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eDuke
07-03-2013, 11:11 PM
So what are your thoughts on Adobe's Creative Cloud? Any plans on using it? I'm thinking once I'm ready, I'll spring for the single app version (Illustrator) at $20 a month. I'll miss having all the other Adobe products, but just can't see it being financially feasible to pay the $50 a month.

paul brian deberry
07-03-2013, 11:47 PM
the main concern seems to be; monthly cost and if you miss a payment you lose the ability to use those files.

my biggest gripe is you don't actually own the product. you are just renting it. after a year of paying 50 bucks you could have bought a copy.

HdE
07-04-2013, 03:39 AM
Must... resist... flamebait...

Seriously, and hopefully without coming off as an unreasonable jerk here, I think this business model of Adobe's is absolutely awful. I sincerely hope it blows up in their faces.

So much so, in fact, that I've resolved to ditch the Adobe software I'm using, and have already invested in Manga Studio 5. I'm investigating the plausibility fo swapping from Adobe Illustrator to CorelDraw for lettering (and, so far, there are no indications that it's any less capable).

I DO NOT - and, crucially, all but ONE of my freelancer buddies do not - want to pay a monthly fee for software that I feel I could, and by rights, SHOULD own for the cost of a one-off payment. I don't care how great that software is.

JimCampbell
07-04-2013, 08:58 AM
Yep. Sorry, it'll be a cold day in Hell before I buy into this.

Adobe have been utterly bare-faced about this: CC has nothing to do with delivering benefits to their customers and everything to do with normalising the peaks and troughs in their cash flow. This is Adobe saying:

"Hey, we've noticed that a lot of people don't upgrade every time we put out a new CS version. You know what would be great? If we could devise a scheme where our customers pays us the same as our most expensive upgrade package every two years, regardless of whether we actually introduce any compelling new features or fix any of the bugs. You know what would be even better? If they have to pay us this money every month between now and the end of time or their software will just stop working.

"Surely, no business in their right mind could sell this sort of package to their customers? Oh, right, we're Adobe and we have a de facto monopoly on professional grade design software, so we don't actually have to sell it to the customers — we can just bend them over and buttfuck them."

My last Design Standard upgrade cost me about £350. Under the CC model, I'll be paying Adobe £600 a year.

Fuck that. I'm using CS6 until it stops working and then I'll move to Corel as an Illustrator replacement.

Cheers

Jim

HdE
07-04-2013, 09:25 PM
"Surely, no business in their right mind could sell this sort of package to their customers? Oh, right, we're Adobe and we have a de facto monopoly on professional grade design software...

Except, in today's market, they don't.

I had dinner with some pals tonight who have been looking into the Creative Cloud, and the topic came up in discussion.

It is BREATHTAKING how virtually unanimous and condemnatory the reaction of most folks to the Creative Cloud has been (at least, in my experience). Words that come up regularly in discussion would include (but by no means be limited to) 'disgusting', 'apalling' and - my personal fave - 'dishonourable business practice'.

And it is, in my opinion. Sorry, but this whole notion that's springing up more and more lately, that Joe Public should be happy to fork out money for goods he doesn't physically own, and on an ongoing basis, is just downright despicable.

My friends have tonight confirmed for me that everything I do with Illustrator can be done with a £70 CorelDraw package (I'll continue to research that claim, though). They were also surprised and impressed to hear about Manga Studio 5 - and after just a little discussion, one of them even went as far as to order it before we all went home. The maths is simple: Four months' worth of Creative Cloud subscription buys MS5 outright. Ladies and gents - start learning MS5. Because it's going to become the new standard for comics. Mark my words.


The only way I can see Adobe retaining some credibility now is if they make further gestures such as they did recently, when they made an older version of Photoshop available for free download. Because, frankly, that's the only way some folks will be able to continue using Adobe branded products before long.

L Jamal
07-04-2013, 09:36 PM
I will just run CS3 on my current set-up forever.
I ran PS7 and Ill 9 from the time I purchased them until the release of CS4.
I use what works for me and it took me months to get used to CS3 after using PS6 and Ill9 for so many years.

superggraphics
07-04-2013, 10:16 PM
I use Photoshop 6.0 and Illustrator 8.0 to this day and have never had any problems or complaints from any clients or print shops... Everything comes out looking great at 300 dpi for print or 300% magnification for digital PDF's...

G

L Jamal
07-04-2013, 10:55 PM
I use Photoshop 6.0 and Illustrator 8.0 to this day and have never had any problems or complaints from any clients or print shops... Everything comes out looking great at 300 dpi for print or 300% magnification for digital PDF's...

What operating system are you running?
I had to which when I upgraded to Windows Vista.
The best thing about Ill CS3 is the ability to create a file with multiple pages.

superggraphics
07-05-2013, 12:26 AM
I'm running Windows XP at present... Attached is a page from my upcoming The Human Gargoyles project in collaboration with Maelo Cintron and Richard J Arndt which was done with both Photoshop 6.0 and Illustrator 8.0... The balloon and tail placements are by the artist Maelo Cintron with lettering and prepress production work by me...

http://i43.tinypic.com/vilfya.jpg

G

L Jamal
07-05-2013, 02:13 AM
That explains it.
As long as you don't upgrade beyond XP you're good.

Duane Korslund
07-05-2013, 09:39 AM
I"m good with my CS5 or 6....but if need be...I'll go over to manga studio or something like that...I'm sure there's plenty of photoshop clones out there to use if I must have a photoshop.

I think the cloud is a terrible idea, and I'm hoping that adobes profit margin plummets for it.

The Trout
07-06-2013, 02:30 PM
Now I'm almost afraid to mention how much I love Creative Cloud. I'm gonna look like a plant! But I use several Adobe products on a very regular basis, and I also like staying up to date. I'm actually saving a LOT of money in the long run with the Creative Cloud model. It's also prompting me to explore fun Adobe software I wouldn't have toyed with otherwise. The biggest thing, though, is that on my budget, I could never afford Adobe stuff to begin with. I can pay $50 a month, but not $1000 at one time.

khperkins
07-06-2013, 08:21 PM
My wife is running PS5.5 (yes 5.5 not CS5.5) on Windows7 with no problems.

JimCampbell
07-07-2013, 05:36 AM
But I use several Adobe products on a very regular basis, and I also like staying up to date. I'm actually saving a LOT of money in the long run with the Creative Cloud model.

If you owned — and used — every piece of software in the Adobe Master Collection, and you upgraded every time there was a CS release, then you're saving a small amount of money with Creative Cloud. For every other user, CC will work out significantly more expensive once the introductory rate runs out.

Cheers

Jim

Thomas Mauer
07-08-2013, 08:07 AM
US customers pay $49.99/month (excluding VAT)
German customers pay 61.49 Euro/month (including VAT)

Let's add the 19% VAT to the USD price: $59.49

As of today, $59.49 = 46.27 Euro

Needless to say this small discrepancy in pricing doesn't warm me to the idea of subscribing to Adobe CC. And this is coming from someone who's been buying video games in digital form only since 2008 (via Steam and GoG.com).

If Adobe charged reasonable prices (and supported Linux) I would get a subscription in a heartbeat.

JimCampbell
07-08-2013, 11:28 AM
Needless to say this small discrepancy in pricing doesn't warm me to the idea of subscribing to Adobe CC.

Yeah. There is that, too. The UK pricing works out to the equivalent of $75/mth. Adobe have been challenged on their outrageous European pricing before and have always claimed it was due to localised shipping and regionalisation costs, claims clearly exposed as bullshit now the software is all sitting on a server somewhere.

Cheers

Jim

eDuke
07-08-2013, 02:54 PM
I use Photoshop 6.0 and Illustrator 8.0 to this day and have never had any problems or complaints from any clients or print shops... Everything comes out looking great at 300 dpi for print or 300% magnification for digital PDF's...

Very good information here!

That's what I should do, just upgrade to last CS6. But I'm afraid if I want to stay current with my computer's OS, I'll eventually be forced into CC. It does suck balls that it requires a monthly 'rental' fee, but, at the same time, it'll be written off as a job expense.

Duane Korslund
07-08-2013, 03:41 PM
For work I have no problem allowing my bosses to pay for CC...I think those of us that are grumping about it, are grumping about our own personal out of pocket, non-reimbursable expenses.

Bishop
07-08-2013, 04:36 PM
Once I update my computer I'll be getting it, but I can use an education discount which brings it down to $20/month.

JimCampbell
07-08-2013, 04:39 PM
I think those of us that are grumping about it, are grumping about our own personal out of pocket, non-reimbursable expenses.

No. I have a fundamental objection in principle to having pay Adobe a monthly fee simply for the privilege of having my software continue to work.

Cash flow problem? Not unheard of for a freelancer, but you're suddenly looking at whether you should make your mortgage payments, or pay Adobe. Don't pay Adobe and the software you rely on to make a living will stop working.

The number of unfixed bugs in AI CS6 is a disgrace. Am I supposed to believe that Adobe will be more diligent following those bug reports up when they know I have to pay them twice what I was paying them before or my software will just stop working?

No. Just no. This is wrong. The fact that they're buttfucking so many of their overseas customers on the price is just insult to injury.

Cheers

Jim

Thomas Mauer
07-08-2013, 05:50 PM
No. I have a fundamental objection in principle to having pay Adobe a monthly fee simply for the privilege of having my software continue to work.

Cash flow problem? Not unheard of for a freelancer, but you're suddenly looking at whether you should make your mortgage payments, or pay Adobe. Don't pay Adobe and the software you rely on to make a living will stop working.

The number of unfixed bugs in AI CS6 is a disgrace. Am I supposed to believe that Adobe will be more diligent following those bug reports up when they know I have to pay them twice what I was paying them before or my software will just stop working?

No. Just no. This is wrong. The fact that they're buttfucking so many of their overseas customers on the price is just insult to injury.

Cheers

Jim

Fun fact: Adobe has a big office in Munich. I highly doubt it's just a marketing/localization office, too. Just look at the first few names listed in the splash screen credits of any Photoshop since at least 5.0 -- Germans.

So even the "overseas" argument is bullshit.

superggraphics
07-09-2013, 04:53 PM
Here's the latest news:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/adobe-may-rethinking-cloud-apps-175437910.html

And for those who prefer not to click to the article site:

Adobe May Be Rethinking Cloud Apps Pricing Options After Customer Backlash

Adobe recently switched to selling its software only over the Internet, but that's not going over well with some customers.

So, Adobe may be adding more pricing options after a "massive customer backlash," the blog Photo Rumors reported Sunday .

Adobe customers used to buy popular software like Photoshop, Illustrator, and Premiere, and then download it onto their PCs or install it using CDs.

But in May, Adobe said it would no longer sell its software this way. Instead, customers would only be able to buy Adobe software via monthly subscription delivered through its Creative Cloud.

On Monday, Adobe launched its first cloud-only apps through Creative Cloud.

Many customers are angry about the change because they feel it's going to make Adobe software more expensive for them to use.

According to Photo Rumors, Adobe recently sent a survey to customers asking if they'd be willing to pay $9.99 per month for Photoshop, or $29.99 per month for Creative Cloud suite, previously called Creative Suite, which includes all the Adobe apps.

Adobe is also pitching Creative Cloud suite as a three-year contract. At the end of it, customers will get their own copy of Creative Suite 6, the last version Adobe sold as packaged software, Photo Rumors reported.

That's better than the pricing model Adobe shared in May, where customers would pay $19.99 per month for one app, and $49.99 per month for the whole suite.

We've reached out to Adobe for comment and will update if the company responds.


G

JimCampbell
07-10-2013, 03:58 AM
Here's the latest news

Hmm. I was quite heartened by that until I realised that the article was three weeks old. I can't find anything more recent that gives weight to what was a largely unsupported piece, I'm afraid…

Cheers

Jim

vartemis
07-13-2013, 05:24 PM
The number of unfixed bugs in AI CS6 is a disgrace. Am I supposed to believe that Adobe will be more diligent following those bug reports up when they know I have to pay them twice what I was paying them before or my software will just stop working?

Cheers

Jim

I'm about to upgrade to 6 while I still have access to an educational edition discount. I'm currently running 5.5. What bugs should I be aware of? I'm running a PC Win 7 unit.

j

JimCampbell
07-14-2013, 07:01 AM
I'm about to upgrade to 6 while I still have access to an educational edition discount. I'm currently running 5.5. What bugs should I be aware of? I'm running a PC Win 7 unit.


Right… I should make the proviso that I'm running a Mac, so some/all/none of these may differ on Windows, but here are the bugs I've encountered, plus the fix/workaround where known

1) Change Case -> Sentence Case strips the first letter off every paragraph in the selected text. No workaround.

2) Actions invoked by F-key play twice. Fix: use the Actions palette to insert a 'Stop' at the end of the recorded sequence

3) Illustrator mis-reads a right-click as a regular click if done too rapidly after regular clicks, so the sequence double-click to select word, right click to bring up contextual menu is read as a triple-click and selects whole para instead. No workaround, you just have to learn to delay the right click slightly.

4) Document window behaviour is broken. With multiple document windows open, switching to another application and then switching back to AI brings the wrong window to the front. No fix or workaround.

5) Overprint stroke/fill checkbox behaves unreliably with mixed selections. Sometimes clicking it will activate the overprint for all items, sometimes deactivate. No fix or workaround.

6) Exported TIFFs randomly display white hairlines in the placed artwork (the elements from vector layers are unaffected). In previous versions, this could be reliably attributed to the placed art being a TIFF with unflattened layers and fixed by flattening the art in Photoshop. In CS6, it appears to occur randomly. Copying and pasting entire document contents to new document usually fixes (although I've taken to just bodging the hairline out with PS CS6's brilliant Content Aware Fill tool).

7) Exported CMYK TIFFs do not have a colour profile embedded, even if you tick the checkbox for it. No workaround, but I run a batch post-process on my TIFFs in Photoshop (http://clintflickerlettering.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/sunday-surgery_24.html) so it was a relatively simple task to make PS convert to the correct profile as part of the same process.

I'm sure I've forgotten some, but those are the biggies. In all honesty, I wish I'd stayed with CS5.

Worth mentioning that I've reported all of these as bugs to Adobe and they haven't fixed any of them, hence my cynicism at suggestions that Creative Cloud will make Adobe more attentive to fixing bugs…

Edit to add: In the interests of fairness, however, I should mention that Adobe claimed to have re-written the AI code from scratch for CS6 and, on the Mac version at least, filter and path operations are definitely quicker, and file operations (Save/Export processes) which had previously been a bottleneck in my workflow are much faster.

Cheers

Jim

Lord Fejj
07-15-2013, 02:24 AM
I'm still using PS 7, on XP but it also works on my laptop with MS 7... I hate Microsoft 8...

Kel Nuttall
07-17-2013, 05:06 AM
Meh. Have it, use it, like it.

I'm not sold on some of the math people float in these discussions bitching about CC. I looked at it, for me it works out the same or better money-wise with constantly updated software and access to some apps I never would have invested in. I guess if you never update your OS or software it seems like a lot of money. But even if you just have Illus and PS and upgrade every few times...or use the old one until its not updatable and buy the whole app new...

If they bump it down to $30 all the better.

Scribbly
07-17-2013, 07:20 AM
In some countries $29.99 is half or a full month of salary.


I'll keep my PS 7.0 and Illustr. 10.0 working on W7 with no problem, until they send me a bug (update-upgrade) for kill them.
I may start looking for substitutes if that happen.
Corel and Gimp maybe?

PS, the best comics coloring ever made at Image was made with Ps 4.0 and Ps 5.0.

JimCampbell
07-17-2013, 08:10 AM
Meh. Have it, use it, like it.

I'm not sold on some of the math people float in these discussions bitching about CC. I looked at it, for me it works out the same or better money-wise with constantly updated software and access to some apps I never would have invested in.

I beg your pardon? Even if I upgraded Design Standard annually at the cost of my CS6 upgrade, that would still only represent an annual expenditure of ~£350. Under Creative Cloud, that goes up to £600. For that, I get the added value of Premier, Audition, Dreamweaver and Flash, applications that I will never use.

I'm glad the maths works out for you. Please explain why the above is a good deal for me, because I can't see it.

Cheers

Jim