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LukePierce
08-19-2014, 05:31 AM
Okay, so the context here is that there is a set of test pages to draw (I can draw, but in a quite cartoonish style - sort of like Bloomin' Faeries if you have to know).

However, alarm bells rang when I saw the test script, because I can draw any page, but preferably the action part (which is fair enough).

However, just to list:


No amount of pages are indicated
Huge amount of moving panels
Reams and reams of text in some panels, nothing in others
No character sheets (although there is a link to the central character)
No camera angles
Prose in the script (Why?!)


Short of doing a whole editorial re-write of someone's pet project (and due to be published), how can I tell them that the script is utterly, utterly terrible?
It can't even be submitted to TPG, because the central theme is also morally reprehensible. The character drives men to desire her and, although it's not mentioned, she gets raped. Twice. (But it's "funny" so it's okay)

I love drawing fun, sexy, adult tales. But this? I'm really not enjoying this script at all. He seems like a nice guy too, which is why I feel so bad about needing to say something.

Magnus
08-19-2014, 06:10 AM
Camera angles is your part of the job. The rest sounds atrocious though.
Get back to them and say that you can't work with this, since it's not formatted as a proper script.

Frankly, it sounds like a writer who's either shit or too lazy to put the legwork and research in. I'd get out of this project now, before you get more headaches.

There are enough decent writers and projects out there waiting for artists. Go fish.

:M:

LukePierce
08-19-2014, 06:36 AM
I would say that camera angles is more the writers side, because you're trying to match their vision. I try to include camera angles when I write, because an artist always comes up with something other than intended (I was torn apart here in TPG 187: http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171928 ). It was a lesson I had forgotten and needed reminding for.

In one panel of this actual, I could have used four different angles, so which do I use? I don't know, that's for the writer to direct. I don't want to have to redraw a panel because I did the wrong angle. Thus: writers job to direct me.

I'm definitely going to have to get back to them, but I hate bearing terrible news. English isn't the first language either, so it makes it even worse. No excuse for the format though...

Scribbly
08-19-2014, 06:43 AM
Exit, Stage Left .

LukePierce
08-19-2014, 06:57 AM
Exit, Stage Left .

Pursued by a bear?

Steven Forbes
08-19-2014, 08:08 AM
Alright! Let's get to it!




No amount of pages are indicated

Is this a full script, or a plot first/Marvel method affair?


Huge amount of moving panels

See my first question.


Reams and reams of text in some panels, nothing in others

As the artist, I'm happy to see that you took the amount of text you'd have to work around into account. Overjoyed, in fact. Good on ya! I don't have anything else except more than likely the writer doesn't know what they're doing.


No character sheets (although there is a link to the central character)

So? I'm the only one I know of who pushes having a separate character sheet.


No camera angles

They aren't always needed. Not if the writer knows what they're doing.


Prose in the script (Why?!)

Again, is this a full script, or plot-first?


Short of doing a whole editorial re-write of someone's pet project (and due to be published), how can I tell them that the script is utterly, utterly terrible?
It can't even be submitted to TPG, because the central theme is also morally reprehensible. The character drives men to desire her and, although it's not mentioned, she gets raped. Twice. (But it's "funny" so it's okay)

As the artist, it isn't your place to rewrite it.

Your only choices are to do it and say nothing; not do it until it's better; not do it because it's utter crap and you're uncomfortable with the material.


I love drawing fun, sexy, adult tales. But this? I'm really not enjoying this script at all. He seems like a nice guy too, which is why I feel so bad about needing to say something.

That's because you're a nice guy. I wonder what that feels like...

Magnus
08-19-2014, 08:32 AM
I would say that camera angles is more the writers side, because you're trying to match their vision. I try to include camera angles when I write, because an artist always comes up with something other than intended (I was torn apart here in TPG 187: http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171928 ). It was a lesson I had forgotten and needed reminding for.

In one panel of this actual, I could have used four different angles, so which do I use? I don't know, that's for the writer to direct. I don't want to have to redraw a panel because I did the wrong angle. Thus: writers job to direct me.

I'm definitely going to have to get back to them, but I hate bearing terrible news. English isn't the first language either, so it makes it even worse. No excuse for the format though...

You're wrong. You don't tell a director how to shoot a scene in a screenplay. You don't in comics either. If your artist can't come up with good enough camera angles to match the narrative your artist isn't good enough.

If you as a writer have a certain angle in mind due to its relevance for the narrative or theme then by all means suggest it. But if you're working with a good artist, you'll certainly get a lesser product if you start dictating camera angles, page composition and other matters that the artist is best at. It's her/his trade.

:M:

LukePierce
08-19-2014, 09:11 AM
Alright! Let's get to it!

No pages indicated. Is this a full script, or a plot first/Marvel method affair?



Supposedly full script, but it's just a list of panels. I'm half minded to send you the horror, but it would make you explode and kick koalas.

Oh, I forgot to mention: It's limited to a minimum of 4 panels per page. I did a quick calculation and it can be done in 10 pages, but there are only two natural page breaks that I can find.


Moving Panels. See my first question.

Again, I am only assuming a full script. If it was a plot script, I would have no issue with that.


As the artist, I'm happy to see that you took the amount of text you'd have to work around into account. Overjoyed, in fact. Good on ya! I don't have anything else except more than likely the writer doesn't know what they're doing.

I'd agree with that last statement. Now I know why you get so mad over this stuff.


Character sheets. So? I'm the only one I know of who pushes having a separate character sheet.


It makes reference to other characters in the script. But with no description or anything.. so these guys arrrrrrre...?
I do know a couple of other editors who like character sheets as well, it's a habit of my own scripting. I think it's more a feature with independent projects or graphic novels though.


Camera angles. They aren't always needed. Not if the writer knows what they're doing.


I'm going to have to send you this script now.



Prose in the script. Again, is this a full script, or plot-first?


Again, script. I think.


Rewriting the script. As the artist, it isn't your place to rewrite it.

Your only choices are to do it and say nothing; not do it until it's better; not do it because it's utter crap and you're uncomfortable with the material.


I feel compelled to re-write, but I agree. It's in desperate need of a re-write. This isn't even in the same league as Taboo Illustrated. It's below that.


That's because you're a nice guy. I wonder what that feels like...

I haven't had the nice knocked out of me yet! Anyway, you are nice, because you do so much for the creator community. If you were really nasty, you wouldn't even do that.

LukePierce
08-19-2014, 09:18 AM
You're wrong. You don't tell a director how to shoot a scene in a screenplay. You don't in comics either. If your artist can't come up with good enough camera angles to match the narrative your artist isn't good enough.

If you as a writer have a certain angle in mind due to its relevance for the narrative or theme then by all means suggest it. But if you're working with a good artist, you'll certainly get a lesser product if you start dictating camera angles, page composition and other matters that the artist is best at. It's her/his trade.

:M:

We'll have to agree to disagree then. It works well when the writer/artist team are familiar with each other or working in a plot style, but when working from a script and the team haven't yet started that working relationship, then the writer needs to be more proactive and say what they mean.

It's far better for a writer to say: "it's this way", rather than the artist illustrate something only for the writer to turn around and say "Oh, I meant it in this way". It's a really quick way to piss off an artist due to the wasted effort.

But then, this is what an editor is for and to get the writer to tighten up before the artist begins to illustrate the approved thumbnails.

Bishop
08-19-2014, 09:49 AM
Okay, so the context here is that there is a set of test pages to draw (I can draw, but in a quite cartoonish style - sort of like Bloomin' Faeries if you have to know).

However, alarm bells rang when I saw the test script, because I can draw any page, but preferably the action part (which is fair enough).

However, just to list:


No amount of pages are indicated
Huge amount of moving panels
Reams and reams of text in some panels, nothing in others
No character sheets (although there is a link to the central character)
No camera angles
Prose in the script (Why?!)



This sounds like a nightmare to work with.


Short of doing a whole editorial re-write of someone's pet project (and due to be published), how can I tell them that the script is utterly, utterly terrible?
It can't even be submitted to TPG, because the central theme is also morally reprehensible. The character drives men to desire her and, although it's not mentioned, she gets raped. Twice. (But it's "funny" so it's okay)


Why even consider participating in something you find morally reprehensible?


I love drawing fun, sexy, adult tales. But this? I'm really not enjoying this script at all. He seems like a nice guy too, which is why I feel so bad about needing to say something.

Best to back out while you are on good terms, and you may get work from this guy in the future that is more to you liking and style.

Camera angles is your part of the job. The rest sounds atrocious though.
Get back to them and say that you can't work with this, since it's not formatted as a proper script.

Frankly, it sounds like a writer who's either shit or too lazy to put the legwork and research in. I'd get out of this project now, before you get more headaches.

There are enough decent writers and projects out there waiting for artists. Go fish.

:M:

^This

Exit, Stage Left .

^Definitely this. Hopefully, not pursued by a bear...

LukePierce
08-19-2014, 10:08 AM
Why even consider participating in something you find morally reprehensible?



It wasn't known until I read through the actual script.

crognus
08-19-2014, 10:33 AM
You're wrong. You don't tell a director how to shoot a scene in a screenplay. You don't in comics either. If your artist can't come up with good enough camera angles to match the narrative your artist isn't good enough.

While this can be true, it matters when the writer comes up with a panel that is impossible to draw or forces the artist to use boring angles. There was a script I saw on here a week ago that would have forced the artist to use a profile view on every panel. This wasn't because he specifically said he wanted a profile view, it was because he wanted the facial expressions of two characters facing each other visible on each panel. If you drew it the way he described, you literally could not have changed the angle from panel to panel. Writers need to be learn to be aware of possible camera angles even if they aren't giving them.

It also depends on the writer and the artist he/she is working with. Alan Moore was often very commanding with his scripts on what angle he wanted the camera placed at. Sometimes the writer has a specific reason for a certain angle (eg. I want a worm's eye view of the buildings because it's the first time this character has been in a city, and I want to put you in his shoes.) While the artist can often pick angles that are prettier, the angle the writer picks might be part of the narrative.

When I'm writing a script, on the first draft I'm sometimes overly picky with the angle because I'm trying to practice awareness. Before I send the script to the artist I then cut back and remove uneccesarry description, unless (like I stated earlier) I have a specific reason for giving an angle.

crognus
08-19-2014, 10:39 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree then. It works well when the writer/artist team are familiar with each other or working in a plot style, but when working from a script and the team haven't yet started that working relationship, then the writer needs to be more proactive and say what they mean.

This too. The specific artist/writer relationship matters a lot. The first artist I worked with on my last project kept picking fancy angles that didn't contribute to the mood of a scene, so I had to reign him in. The second artist I worked with understood what I was going for in each scene, so I began to heavily trim the descriptions.

crognus
08-19-2014, 10:43 AM
Exit, Stage Left .

I agree with Scribbly. When I first began to write, I basically had an artist take one look at my script and say, "This isn't how a comic script is written. Go read The DC Guide to Writing Comics. Bye." It was the best thing he could have done because it made me go do the self-study I needed to do before starting the project in earnest.

LukePierce
08-19-2014, 10:53 AM
While this can be true, it matters when the writer comes up with a panel that is impossible to draw or forces the artist to use boring angles. There was a script I saw on here a week ago that would have forced the artist to use a profile view on every panel. This wasn't because he specifically said he wanted a profile view, it was because he wanted the facial expressions of two characters facing each other visible on each panel. If you drew it the way he described, you literally could not have changed the angle from panel to panel. Writers need to be learn to be aware of possible camera angles even if they aren't giving them.

It also depends on the writer and the artist he/she is working with. Alan Moore was often very commanding with his scripts on what angle he wanted the camera placed at. Sometimes the writer has a specific reason for a certain angle (eg. I want a worm's eye view of the buildings because it's the first time this character has been in a city, and I want to put you in his shoes.) While the artist can often pick angles that are prettier, the angle the writer picks might be part of the narrative.

When I'm writing a script, on the first draft I'm sometimes overly picky with the angle because I'm trying to practice awareness. Before I send the script to the artist I then cut back and remove uneccesarry description, unless (like I stated earlier) I have a specific reason for giving an angle.

You've succinctly summed up what it was I was trying to say. Thank you.

Robert_S
08-19-2014, 11:17 AM
No amount of pages are indicated


Easy enough to count.


Huge amount of moving panels


Ok, this is bad. Tell them you need a single point in time to draw else you'll decide. If he disagrees with what you see too often then tell him you need him to be more detailed on PoT or you can't do it.


Reams and reams of text in some panels, nothing in others


Is it of the same scene? If they listed the details of the room and characters in one panel, there really is little more to tell in the next, except for posture/position changes, expressions, etc.


No character sheets (although there is a link to the central character)


Yeah, this is bad. Tell him you need more description of main characters.


No camera angles


Make up one or give him a brief of the scene as you see it. If he disagrees too much, tell him you need him to describe better what he is seeing.


Prose in the script (Why?!)


They may be trying to convey a mood of the scene, but without knowing what the prose is going on about, it's hard to say.


It can't even be submitted to TPG, because the central theme is also morally reprehensible. The character drives men to desire her and, although it's not mentioned, she gets raped. Twice. (But it's "funny" so it's okay)


Perhaps I'm too serious, but I can't see the forceful denial of someone personal rights as funny, ever. That's a very serious subject and beyond the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, the right to decide who you'll let inside you is quite personal.

If you're having a problem with the moral issues, let him know. If money hasn't exchanged hands, then the only loss is a bit of time.

Definitely take your points up with him. Be professional. Don't complain. Start off with what you like about it (if you do like anything) and then go into the problems.

LukePierce
08-19-2014, 11:29 AM
Sorry, I was unclear originally.

There is NO page numbering at all. Only Panel numbers.

I know to politely withdraw, I'm just not that good at saying "thanks, but no thanks."

Many thanks to everyone for the help, hopefully he doesn't get too upset.

crognus
08-19-2014, 01:47 PM
To be nice I would make sure to tell him why. Although you shouldn't re-write his script, I think you should tell him what's wrong with it.

Robert_S
08-19-2014, 07:05 PM
Sorry, I was unclear originally.

There is NO page numbering at all. Only Panel numbers.


Ah, he might be pushing it out too soon. I sometimes do panels only and work the layout at a later time, perhaps hoping to work with the artist on layout. If you want panel count per page and not have to worry about layout at all, you'll have to set that as a requirement pre-hire.

Magnus
08-20-2014, 04:54 AM
We'll have to agree to disagree then. It works well when the writer/artist team are familiar with each other or working in a plot style, but when working from a script and the team haven't yet started that working relationship, then the writer needs to be more proactive and say what they mean.

It's far better for a writer to say: "it's this way", rather than the artist illustrate something only for the writer to turn around and say "Oh, I meant it in this way". It's a really quick way to piss off an artist due to the wasted effort.

But then, this is what an editor is for and to get the writer to tighten up before the artist begins to illustrate the approved thumbnails.

You don't go from script to a pencilled page. You go to thumbnails. That's where you streamline the vision. That's where revisions happen, and if your artist doesn't want to make changes to his/her choices there because she/he has made a less than good decision then they've completely misunderstood the purpose of thumbnails.

Of course the writer needs to write what she/he means to see, but if you can't convey that in your panel descriptions without forcing camera angles on your artist you're not writing it properly. And like I said, if you have certain angles in mind because it pertains to the narrative, then by all means suggest them.

Again, if you've written a good script and your artist picks camera angles that do a disservice to the tone and narrative then you're not working with a good enough artist.

But don't hinder your good artist to deliver a better product because you think you've got a better visual sense of the narrative. The majority of writers don't.


:M:

Scribbly
08-20-2014, 06:19 AM
I'm not sure who's making the things difficult there. If it is the writer or the artist.

He don't like the script and find it morally reprehensible.
Why keep wondering? The moneys?
If it is so, swallow the script and get it done.

LukePierce
08-20-2014, 07:47 AM
Neither.

I've fired off the "No thanks" email, detailing the concerns, especially with the content. There's no substantial money involved either. There is a bunch of other stuff that I haven't actually mentioned (link to the ONE character, plus links to other websites).

The page rate is really low to make me think that this is practically a vanity project, as it will be web-based. However, I was attracted initially because I thought that it would be a bit of fun and, at the same time, decent experience. It's going to be neither and, to be honest, I do have some moral values (as well as having a job which requires me to be stain free).
For example, chloroform can be really funny in some circumstances, but when it's used as a plot device to get a character stripped naked and then depicted as being used as nothing more than an orifice for pleasure, well... you begin to see the problem.

LukePierce
08-20-2014, 07:58 AM
You don't go from script to a pencilled page. You go to thumbnails. That's where you streamline the vision. That's where revisions happen, and if your artist doesn't want to make changes to his/her choices there because she/he has made a less than good decision then they've completely misunderstood the purpose of thumbnails.

Of course the writer needs to write what she/he means to see, but if you can't convey that in your panel descriptions without forcing camera angles on your artist you're not writing it properly. And like I said, if you have certain angles in mind because it pertains to the narrative, then by all means suggest them.

Again, if you've written a good script and your artist picks camera angles that do a disservice to the tone and narrative then you're not working with a good enough artist.

But don't hinder your good artist to deliver a better product because you think you've got a better visual sense of the narrative. The majority of writers don't.


:M:

I'm sorry, with your insistence on correcting at every turn, you missed the really pertinent point in the very first post:

Okay, so the context here is that there is a set of test pages to draw.

This is why I pulled up as much as I did, because it's not so easy to judge the best candidate. Otherwise, in any other instance, your points would be valid. Now, agree to disagree, yes?