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paul brian deberry
04-18-2013, 11:29 AM
[I have no cool image because I'm a writer.]

The message is pretty clear. Writers are not made out of money. We work 50 jobs just to support our foolish dream of one day being the next Stan Lee, [your favorite writer here] etc., etc., We are not all basement trolls, that live off their mothers or fathers social secruity. We have wives, sons, daughters, pet gold fish that all need to eat. We have to pay rent or a mortgages. Our cars need gas to get us to work so we can feed our families.

We are writers and we want to be paid TOO - damn it!

:fart:

ColbyAddison
04-18-2013, 07:47 PM
Yep. I can understand how an artist would want to be paid for their work, they should be paid. Though Ive always thought it was a bit hypocritical for an artist to go on these diatribes about how they deserve to be paid, yet they have no issue with the writer not being paid. In many cases, the writer actually loses money when all the expenses are calculated. For amateur comic creators, I see nothing wrong with both parties working for free, a true collaboration on a project they both feel passionate about. Share the burden. Why should the writer always be the one that has to risk going in debt to pursue their dream? Good writers are just as valuable as good artists.

I really do think a factor in this is that it's not as easy to tell if your writing sucks. I can't draw, I know this. I look at my drawing and I know it sucks. But many people who write, just aren't capable of noticing how bad it is. It's as if everyone thinks they can write a well told story. NOT the case.

Pay the artist what you can, pay the writer what you can. If you love the project and want to build up your portfolio, don't be ashamed to collaborate together for nothing but hopes and dreams. Just make sure that you aren't being taken advantage of for free. Now that's a different story.

neuralclone
04-18-2013, 08:44 PM
Well put Colby.

CHWolf
04-18-2013, 11:00 PM
Best thread.

Nobody tell anybody it's here.

ColbyAddison
04-18-2013, 11:25 PM
Yeah, I'm sure this thread could turn into yet another writer versus artist debate very easily. Lol.

Steven Forbes
04-19-2013, 01:42 AM
I really do think a factor in this is that it's not as easy to tell if your writing sucks.

Untrue.

The writer themselves may not be able to tell if their writing sucks, but it's easy enough to find out. (And while "good" and "bad" are subjective, there's at least a minimum standard to hold to: spelling, syntax, and grammar. If you're writing and see a lot of red and green lines, it's time to take another look at what you wrote.)

The first thing to do is to go to a reader and ask them to read your stuff, and give honest feedback. Not family or friends, but an actual reader. It doesn't matter if they know comics or not. A reader will be able to at least tell you about any spelling or grammar mistakes, if things were unclear, and how they felt after reading it.

What I always advocate is getting a competent editor. Self-serving? Maybe a bit, but I don't care if someone hires me or not. Just get someone competent to help with quality control. There are a lot of comics being put out that would be that much better if there were an editor onboard. (Yes, I have people I trust to edit my own stuff.)

While you can't tell at a glance whether or not the writing is good, you could probably tell in two minutes.

-Steven

CHWolf
04-19-2013, 03:33 AM
To add a note - You'll still need at least a sliver of ability to discern what's positive feedback from the crap.

I've gotten some real shitty feedback from folks, even professionals. For example, an Editor who called the protagonist by the wrong name no matter how many times the correct one was mentioned... then told me the ending made no sense because Gangsters showed up out of nowhere for no reason.

This was a story that began with someone hiding out from Gangsters.



...

So yeah.

Steven Forbes
04-19-2013, 04:04 AM
Ouch.

Sounds like someone didn't read the script.

(I've learned to only read the dialogue on new scripts and glance over the panel descriptions. If the dialogue intrigues me, then I'll go back and give it a deeper look. Saves me a lot of time.)

But Wolfie's right: you have to have the ability to know what's good from what's crap. And just because you disagree with someone's stance doesn't mean that what they're saying is crap. Figure out why they're saying what they're saying, and why you believe they're wrong. That's where learning takes place.

-Steven

CHWolf
04-19-2013, 04:13 AM
We should come up with a humorous list of what to watch out for in feedback.

"Needs more boobs."

Clockworm
04-19-2013, 08:54 AM
Writers are paid...

IN MISERY!

*Dunks head in whiskey*


Speaking of feedback, my favourite piece of received criticism is: "Not camp enough."
It was good advice, too.

Not all criticism is made equal, and some haven't clue how to give it. Like the Forbesmeister said, rather than WHAT, focus on WHY someone is saying something.

paul brian deberry
04-19-2013, 09:54 AM
Best thread.

i try

Nobody tell anybody it's here.

damn, to late.

paul brian deberry
04-19-2013, 09:56 AM
Yeah, I'm sure this thread could turn into yet another writer versus artist debate very easily. Lol.

that was my goal and you guys have already ruined it! curses! :cry:

Clockworm
04-19-2013, 11:47 AM
DEAR ARTISTS OF THE WORLD,

YOU SUCK!

P.S Please draw my story. Please... I'll pay you. In blood. Everyone needs blood. Am I right? *Faints*

Sincerely yours,
Sad Little Writer

ColbyAddison
04-20-2013, 03:44 AM
I was meaning an ameatur writer judging your own work. No offense to anyone in particular, but I was mostly referring to certain artist that think they don't need a writer because they can write. In my opinion, in most cases they can't tell a good story. They don't know that, cause they like what they've written, so its automatically good. Just my observation anyway. I think that is one of the numerous reasons certain people think an artist is a lot more important than a writer.

Everything that's been said above is true. It's real easy to tell if a story is being well told if you A) didn't write it and B) trained and educated yourself.

CHWolf
04-20-2013, 03:56 AM
It'd be nice if illustrators accepted payment in writing.

"Draw this, and I'll write two projects of your design."

Scribbly
04-20-2013, 07:16 AM
You guys can't afford pay artists for making the artwork for your scripts.
OK.
Very understandable.
But, what are you putting in the table? Only your script?
And why should anyone force himself on spending days and hours thinking and working on fleshing out artwork for your script?
For what reason? What is the gain for the artist?


What about putting on the table not only your script but a reasonable deal for your artist?
As sharing the ownership of the property that what is created with him/her?
In a reasonable proportion 60/40 or 70/30?
Adding to this deal any back-end profits and any other goodies that could be made from the book in
its way for success?

Example,
Superman, created by two starving artists, Shuster and Siegel.
Superman, it took "6 years" for the authors, who also were sharing the property of it, to reach a bad deal with a Publisher.
From there and after it was published, Superman's idea skyrocket to a multimillion dollars success in sales.
Something that caught unaware to its own creators. And the publisher.

What if Jerry Siegel didn't offer Joe Shuster a shared ownership over Superman?
Would ever Superman become a reality? Or Siegel's idea would become another script that went gone in oblivion?
This is only an example, but in the world of successful comics, only shared ownership or work for hire
is the glue that keep the things going.

Also, if you can keep a "skilled" artist attracted and attached on working for your full project, is
almost certain that publishers will be attracted as well, and therefore the comics audience will accept
it.


Just look around to all these successful comics writers. How did they make to get there?
First attracting by the script, then offering good deals to artists.
Because is the artist the one who can transform your raw script in a full "tangible" book
that can be commercialized.
Having the book in hand, nobody knows where the things can go.
The only question is,
After the book is made, who's the owner? The writer? The artist? Or both?


Not all is about cash payment to artists on Indie projects.
Page rates only works well when you, the author, want keep total ownership.
That is why you pay page rates, that is why mainstream publishers pay page rates.
Not only for have artwork for your book,
but to assure the artist is giving away his ownership's rights over what was created by his/her collaboration.

In a "Collaborative project" the minimum that an artist should expect, on sights of future, is to have an
important slice of ownership over the property that is created. That is real partnership.

Steven Forbes
04-20-2013, 08:52 AM
Almost everything Scribbly says within a Writer's Showcase post should be skipped entirely, especially when the thread title is meant as a joke, AND not much has been seriously said about art.

It's always the same thing.

No, the tune never changes.

At least it's in English. I give him credit for that. He speaks more languages than I do, and is able to make himself understood.

Just go on with the regularly scheduled program.

-Steven

Scribbly
04-20-2013, 10:06 AM
Thank you for your disregarding and patronizing Steve.
Very kind of you.

What about encouraging the writers on charging "you", the Editor, for
working in the scripts you are editing for them?

That could be a good laugh.

Steven Forbes
04-20-2013, 11:06 AM
I constantly tell writers to get a good, competent editor. I don't care if it's me, as long as they are competent. This raises the quality of the comics made, and thus, the quality of comics that are read.

Where's the laugh in that?

-Steven

Scribbly
04-20-2013, 11:15 AM
I constantly tell writers to get a good, competent editor. I don't care if it's me, as long as they are competent. This raises the quality of the comics made, and thus, the quality of comics that are read.

Where's the laugh in that?

-Steven
The laugh would be if you pay the writers for editing their books.
And not the other way around.
That's the laugh.

Steven Forbes
04-20-2013, 11:33 AM
Oh, yeah, that would be very funny.

But, you know, anything can happen.

-Steven

CHWolf
04-20-2013, 05:48 PM
I've worked with indie folks who were publisher and EiC, even handling the mundane chores on occasion... so in effect editors out there do pay writers along with the rest of the team.

And why should anyone force himself on spending days and hours thinking and working on fleshing out artwork for your script?

This is the major mistake supporting all of your arguements.

I'll focus in on it...

force

Illustrating very-very-very-indie comics by way of finding an aspiring author on a free public board is ANYTHING but "forcing" or "being forced".

At best it's a crucial part of build a career. At least, it's a hobby.


All of your posts are based on the flawed assumption that illustrators are poor little innocents being forced to do unspeakable acts by dirty old writers in trench coats. When you start off with that mind-set, of course you're going to repeat the same offended gibberish every time the topic comes up.


Any creator shouldn't "force" himself to work on comics, unless he really needs to find something else to do with his life.

If an illustrator wants to work on something for credit, for experience, for cash payments, or for a basket of muffins with bites taken out... that's his/her choice, regardless of any preconcieved notions you want to waste your time touting.

paul brian deberry
04-20-2013, 06:31 PM
Oh goody scribbly showed up. No itza party!

Gonzogoose
04-20-2013, 11:54 PM
It'd be nice if illustrators accepted payment in writing.

"Draw this, and I'll write two projects of your design."

:thumbs:

Now that would be awesome. lol

Scribbly
04-21-2013, 02:29 AM
This is the major mistake supporting all of your arguements.

I'll focus in on it...

Illustrating very-very-very-indie comics by way of finding an aspiring author on a free public board is ANYTHING but "forcing" or "being forced".

At best it's a crucial part of build a career. At least, it's a hobby.


All of your posts are based on the flawed assumption that illustrators are poor little innocents being forced to do unspeakable acts by dirty old writers in trench coats. When you start off with that mind-set, of course you're going to repeat the same offended gibberish every time the topic comes up.

Any creator shouldn't "force" himself to work on comics, unless he really needs to find something else to do with his life.

If an illustrator wants to work on something for credit, for experience, for cash payments, or for a basket of muffins with bites taken out... that's his/her choice, regardless of any preconcieved notions you want to waste your time touting.
That's why everybody want to draw for you.
Because you are an ignorant amateur with pretensions.

All my posts are based on the assumption that skilled illustrators are professionals
working under the commitment of get their assignments done on time and format for the
complete satisfaction of his clients, employers and partners in a project.

Merrian-Webster Dictionary:
Conmmitment:
1- an agreement to do something at future.
2- to engage oneself in a obligation or duty at future.
3- an obligation, promise, etc that restricts one's freedom of action.

Or, to "force oneself" on get something done.

Without commitment, we have inconsistency.
How an artist can get anything done (more than less a Graphic novel or comics book)
when working inconsistently and without commitment?

Hobby? What is the idea of hobby for you? A recreation or amusement?
To start doing something and set it at side when tired or bored
of working on it?

Hobby is to read a comics book. To make a comics book is a work.

Maybe that is why by working with this criteria many artists are walking away in middle of comics projects.
When the initial amusement is gone, and the deadline become overwhelming, is time to go away. Hobbyists.
Good look on getting a comics book done by hobbyists.
There are thousand of these publishing in Drunk Duck or any of these free sites online.
But nobody want read these comics, not even for free.

"If an illustrator wants to work on something for credit, for experience, for cash payments, or for a basket of muffins with bites taken out"...it is because he/she is an ...AMATEUR.
And mainstream comics audience don't pay for read inconsistent amateur's work.

Professional illustrators are always open to put their experience in the table in exchange of good deals.
Don't you have a good deal? Then, is FUCK YOU, PAY ME.

CHWolf
04-21-2013, 02:33 AM
That's why everybody want to draw for you.
Because you are an ignorant amateur with pretensions.

Thanks for the opportunity to toot my own horn. I have multiple works in progress, with artwork coming in slowly. I have previous works published and ready for publication. You can Google one of my non-comic stories and see tons of results with thousands of comments.

I put an e-mail address in one of my stories last December, and right about now it's gotten a couple thousand letters. That's just people who read AND decided to try the address to see if it worked.

You... I have no idea what you do or what you've done as you keep avoiding it every time I ask.


Shut your idiot mouth. You're embarassing yourself.

Scribbly
04-21-2013, 02:44 AM
Of course, anyone that gets in contact with you is by default embarrasing himself.
Is like touching fecal matter.

CHWolf
04-21-2013, 02:57 AM
You'd know all about dung, little buzzing fly.

*Swat!*


(Still no word on what you've done.)

Scribbly
04-21-2013, 03:20 AM
You'd know all about dung, little buzzing fly.

*Swat!*


(Still no word on what you've done.)

Disclaimer
What I do or I have done is only incumbency of my clients, colleagues and patrons, not for lowlifes like you.

CHWolf
04-21-2013, 03:42 AM
I said you didn't have to tell us anything about names or publishers. You read it. You understood it. You have nothing to say.

Now everyone here knows who you are. You have no experience, you have nothing to back up any of the insane shit you spew.


Ah, this feels great. :)

Scribbly
04-21-2013, 03:48 AM
I said you didn't have to tell us anything about names or publishers. You read it. You understood it. You have nothing to say.

Now everyone here knows who you are. You have no experience, you have nothing to back up any of the insane shit you spew.


Ah, this feels great. :)
Sorry, I forgot I was addressing the retard in the forum.
My bad.

CHWolf
04-21-2013, 04:09 AM
Still no number.

Fraud.

Scribbly
04-21-2013, 04:13 AM
My apologies if any fecal matter, lowlifes or retards feel offended that I compared them with you.

CHWolf
04-21-2013, 04:21 AM
I made you an avatar, Squabbly.

http://piclocker.com/images/141hobotar.jpg

ColbyAddison
04-21-2013, 05:00 AM
CHWolf may just be my favorite person at the moment. This is hilarious.

CHWolf
04-21-2013, 05:03 AM
Careful, you will begin a smell of fecese from association.
I guarantee it.

Evan Henry
04-21-2013, 05:16 AM
FTR, I think Scribsy has had published work in the past, but I only found out about it because someone else posted a link to his website (still not sure why he bothers to maintain it since apparently he prefers it remain a secret). He murdered this thread with his usual style of nonsense. Another notch on the belt...

CHWolf
04-21-2013, 05:44 AM
Yeah, I've seen his stuff. No idea what it was or where it went, but hey.

I'd just be interested to know. Are we talking with someone who's illustrated a thousand issues, or someone like the rest of us who's making it little by little... or someone with maybe one 8-pager?

It's all well and good - your body of work is your body of work - but when you start telling everone else what's what and alledging OTHERS have nothing going on it's time to put up or shut up.


:B


We can still have fun in the thread, though. Just add to the sentence in the tags!

Scribbly
04-21-2013, 09:48 AM
The things are very simple guys.
Do you want get paid for your comics scripts?
Publishers, retailers and the worldwide audience of comics readers
are the ones constantly paying for having new comics stories to read.

How to get there? Writing attractive scripts.
Making a book of professional features from it.
How to get skilled and professional artists on illustrating your books?
Very simple.
Do you want total ownership? Pay fair page rates.
Do you want partnership? Share the ownership and credits with your artist.

Why? Because only an skilled artist can transform a raw comics script in a
a book ready for be commercialized.

That is all you need for having a digital book, ready for print in your hands.
Make a few inexpensive POD prints and send it as submission to publishers.
Or sell your books online, building your brand as comics author.

The right way is simple.
Any other shortcuts or lousy deals will get you to nowhere but a nightmare.
Also, by using common sense, no skilled artist will ever go there.

Out there are hundred of skilled professional artists that are ready for work
on comics projects, looking for good deals and avoiding the bad ones.
You didn't get your book done yet? Think twice.


Now, you can get back to mock and make a laugh of me and my absurd advice.

But before you go further, remember that I am also, one of these skilled artists
that can make your dream come true.
Maybe one of the few, able of spent his time showing you the way of get it done.

Enough with this shit.


.

Evan Henry
04-21-2013, 10:11 AM
You almost had me there. :laugh:

CHWolf
04-21-2013, 09:44 PM
Please SuperMonkey.
Stop mock and make a laugh.
Scribbly is the one to see you to the promised land.

Want to make comic?
Pay Scribbly for make comics.

He is one of the very few of not pity hobos you can trust to make you a celebrity fame star.

Don't ask for proof.
Especially don't ask where information comes from in experience!

You smell like feces if you do and you touch will make feces smell.
Every fifth person you associate he will smell like pizza heavy on garlic.
Don't ask why this is an secret.

.

Scribbly
04-23-2013, 04:41 PM
Want to make comic?

For your own sake.
Pay your artist (whoever he/she could be) fair page rates.
This will give you ground for ask him/her in exchange to yield his rights over what is created to you.
By contract.

Or share ownership over the creation if you don't have the money for pay the artist.
By contract.

Why? Because ONLY this two options will save you of legal trouble at future if
for some uncanny reason your work become successful some day.