and an author is that an author writes in hope of recognition after his death, a writer writes to make money, I'm a writer."

He wrote "I, Jury" in three weeeks because he needed to buy land for a house and it has sold more than eight million copies. Wanting to make money through writing is not a bad thing, and it does not always affect your art.

Also they bring in writers from other fields all the time. Most of the writers in comics got their start writing something else, a few high profile ones don't work out, but a lot of writers with established credentials elsewhere succeed in this business.

[MARK A ROBINSON]

I've been to two cons now and everytime where I've waited in line to talk to an editor like artists do I'm either politely, or impolitely told I'm not wanted before I can say like five words.

As writers is there a good way to meet editors at Cons, is it possible, or is there just no good way to approach them ever if you're a writer?

Any tips or war stories would be appreciated.



I thought I'd post your original statement to see how far off the path we are-(or have gotten for that matter)

You started this thread to get ( what i'm hoping for was-) positive feedback. You got some. But still you come out defensive and guns blazing at anyone "questioning" your motives,intergrity...blah,blah, and a blah.

And for someone who also wants just 5 words of an editors time has alot to say. I have the same problem- my brain is on the fast track to blabbermouth at times... I have to learn to edit myself...it's hard. I am still a work in progress.

I think you have made your decision based on some bad experiences that trying to get in the biz is pointless and everyone is out to get you...blah.blah. and blah.
I have heard so many cats in this biz say things like-

"i have a family" and "i have bills to pay" and my fav "i'm so much better than that" - and you know what- you always will have these issues- that's life. You seem like a smart guy...i'm sure you can figure that out. That's a "big talk" for most writer's who have little to stand on...if nothing.

Like someone else said- then make room for others,brother because you're standing in my light... Because there will always be someone out there more hungry, More talented, and more motivated than you ( and at times...will work for free just to gain exposure!). I hope this all doesn't hurt your feelings much- I've seen your posts and like what you have to say- i said it before,and I'll say it again- I think you're a pretty intelligent guy.

Jus' sometimes an artist needs his feelings hurt to realize they are not the center of everything.

Something to think about.

Best,
M.

[Scribe]

"i have a family" and "i have bills to pay" and my fav "i'm so much better than that" - and you know what- you always will have these issues- that's life. You seem like a smart guy...i'm sure you can figure that out. That's a "big talk" for most writer's who have little to stand on...if nothing.

Like someone else said- then make room for others,brother because you're standing in my light... Because there will always be someone out there more hungry, More talented, and more motivated than you (and at times...will work for free just to gain exposure!). I hope this all doesn't hurt your feelings much- I've seen your posts and like what you have to say- i said it before,and I'll say it again- I think you're a pretty intelligent guy.


It doesn't have anything to do with ego, its about not upsetting your client list. How can you justify charging someone for your work when you are willing to give it away free or even pay to produce it. Any writer who works with ongoing clients has to face that issue.

That said I have worked for free in the past, and will continue to do so, but when you cross that line from someone who demands payment for your services so to a publisher of your own work it can create a tricky stituation that can negatively affect your income.

Also, maybe its just the anti-establishment journalist in me, but at the core of my being I just don't think writing should be a "Pay to play" enterprise because it closes the door on too many good writers. How many great comic book writers have we missed because editors have been too busy at cons to look at their work?

[DarkOra]

What I'm afraid with by self publishing, I have to promote a book that I'm paying for and that will make it harder to get paid by the few fiction clients I have.

It's not that I think I'm better than people who are working for free or self publishing, but its a risk for me that isn't there for a lot of other people.

That and at the core of my being I just don't think writing should be a "Pay to play" enterprise because it closes the door on too many good writers that way.
Just a quick question for you, how much easier is it to pick up work from magazine and newspaper editors if you have clips to show them? A self-published comic (or just a POD comic that's only mailed out to contacts), a webcomic, collection of short comic stories published in anthologies, or even just a binder full of printed out short stories you collaborated with artist (or artists) on (so you both have projects in your portfolio) serves the same purpose.

Another aspect about working with an artist for something is it automatically brings in Jason's great tip... strength in numbers. Now, you have an artist that can promote your work to people he/she meets, and you can spread the word about them to people you meet. Every little bit helps... I've been writing portfolio script requests off and on for years now for artists, and I do them for free as long as the artist makes sure to toss my name around in the credits while showing off the pages.

[kdmelrose]

It doesn't have anything to do with ego, its about not upsetting your client list. How can you justify charging someone for your work when you are willing to give it away free or even pay to produce it. Any writer who works with ongoing clients has to face that issue.

Whether or how much you charge isn't anyone's business but yours. I work free-lance as a writer, editor and designer, but I also write (for free) for a couple of websites and dip my toe into the self-publishing pool. My paying clients have never asked what, or if, I charged for other jobs.

They either like my work and pay me what that work is worth ... or they don't. What I do for myself or for other people is none of their concern.

[xtylerx]

So...let's say I get an artist, a guy I know, and we're both pretty much broke. But we put together a comic, or maybe just a short sample, say 6 to 8 pages. In regards to presentation - would I be considered unprofessional if I presented a photocopied book? Like something I copied, folded & stapled myself at xerox, real punk rock like.

[MARK A ROBINSON]

So...let's say I get an artist, a guy I know, and we're both pretty much broke. But we put together a comic, or maybe just a short sample, say 6 to 8 pages. In regards to presentation - would I be considered unprofessional if I presented a photocopied book? Like something I copied, folded & stapled myself at xerox, real punk rock like.

That's perfectly fine.

But some nice photocopies and a script can do it too. just as long as it looks presentable- it should work.

M.

[daweir]

Scribe, man, I just want to say I'm sorry.

I'm sorry that you are so easily offended. I'm sorry that when someone says they weren't trying to offend you, that you feel the need to belabor the point by pointing out things that may or may not have been meant as an insult. I'm sorry that your ego is so easily bruised by someone you don't even know.

With that said, I am also sorry that you don't seem to understand what I'm trying to tell you. You can quote as many people as you want, you can wax poetic, you can engage in sophistry, but none of that will change the fact that there are more people out there who want to write than people who want to hire writers.

You came here, asking for advice, and when you got honest answers from many, many people, you argued with us and told us why we were wrong and why our observations were BS. And then you decided to get offended, when it really wasn't necessary.

So, I wish you the best, but I'm not going to try any more. I'd rather save my energy and time for someone more receptive. I really do hope that you break in, because from what I've seen you could be a real boon to comics. But I just don't think I can help you.

So, I leave it to someone with a lot more patience and a willingness to be ignored.

Cheers
Devon

[Toyandgadgetguy]

Whether or how much you charge isn't anyone's business but yours. I work free-lance as a writer, editor and designer, but I also write (for free) for a couple of websites and dip my toe into the self-publishing pool. My paying clients have never asked what, or if, I charged for other jobs.

They either like my work and pay me what that work is worth ... or they don't. What I do for myself or for other people is none of their concern.

So how much do ya charge?









I kid, I kid. It's up to the buyer to research market value... and make their own decisions. Most will do just as you've said. They'll decide what it's worth to them, and go with you, or not.

[Scribe]

You came here, asking for advice, and when you got honest answers from many, many people, you argued with us and told us why we were wrong and why our observations were BS. And then you decided to get offended, when it really wasn't necessary.

You're right I should apologize, I'm sorry everyone

Basically what I've learned in this thread is that I have to give up on writing comics, at least for several years, and that's not an easy reality to face. What you've seen is just frustration, a raging against the dying of a dream I guess.

It appears to me that you either have to have money or name recognition to break in as a writer, and since I have neither right now I have to walk away.

I figured that comics was a lot like fiction and nonfiction, I didn't have any luck breaking in until I started attending conventions and I wrongly figured comics worked the same way. Its a hard thing to take knowing you gambled and you wasted time and money you really needed elsewhere.

I'm tired of being rejected without being evaluated. I'm tired of pouring my heart and soul into projects that will never go anywhere reguardless of the quality of the material because people aren't looking.

If the only way to get noticed is to sink money in or have name recognition I'll have wait a few years for my triology to get to the shelf and see how they like me then. I guess sometimes the quickest way between two points is to go the other direction.

Thanks everyone, I'm done.

[jrod]

You're right I should apologize, I'm sorry everyone

Basically what I've learned in this thread is that I have to give up on writing comics, at least for several years, and that's not an easy reality to face. What you've seen is just frustration, a raging against the dying of a dream I guess.

It appears to me that you either have to have money or name recognition to break in as a writer, and since I have neither right now I have to walk away.

I figured that comics was a lot like fiction and nonfiction, I didn't have any luck breaking in until I started attending conventions and I wrongly figured comics worked the same way. Its a hard thing to take knowing you gambled and you wasted time and money you really needed elsewhere.

I'm tired of being rejected without being evaluated. I'm tired of pouring my heart and soul into projects that will never go anywhere reguardless of the quality of the material because people aren't looking.

If the only way to get noticed is to sink money in or have name recognition I'll have wait a few years for my triology to get to the shelf and see how they like me then. I guess sometimes the quickest way between two points is to go the other direction.

Thanks everyone, I'm done.

Wow - you're obviously pulling negatives - I think several people told you great ways to get stuff out there.

Whatever. Won't be wasting my time with these threads anymore. Ride your Drama Llama into the sunset and see you in several years.

[ERoy]

Whatever. Won't be wasting my time with these threads anymore. Ride your Drama Llama into the sunset and see you in several years.

I would just like to say that I want a Drama Llama of my very own, and I'm very upset and emotionally depressed that I don't have one.

[Toyandgadgetguy]

You're right I should apologize, I'm sorry everyone

Basically what I've learned in this thread is that I have to give up on writing comics, at least for several years, and that's not an easy reality to face. What you've seen is just frustration, a raging against the dying of a dream I guess.

It appears to me that you either have to have money or name recognition to break in as a writer, and since I have neither right now I have to walk away.

I figured that comics was a lot like fiction and nonfiction, I didn't have any luck breaking in until I started attending conventions and I wrongly figured comics worked the same way. Its a hard thing to take knowing you gambled and you wasted time and money you really needed elsewhere.

I'm tired of being rejected without being evaluated. I'm tired of pouring my heart and soul into projects that will never go anywhere reguardless of the quality of the material because people aren't looking.

If the only way to get noticed is to sink money in or have name recognition I'll have wait a few years for my triology to get to the shelf and see how they like me then. I guess sometimes the quickest way between two points is to go the other direction.

Thanks everyone, I'm done.

After seeing that you were only able to pull what you did out of everything that everyone said to you (an amazingly positive thread as a whole...), I'm wondering if you were really even dismissed by the editors at the cons... or maybe you had gotten some positive advice from them, and failed to see it as such.

I say this with the best of intent. Most folks here tried to encourage you to try alternate methods... to continue... just from a different vector. It's discouraging to see that you were only able to pull out of it a reason to quit.


Basically, a summary.
You: Anyone have any suggestions on how to get an editor to review my writing sample at a con?
Everyone else: Never gonna happen like that. It's like trying to get a chicken to fly. You might see one once, but for the most part... it's just something they don't do. You're targeting the right people, but going about it the wrong way. Try an alternate method.
You: So nobody has a suggestion for me? The only thing for me to do is quit, because I've tried it my way, and it didn't work out.

Some more unsolicited advice. (and I don't mean to be insulting... but rather, to be helpful)
Your work isn't the problem. The problem is you, and your attitude towards this entire approach. (from what I can gather here... which isn't the whole you, but it's enough to catch a glimpse)
You're expecting things to be done on your terms. Do it on theirs. Maybe they can only read scripts when in the bathroom. If so, write out a script on toilet paper and bribe a cleaning lady at the hotel if you have to. (don't take this literally... just think outside the box) A noisy con floor isn't a great place for anyone to read... and to dispense advice on something read on a noisy con floor... even less appealing if you ask me.

My grandfather once said in one of his more sober moments... "getting a job is all about who you know... what you know is how you'll keep it." Your work will sell itself. It already has... getting the interview... THAT's the tough part. Find another way. Don't give up after only trying one or two ways. Cons work well for the visual crowd... the cerebral crowd gets screwed in the end, and has to find the right moment for recognition. Get them to read your work... and we all know now that cons aren't the place where that'll happen.

Ok... I'm getting down from my pedestal now.

[ERoy]

I think some of the issue is that he thinks comics, and breaking into comics, is just like breaking into any other publishing field -- you bring an editor a story, and he reads it. I think the big failing here is that that's how short stories are evaluated, because that's the only way it can be. I know there's more into it, but the basis is there -- if you're trying to break into Isaac Asimov's magazine, the editor HAS to read at least some of the short story to evaluate it, and Scribe thought that that's how you break into comics as well.

As someone already pointed out, it's a visual medium, so the best way to evaluate a story is in the same format it'll be published in. Much like the Isaac Asimov editor reads a short story because that's the format it'll be published in, you look at a comic in the same way.

Much like you wouldn't bring in a painting to show off your short story, I don't know why anyone would think you'd just bring in a script to show off a comic.

[xtylerx]

"getting a job is all about who you know... what you know is how you'll keep it."

That is the number one thing I've learned in this thread, for sure.

[daweir]

Getting a job might have a LOT to do with who you know.....

but a big part of the process is MEETING those people, so you can play off the 'who you know' bit.

Conventions are a primary place to network.

So are sites like this, though to a lesser degree.

Meeting other talents in your area can help, too, because if one of them makes it, they can often take you with them. But be careful not to rely on this.

So, again, it's a multi-part formula.