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View Full Version : What is a comic artist average page pay rates?


paradoxuniverses
12-20-2016, 02:21 PM
I got paid $1200 for a 32 page book, I'm just about done with it. it took me about 4 months because I work almost 40 hr a week, and I also have 3 kids that take up a lot of my time..lol but they want me to do another book this time 42 pages, I feel kind of burned out, I am new to the business side of comics, so what is a good average page pay rate for comics?

Steven Forbes
12-20-2016, 05:29 PM
Minefield.

Keep it civil.

Thanks in advance.

-Steven

Bishop
12-20-2016, 05:33 PM
It depends on how much you value your time. If you break it down to getting paid about $30-40/page and you feel that is worth the effort and time you put into it, then go for it. If you feel you are burning out and losing time with your kids and are resenting the page rate you are offered, then back out for a while.

I've been in this situation before where I really didn't have time or want to do any freelance work, so I put my price at a rate that I couldn't say no to (nearly double what I would usually charge). Someone actually came along and offered to pay me that rate, and I did it, but the money made it worth it.

Scribbly
12-21-2016, 02:54 AM
I suppose they were asking you to do more work for the same price. But even if they pay you $120 or $250 per page, with your life's schedule it would be hard to catch up.
32 pages in 4 months is 8 pages per month, 2 pages per week. No bad at all.
Therefore, 42 pages will be 6 months of work. Working at night, sleeping almost 4 hours per day.
This is up to you and your goals. If you think you can make it, go for it. Maybe with your experience working on these 32 pages you already did learn how to deal with family issues and work day demands.

Eliseu Gouveia
12-21-2016, 03:22 AM
Do the math, how many hours do you spend per page?
8-12 hours? Let's say 10.

USD$1200 for 32 pages equals USD$37,50 per page.

USD$37,50 divided by ten hours means USD$3,57 an hour.
That's below poverty levels wages, man, you're selling yourself short.

I charge USD$80/page but I can afford that out here in beach country.

You have 3 kids to feed, beef up those figures a bit.

Morganza
12-21-2016, 11:16 AM
Charge what it is worth to you to do the work.

Stewart Vernon
12-21-2016, 11:27 AM
Lots of variables, as everyone is saying... You have to balance work & life, figure out how much your time (especially your drawing time) is worth to you, and factor in how much time you spend on each page. IF this is extra money beyond your day job and you enjoy the work and you have the time to do it... you might be willing to work for less than IF you need money to make your bills and have to budget time carefully.

maverick
12-21-2016, 06:07 PM
Doubtful you are spending 10 hours on one fucking page, unless your name is David Finch.

Scribbly
12-22-2016, 03:07 AM
Doubtful you are spending 10 hours on one fucking page, unless your name is David Finch.
Ten hours per page equals 2 hours per panel in an average 5 panels page. From scratch sketches to full rendering panel plus... crosshatching.

paradoxuniverses
12-22-2016, 05:52 PM
Thank you all for the good advice, I don't think I'm going to take the next project, I think I'm going to refocus on making my own comics, Thank you all

Morganza
12-22-2016, 06:41 PM
Thank you all for the good advice, I don't think I'm going to take the next project, I think I'm going to refocus on making my own comics, Thank you all

Good call! And good luck!

paul brian deberry
12-26-2016, 10:09 PM
Ten hours per page equals 2 hours per panel in an average 5 panels page. From scratch sketches to full rendering panel plus... crosshatching.

If you're an artist and spending more than an hour or two on a comicbook page you need to speed the fuck up.

I agree 100% with maverick.

Now to address the elephant in the room. If you're working for a publisher, an actual publisher with editors. It can be whatever they offer you. I've heard of places paying as much as 75 a page (they most definitely DO NOT pay by the hour.)

Honestly, the writer pays the bill. Whatever the writer can afford is the correct answer.

Scribbly
12-27-2016, 03:58 AM
If you are an artist working only one or two hours in a page you probably are a garbage's maker or a genius. Unless you are working cartoons or animated characters.
And yes, whoever pays the bill is the ultimate owner and sole proprietor of the work. Regardles how much or how less they pay for it.
The artist's personal circumstance would determine acceptance of the price offered for get the job done.

Stewart Vernon
12-27-2016, 12:43 PM
If you are an artist working only one or two hours in a page you probably are a garbage's maker or a genius. Unless you are working cartoons or animated characters.
And yes, whoever pays the bill is the ultimate owner and sole proprietor of the work. Regardles how much or how less they pay for it.
The artist's personal circumstance would determine acceptance of the price offered for get the job done.

This goes with some of what I've heard... that typically 1-2 pages per day is an expectation from a seasoned pro, depending on level of detail per page of course... and considering that a "day" is likely to be more than 8 hours of work.

Steven Forbes
12-27-2016, 06:17 PM
if you are an artist working only one or two hours in a page you probably are a garbage's maker or a genius. Unless you are working cartoons or animated characters.


qft

paradoxuniverses
12-27-2016, 06:18 PM
If you're an artist and spending more than an hour or two on a comicbook page you need to speed the fuck up.

I agree 100% with maverick.

Now to address the elephant in the room. If you're working for a publisher, an actual publisher with editors. It can be whatever they offer you. I've heard of places paying as much as 75 a page (they most definitely DO NOT pay by the hour.)

Honestly, the writer pays the bill. Whatever the writer can afford is the correct answer.

I don't know any artist that can draw a comic book page in two hours

Kay
12-27-2016, 06:26 PM
He probably meant per panel.

Gawler
12-28-2016, 03:46 AM
Obviously it depends on the content of the page. A single panel that depicts a battle scene with a lot of people can take a few hours work on its own.

Steve Colle
12-28-2016, 01:36 PM
There are some obvious considerations - such as art style (simple vs. complex) and level of detail - that go into price quotes, but also consider what your base starting material is and how much work will go into its interpretation. A script that provides thumbnail concepts or clear enough panel descriptions will require less time dedication than a plot-formatted story a la Marvel style that needs more thought into division of pages/panels and dealing with pacing, character, etc. And another thing to honestly consider is what you consider your worth is as it applies to your own abilities. If you aren't a refined artist, would you start charging the higher rates associated with refined work, looking to your own future as your own style becomes more refined? This applies to any creative role such as writing, photography, and even editing: if your work is that damned good now, then charge what it's worth, but if you know there is room for further development on your part, charge your current worth. In the "outside world", people get paid for their knowledge, experience, etc. That same approach should be applied here.

My two cents.

ayalpinkus
12-28-2016, 05:16 PM
If you're an artist and spending more than an hour or two on a comicbook page you need to speed the fuck up.





Oh how I wish that were true...

Drawing a page (thumbnailing it at least three times, breakdown, pencil layouts/pencils, inks, coloring, lettering) can easily take 15 hours, or two work days, say. US minimum wage is 7,25 USD, so if you're paying less than 108,75 USD per page, you are paying less than minimum wage. For highly skilled labor. Assuming a 40-hour work week, drawing a 22-page comic will take two months of work (penciling, inking, lettering, all the work). There will be bills to pay for the artist, and if you pay less than minimum wage, don't be surprised if the artist has to put your project aside and give precedence to other assignments that pay better. Because bills need to be paid (rent, food, clothing).

But imagine though... if drawing a comic page took only one or two hours... what an amazing world we'd be living in! The stack of comics just one artist could produce each year... At 1-2 hours per page, and assuming a normal 40-hour work week, one artist could draw one or two 22-page issues per week! Or 50-100 issues per year! In a normal 40-hour work week!

I'm afraid that's not possible, but what if though... What if... That'd be sweet!

In 1-2 hours, I can do a rough breakdown of a page in pencil. But the result is not something you'd care to call a comic ;-) ;-)

paul brian deberry
12-28-2016, 07:56 PM
If you are an artist working only one or two hours in a page you probably are a garbage's maker or a genius. Unless you are working cartoons or animated characters.

huh?

This comic short comic was drawn (digitally) within 48 hours. Not garbage and (very close) definitely not a genius,
http://stupendodog.blogspot.com/2016/05/happybirthdayasshole.html

paul brian deberry
12-28-2016, 08:00 PM
This goes with some of what I've heard... that typically 1-2 pages per day is an expectation from a seasoned pro, depending on level of detail per page of course... and considering that a "day" is likely to be more than 8 hours of work.

Not sure we are talking a seasoned pro. A seasoned pro that is being paid upwards of 500 bucks a page can take as long as he wants (within the deadline.)

We are talking an indy/freelance guy that needs to make a living. If you're only capable of drawing 1 or 2 pages a day you'll never make a living.

You want to eat speed sells.

paul brian deberry
12-28-2016, 08:02 PM
qft

what the fuck is "qft?"

(says the guy to old and or lazy to keep up with you crazy kids stupid acronym)

paul brian deberry
12-28-2016, 08:08 PM
I don't know any artist that can draw a comic book page in two hours

I know several and I shared a link to one earlier in the thread.
http://stupendodog.blogspot.com/2016/05/happybirthdayasshole.html

Digitally drew that comic within 48 hours (this does not take into account the time spent writing.)

Webcomic artist are extremely fast.

paul brian deberry
12-28-2016, 08:16 PM
He probably meant per panel.

negative. I meant "If you're an artist and spending more than an hour or two on a comicbook page you need to speed the fuck up."

I am not an artist and I don't speak from experience. I do speak from the POV of a writer/letterer that has seen dozens of freelance comicbook artist fail because they try to be perfect and give up because they cannot make a living.

Why can't they make a living? They can only draw 1 or 2 pages a day.

paul brian deberry
12-28-2016, 08:20 PM
Obviously it depends on the content of the page. A single panel that depicts a battle scene with a lot of people can take a few hours work on its own.

Quoted for Truth.

If you're going to go all George Perez on a page then more time is needed. I would guess that there is no one writing that sorta stuff. Definitely not Marvel or DC

paul brian deberry
12-28-2016, 08:41 PM
Oh how I wish that were true...

Drawing a page (thumbnailing it at least three times, breakdown, pencil layouts/pencils, inks, coloring, lettering) can easily take 15 hours, or two work days, say. US minimum wage is 7,25 USD, so if you're paying less than 108,75 USD per page, you are paying less than minimum wage. For highly skilled labor. Assuming a 40-hour work week, drawing a 22-page comic will take two months of work (penciling, inking, lettering, all the work). There will be bills to pay for the artist, and if you pay less than minimum wage, don't be surprised if the artist has to put your project aside and give precedence to other assignments that pay better. Because bills need to be paid (rent, food, clothing).

But imagine though... if drawing a comic page took only one or two hours... what an amazing world we'd be living in! The stack of comics just one artist could produce each year... At 1-2 hours per page, and assuming a normal 40-hour work week, one artist could draw one or two 22-page issues per week! Or 50-100 issues per year! In a normal 40-hour work week!

I'm afraid that's not possible, but what if though... What if... That'd be sweet!

In 1-2 hours, I can do a rough breakdown of a page in pencil. But the result is not something you'd care to call a comic ;-) ;-)

I love your site and art. I would love to read a stack of your comics. Too bad you're not quicker.

Mark Evanier has said that Jack Kirby could produce 3 pages daily. Frank Miller is believed to be just as quick (obviously that's changed with his age and as he took on writing duties. I wasn't able to find the quote...?)

I worked with a few webcomic artist that can produce a page a day.

If you're a writer and paying an artist by the hour I want to be your friend... you obviously have a lot of money.

paul brian deberry
12-28-2016, 08:42 PM
There are some obvious considerations - such as art style (simple vs. complex) and level of detail - that go into price quotes, but also consider what your base starting material is and how much work will go into its interpretation. A script that provides thumbnail concepts or clear enough panel descriptions will require less time dedication than a plot-formatted story a la Marvel style that needs more thought into division of pages/panels and dealing with pacing, character, etc. And another thing to honestly consider is what you consider your worth is as it applies to your own abilities. If you aren't a refined artist, would you start charging the higher rates associated with refined work, looking to your own future as your own style becomes more refined? This applies to any creative role such as writing, photography, and even editing: if your work is that damned good now, then charge what it's worth, but if you know there is room for further development on your part, charge your current worth. In the "outside world", people get paid for their knowledge, experience, etc. That same approach should be applied here.

My two cents.

This guy gets it and has all the best words.

Scribbly
12-28-2016, 11:47 PM
I love your site and art. I would love to read a stack of your comics. Too bad you're not quicker.

Mark Evanier has said that Jack Kirby could produce 3 pages daily. Frank Miller is believed to be just as quick (obviously that's changed with his age and as he took on writing duties. I wasn't able to find the quote...?)

I worked with a few webcomic artist that can produce a page a day.

If you're a writer and paying an artist by the hour I want to be your friend... you obviously have a lot of money.

1) Well, as far I know, Kirby and Miller are two comics genius. Think I'm kidding?
The prove is in their deeds. Hall of fame.
2) Any artist can make a page a day. 8 to 10 hours of work? For web comics or print.
3) It is not about paying an artist by the hour. If you got that, you got all wrong.

ps: Stupendo dog. A great comic with cartoon style characters.
Your assumption a full comics page, realistic style, is made in two hours equals to assume comics writers are writing 22 comics pages in one afternoon.
Under certain circumstances that may happen but not as rule that can be used as regular reference.

For the record and for having some perspective on the exposed appreciations:
Two hours per page> 4 pages in 8 hours> 24 pages in 6 days> 96 pages per month!
According to this, every artist should be drawing a graphic novel of 96 pages each month! Good luck with that.

JRXTIN
12-29-2016, 01:22 AM
I know several and I shared a link to one earlier in the thread.
http://stupendodog.blogspot.com/2016/05/happybirthdayasshole.html

Digitally drew that comic within 48 hours (this does not take into account the time spent writing.)

Webcomic artist are extremely fast.

It's been a while since I've had a simple toon job, but IIRC I believe I was cranking out twelve pages a day of line art. This is just one panel a page, but the lines were finished lines. Not sketchy choppy stuff.

I didn't get that job because of toon work though, I got it because the writer had seen my high end comic work and liked that.

It's never even occurred to me to pitch such sketchy work as in the Stupendo-Dog link. Usually writers want the best work I can do, and that style can take days for line art or a couple weeks for a painted page.

I'm more than willing to do the sketchy choppy stuff if there are writers who will actually pay for it. An artist has to be flexible. I just haven't seen an interest in it. It's tough for me to believe it exists. If that work is out there, feel free to point me in the direction of it.

What do you think would be a fair rate for a Stupendo-Dog page?

Steve Colle
12-29-2016, 01:58 AM
This guy gets it and has all the best words.

Thanks, Paul.

Eliseu Gouveia
12-29-2016, 02:31 AM
A couple years ago I took the 24 page comics in a day challenge.
Only managed to deliver 22 but finished the story, which I was writing as I was drawing the pages.
Lettering? WHAT lettering.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/550245/gallery/Zeu/air010.jpg

Each of these took me 40-50 minutes to draw and by the end I was dead.
Artistically dead. I slept the whole next day and was wandering around the house like a zombie for weeks.
Couldn't even look at a pencil.

So, can an artist make a page in 2 hours? Sure. Once a year, perhaps.
You want that output on a monthly basis, you might as well be the one to push him out the rooftop.

JRXTIN
12-29-2016, 02:51 AM
You set up perspective and made your story readable. There's your problem.

ayalpinkus
12-29-2016, 10:05 AM
I love your site and art. I would love to read a stack of your comics. Too bad you're not quicker.

Mark Evanier has said that Jack Kirby could produce 3 pages daily. Frank Miller is believed to be just as quick (obviously that's changed with his age and as he took on writing duties. I wasn't able to find the quote...?)




Thank you so much for your kind words!!! Yeah, I wish I worked faster too... Maybe one day.

Osamu Tezuka, a brilliant cartoonist, could draw three pages a day, I read somewhere. The wiki page on him says "His complete oeuvre includes over 700 volumes with more than 150,000 pages." Jaw-dropping. So it isn't entirely impossible to be that productive and produce high quality art at the same time.

The comic your friend drew for your birthday is brilliant!

Eliseu Gouveia
12-29-2016, 12:53 PM
150,000 is an impressive number no matter how you look at it, but bear in mind that Manga artists have assistants who draw backgrounds, ink and all that stuff.

Scribbly
12-29-2016, 02:30 PM
150,000 is an impressive number no matter how you look at it, but bear in mind that Manga artists have assistants who draw backgrounds, ink and all that stuff.
Thanks Eliseu. I was going for it. Exactly.
The Manga system is similar to Animation Studio system.
One lead artist and 10 or more ghost assistants getting the job done under the name of the lead artist creator of the serial.
And this has a simple explanation. They need to make 300 pages every month in order to be published.
Pages with full details and reference. As anyone who read Manga knows.
Also, this is cartoon animated style.
Tezuka is one of these genius behind the creation of this system.
And all the assistants in a Manga Studio are well paid accordingly.

The studio system for comics is very well known in America and many famous comics artists work or had have to
work at some point with assistants. Of course, when their artwork is in hot demand.

JRXTIN
12-29-2016, 04:13 PM
So it isn't entirely impossible to be that productive and produce high quality art at the same time.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4c/15/6b/4c156beea51b13b1e56305ae35470527.jpg

I don't think you could get away with this as a cover in American comics.

Maybe this one -

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDAwWDMwMA==/z/fa8AAOxy2CZTY8xu/$_35.JPG?set_id=89040003C1

Maybe not.

https://d20eq91zdmkqd.cloudfront.net/assets/images/book/large/9780/0072/9780007224531.jpg

Well this one has practice heads. Not very good ones, but . . .

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cc/5f/de/cc5fde4cff86f9c321a8c1c8e0c94887.jpg

O.K., this does tell the story, but there's no background, no dynamic cross hatching, cloth folds are simplistic, anatomy is rudimentary, perspective is eyeballed, detail is minimal.

Yes, you can get the speed and the high page count if you're willing to remove enough art from the art. To me Osamu Tezuka's 150,000 pages aren't the equal of however many thousand Jim Lee has drawn. Osamu Tezuka's compositions are good but I'm not going to call his art "high quality." I file it under "the least you can get away with." I'm not looking at it unless the story is extremely good, like Maus quality good. It was passable for for young children, in its day, before video games happened. Freak events of good fortune aside, I doubt a new artist could break out with this material in the present day.

ayalpinkus
12-29-2016, 06:18 PM
Heh! How did I end up at this side of the table! I spend days and days on a single page :-)

I did enjoy reading Osamu Tezuka's work though. I found Buddha a really entertaining read. Ayako was a great read, sad story. In my opinion, he's a great storyteller. And the art, I will admit, was a bit of an acquired taste, so to speak, but it did grow on me eventually.

JRXTIN
12-29-2016, 09:37 PM
I'm sure Tezuka has a more time consuming art style too, or could do more intricate work if he wanted to. His compositions are fine. I object to the idea that the ultra quickie style art is just as much art as the time consuming style. If my ultra-quickie style was as much art as my intricate style, why would I do the hard stuff? I didn't get into art to draw, I got into it to write, and the intricate art is the only reason anyone looks at my stuff. If it didn't work to some degree, I might as well write prose.

ayalpinkus
12-30-2016, 04:19 AM
Hi jrxtin (Jeremy),
I just checked out your art, it does indeed look stunning!

I agree with you! The more time an artist spends on a page, the better it will be.

About Osamu Tezuka though, and Manga. You have to understand that Manga is big, big, big in Japan. Really, really big. I saw many huge book stores there that carried only Manga. I read somewhere that every fifth printed page is a Manga page. You see Manga characters everywhere on the streets, on every billboard on every building, on television. You see cosplayers in the streets and in public transport on any day.

Manga is huge over there.

And Osamu Tezuka is the king of Manga, he's the most famous, most celebrated Manga creator over there. He's like the father of Manga. He's like the Walt Disney of Japan.

Quoting Wiki:

"His prolific output, pioneering techniques, and innovative redefinitions of genres earned him such titles as "the father of manga", "the godfather of manga" and "the god of manga". Additionally, he is often considered the Japanese equivalent to Walt Disney, who served as a major inspiration during Tezuka's formative years."

I am mentioning this because you wrote you do the detailed art because it is the only way you can get people to look at your work. Osamu Tezuka, with his style, got tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people to look at his work...

Not saying you should now dump your intricately detailed art hehe! Your pages look really good, you clearly know your craft! But perhaps Osamu Tezuka is worth studying as a cultural phenomenon.

Because I think it's more a matter of cultural difference and taste. I'm from the Netherlands, and we don't get your American comics here. Similarly, you don't get our Franco-Belgian albums over there. These albums are really well-drawn, usually highly intricate pages with lots of detail, lots of craft went into it, the French and Belgian artists know their anatomy and perspective and page and panel design. And yet, these Franco-Belgian albums do not sell in the American market. Even though they are crafted with skill and a lot of detail.

So, getting back to the topic of page rate, it is also important to note that a Manga page is about a half the size of a US comic page. Manga come in these small pocket books. So that may be why a prolific Manga artist can do more than one page a day. Twice as much space to draw, twice as much time needed. And Manga is black and white, so no need to color. Similarly, our Franco-Belgian albums have twice the surface area of American comics, so an European artist can maybe draw only 50-100 high quality pages or so each year where an American artist can draw maybe 100-200 high-quality pages each year.

So I agree with you! If an artist rushes a page, it will not look good, and that's all that matters in the end. People forget you created something on a tight deadline and they only see the end result. Your name will be associated with that art. An artist should take the time to create great pages.

And I think your art pages look amazing! Don't change that!

But... you should perhaps not dismiss Osamu Tezuka so easily. I believe he's a great storyteller, and he was wildly successful. His output is possibly worth studying.

I'm sure Japanese Manga artists and Franco-Belgian artists study Jim Lee's work too even though Jim Lee's comics don't sell well in Japan and Europe.

ayalpinkus
12-30-2016, 06:38 AM
Anyway, why am I arguing against this...

Of course you should only study the artists you admire, and of course you should take as much time as you think you need to make each page as good as it needs to be to be released.

People base their opinion on a work of art on how much they like it, not how much time the artist spent creating it.

Scribbly
12-30-2016, 09:34 AM
Manga and Franco-Belgian comics! That's is another good topic!
And is important to point their similarities and differences with American comics!
The main difference between these three is their PRODUCTION SYSTEM.
Unlike American comics, BD, (Bande dessinee, real denomination for Franco-Belgium comics), are paid half upfront or in advance by publisher to creators after submission is approved.
First half before starting the project, second half when project is delivered. More time the artist will take, less money he would make. The deadline is 6 months to get 56 pages done. This is almost 2 full detailed and inked & colored pages per week. The production style is dual. Some artists may work studio style, some artists work individually. Is not about fastness in the execution but artistic quality in the final product. The publishers are producing serial books, 56 to 96 pages. The life spam of any these books in the publisher's catalogs is everlasting.
Books are sold at newsstands and bookstores.

Manga produce serial pocket books.(Manga size) 150 to 300 B/W pages per issue. These books are full paid, upon delivery, for the publisher to creators. And the creators need to work in studio style with many assistants to provide 150 pages every two weeks or 300 pages per month.
Books are sold at newsstands and bookstores.

American comics have dual production system. Mainstream and Indie.
Mainstream: produce monthly magazines. (comics size) 3/4 artwork, 1/4 commercial advertisement. 22 pages artwork, 10 pages commercial advertisement. Artists/writers usually are not the character's creators, they work over in-house characters provided by publisher. The artists payment is upon delivery. Artist work individually but sometimes may adopt studio system of production.
Indie: can produce one-shoot books of 48 to 96 pages or 24 page serials. The artist is the sole creator proprietor of character/serial. Sometimes splitting ownership rights with publisher. The artist is not paid until sales are made, and profits are stablished and deducted by publisher, backend payment.
Books are sold at comics specialty stores.


Just to have some perspective and criteria when comparing these quite different styles of producing sequential artwork.

Lee Nordling
12-30-2016, 10:10 AM
To modify Scribbly's breakdown, his American comics process relates ONLY to the direct market.

Graphic novel publishing for the trade (bookstores) is closer to the European/Franco-Belgian or Manga model.

My current work is the former, with advances up front, and payments at major completed steps along the way (like approval of the script for one, and sales materials, which include sample pages and the cover).

The latter is more like "do the book," find a publisher for it.

Stewart Vernon
12-30-2016, 01:05 PM
I think the key point here is not so much that different artists spend different amounts of time... or that some are more detailed than others... but that earlier up there was a declaration of a sort that said something to the effect of "if you're spending more than 2 hours on a page, you need to speed up." and that kind of declaration can be really insulting.

Low-detail, small page, especially with no background work... probably can be done in a couple of hours by a seasoned artist. We've seen some examples of this. But that does not describe all comic work, and the kind of output generally expected by an American artist these days is not the kind of thing you're generally going to whip through in a couple of hours.

ayalpinkus
12-30-2016, 01:37 PM
Manga and Franco-Belgian comics! That's is another good topic!
And is important to point their similarities and differences with American comics!
The main difference between these three is their PRODUCTION SYSTEM.




From the point of view of financing the production, yes. But creatively, there are also some differences.

The genres are different. We don't have superheroes, zombies, vampires. We do have science fiction and fantasy, but it does usually look a bit different from the American equivalent. Genres which are popular in Europe include thrillers and historical fiction. The realistically drawn albums tend to have been inspired considerably by film, Hollywood.

Page design is different. US comics tend to have an underlying three-tier structure, and the pages are often designed as one whole built up from one panel (a splashpage) to six panels. European albums have an underlying structure of four tiers, and are generally constructed from six to ten panels.

Also, US comics tend to make extensive use of dynamic camera angles. European albums tend to use mostly horizontal camera shots, with sometimes a birds-eye view or low angle shot, just not varied as violently as you sometimes see in American comics.

The ligne claire style (TinTin, Lucky Luke, Asterix and Obelix and such) is different again altogether.

[ADDED] Content-wise, a Franco-Belgian album contains roughly the equivalent of 8 American floppies, which has consequences for how stories are told.

[ADDED] I feel there's generally a difference in line quality, in that European comics tend often to be drawn with a dip pen and U.S. comics with a brush very often. I have no stats to back that up though. There are of course American artists who work with a dip pen and European artists who work with a brush, but generally speaking, I mean.

There probably are more differences. You can check out some preview pages for free at izneo.com, the European Comixology:

http://www.izneo.com/

and

http://www.europecomics.com/


I'm just mentioning this in case American writers or artists are interested in working for the European market. The skills of writers and artists are portable, I believe, so American writers and artists could work for the European market, but there are some differences, artistically, worth taking into consideration also.

Damn! Veered off-topic again... :-)

ayalpinkus
12-30-2016, 02:13 PM
I think the key point here is not so much that different artists spend different amounts of time... or that some are more detailed than others... but that earlier up there was a declaration of a sort that said something to the effect of "if you're spending more than 2 hours on a page, you need to speed up." and that kind of declaration can be really insulting.

Low-detail, small page, especially with no background work... probably can be done in a couple of hours by a seasoned artist. We've seen some examples of this. But that does not describe all comic work, and the kind of output generally expected by an American artist these days is not the kind of thing you're generally going to whip through in a couple of hours.


I think what he meant to say was: IF you want to work for a writer with a small budget, THEN you'll have to figure out how to make pages in very little time.

The alternative, of course, is to not work for that writer, and to for example take a decent paying day job instead and make your own comics in your spare time, comics you then own, and can spend time perfecting.

For me, personally, the latter is the preferred option.

Stewart Vernon
12-31-2016, 01:26 PM
I think what he meant to say was: IF you want to work for a writer with a small budget, THEN you'll have to figure out how to make pages in very little time.

The alternative, of course, is to not work for that writer, and to for example take a decent paying day job instead and make your own comics in your spare time, comics you then own, and can spend time perfecting.

For me, personally, the latter is the preferred option.

I would couple that with... writers should have fair expectations too. If you don't have a big budget, don't expect DaVinci paintings. I see some artists squeezed to do quality work faster than is comfortable and for less than it is worth.

Artists should turn down work that doesn't feel comfortable. It would help if companies and individuals also wouldn't put the squeeze on too. IF you can find someone willing to work for less, go for it! Can't blame anyone for doing that. Just don't try and strongarm someone else for not fitting the same mold.

FYI, not saying anyone in this thread has done that... but in other areas, I do see people sometimes trying to pressure in this manner.

ayalpinkus
12-31-2016, 03:42 PM
Apologies in advance for going off-topic -- yet again -- but I just noticed that Dark Horse is currently publishing Osamu Tezuka's work based on the character he's most famous for: Astro Boy.

http://www.darkhorse.com/Books/28-439/Astro-Boy-Omnibus-Volume-6-TPB#prettyPhoto

The publication date is December 28th, three days ago.

[EDIT] He also gets credit for that cover.

JRXTIN
12-31-2016, 04:09 PM
And I think your art pages look amazing! Don't change that!

Thanks, but I've changed it many times. There's pretty much no market for my detailed American style comic pages. I've had more "success" with a manga style - Link (https://www.amazon.com/Tai-PENG-Root-Power-Rising/dp/1495311058) and even simple cartoons (unfortunately that client appears to have gone out of business and taken his site down).

I'm a reasonably big manga/anime fan. I haven't read any of Tezuka's stories but ironically enough Astro Boy almost saved my career. The work went elsewhere though, where it appears to have flopped. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0375568/business?ref_=tt_dt_bus)

maverick
01-09-2017, 04:56 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4c/15/6b/4c156beea51b13b1e56305ae35470527.jpg

I don't think you could get away with this as a cover in American comics.

Maybe this one -

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDAwWDMwMA==/z/fa8AAOxy2CZTY8xu/$_35.JPG?set_id=89040003C1

Maybe not.

https://d20eq91zdmkqd.cloudfront.net/assets/images/book/large/9780/0072/9780007224531.jpg

Well this one has practice heads. Not very good ones, but . . .

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cc/5f/de/cc5fde4cff86f9c321a8c1c8e0c94887.jpg

O.K., this does tell the story, but there's no background, no dynamic cross hatching, cloth folds are simplistic, anatomy is rudimentary, perspective is eyeballed, detail is minimal.

Yes, you can get the speed and the high page count if you're willing to remove enough art from the art. To me Osamu Tezuka's 150,000 pages aren't the equal of however many thousand Jim Lee has drawn. Osamu Tezuka's compositions are good but I'm not going to call his art "high quality." I file it under "the least you can get away with." I'm not looking at it unless the story is extremely good, like Maus quality good. It was passable for for young children, in its day, before video games happened. Freak events of good fortune aside, I doubt a new artist could break out with this material in the present day.

Osamu Tezuka was creating in the 70s and 80s. Jim Lee is not only from a different country/culture, but a different time. Ridiculous comparison.

JRXTIN
01-09-2017, 06:30 PM
Osamu Tezuka was creating in the 70s and 80s. Jim Lee is not only from a different country/culture, but a different time. Ridiculous comparison.

We were talking about artists who crank out a dozen pages a day of simple art versus artists who take a day or more to create complicated art. The point was that there is no comparison.

Scribbly
01-09-2017, 09:25 PM
Talking about Jim Lee, Manga has a great influence on his famous style, actually Manga made in realistic style, not cartoony. There were a bunch of famous Mangakas (Manga artists) that clearly inspired Lee's initial style and technique.
Also, comics from Korea and probably. China. Unfortunaly, none of these artist did become popular in the American market which mostly imports Manga related to Anime (animation) characters. And nothing from Korea or China. Those clouds and wisps of dust and smoke, the parallel gradients, the figures facing camera only by front or profile ,the page composition, are a clever example of technique influence . Jim Lee dressed this Realistic Asian style with American characters. It was very impacting at the time. He created great success and acceptance with the concept. IMHO.

aaimiller
01-10-2017, 07:58 PM
huh?

This comic short comic was drawn (digitally) within 48 hours. Not garbage and (very close) definitely not a genius,
http://stupendodog.blogspot.com/2016/05/happybirthdayasshole.html

If he was only working for half of the 48 hours, that would still be almost 5 hours per page for the linked comic, and although the story is clear, they look much more like layouts than finished pages.

Jeff Smith, who has a fairly cartoony style, typically creates three pages per week, and released Bone in six issues/year.

I think a page in two hours is fine for a comic jam, but as a professional goal it is unrealistic. Perhaps it is achievable if you only do pencils, or only do inks, or only do flats, or only do colors. However most independent artists do all of the above.

There are however some methods which can help all artists work a little faster:
-do the entire book in stages: pencil everything, then ink everything etc.. instead of one page at a time.
-Ink all the important things in the first pass (faces, important details, poses), that way when you are rushing at the end, you aren't skimping on essential parts of the book.
-print gridded pages so you don't have to measure panels.
-find a cheap flatter. some people are willing to do it for $7-10/page.

JRXTIN
01-12-2017, 04:41 AM
I've managed to draw a page a day in my style, without compromise, for the last five days. I've lost all track of time and haven't been able to do hardly anything else, but still, that's a page a day.

Sierra
01-14-2017, 01:39 AM
I know several and I shared a link to one earlier in the thread.
http://stupendodog.blogspot.com/2016/05/happybirthdayasshole.html

Digitally drew that comic within 48 hours (this does not take into account the time spent writing.)

Webcomic artist are extremely fast.

For this comic, I see a simple, cartoonish art-style drawn in black-and-white, with eight pages in total, and three of those pages with only one or two subjects. It's reasonable to expect something like this to be produced in 2-3 days, if it's not made-to-order.

Complex art takes longer.

Semi-realistic art takes longer.

Thumbnailing & Crisp lines take longer.

Coloring takes longer.

Coloring with shading DEFINITELY takes longer.

Collaborating and communicating with a client takes UNTOLD amounts of time.


Quality work takes time. The only way to "Speed up" is to get lots of experience producing quality work, so that it comes more naturally to you. There's no shame in not having reached that point yet. There's also nothing wrong with valuing your time, your experience, or both for what it's worth.

TL-DR, it's kind of like this
http://www.pyragraph.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/GOOD-FAST-CHEAP.jpg

fritzthefox
01-14-2017, 09:04 AM
Regarding the prolific output of some famous Manga artists, I think it is worth noting that Japanese is the only language with a specific word for "worked to death".

aaimiller
01-14-2017, 11:14 AM
There's no shame in not having reached that point yet.

THIS!

Artists SHOULD always be looking for ways to work faster, but they shouldn't feel like they are garbage for not being able to meet some arbitrary number of pages per hour. Art Spiegelman would often spend weeks on a page. In his early years, Jack Kirby would work very fast, but would do things like fill up to 1/3 of a page with the word "BAM", or use other similar tricks to be able to draw less. He slowed down considerably as his work matured, and he often only did the pencils.