Wonder Woman vs Thor fight pgs 5 of 5

[JAM_ONIT]

stills needs tweaking, but here is the grand finale, It's HAMMERTIME!
but first let's recap all the action
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/Wonder%20Woman/WWvsThor1.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/Wonder%20Woman/WWvsThor2.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/Wonder%20Woman/a99c40bf.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/Wonder%20Woman/77ed92c2.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/Wonder%20Woman/1f88b652.jpg

[sevans]

I would find these extremely difficult to ink!

Are you inking them yourself?

Plus, IMO I think that there are too many speedlines, explosions etc. You haven't established a background in a single panel.

[Jason Arthur]

stiff.

Also too many lines, just way too many.

Good choice of angles for the most part, but you have that static shot of WW toward the end that's from the ankle up that looks odd.

-- J

[ShanE]

Good motion sketches. But unless your inking these yourself, clean it up.
Even if I were inking these myself, I would have it a bit more under control with the boundries and watch the tangents.

[JAM_ONIT]

Well they are only 80-90% done by my standards, and the lack of backround is because I haven't decided exactly where they are at, if it's someplace special or not, there's plenty of time to fill in that later. I've only worked on about 65 pages of my JLA vs Avengers book, and still have around a 100 more or so to go, so I plan to go through it once and then come back with a fresh and detached perspective to fix/retouch things(like WW eye on pg 5;was too lazy to go find one to look at) the other pages are at
http://www.public.asu.edu/~jcjam/jla%20vs.avengers.htm

Since I have always worked alone and most likely will in the future, I know where my lines are and can find them if inks are to be done, which I usually avoid do to time restraints. I do heavy pencils and then go straight to color now, and let photoshop take over.

Stiffness, well it's been difficult going from a cover/poster artist to sequestials, no doubt about that.

I'm not gearing up to try to break into the industry like some others, the industry will be just fine without me, I'm just trying to do some projects that I enjoy and think that other comic fans would enjoy seeing as well, which is why most of my projects involve both/multi company characters, because these are rarely seen. Who wouldn't want to see JLA/X-men, or Avengers/Authority books/posters, that have fan input in them, the fans have helped script this ww/thor fight as well as other from the book. I can make dream projects a reality and have them done at very decent level of art, which shall improve as more pages get done.

I do appreciate the comments, because whether I agree with them or not, I do take them into account for future reference.

[JAM_ONIT]

If I did let someone ink it, it would depend on that individual's ability or talent as to how detailed the pencils are.
Here are some examples of two artist working together(Byrne/Perez, and then of pencils for just an inker(Lee/Williams)

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/S-WWPenciled.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/Superman-WW-Inked.jpg


http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/ASBRSE_01_Oroboros_021.jpg

Don't fall into the trap of ever thinking something is "undoable" or in this case "uninkable"(not that I'm saying you are), just in general.

"Impossible is Nothing"

[Jason Arthur]

well...yeah, it CAN be inked, but we're just saying that it'd be rough going.

Don't take criticism too harshly and don't take it lightly either, we're here to help you get better, not to give you a hard time.

cheers,

-- J

[Phatman]

After looking at several of your pages, I think you'd benefit from using a non-repro blue pencil for your looser under drawing and later refining with harder lead pencil. Give it a try.

[JAM_ONIT]

non repro blue pencil hmm....
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/batvscap/92ea5b78.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/batvscap/21f5973e.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/batvscap/bbfb8376.jpg
nope never heard of it, LOL
been there done that but haven't given up on the idea of it.

[Phatman]

If you took those retro blue pages, defined the best contours with your pencil, and cleaned up your line work your pages would be much clearer and ready for inking. You have a lot of energy that is being lost by the appearance of indecision, i.e. the ability to clearly clarify form. This muddies your work, hurts the storytelling and gives it an unprofessional look.

[thecarrierone]

i looked at your color work and find that it too needs some work. again not picking on you at all i just see a lot of places where your flats didnt go all the way to the line. this could be from using the paint bucket tool or making your selections in the line art channel
and going to the flats. either way it looks unpolished. there are plenty of places to bone up on digicolloring on the web even here at the colorist forum.

as for the blue lines- finish it up and get some ink down! ive been staring at ur thor pages for way too long without any progression!
get on with it!
im assuming that u want to be a pro at some point. eventually ull run into the meanest editor in the world. you want to impress them not give them fuel to critique

[thecarrierone]

ok went back and saw that you are not actually in the buisness of breaking into comics ...thats fine but you are an artist nonetheless
and never leave backgrounds as a secondary thought. they are just as importiant as any character you could draw.

[JAM_ONIT]

as stated before,
they are only 80-90% done by my standards

also as stated before

I'm not gearing up to try to break into the industry like some others, the industry will be just fine without me, I'm just trying to do some projects that I enjoy and think that other comic fans would enjoy seeing as well, which is why most of my projects involve both/multi company characters, because these are rarely seen. Who wouldn't want to see JLA/X-men, or Avengers/Authority books/posters, that have fan input in them, the fans have helped script this ww/thor fight as well as other from the book. I can make dream projects a reality and have them done at very decent level of art, which shall improve as more pages get done.

now I'm the first to admit my computer coloring is not as good as my hand coloring, but that will come with practice.

[JAM_ONIT]

I think of myself as a creator, and art is just one of many things that I create. With that said there is no right or wrong way to the creative process one chooses, if I choose to at times to leave the backround for later completion on an already incomplete page, then I'm going to draw what I already have in mind and not hold up the whole creative process waiting until I come up with an exact location setting. You create your way, I create my way, and others create their way. In this case with them being on some type of dirt terrain, i don't think that the backround is as important and is secondary to the action, my viewpoint to art is that things are subjective: subjective to the situation, subjective to the creator, subjective to the viewer.

If the final product, which I have not presented you with, backrounds looked like that, then it would be difficult for me to explain myself, but this makes it rather simple to see, at least I hope it does, because I'm not as concerned with how someone else gets their final product as much as the final product, although I sure there are some interesting things that can be found out in the process. *SPORTS ANALOGY WARNING* You think I care about how hard the Steelers had to train and practice every week to get to the Super Bowl? Hell no! They got there and they won, hell yeah!

Let me tell you a quick story of how my art professors used to try and tell everyone that they needed to go out and buy these expensive sable paint brushes in order to make better quality paintings with a more professional look. Well with the next project I purposely tossed my brushes aside, ripped of a 3x5 piece of cardboard, cut 3 ridges in it, and went to the next studio room over to work out of sight, and created this painting of Lon Chaney
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/c0b93e5e.jpg
When the time came for the critique session, you should have heard the praise from the professor, and when I said that there was not one brush stroke on it, no one could believe it, but the few I had let in on my little secret. In the end even the professor had a change of heart on the brushes thing.

Look I 've been at this game for quite some time now, and I may be able to help you realize some things as well. I know what you are looking for in a ready to ink penciled page (here's some pages that I had let Berni Wrightson take a look at and he loved them)

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/Wonder%20Woman/swpg-1.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c106/JAM_ONIT/Wonder%20Woman/swonderw-2.jpg

He thought they were clean, easily inkable, solid, etc, and he's an established industry professional and veteran.

So just because I don't do something, doesn't mean I incapable of doing it, I nearly bust a gut laughing when I hear the comments that my hand is unsure, and my lines are undecisive, thank you grasshopper, but it's more of time constraints than anything.

[Phatman]

When you put your work up for critique don't make excuses, quote Bernie Wrightson, and give us all long diatribes about art school. You showed some pages and people offered you their opinion of the work. Many people have offered you advice based on the work. Accept the criticism, put your ego aside, and get back to work. If you can't handle or don't want any analysis of your art, don't post anything. This isn't a place to have your ego stroked and fish for compliments. Good luck.

[sevans]

Exactly what Phatman said.

You'll not learn anything, if you make excuses AND if you think your artwork is already fantastic you'll never improve.

[JAM_ONIT]

as stated before, if you bother to read prevoius posts

I do appreciate the comments, because whether I agree with them or not, I do take them into account for future reference.

and when I disagree with something, I give an explanation of why I disagree, not an excuse, know the difference.

Yes, I think my art is fantastic, with room for improvement, but I think you all should think your art is fantastic as well.

don't want or take analysis, let's see...
"stiff"
Stiffness, well it's been difficult going from a cover/poster artist to sequestials, no doubt about that.

"i looked at your color work and find that it too needs some work"
now I'm the first to admit my computer coloring is not as good as my hand coloring, but that will come with practice

"Two things that get me tho. Your third panel.
Thor's legs look a little out of porportion. Too short. That's just me tho. The second thing is the direction of flow for his cape. If in fact, WW is reflecting that beam back to Thor, his cape should be moving the opposite way. Enveloping him, not flying backwards. I mean, that's gotta be a lotta power coming back at him. It'd probably move him a few feet, don't you think?"

Yes as I have stated before sequential proportion and perspective can be very very tricky to nail down every time, that's why I may argue anatomy, but will be more lenient on "proportion" comments, knowing that some of the angles I pursue may not come across as well as I would have hoped. I'm also changing the cape angle to see what it looks like.

What, I actually took someone's advice from here and used it, will miracles never cease. I take in all the comments, so no i won't stop posting, and no I'm not here to get my ego stroked, but I will explain myself where I feel the need to. If you don't like my explanation or the fact that I give one, too bad, go read someone else's post. If you see my post, just avoid it like the plague.

I quoted Bernie just to show that when I call a page finished, it has stood up to professional critiquing, and that I am fully capable of doing the type of completed penciled lined pages that they and you are looking for.

[thecarrierone]

i never got why people show their art to proffesional artists.... in my oppinion their oppinion doesnt ussually amount to much. editiors are much more helpfull and usefull

[sevans]

I won't avoid your posts because we don't see eye to eye, that fact that you reply and fight your case makes it interesting.

i never got why people show their art to proffesional artists.... in my oppinion their oppinion doesnt ussually amount to much. editiors are much more helpfull and usefull Yes I have to agree thecarrierone, the lady I meet from Dark horse (worked with Frank Miller -can't remember her name) was extremely honest and helpful. With a really good eye for weak areas too.

Now back to the main discussion,
Keep posting and I hopefully see some improvement.

[OZ!]

I'm not going to go out of my way to point out mistakes because these aren't really close to finished. I have to post because of the Byrne art you posted. You posted half drawn art by Byrne and said it was inked from there. I call Shananagins bud. Byrne always finishes his stuff, its what him and Perez are known for; great detail and quality. I don't by any means advocate what you are posting. You are looking for crits on a quarter finished picture and when people do comment on your gestures you get deffensive. You want crits that will fit your ego? Post something finished, its obvious you are probably pretty good but these don't show it. Peace.

[JAM_ONIT]

I got those Byrne/Perez pages straight from Tony Lorenze(look him up/email him, he'll reply), the editor/publisher of Pacesetter magazine, and he happens to get his stuff from various sources, including George himself. So you forced me to name drop again, so no complaining out there. If you really think I would docter up a picture just to make a point, then you must be on a serious crack pipe man, and it's obvious why your nick is oz, cause that's the land you live in if you really believe that! If it's not crack, and some hallucenigenic, then maybe you should share it with the rest of us.

None of the pages from the book will be "finished" until there has been a once through of the whole book at an 80-90% completion ratio, then I will go back and tackle them with a detached perspective having been away from them for a while, this makes it easier to catch/change things. So I guess you will have to suffer at looking at them as is, and I my wittle bitty ego will have to suffer through the comments.

[OZ!]

Not on drugs and I don't care about the name dropping. One thing though, when I initially read what you wrote I was assuming you meat that Byrne had handed over his art as was for inking not a compilation peice so I apologize.

[Matango]

Man, just don't ask me to ink those!
What do you use to draw? Eletric teeth brush?

The pages are cool we can sense the style, Perez 80's alike but its just too dirt.
If some can really ink this he/she should be credited for the entire art.

[rummblestrips]

Phantam is completely right. When I've done critiques of at conventions, the MOMENT someone starts apologizing or making excuses for their work, I cut the critique short.
Jam, you really need to put your ego aside if you're asking for critiques. There's nothing worst than an artist or writer with an ego.
I've read all your posts and you seem to be very closed minded and insecure about your work.
May I kindly suggest that you take a step back from the boards for a week or so, then come back and read your own posts. I think you're going to be really embarassed about how you've portrayed yourself here.

Friendly advice.

[JAM_ONIT]

Phantam is completely right. When I've done critiques of at conventions, the MOMENT someone starts apologizing or making excuses for their work, I cut the critique short.
Jam, you really need to put your ego aside if you're asking for critiques. There's nothing worst than an artist or writer with an ego.
I've read all your posts and you seem to be very closed minded and insecure about your work.
May I kindly suggest that you take a step back from the boards for a week or so, then come back and read your own posts. I think you're going to be really embarassed about how you've portrayed yourself here.

Friendly advice.
Oh snap, I now officially own this board, I got folks digging up posts from over 6 months ago. Who's y'all daddy!

"Come son of Jor-el, come and kneel before JAM_ONIT"

I didn't come to this site asking for critiques, I came to let people know about this project I was working on and if they wanted to input any ideas, now my very first post was moved by a mod that told me it should go here, I never heard of the pimp your stuff section before this week.

I've taken months away from this site, and continue to stand by my comments. I wouldn't make them if I thought I couldn't handle the tone of them in future.

I've had posts here with no responses, which is fine with me, because people are still viewing it and are aware of the updates.