Green Mountain Gunslinger - 6 page intro

[DannoE]

Hey guys,

New project, based on a nightmare I had a little more than a week ago. I have purposefully NOT included the high concept here yet. This is just an intro to show a little characterization. I'm very much still working on it. I think it's sort of time to move my writing past the Army, and so this one is basically going to be about my family and all of my fears for my little girls.

Anyway, I'm hoping to make this an OGN for between 80-100 pages, and right now my goal is to have that ready for next year's NYC Comic Con.

HAH! We'll see how that goes. Enjoy.

This is very much still a WIP, so comments and thoughts are welcome and appreciated. Thanks!

[daweir]

Hey, DannoE,

Just wanted you to know that, while I haven't actually looked over this thread yet, I do have your work printed out to take to work and read. I just have trouble reading long pieces on the computer.

So don't worry, it's getting read. And there will be comments. Oh yes, there will be comments.

-Devon
:carrot: :banana:

[DannoE]

Cool. Thanks a lot. Can't wait to hear what you have to say.

[daweir]

1- This isn't a huge deal, but I wanted to mention it. If you are including the prologue in the book, you should really notate those pages as 1, 2 and 3, and continue on. You have it as Prologue 1, Prologue 2 and then go into the bulk of the book as page 1, 2, etc. I understand what you're doing, but the prologue IS a part of the same book. Like I said, not a huge deal, and I get it, but you might consider just using uniform pagination.

2- "However, they are merely a suggestion for the artist." I really, really, really suggest taking this section out. Decide what you, as the writer, want in each panel, and state it clearly. When a panel REQUIRES something, make sure you put as much detail about that as possible. When the needs of the panel are less restrictive, let that come through in how you write the panel. It's not a good idea to EVER suggest that the paneling and layouts are up for negotiation, because you could easily end up with something very different than your original vision. That may not be a bad thing, but it could easily be a nightmare. This is YOUR script, make it yours.
On the other hand, it is important to make sure the artist understands that if he has an idea of how to improve a page or panel, he should let you know. A lot of times an artist will come up with an AMAZING visual you wouldn't have thought up, and it would be a shame to let it go. The trick is to trust your artist, but also trust yourself. The key ingredient in a comic writer is the ability to think visually, to SEE the panels as you write them. If you can do that, you shouldn't need to negotiate the panels. And, as far as the artist being able to suggest things to you, don't put that in writing. Let the artist know that you're willing by listening to him when he first comes to you. Trust me, he will.

3- In your original draft, you have an incredibly awkward placement of the credits. But you already knew that, because you mentioned moving them. If you ever feel strongly enough to make that note, you should probably just do it. I agree with your alternate placement, by the way. I generally don't like credits and titles that far into the book, but it would work best with what you have, unless you want to move it earlier somehow. For now, though, I say move it to the creepy shot on the later page.

4- Page 3, Panel 1: "Maybe she screams" should either be "she screams," or not there at all. Obviously, I know this is a first draft, and these are notes to your self. I'm just trying to put emphasis on how important it is that you are clear, concise, and sure of what you've written. NOTE: After reading more, I don't think she screams. If anything, it's a yell of frustration or anger, but not a scream. That suggests panic. It's possible to have her YELL and the allow the reader to draw their own (incorrect) conclusion. It happens all the time.

5- It's probably just me, but I don't really like the inclusion of the page layouts in the first sample (such as on page 5)Page. Let your writing do that. Unless it is IMPERATIVE that the panels look a certain way, the artist can usually do a good job of taking your descriptions and putting them to page. If they can't, get a new artist. And if you MUST have panels a certain way, just write that out.

For example, a scene in my current project has one of the protagonists going up in an elevator, while an antagonist is coming down on the outside of the building. I wanted it to have the feeling of an elevator shaft, so I WROTE in the script that each panel was either on the LEFT or the RIGHT, in a rectangular shape, with the motion leading us smoothly down the page. I then explained WHY. Make sure that when you get THIS specific you tell the artist why, so he can better accomplish the goal.

6- Page 6, Panel 1: I'd go with having the pistols in the belt. Yeah, having both of them sailing through the air might sound cool, but it would work better on film. If even that. You could even do a close up of her hand grabbing the belt triumphantly, then sail into the next panel. Less is more. And don't push our suspension of disbelief TOO far.

7- Page 7, Panels 1 and 2: Brilliant. Nicely done. Nothing else to say about it.

8- And then we hit panel 3, and the caption is awkard. In your script we can figure it out. On the page, it'll be a little harder. I don't want to suggest that all comic readers are stupid, but you have to assume most of them are. Make it as easy to understand your message as possible. Perhaps you could say "He's a good catch..." instead? Refer back to the recent panel? Every time you make a reader pause to understand your meaning, you lose momentum, and the story starts to struggle.

9- Excellent pacing, dialogue, and character development after the zombie fight up to page 14. It was subtle, yet effective.

10- Unless you're going for the old classic style of book, which you might be, you don't need to caption off every change of setting. If done well, the art and story will let us figure that out pretty quickly. But then, a lot of the old classics did that, so if that's what you want, great job!

11- Page 21, panel 5: Unless they still have newspapers, Jack's line of
dialogue doesn't work.

12- I like the tension between Carrie and Jack on the trip. However, I think you should include how the GMRs are reacting to it. Their body language and facial expressions can't be blank, they WILL have a reaction. Even indifference is a reaction, and it should be noted clearly in the script.

Ok, so. That's in response to the first sample. I have a lot more to read, and I'm really looking forward to it. I think you've done a WONDERFUL job establishing the setting and backstory. We know what happened, if not why. We know WHO these people are, and what they are like, as well as what their lives are like. I, at least, care about them. I want to see them overcome their troubles. And, honestly, I don't really like Jack. I love your job characterizing him, but I don't like -him.- That's not a bad thing. Not every reader will like the characters they are supposed to, so even if he's supposed to be this great, wonderful guy, SOMEONE won't like him.

I'll have more to say about this after I read more of your script. All in all, you've got it. Keep it up.

[DannoE]

Thanks man. That's an amazing crit. Thank you so much. You have no idea how helpful this is.

1- This isn't a huge deal, but I wanted to mention it. If you are including the prologue in the book, you should really notate those pages as 1, 2 and 3, and continue on. You have it as Prologue 1, Prologue 2 and then go into the bulk of the book as page 1, 2, etc. I understand what you're doing, but the prologue IS a part of the same book. Like I said, not a huge deal, and I get it, but you might consider just using uniform pagination.

I think I made this change in one of the later edits. At some point, I stopped editting the version on the server. But I've kept fooling with the actual draft itself.

2- "However, they are merely a suggestion for the artist." I really, really, really suggest taking this section out. Decide what you, as the writer, want in each panel, and state it clearly. When a panel REQUIRES something, make sure you put as much detail about that as possible. When the needs of the panel are less restrictive, let that come through in how you write the panel. It's not a good idea to EVER suggest that the paneling and layouts are up for negotiation, because you could easily end up with something very different than your original vision. That may not be a bad thing, but it could easily be a nightmare. This is YOUR script, make it yours.
On the other hand, it is important to make sure the artist understands that if he has an idea of how to improve a page or panel, he should let you know. A lot of times an artist will come up with an AMAZING visual you wouldn't have thought up, and it would be a shame to let it go. The trick is to trust your artist, but also trust yourself. The key ingredient in a comic writer is the ability to think visually, to SEE the panels as you write them. If you can do that, you shouldn't need to negotiate the panels. And, as far as the artist being able to suggest things to you, don't put that in writing. Let the artist know that you're willing by listening to him when he first comes to you. Trust me, he will.

The idea behind giving an artist a choice with what's drawn is a management technique moreso than an actual writing technique. The idea is to give artists a chance to put more of themselves into the script, and I sometimes try to do that by putting in choices for them to make. Theoretically, it gives them a way to buy into the story emotionally.

I've been lucky with artists and collaborators and have yet to have a problem with it, but your point is valid. I've certainly heard it before from other writers I respect.

3- In your original draft, you have an incredibly awkward placement of the credits. But you already knew that, because you mentioned moving them. If you ever feel strongly enough to make that note, you should probably just do it. I agree with your alternate placement, by the way. I generally don't like credits and titles that far into the book, but it would work best with what you have, unless you want to move it earlier somehow. For now, though, I say move it to the creepy shot on the later page.

Yeah. I've made A LOT of changes since this draft. One of them is to fix this by building in a two-page layout into Pages 2-3. I'll update the version on the server in a few minutes.

4- Page 3, Panel 1: "Maybe she screams" should either be "she screams," or not there at all. Obviously, I know this is a first draft, and these are notes to your self. I'm just trying to put emphasis on how important it is that you are clear, concise, and sure of what you've written. NOTE: After reading more, I don't think she screams. If anything, it's a yell of frustration or anger, but not a scream. That suggests panic. It's possible to have her YELL and the allow the reader to draw their own (incorrect) conclusion. It happens all the time.

Good point. I'll do that.

5- It's probably just me, but I don't really like the inclusion of the page layouts in the first sample (such as on page 5)Page. Let your writing do that. Unless it is IMPERATIVE that the panels look a certain way, the artist can usually do a good job of taking your descriptions and putting them to page. If they can't, get a new artist. And if you MUST have panels a certain way, just write that out.

For example, a scene in my current project has one of the protagonists going up in an elevator, while an antagonist is coming down on the outside of the building. I wanted it to have the feeling of an elevator shaft, so I WROTE in the script that each panel was either on the LEFT or the RIGHT, in a rectangular shape, with the motion leading us smoothly down the page. I then explained WHY. Make sure that when you get THIS specific you tell the artist why, so he can better accomplish the goal.

I do the layouts because they help me think my way through the timing of the story. I re-write all the time based on those little layouts. I only leave them in the final script as a means of communicating intent. It's been my experience that about 50% of artists will actually follow those layouts, but they usually look fine when followed verbatim. I've NEVER had someone use them and then go completely off the rails, but I'm sure it'll happen someday.

6- Page 6, Panel 1: I'd go with having the pistols in the belt. Yeah, having both of them sailing through the air might sound cool, but it would work better on film. If even that. You could even do a close up of her hand grabbing the belt triumphantly, then sail into the next panel. Less is more. And don't push our suspension of disbelief TOO far.

Yeah. I'll do that. Good point.

8- And then we hit panel 3, and the caption is awkard. In your script we can figure it out. On the page, it'll be a little harder. I don't want to suggest that all comic readers are stupid, but you have to assume most of them are. Make it as easy to understand your message as possible. Perhaps you could say "He's a good catch..." instead? Refer back to the recent panel? Every time you make a reader pause to understand your meaning, you lose momentum, and the story starts to struggle.

I'll probably wait until it's drawn and then play with it a little. I like your suggestions. Thanks.

9- Excellent pacing, dialogue, and character development after the zombie fight up to page 14. It was subtle, yet effective.
Thanks. Writing relationships is my strong suit IMO. It's one reason why I think I'll never be strictly a comic writer. As Issue #11 of WRITE NOW! points out, if writing dialogue is your best thing, then maybe comics aren't your best medium. I think I'm struggling to use the full potential of comics (as a visual medium) now for this reason.

I'm working on it, but it's a pretty frustrating thing. For whatever reason, I get stuck writing about the real world (as I imagine it), but folks seem to want to read comics about stuff that isn't as real world as I like to write.

10- Unless you're going for the old classic style of book, which you might be, you don't need to caption off every change of setting. If done well, the art and story will let us figure that out pretty quickly. But then, a lot of the old classics did that, so if that's what you want, great job!

Yeah. Thanks. I also use a lot of onomatopoeia.

11- Page 21, panel 5: Unless they still have newspapers, Jack's line of
dialogue doesn't work.

I thought about that when I was writing, but I couldn't think of a better line for Jack to say. So... YES, they have a newspaper in Green Mountain.

12- I like the tension between Carrie and Jack on the trip. However, I think you should include how the GMRs are reacting to it. Their body language and facial expressions can't be blank, they WILL have a reaction. Even indifference is a reaction, and it should be noted clearly in the script.

Another good point. I'll have to re-look that.

Ok, so. That's in response to the first sample. I have a lot more to read, and I'm really looking forward to it. I think you've done a WONDERFUL job establishing the setting and backstory. We know what happened, if not why. We know WHO these people are, and what they are like, as well as what their lives are like. I, at least, care about them. I want to see them overcome their troubles. And, honestly, I don't really like Jack. I love your job characterizing him, but I don't like -him.- That's not a bad thing. Not every reader will like the characters they are supposed to, so even if he's supposed to be this great, wonderful guy, SOMEONE won't like him.

I'll have more to say about this after I read more of your script. All in all, you've got it. Keep it up.
I don't really like Jack, either. I haven't decided if they end up together yet or not, so... I don't know if you SHOULD like Jack. But in his defense, he's in a tough spot, and he's had his heart broken, so he's probably acting a bit more bitter than he normally is in everyday life. Still, few engineers are also the life of the party.

Thanks again for your thoughts. Now I'm jazzed about working on this again.

[daweir]

DannoE,

I'm always happy when I can help someone out, especially another writer. A lot of people don't take me seriously because I don't have anything on the rack yet. Pretty much everything I have in print was a single, one of a kind printing that I did for my kid sisters. So, it's hard to be taken seriously because nobody knows who the hell I am.

I do, however, give my all when trying to help fellow creators. Doing critiques is really hard for me. Occasionally, though, I'll come across something that actually inspires me to do a crit, and then I really let loose!

I want to compliment you on your ability to take a critique. None of your responses came off as excuses (which is what I get at all the workshops I go to), and you took it all in stride. A lot of writers are so fragile that they can't do that. Kudos to you!

Keep working on this story, man. I'm excited about it. I'll be reading the rest of your script at work tonight, because I have REALLY got to finish my submissions for a writing job AND get my updated script to the artist I want to work with on my book. I do, however, want to give you my undivided attention so I can help you as much as possible.

Thanks for giving me the chance to exorcise... i mean exercise... my mind.

~Devon

[DannoE]

Well, like I said, thanks again. If you're curious, I updated the version of the script on the server. I also changed the page number things.

Folks do have a tendency to explain when they get crits, but real criticism is valuable. A lot of would-be writers never actually write anything. Once you get over that, then you realize that no one wants to READ anything, and that becomes even more frustrating. And then, once you get past that, you realize that, oh crap! I really do need help with this stuff. And that's when good criticism becomes the most valuable thing in your life. LOL. But it's true.

There's a big difference between writing that's good and writing that's just better than average. I know that I write better than average, but that really doesn't amount to much. I want my writing to be GOOD. That takes time and effort, and it takes criticism and work with other writers and editors who can explain why they think something does or doesn't work.

So thanks again. I look forward to the rest of your crits.

[doe138]

I'm liking what I've read so far, but just from a practical standpoint of fighting, wouldn't something more strike and run oriented than judo be better served for the girl? She does a cool judo throw (ipponezi-style, I believe), but the danger with this throw is that someone's mouth is open to attack you (which would be an issue with zombies).

Maybe I just think about zombies too much.

Otherwise, liking what I've read so far.

[DannoE]

I'm liking what I've read so far, but just from a practical standpoint of fighting, wouldn't something more strike and run oriented than judo be better served for the girl? She does a cool judo throw (ipponezi-style, I believe), but the danger with this throw is that someone's mouth is open to attack you (which would be an issue with zombies).

Maybe I just think about zombies too much.

Otherwise, liking what I've read so far.
Thanks, man. I couldn't tell you the style of judo here. I took a self-defense class and work specific things into scripts sometimes, but I'm no martial arts expert by any stretch.

You bring up a good point, but we're talking about storytelling more than reality, and I had to get her INTO a jam from which she had very few options. That throw gets us out of the jam in way that's fun without lessening the sense of desperation. I don't know what else to say about it, besides that if she were to just kick and punch her way clear, I think it would imply that she was never in any REAL danger, and that's not really what we want. We want a desperation move here IMO.

Thanks for reading. Anything else strike you false?

[Peedee]

I thought it was particularly interesting that the Zombies responded in a human fashion to the pain of, for example, being kicked. I thought that was interesting, and I was a bit up in the air about whether or not I thought it made sense. Then again, they're your Zombies, so they can happily do whatever you like.

I'm mostly just curious, if you're planning to have Zombies as a major part of your story, then have you worked out their behavior entirely? They feel and react to pain, so do they also take steps to avoid pain? Clearly, we see from the dialogue that they are led to attack out of hunger. Starvation? Desperation? Are they even true Zombies?

I don't know. That's what jumped out at me. Otherwise, I'm quite enjoying your story so far, and I would happily read it as a comic book, or simply in script form. Your descriptions for the artist are succint, and they had me looking unhappily at my own descriptions, which are detailed things...I was glad someone suggested you expand yours, 'cause it means that I don't have to trim mine. Selfish, yes. :)

[doe138]

I agree with you, I'm just always looking at fighting as how I would react in a fight. Maybe a leg sweep, which would take out the zombie and have a big fall to draw. It didn't really strike me as false, no worries there.

I liked what I read, though. Feel free to rip my stuff apart, man.

[Peedee]

If I looked at fights based on how I would react, we would have the world's dullest comics.

ZOMBIE: RAR!

PETE pees self. Also, faints.

:)

Actually, what came to mind when I was reading it, was a Buffy fight scene. Or perhaps a Serenity River Tam fight scene. I guess a Joss Whedon fight scene. :) Because Carrie just struck me as more of that sort of hero than a real-life-girl-stands-up-to-zombies sort of hero. Y'know?

[DannoE]

Thanks guys.

This story was meant to be more fun than some of the other stuff I've written lately. Some of stuff has lain unproduced whereas the fun stuff gets produced, so I'm trying to go with the flow a bit at this point.

Anyway, I like Buffy as much as the next guy and probably more than most, but I hope that this character is distinct from that. Whereas Buffy is a sort of social outsider, Carrie is the ultimate social insider, and hopefully I'll succeed in getting her personality and her actions to reflect that. I had in mind a sort of Danger Girl post-apocalypse, knowing that I couldn't write something as footloose and fancy-free and DG if I tried. But trying was fun.


The true nature of the zombies is a bit of a reveal, so maybe knowing that will inspire you to read all the way into the second issue's draft. LOL.

I liked what I read, though. Feel free to rip my stuff apart, man.
I'll try. I haven't been crit'ing as much as I would like to, and I know that needs to change. Please feel free to remind me by Friday if I forget.

[Peedee]

Anyway, I like Buffy as much as the next guy and probably more than most, but I hope that this character is distinct from that. Whereas Buffy is a sort of social outsider, Carrie is the ultimate social insider, and hopefully I'll succeed in getting her personality and her actions to reflect that. I had in mind a sort of Danger Girl post-apocalypse, knowing that I couldn't write something as footloose and fancy-free and DG if I tried. But trying was fun.

Danger Girl. Hah. Awesome. :D

I wasn't actually comparing her to Buffy, because she doesn't seem anything at all like Buffy. I meant more just the particulars of the fight scene. The motions, the combative moves. Nothing beyond that. :)

[daweir]

I haven't forgotten you, man. Work's been busier than I thought, so haven't had much reading time.

I WILL finish this.

:-D

[DannoE]

I haven't forgotten you, man. Work's been busier than I thought, so haven't had much reading time.

I WILL finish this.

:-D
No worries. Thanks man.

[daweir]

Alrighty then!

I went back and revisited the script. Pretty much, the only comments I had after reading it the second time were the same ones as before.

However, I have to say I LOVE the moment where Carrie is tucking in her shirt. The whole "awkward moment" is a huge draw to me.

Love it.

I also thought some on your "management technique" versus "writing technique." I still shy away from leaving too much open for negotiation in the script, but allowing the artist to feel free to discuss it off the written page. Something about having it in writing makes it almost contractual that the artist can change things. I'd rather have it be an unofficial sort of thing. But that's just me.

So I guess my big question is: When do we see this in print?

Cheers!

[DannoE]

Thanks man. I'm just finishing up Issue 2 this week. After that, I'm going to spend some time re-writing this and getting it hammered into shape. A few continuity issues have come up in the drafting, and I made a few little changes, so now I need to go through and get some consistency, etc. And then it'll be on to the Submissions Package production, and then we'll see.

Thanks again.

[daweir]

I can't wait! I really like the concept behind this, and after reading your bit about the theme of the story and how it came to you, I want to see it succeed even more.

You've got a lot of talent and some real creative charge.

Let me know when it's time to start promoting it. I'll spread the word.