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View Full Version : I'm old and think mainstream Comicbooks stink


paul brian deberry
01-12-2017, 02:34 PM
So,.... I read the Poe Dameron trade w art by Phil Noto a while back and my friend just pick up the trade and said... "I can't get through it. It looks like nothing but traced technical drawings and some people all the ships, storm troopers, etc"

Yes this is why I'm finding it tough to read mainstream comics. Or... Maybe I'm just old and miss guys like Erik Larsen, Frank Miller, and Mark Bagley drawing my favorite comics.

Duane Korslund
01-12-2017, 02:44 PM
hehehe, sounds like me when talking about new music. To my old ears it all sounds like regurgitated garbage from the 90's.

As far as comics go, I can barely read Marvel...I do read some DC titles, just because...well...they keep a more cohesive universe and story line that Marvel nowadays. But my mainstream tastes are very limited.

paul brian deberry
01-12-2017, 06:16 PM
^this on both counts.

Honestly that doesn't bother me as much the art.

Selkirk
01-12-2017, 09:39 PM
yah gotta agree man.. so much of it today just looks traced. there are still top notch pros working (coipel/pepe larraz/pichelli) tho.

sevans
01-12-2017, 10:36 PM
It's just the trends in comic book art I think, when one style is loved and everyone mimics it....boring.

Plus, a lot of the new guys are great draftsman, but lack any individual style.
There is always a few good ones around.

Selkirk
01-12-2017, 10:44 PM
yeah i think this is true..i imagine there are about the same number of 'top tier' artists working each generation (i can name 7 i really really like pretty easy). maybe the drop off is at the middle and lower tiers.

and agree there is a house style that is emerging..but as noted could just be a phase.

dmh_3000
01-13-2017, 02:28 AM
I'm actually finding myself buying more older comics. By which I mean 90s and 00s. I'm really glad they're reprinting Chuck Dixon's Nightwing, Robin and Birds of Prey runs because those stories are still entertaining as hell. And the main reason is because he was allowed to build the world around the characters and go at his own pace.

Also, there has always been kind of a 'house style' in each generation of comics, at least to me. It's more that certain styles of artwork were favoured. You had to have that big, beefy, crow quill inked, overly rendered style back in the day. But not every comic had that artwork, just a lot did, so it's referred to as the "90s style" of art.

Stewart Vernon
01-13-2017, 03:44 AM
I like when there are different styles in play. Sometimes I like more detailed work, other times I like more cartoon looking. Depends on my mood and the type of story being told.

I think it's fine to have a favorite style and to not like some of what is out there. On the plus side, if you truly don't like it, you get to save money by not buying it. It's more enjoyable BUT definitely more expensive the more stuff you like! :)

JRXTIN
01-13-2017, 08:56 PM
So,.... I read the Poe Dameron trade w art by Phil Noto a while back and my friend just pick up the trade and said... "I can't get through it. It looks like nothing but traced technical drawings and some people all the ships, storm troopers, etc"


I looked it up and, yeah, there's basically nothing going on with the lines, and the colors aren't anything special either.

I liked Cam Kennedy's Star Wars books, but usually Star Wars comics are pretty bad. I wonder why they don't get better artists than the superhero books, or at least artists who are as good as the SH books get?

Selkirk
01-13-2017, 10:10 PM
i think part of it is with the mass market (non comic readers) the art just frankly doesn't matter. on batman you have to have a good artist(or at least a promising one).

on han solo or poe dameron these comics are being bought to some degree by star wars fans who might not buy other comics. i think there is a certain calculus with lost sales due to mediocre art and the companies are wiling to roll with it (they have found they don't lose that much and over time people sort of forget what high level art is).

and of course a lot of good artists are doing movies/games/animation etc .. now.

dmh_3000
01-13-2017, 11:55 PM
Speed is also a factor. Disney is trying to build a brand new universe to match the old one as fast as possible so it's likely the creative teams on those books are getting a lot of pressure to get the books done as quick as possible. As such, they'd have to cut corners.

sevans
01-14-2017, 01:15 AM
Cam Kennedy had a great way of dealing with shadows and effects.

aaimiller
01-14-2017, 01:50 PM
Chris Eliopoulos should be drawing the comics as well as writing them.
https://biffbampop.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/apo7.jpg?w=519

paradoxuniverses
01-15-2017, 03:16 PM
I fill the same way about comic's today but I think it's just because I'm getting older, also some of the mainstream Big comic companies like Marvel are running out of ideas how many spidermen do you need? for one spiderman book

JRXTIN
01-15-2017, 09:32 PM
I fill the same way about comic's today but I think it's just because I'm getting older, also some of the mainstream Big comic companies like Marvel are running out of ideas how many spidermen do you need? for one spiderman book


EXACTLY!!

Imagine what shape the prose book industry would be in if the only books you could get were Sherlock Holmes issue 5000 and or the Superior Sherlock Holmes reboot.

Cloves Rodrigues
01-15-2017, 10:52 PM
i like this period

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1b/20/0a/1b200a2299f9f59aaaecdacee756886f.jpg

aaimiller
01-15-2017, 11:23 PM
Imagine what shape the prose book industry would be in if the only books you could get were Sherlock Holmes issue 5000 and or the Superior Sherlock Holmes reboot.

To be fair, a lot of popular fiction has absolutely awful craftsmanship and rehashes old concepts in a very simplified way:

-The Hunger Games
-50 Shades of Grey (started as Twilight fanfic)
-Twilight

dmh_3000
01-16-2017, 02:26 AM
Reboots do put me off a lot, it's usually just a gimmick for some quick bucks because companies know that issue 1 sells high compared to others. Also, when this happens, even if the same writer is on the new #1, they have to rush an ending to the story they've been setting up so that they can end it before the volume ends and then start fresh with the new numbering.

I've always wondered how much notice creators get. I remember years ago, when Siege was coming out, I was reading a topic on Bendis' forum about how all the Avengers books were being cancelled and renumbered according to an article that was quoting Quesada. Bendis replied, saying this was news to him. And honestly, after reading how he ended the Avengers titles he was writing, I don't think he was kidding, they did feel rushed. Also, I forget if this happened or not, but wasn't there a panel at a con where they talked about Captain Marvel being cancelled and that was the first time Kelly Sue Deconnick had heard of it?

Scribbly
01-17-2017, 02:30 PM
Yeah, is aging.
Also, the suspended disbelief. When the suspended disbelief is gone, is gone. Time for start looking around for new chances of amusement related with comics. Maybe on different markets or publishing styles .Maybe by creating our own stuff.
As far I know, mainstream comics did always suck, but with some little exceptions. These exceptions would become the big masterpieces that by now everybody praise. The rest of it is and was always garbage and filling up.
I found out a couple of interesting stories recently. Not superheroes, but mainstream. We never know.

sevans
01-17-2017, 05:26 PM
Most mainstream comics are generic/safe
Most mainstream movies are generic/safe
Most mainstream music is generic/safe

It's the few great (or terrible) ones that people remember.
For example, To me ED WOOD is not the worlds worst movie director, because his movies actually entertain me. Which is their purpose.

A comic that you can read and then forget about 5mins later, is unfortunately (IMO) what most of them are now. If your sick of todays comics, don't read the major publishers, try some new stuff. Good books are hidden out there. I have been raiding my local library as they have a large comics/graphic novels section...there is still some great stuff coming out.

AndrewHuerta
01-17-2017, 11:31 PM
I feel the same way. Everything seems to have been watered down and PC for the new SJW comic readers.

Not trying to promote my own comic/kickstarter here, but this is basically one of the biggest reasons why I decided to do a Kickstarter for my new graphic novel. My whole goal is to bring back the feeling from the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s, that we used to get when reading comics. Crazy art, crazy characters, crazy ideas and stories and more.

Itís definitely weird time for comics right now. Many shops are closing, us older readers donít read as much anymore and thereís not enough new readers to make the industry strong and healthy. I donít know...

maverick
01-18-2017, 12:10 PM
So,.... I read the Poe Dameron trade w art by Phil Noto a while back and my friend just pick up the trade and said... "I can't get through it. It looks like nothing but traced technical drawings and some people all the ships, storm troopers, etc"


And these are the types of pages that now take artists several fucking days to draw! Sickening!

JRXTIN
01-19-2017, 05:39 AM
To be fair, a lot of popular fiction has absolutely awful craftsmanship and rehashes old concepts in a very simplified way:

-The Hunger Games
-50 Shades of Grey (started as Twilight fanfic)
-Twilight

As long as the publisher doesn't own the I.P., these titles will eventually leave the stand and be replaced by new titles. The replacements won't necessarily be better, but when the year 2100 rolls around we won't be seeing the future crop of writers trying to update Bella for the 22nd century audience. In comics we're stuck with super heros that had a degree of plausibility in the 1940s but strain credulity today. How is Batman not leaving Bruce Wayne's DNA at every crime scene he investigates? They can write a bat device for that but I don't believe there's a bat device for that.

Sevans - Ed Wood is hilarious!

AndrewHuerta - Hasn't the readership for the SJW comics tanked really hard? That's what I heard, but I don't watch the numbers myself.

maverick - Not me! I've been doing a page and a half a day. I don't get much else done at that rate, but I can do it.

Scribbly
01-19-2017, 12:11 PM
And these are the types of pages that now take artists several fucking days to draw! Sickening!
Well, I will like to have "you" drawing pages for any of these scripts and see how many days it takes to "you" get the job done.

Phil Noto's Poe Dameron is a quite decent job for this serial. The artist's style lack some expression on faces. IMHO.Eyes and mouths. Everybody's is looking as their are guessing, mouth slightly open. Rather than that good. Not easy to work characters portraits on every panel, plus forced to use tons of reference per page. And plus work expressions without losing characters likeness. On top of that, having all done on proper deadline.
I really admire what Phil Noto does and I wish to be as good as he is as artist.
And to have a tenth of the professional merits he has.

maverick
01-19-2017, 04:51 PM
Well, I will like to have "you" drawing pages for any of these scripts and see how many days it takes to "you" get the job done.


What's your point here?

Scribbly
01-19-2017, 07:34 PM
What's your point here?
Sorry. Maybe you didn't read your comment in your former post. If is so sickening for you that artists need that much time and many days to get pages done. More than less, pages in the level of exigency Phil Noto works, maybe you should give it a try at drawing pages by yourself and see how it goes. Or at least, have a little bit of respect for those artists. Get the point?

JRXTIN
01-20-2017, 12:55 AM
Well, I will like to have "you" drawing pages for any of these scripts and see how many days it takes to "you" get the job done.

I can do it and I'd be embarrassed to spend more than one day on a page like this -

http://www.starwarspost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2.jpg

A half day is a good timeframe for that level of work.

Scribbly
01-20-2017, 06:48 PM
I can do it and I'd be embarrassed to spend more than one day on a page like this -

A half day is a good timeframe for that level of work.
Hey, these are good news! Would we be able to se your samplers for Poe Dameron any soon? Don't know, but guess you'll be making better money there than working XTIN . LOL.

The Spirit
01-21-2017, 10:25 AM
I rarely pick up anything new. I like Mike Allred, Bruce Timm, and I loved Darwyn Cooke artwise but I haven't enjoyed the stories from Marvel or DC in a long time. I mostly find old comics and reprints that I haven't read. I am very particular anyway. I really focus on silver age stuff alot so I'm really biased. But I hate what Marvel and DC have done to their characters. Old Logan and Cap. Weird stuff like that I see on the net and I don't want to pick it up.

ayalpinkus
01-21-2017, 01:14 PM
I can do it and I'd be embarrassed to spend more than one day on a page like this -

http://www.starwarspost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2.jpg

A half day is a good timeframe for that level of work.



Jeremy, I kind of like that page! I think it's well done.

The page has clarity. First panel, the warm-colored dark ship pops against the lighter cooler background. Each panel, the the main thing the viewer is supposed to look at is subtly highlighted like a vignette.

The page guides the eye pretty well along a Z line, from the ship top-left, pointing to the right, balloons, a face, SKREE! SFX, a ship, then down to the left bottom panel:balloon, face, et cetera.

I think adding any detail would actually detract from this page. The draftsmanship on the face is good, the coloring is nice and balanced and not too saturated, using a limited palette of brownish red and pale brown and some matching yellow and orange and cyan.

I think the page works... If an artist can do a page like that in a half day (and I don't think an artist actually can, there must have been several thumbnail passes to get this composition in the first place, then breakdowns, roughs, inks, coloring, lettering), then that's actually fine.

More detail, more time spent on a page, does not equal more quality.

ayalpinkus
01-21-2017, 01:19 PM
And these are the types of pages that now take artists several fucking days to draw! Sickening!

Spending a lot of time on one page is a necessary but not sufficient condition for producing quality.

It is necessary: you need a lot of time to try out many different compositions through sketches, to arrive at the right design that supports the telling of the story, the pacing, the feel it has, et cetera. Then you need to spend time gathering reference, doing breakdowns, layouts, inking, coloring, lettering.

But it is not sufficient: if you don't know your anatomy, if you do not know your perspective, if your draftsmanship leaves a lot to be desired, if you don't know about visual storytelling, then the result will not be very good even if you do spend a lot of time on it.

Forcing an artist to spend little time on a page just leaves you with unsellable pages, unsellable comics, unimpressed publishers, time wasted.

Stewart Vernon
01-22-2017, 10:33 PM
I think there are sometimes levels that aren't being considered here too...

It takes an amount of time to draw a particular page a certain way. You can get better at it, and get faster at some aspects of it... but certain levels of detail or quality are going to take some amount of time to produce.

But that's the last stage... it assumes you've read the script, thought about it, planned it, and know what you want to lay down. That stuff takes time too.

When an artist takes 1-2 days or more to complete a page, there's more than just the literal lines on the page... there's lots of mental processing that goes on before you put pen (digital or otherwise) to paper... and there are sketches and stuff you experiment with... character designs, angles, panel layouts... before you're actually doing the work that everyone thinks is the only thing you do.

You can't short-change the time that part of the process takes either.

maverick
01-23-2017, 04:17 PM
let's be clear - I also enjoy fully-realized, epic sequential art inside my comics

I also believe in fair pay for an artist's time/work

either way you slice it, it's the reason why comics cost $4 these days

are we getting less for more, or more for less?

can't have it both ways, people.

aaimiller
01-24-2017, 07:48 PM
But that's the last stage... it assumes you've read the script, thought about it, planned it, and know what you want to lay down. That stuff takes time too.



Indeed, and with a title like Star Wars I imagine there is a lot of editorial micromanaging. Scripts, layouts, pencils each need to be approved by one or more editors before moving forward to the next stage.

Scribbly
01-24-2017, 08:09 PM
Indeed, and with a title like Star Wars I imagine there is a lot of editorial micromanaging. Scripts, layouts, pencils each need to be approved by one or more editors before moving forward to the next stage.
That is true. There are lot of people working behind licensing material that are in need of justify them salaries. Calling for last minute adjustments and details for making the artist's life easy. Of course, none of these adjustments would require an extra pay to artists. Adjustments are included in the page rate.

dmh_3000
01-25-2017, 06:23 AM
Indeed, and with a title like Star Wars I imagine there is a lot of editorial micromanaging. Scripts, layouts, pencils each need to be approved by one or more editors before moving forward to the next stage.

Especially these days. Lucas originally didn't care what other creators did with the universe and lore, as long as they kept in within certain time frames that he wanted to do something with eventually, until he sold the franchise. A lot of what you hear from the Marvel people quitting the movies is because of creative control.

Though speaking of layouts, a question to artists, do you personally like it when layouts are done for you? I've worked with artists who both liked and disliked layouts being provided. The ones who preferred it liked the way it saved time, as they didn't have to worry about how the page should be framed or established, they just focused on making it look good. Others liked to have control over the page layout so they could decide how the page flowed and tailor the script to their own personal style.

JRXTIN
01-27-2017, 10:20 PM
Hey, these are good news! Would we be able to se your samplers for Poe Dameron any soon? Don't know, but guess you'll be making better money there than working XTIN . LOL.

Be patient and you'll eventually get to see the comics I'm being paid to work on. It isn't Star Wars yet but I'm working with someone who's been in the industry a couple decades and had/has a moderately well known indy title.

JRXTIN
01-27-2017, 10:35 PM
I think adding any detail would actually detract from this page.

If you saw the same page done well I doubt you'd agree with yourself.

I'm not saying everything about it is straight-up bad. It reads fine. I'll also agree with everyone that there could be production reasons that are making it take longer than it would if Phil Noto could get on with his business.

My big objection is that the linework is not interesting, there's really nothing going on there. I looked through Phil Noto's website and didn't see anything with intricate line work. I've noticed many artists who dabble in coloring don't develop their lines. Sometimes I think the switch from cut and gradient coloring to painted colors has not been good for comics. I barely follow comics these days but what I have seen doesn't have the dynamism of the old cut and gradient comics (done by a star team).

JRXTIN
01-27-2017, 11:33 PM
Don't know, but guess you'll be making better money there than working XTIN . LOL.

If Poe Dameron is a work-for-hire job than it's entirely possible I'll make more with XTIN although I won't put a date on when it will happen.

Scribbly
01-28-2017, 11:24 AM
If Poe Dameron is a work-for-hire job than it's entirely possible I'll make more with XTIN although I won't put a date on when it will happen.
Oh, you were just bragging. I see.

dmh_3000
02-03-2017, 08:55 PM
Getting back to talking about more 'referential' styles, I think some artists do it well and others don't. For example, I still love Tim Bradstreet's cover work. And while it could get very stiff in some places, I thought Alex Maleev's work on Spider-Woman was pretty good (The print comic, could never get into motion comics).

paul brian deberry
02-03-2017, 09:07 PM
I'm a big pass on both those guys. Tremendous talent. Just not a fan of that photo realistic stuff.

Selkirk
02-07-2017, 12:07 PM
yeah, gotta agree the photo realists and the noir people just aren't floating my boat. we need return of the great figure drawers! (they do exist of course but most aren't on monthly books :sob: ).

artsnake
02-07-2017, 01:57 PM
I think there is something to having the art as efficient as possible. I feel a lot of time the artist could have put more time into the story and not so much time polishing the image. If the action is clear and the acting is good I don't care if it is a little rough.
I also think it has always been that most of the comics suck. It is like that for music and movies also. We just remember the good ones.