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View Full Version : How it looks from both sides


Frankmillerfan
03-27-2015, 03:15 PM
from the artist POV
https://scontent-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10625118_10152630784244998_5939170887702693526_n.p ng?oh=cbcd7e5e27988ac74a57842e0f3ef27a&oe=558C89B5

from the writer POV
https://scontent-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/l/t1.0-9/1509260_891980510860723_4206214726350501086_n.jpg? oh=967e628c678ce82204c9b5f9d4a5d673&oe=55854013

and in the end..nothing gets done:cry:

HouseStark
03-28-2015, 03:09 PM
Thanks for sharing. So true! Thanks for the new addiction!

QAN
03-28-2015, 06:46 PM
Riot. This reminds me of so many scenarios I've been in.

jllong
04-07-2015, 07:56 PM
Defiantly, I've lost more artists due to fading....still on the hunt. Good luck to all.
(title is intentional play on homophone)

Ace Corona
04-07-2015, 11:03 PM
I liked it!

Duane Korslund
04-08-2015, 09:00 AM
Ha! Nice

NatMatt
04-08-2015, 08:28 PM
These are very accurate to my experiences here on DigitalWebbing. Except I'm known to finish the project and then the writer backs out in the last minute (or just stops replying to my mail).

mlpeters
04-08-2015, 11:50 PM
It's why I write and draw... so I can take advantage of and ignore myself :D

Hanzou
04-30-2015, 08:56 AM
Honestly I couldn't imagine trying to break in as a writer. It must be a soul-crushing experience.

I mean at the very least a competent artist can go to a convention and sell pictures for money. Writers can't even do that. :cry:

Rob Norton
04-30-2015, 07:47 PM
i get where the point of these is coming from and I agree for the most part. I especially understand the part about having an artist agree to do something, and like SO many guys, they don't produce crap for weeks or months or ever. I absolutely refuse to become THAT guy.

but the part about the artist demanding pay. I think there are more sides to it than a one sided "pay me for my art".

one element is, is your art WORTH paying for? the skill level involved obviously has to come into play and people need to be honest about their work and ask for whats appropriate to their skill level. I saw a guy over on facebook asking for $50-75 a page and his art was horrible. HORRIBLE. I mean, the guy is trying and that's awesome. but he was a $10 a page at MOST guy.

another element where no pay is fine is a writer wanting to get with an artist, and you create a book with the hopes of getting picked up somewhere. something for submission. obviously there has to be honest intentions between people and that's the hard part.
but I have no money to pay anyone... why would I assume that a writer has money to pay me, if we are just guys wanting the same dream? so if you get together, actually make the book, share creative ownership...then yeah...for the right project, ill work for free. but there has to be a GOAL in mind...and end game for me to commit to such a large portion of my time and efforts.

Stewart Vernon
04-30-2015, 09:24 PM
The "getting paid" thing works from both sides too...

I mean, there are some people asking/demanding more than maybe you or I think they are worth. You can agree to pay them their asking price, see if they will haggle, or go elsewhere.

Some people overcharge... others undercharge... I don't think you can say "you charge too much so I'm not going to pay you" if you've agreed to the job already. If they don't deliver, or don't deliver the promised quality, that's one thing... but if you have buyer's remorse you shouldn't try to stiff them because you could have gotten a "better deal" elsewhere.

Hanzou
05-01-2015, 10:00 AM
i get where the point of these is coming from and I agree for the most part. I especially understand the part about having an artist agree to do something, and like SO many guys, they don't produce crap for weeks or months or ever. I absolutely refuse to become THAT guy.

but the part about the artist demanding pay. I think there are more sides to it than a one sided "pay me for my art".

one element is, is your art WORTH paying for? the skill level involved obviously has to come into play and people need to be honest about their work and ask for whats appropriate to their skill level. I saw a guy over on facebook asking for $50-75 a page and his art was horrible. HORRIBLE. I mean, the guy is trying and that's awesome. but he was a $10 a page at MOST guy.

another element where no pay is fine is a writer wanting to get with an artist, and you create a book with the hopes of getting picked up somewhere. something for submission. obviously there has to be honest intentions between people and that's the hard part.
but I have no money to pay anyone... why would I assume that a writer has money to pay me, if we are just guys wanting the same dream? so if you get together, actually make the book, share creative ownership...then yeah...for the right project, ill work for free. but there has to be a GOAL in mind...and end game for me to commit to such a large portion of my time and efforts.

There's a couple of ways to look at that;

If you don't really know the artist on a personal level, and you're asking them to do work for you, then you should probably expect the artist to want to be paid.

If you and the artist are lifelong friends who grew up together, and shared a passion for creating comics, that's a different story. The artist probably won't expect to get paid, and view it as a more collaborative effort.

People are wising up to the fact that a "back-end deal" probably isn't going to get anyone paid, and I'm seeing more and more artists demanding pay regardless of skill level as a result of that.

It doesn't help that there's a pretty lucrative market for comic art that a lot of people engage in. I've seen some pretty substandard comic art done by nobodies go for a pretty penny on ebay. It's hard to justify doing a 20+ page comic for hopes and dreams when you can draw a sketch card of a half naked-comic character for $50 or more.

NatMatt
05-01-2015, 12:23 PM
Let me tell you about an experience I had which I like to call "The Last Time I Worked For Back-End Pay". It started out with me looking through Digitalwebbing and finding a writer in need of an artist for his fantasy comic. Of course I jumped at it, since I feel fantasy is my strongest genre. I sent him my portfolio and I recieve a reply a few days later. I got the job. I was very excited as this was the first time in months that I got a job as a freelancing cartoonist. At the time, I was living with my parents and attending school so I could afford to work on this project without pay. The writer, who had previously been published already, told me he had connections with publishers and had a book already released. So you can imagine, I was really thrilled to be working on this project with a professionally published writer. He gave me the script and I fell in love with it. The characters, the story and the atmosphere were all up my alley and I quickly drew every single page as fast as I could. Within a month, I had successfully pencilled all twenty-one pages of the first issue. I then got in contact with the writer of the book, who was at the time working on selling his previous book. So he told me to look for a colorist, inker, and letterer for the book. I invested many hours of my days looking on forums and contacting colorists and inkers and letterers. This was very difficult as no one wanted to work for back-end and wanted to be paid upfront. It became overwhelming for me to find a quality colorist or inker or letterer who would practically work for free. It didn't help that the writer barely contributed at all. Finally I had found a letterer and inker but no colorist. After looking for about a month, I had found the perfect colorist. His coloring complimented my artwork as well as the story perfectly. Unfortunately and understandably, he wanted to be paid upfront. I then had to beg the writer to hire him but he had his mind set on not paying anyone upfront. So he instead chose a terrible colorist to color the book for free. It really agrivated me to see my pencils butchered by this guys terrible coloring so I once again begged the writer to hire someone else. This time though he had enough with my contributions to the book and fired me right out of nowhere. To see a project I had dedicated so much of my time to get taken from me crushed my spirits a and turned me bitter towards working for back-end pay. To this day I have not worked for back-end pay and luckily, I've found pretty good paying work. But never again will I devote all of my time to working on a project that might not see the light of day for nothing.

Bishop
05-01-2015, 12:40 PM
Yikes! Hopefully, that was a lot of lessons learned. You shouldn't work for backend pay, it's not your responsibility to find the inker/letterer/colorist, etc. Sounds Like the guys was a real tool.. Did the writer ever get the book published after you left?

NatMatt
05-01-2015, 01:17 PM
Yikes! Hopefully, that was a lot of lessons learned. You shouldn't work for backend pay, it's not your responsibility to find the inker/letterer/colorist, etc. Sounds Like the guys was a real tool.. Did the writer ever get the book published after you left?

Nope and I think that's the worst part. I loved that book and really wanted to see it get published. Sadly, it will probably never see the light of day. I still have the pencilled pages lying around my studio. I still think it's one of the best stories I've ever drawn and it pisses me off that it will never get published.

Stewart Vernon
05-01-2015, 02:09 PM
The only way I can see back-end pay working is IF it is your project and you and a friend are working it together... you're both willing to work for nothing because you're good friends and have a stake in it.

But I wouldn't expect anyone to work for free for something I create any more than I would likely work for free for their thing.

Doing something for a charity or cause would be different too... or doing something just for publicity that you don't ever expect to be paid for... but expecting back-end pay just seems like a lot of opportunity to be really mad down the road.

Frankmillerfan
05-15-2015, 01:34 PM
As far as back end deals are concerned at its core no one can force an artist or trick them into doing that. You have to agree. The solution to back end deal proposals is to simply not respond to them. But I don't think anyone is trying to trick an artist to work for nothing..I think when people say back-end they truly believe they have a hit on their hands. Its just that the reality is 9.9 times out of 10 most people don't or they woefully underestimate what it takes to get to published or even self publish.

But what if you found out the artists were approached to work on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle or the Walking Dead for back end..would you say they were foolish or very lucky and fortuitous?

The solution to back end proposals is to ignore them if youre looking to get paid. No anger or sarcasm just no thanks.

My issue is flaking on a project with no notice. That really creams my corn:man: