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Allegory Comics
09-02-2011, 01:12 PM
Of all the changes in the DCnu, some are very minor and some are much bigger. Superman is getting the biggest makeover of all. Here's what we know so far ...


Both Ma and Pa Kent are dead before he moves to Metropolis and becomes Superman.
This Superman is more cynical than before. Like the 1930s, he's fighting a lot of social injustice and corruption.
This Superman is younger, and can't fly yet. Like the 1930s, he can only "leap tall buildings in a single bound". But Morrison hinted at the possibility that he might learn to fly and/or become more powerful like the Superman we know as he gets older and learns how to use his powers.
Superman isn't completely invulnerable anymore. He can bleed. That's why he soon switches from "Bruce Springsteen Superman" in blue jeans and t-shirt, to the Kryptonian armor costume.
Clark is not married, and is not dating Lois Lane yet.
Lois is Clark's boss.
Lois is dating another reporter who rivals Clark Kent.
Clark will enjoy having powers, and pushing his limits. Not at all like the measured and precise Superman we've known for years.


I found it very interesting when Morrison told Newsarama:
A lot of people were losing their jobs and losing their livelihood (in the 1930s), and a lot of people were realizing there was corruption in high places. I think we're at that time again.
I'm also looking forward to seeing a Clark Kent that I've never seen before -- who is still learning his powers and having a bit of fun. Until now, we've only seen that in flashback scenes, miniseries or Elseworld comics.
So what we're trying to do is bring back that proactive Superman, but also allow him to change and to make these mistakes and to get beaten up a bit, and to have to come back and rethink his mission. I wanted to see him sweat a little and to bleed a little, and to restore him to a kind of humanity that we could all understand before moving him on.
People are always complaining that he's too powerful. Well, here y'go!

Steve Williams
09-02-2011, 02:13 PM
I've never complained that he was too powerful. I've always felt that's what Superman was all about, he was as powerful or almost as powerful as DC's toughest foes. He stood whereas most anyone else would fall. That's what was so great about Superman is that he was 'Super'! Now he's 'not-so-super-Superman'?

He already has bled, he's been beaten, and he's shown an indomitable will to win against overwhelming odds. He's even been nearly killed.

Personally, I think it's just lazy and unimaginative writers that can't write stories for him and decide to 'cheat' and make him more human and worse, take him back to square one so they can rewrite all the stories that have already been told! I dislike it when they do this to our most powerful and popular heroes.

While I love new ideas and concepts, I don't feel as if this is a new concept. I think I'll skip these books and wait till they bring back the real Superman.

On a side note, I also hate it when writers feel the need to put in excessive curse words, gore, and nudity in a book, saying that not allowing such vulgar things hinders their creativity and what not. If you need to put that vulgarity in your books to tell a story, you didn't have a strong story to begin with.

KidIntense
09-02-2011, 02:23 PM
I really loved the classic 1930s Superman so much, it is amazing, but the new Superman is just like the 1930s Superman. I gotta get this issue.

ronin7
09-02-2011, 03:16 PM
I love how Morrison basically says "I don't know what the fuck I am doing." That was clear when he wrote ASS version of Superman.

Allegory Comics
09-02-2011, 03:22 PM
I love how Morrison basically says "I don't know what the fuck I am doing." That was clear when he wrote ASS version of Superman.
You mean the critically acclaimed, sold out miniseries that won an Eisner? Is that the All Star Superman you mean?

:rolleyes:

Mark Bertolini
09-02-2011, 04:05 PM
I've never complained that he was too powerful. I've always felt that's what Superman was all about, he was as powerful or almost as powerful as DC's toughest foes. He stood whereas most anyone else would fall. That's what was so great about Superman is that he was 'Super'! Now he's 'not-so-super-Superman'?

He already has bled, he's been beaten, and he's shown an indomitable will to win against overwhelming odds. He's even been nearly killed.

Personally, I think it's just lazy and unimaginative writers that can't write stories for him and decide to 'cheat' and make him more human and worse, take him back to square one so they can rewrite all the stories that have already been told! I dislike it when they do this to our most powerful and popular heroes.

While I love new ideas and concepts, I don't feel as if this is a new concept. I think I'll skip these books and wait till they bring back the real Superman.

On a side note, I also hate it when writers feel the need to put in excessive curse words, gore, and nudity in a book, saying that not allowing such vulgar things hinders their creativity and what not. If you need to put that vulgarity in your books to tell a story, you didn't have a strong story to begin with.


As a writer who uses a lot of curse words, I concur.

Duane Korslund
09-02-2011, 04:09 PM
Fuck an A

CHWolf
09-02-2011, 09:28 PM
Get back to me when they do anything new with the character.

ronin7
09-03-2011, 12:12 PM
You mean the critically acclaimed, sold out miniseries that won an Eisner? Is that the All Star Superman you mean?

:rolleyes:

Critically acclaimed by extremely biased comic book junkies who have no idea what they are talking about 98% of the time. The other 2% they spend bashing writers who have better ideas than the so-called legends like Moore and Morrison.

Allegory Comics
09-03-2011, 12:44 PM
Critically acclaimed by extremely biased comic book junkies who have no idea what they are talking about 98% of the time. The other 2% they spend bashing writers who have better ideas than the so-called legends like Moore and Morrison.
Good and bad are subjective things. Just because someone likes something doesn't mean you will, and just because you hate something doesn't mean it's bad. It's all just opinion. So I can't say it's good anymore than you can't say it's bad.

But I can say that a majority of professional critics and reviewers have praised the book; it sold very well; and it won 2 Eisners, 2 Harveys, 2 Eagle Awards, and it was on the Time Magazine list of the 10 best comics that year.

Those are not subjective terms. Those are facts. So maybe it was better than you think -- just not for you.

yellowphantom
09-03-2011, 08:59 PM
...i'm not sure about the not being able to fly yet part of the reboot, at the end of Flashpoint #3 Superman is clearly floating in mid air and then he takes off flying...maybe just a screw-up on Johns part.

Allegory Comics
09-03-2011, 09:08 PM
...i'm not sure about the not being able to fly yet part of the reboot, at the end of Flashpoint #3 Superman is clearly floating in mid air and then he takes off flying...maybe just a screw-up on Johns part.
And Lois Lane died in FLASHPOINT: SUPERMAN #3 ... but that is not the same Superman. That universe was destroyed at the end of FLASHPOINT. This is an entirely new universe, formed when Flash destroyed the Flashpoint Universe (and the standard DCU) by setting right the past.

Flashpoint Superman's story is not part of the DCnU Superman's story.

CHWolf
09-03-2011, 09:15 PM
And this is all to make the titles easier to understand, folks!

yellowphantom
09-03-2011, 09:15 PM
D'oh!!!! (lousy old brain)....:slap:

Allegory Comics
09-03-2011, 09:21 PM
And this is all to make the titles easier to understand, folks!
If you're following the story it makes sense. Well -- as much sense as any sci-fi/fantasy comic book superhero story, anyway.

If you want or need a backstory it's there, but you don't have to have it to understand the new universe at all. You can just pick up the new DCnU titles and start from #1 without having to know any backstory or why they reset the universe. Ultimately, it doesn't matter WHY or HOW, because none of that history matters anymore. This is a clean slate; a fresh start.

You could just throw away all of your old comics, including FLASHPOINT, and still be completely caught up when you read JL #1 or ACTION COMICS #1. I don't get what's so complicated about that.

:rolleyes:

CHWolf
09-03-2011, 09:23 PM
I'll bet a billion jillion dollars that at some point - maybe in the far future - the old continuity enters in the DCnU somehow.

It's inevitable.

ronin7
09-04-2011, 10:12 AM
Good and bad are subjective things. Just because someone likes something doesn't mean you will, and just because you hate something doesn't mean it's bad. It's all just opinion. So I can't say it's good anymore than you can't say it's bad.

But I can say that a majority of professional critics and reviewers have praised the book; it sold very well; and it won 2 Eisners, 2 Harveys, 2 Eagle Awards, and it was on the Time Magazine list of the 10 best comics that year.

Those are not subjective terms. Those are facts. So maybe it was better than you think -- just not for you.

The Eisners, Harveys and Eagle awards are just popularity contests. I couldn't give a fuck who won either. And Time Magazine is just trying to be hip and kewl by making a meager attempt at finding what is the most hyped beyond common sense comic. Like I said, ASS was purely ASS.

galmando
09-04-2011, 01:59 PM
I'll be a billion jillion dollars that at some point - maybe in the far future - the old continuity enters in the DCnU somehow.

It's inevitable.

i dont know muh about al lof this restart stuff, i've picked up new from here and there, but what you're saying makes sense

doesn't DC have this multi-verse thing that has all the alternate stories or characters existing in their own universes?

CHWolf
09-04-2011, 03:37 PM
All I know is that the second someone thinks it might boost sales, "DCnU Superman" will get into a brawl with "oDCU" Superman. The "O" for "Original"... though it should be Post-Crisis, which would be "PCDCU"...

Allegory Comics
09-04-2011, 03:53 PM
I would not be one bit surprised if pieces of that world began to appear in this one from time to time. The same way they did with Batman Beyond and Kingdom Come and Earth-2. I'm sure it will happen. But so what? I enjoyed those stories with Batman Beyond and Kingdom Come, and I'll probably enjoy stories mashing the old DC with the new.

The bigger question for me is: how long before DC totally ditches the DCnU and goes back to the old universe again?

I don't think they have any intention of that right now, but sales will be the deciding factor. So far sales have been better than DC has seen in a long, long time. That's good, but is it transient? They're all buying #1, but what about #2? What will happen after the first story arc ends? Will new readers stick around? Some will, I'm sure, but will there be enough of them?

And if, say 5-years from now, sales have settled and DC doesn't think it's working anymore, I could absolutely see them reverting back to the old unvierse. At the very least, I think they will defintely go back to the old numbering on some titles. Action Comics is only 96 issues away from a landmark #1000 and you can bet DC isn't going to let that go uncelebrated.

So brief visits and crossovers aside -- will the old universe ever be back for good? I don't know. Maybe. But for right now, at least, I think DC has every intention of keeping this universe.

UniverseX259
09-04-2011, 04:02 PM
I'll bet a billion jillion dollars that at some point - maybe in the far future - the old continuity enters in the DCnU somehow.

It's inevitable.

Absolutely agreed. Any big event the Big 2 do are to try and boost sales, and what better way to boost sales than to have 52 #1 issues and new continuities for all the characters? But if these stories aren't a hit, they'll have to change up the status quo again - There's no point in keeping this incarnation of the DCU if the books don't sell at all.

I can also see this reboot being really confusing for new comic buyers or people who haven't bought comics in years (Which is what I'm assuming this is, having a clean slate so new readers can jump on). But I can also see the new readers getting confused or giving up fairly quickly. "I thought Superman could fly? Weren't his parents alive? I thought Perry White was Clark's boss! This is too confusing, I give up!"

CHWolf
09-04-2011, 05:08 PM
Simplification fail.

The best way to reboot the DCU *if the goal is to gain new readers* would have been to simply...

1.) Restart at issue #1
2.) Proceed with the existing characters intact.
3.) Tell self-contained one or (at most) two issue storylines.
4.) Never refer to events prior to the reboot, save for character origins.

Nobody's pissed, nobody's lost.

Simple.

Allegory Comics
09-04-2011, 05:15 PM
I don't think they're doing anything different now than they did with the Crisis reboot in the 80s.

They had a universe, a major event, and a cataclysm that gave birth to a new unvierse with a new, updated heroes for a modern world. It's exactly the same formula.

Hell, they didn't even bother to change numbers in the Crisis reboot. Action Comics, Detective and Batman kept the same numbering, but one month just switched to Post Crisis unvierse without any explanation to readers -- so if they were new readers or if they weren't following the Crisis events they wouldn't know why or how they wound up in this new universe. But everyone seemed to understand just fine.

And of your 4 point ideals, they've mostly done two of them (#1 and #4) -- and I'm not lost at all.

I don't think anyone who has been reading the story is lost, and I don't think new readers will be terribly lost either, as this is all new with no real backstory to understand beyond JUSTICE LEAGUE #1 last week. The only people who are lost are the ones who did not read the back stories and are now trying to figure out what/why/how this is happening -- but instead of reading the comics, they're looking for cliff notes from news postings, reviews, and message board chatter. If you're confused or lost, go to the source, read and it and see if it makes any more sense then. I think you're just making it more complicated than it is, or needs to be.

Yes, there are tons of problems with the premise of the Flash changing time and creating a new unvierse, but it's your typical sci-fi fantasy comic book story. You want an exact science, go read Stephen Hawking.

CHWolf
09-04-2011, 05:38 PM
And of your 4 point ideals, they've mostly done two of them (#1 and #4) -- and I'm not lost at all.

Well yeah, but the whole point of the other things on the list (and not including some of the things they did do...) was to point out that trying to gain new readers without confusing them and losing old readers would have been simpler.

ronin7
09-04-2011, 08:40 PM
I don't think they're doing anything different now than they did with the Crisis reboot in the 80s.

They had a universe, a major event, and a cataclysm that gave birth to a new unvierse with a new, updated heroes for a modern world. It's exactly the same formula.

Hell, they didn't even bother to change numbers in the Crisis reboot. Action Comics, Detective and Batman kept the same numbering, but one month just switched to Post Crisis unvierse without any explanation to readers -- so if they were new readers or if they weren't following the Crisis events they wouldn't know why or how they wound up in this new universe. But everyone seemed to understand just fine.

And of your 4 point ideals, they've mostly done two of them (#1 and #4) -- and I'm not lost at all.

I don't think anyone who has been reading the story is lost, and I don't think new readers will be terribly lost either, as this is all new with no real backstory to understand beyond JUSTICE LEAGUE #1 last week. The only people who are lost are the ones who did not read the back stories and are now trying to figure out what/why/how this is happening -- but instead of reading the comics, they're looking for cliff notes from news postings, reviews, and message board chatter. If you're confused or lost, go to the source, read and it and see if it makes any more sense then. I think you're just making it more complicated than it is, or needs to be.

Yes, there are tons of problems with the premise of the Flash changing time and creating a new unvierse, but it's your typical sci-fi fantasy comic book story. You want an exact science, go read Stephen Hawking.

Wrong, both MOS and Year One retold the origins of both characters and brought them up to speed in the new universe. They also ret-conned the cheesy elements from the Pre-Crisis era like Krypto, Superboy, the Fortress of Solitude, etc. There was hardly anything left of the old universe.

ronin7
09-04-2011, 08:44 PM
I don't think they're doing anything different now than they did with the Crisis reboot in the 80s.

They had a universe, a major event, and a cataclysm that gave birth to a new unvierse with a new, updated heroes for a modern world. It's exactly the same formula.

Hell, they didn't even bother to change numbers in the Crisis reboot. Action Comics, Detective and Batman kept the same numbering, but one month just switched to Post Crisis unvierse without any explanation to readers -- so if they were new readers or if they weren't following the Crisis events they wouldn't know why or how they wound up in this new universe. But everyone seemed to understand just fine.

And of your 4 point ideals, they've mostly done two of them (#1 and #4) -- and I'm not lost at all.

I don't think anyone who has been reading the story is lost, and I don't think new readers will be terribly lost either, as this is all new with no real backstory to understand beyond JUSTICE LEAGUE #1 last week. The only people who are lost are the ones who did not read the back stories and are now trying to figure out what/why/how this is happening -- but instead of reading the comics, they're looking for cliff notes from news postings, reviews, and message board chatter. If you're confused or lost, go to the source, read and it and see if it makes any more sense then. I think you're just making it more complicated than it is, or needs to be.

Yes, there are tons of problems with the premise of the Flash changing time and creating a new unvierse, but it's your typical sci-fi fantasy comic book story. You want an exact science, go read Stephen Hawking.

Point two, science fiction has facts based science that is theoretical, but COULD potentially happen. Look at what was contained in Ender's Game, and some of that shit is happened already. Look at Star Trek, already scientists oversees say they are close to developing technology almost identical to tri-corders. Science fiction isn't completely made up bullshit by moronic writers who don't read science fiction novels and understand the genre at all.

Allegory Comics
09-04-2011, 09:56 PM
Wrong, both MOS and Year One retold the origins of both characters and brought them up to speed in the new universe.
The point was, those monthly titles went from one universe one month to the new universe the very next with no explanation for "confused" readers or change in numbering. MAN OF STEEL was a self-contained miniseries and not part of the monthly books; just like FLASHPOINT -- which set up this new universe. So again, I really don't see how this is any different from the Crisis reboot.
Point two, science fiction has facts based science that is theoretical, but COULD potentially happen. Look at what was contained in Ender's Game, and some of that shit is happened already. Look at Star Trek, already scientists oversees say they are close to developing technology almost identical to tri-corders. Science fiction isn't completely made up bullshit by moronic writers who don't read science fiction novels and understand the genre at all.
If we're going to start arguing the plausibility of theoretical science in fiction storytelling, we're going to be a very long time debating the merits of Star Trek time travel science versus Doctor Who time travel science. No thanks. Some of this stuff might be possible someday, but for now it isn't. And I'll agree that it should be somewhat believable (remember Marvel's lazy excuse: "It's magic, it doesn't have make sense"?) but I don't think anything they did was so crazy or out of the acceptable realm of sci-fi and fantasy.

It seemed just fine for sci-fi/fantasy comic book standard to me. We all draw our lines in the sand somewhere, and this did not cross mine.

ronin3567
10-01-2011, 02:54 PM
I had a theory that if Superman represents America, and Superman is much weaker now that America is weaker as a country. The armor represents the emotional armor that all Americans must wear.

ronin7
10-01-2011, 05:05 PM
The point was, those monthly titles went from one universe one month to the new universe the very next with no explanation for "confused" readers or change in numbering. MAN OF STEEL was a self-contained miniseries and not part of the monthly books; just like FLASHPOINT -- which set up this new universe. So again, I really don't see how this is any different from the Crisis reboot.

If we're going to start arguing the plausibility of theoretical science in fiction storytelling, we're going to be a very long time debating the merits of Star Trek time travel science versus Doctor Who time travel science. No thanks. Some of this stuff might be possible someday, but for now it isn't. And I'll agree that it should be somewhat believable (remember Marvel's lazy excuse: "It's magic, it doesn't have make sense"?) but I don't think anything they did was so crazy or out of the acceptable realm of sci-fi and fantasy.

It seemed just fine for sci-fi/fantasy comic book standard to me. We all draw our lines in the sand somewhere, and this did not cross mine.

You'd lose. Scientists have already proven some of the technology from Star Trek is possible. Faster than light particles, a close step to a tricorder. Even Nikola Telsa discovered similar ideas which I imagine inspired Rodenberry's Star Trek. They have also are developing a solution to heal all sorts of injuries with extra cellular matter from pigs. Even some things from Orson Scott Card's works have been showing up. Like the current economic climate, and some of the tech from Ender's Game.

Grant does no research on any of this like sci-fi and fantasy writers do. He just makes shit up and everyone proclaims him genius when he's more of village idiot when it comes to science fiction.

jeffo46
10-02-2011, 05:56 PM
I started reading comic books in 1966 at the age of 7. What got me hooked, was the Batman TV show and at that time, my mom would take me to the local drug store and let me buy Batman, Detective Comics, JLA, Inferior Five, Showcase, etc. Now at the age of 52, because of DC throwing away over 74 years of continuity, I am done reading comic books. Thank you Jim Lee and whoever else is in charge at DC for shitting on the fans just to appease your massive egos. :slap:

Allegory Comics
10-02-2011, 11:10 PM
Now at the age of 52, because of DC throwing away over 74 years of continuity, I am done reading comic books. Thank you Jim Lee and whoever else is in charge at DC for shitting on the fans just to appease your massive egos. :slap:
74 years? :huh:

DC rebooted just like this in CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS in 1986 and erased all of its pre-crisis history. Then they did another reboot (that changed very little, actually) with ZERO HOUR in 1994. And in just the last 5 years, they've had universe-wide changes and updates in INFINITE CRISIS, 52, EARTH ONE, and ALL STAR reboots. At the very most, this is only erasing 25 years history (going back to the 86 reboot) ... not even close to 74 years of continuity.

And it isn't even erasing all that much, really. Most of the major events of the old DCU are still being tied to the DCnU.

ronin7
10-03-2011, 10:08 AM
I started reading comic books in 1966 at the age of 7. What got me hooked, was the Batman TV show and at that time, my mom would take me to the local drug store and let me buy Batman, Detective Comics, JLA, Inferior Five, Showcase, etc. Now at the age of 52, because of DC throwing away over 74 years of continuity, I am done reading comic books. Thank you Jim Lee and whoever else is in charge at DC for shitting on the fans just to appease your massive egos. :slap:


Lee/Didio - shitting on fans, retailers, and potential new readers since 2005.

Allegory Comics
10-03-2011, 11:03 AM
Lee/Didio - shitting on fans, retailers, and potential new readers since 2005.
I'm sure there are some fans who aren't happy. That much is clear. But I'm a 20-year fan, and I like the DCnU so far. And lots of other longtime readers (most of the ones I've talked to or read online) seem to be coming around too. You'll never please everyone, but I think a lot more people are enjoying the DCnU than thought they would.

As for new readers ... well, the books are so far selling out at the comic shops within a matter of hours, and moving 4 and 5 times the number of copies they were selling 3 months ago. They're on 2nd and 3rd printings already. That tells me new readers aren't really that upset either. In fact, they're running to the shops!

And with new readers and a MASSIVE increase in sales (so far), retailers have been very happy from what I'm reading also.

So aside from a minority group of longtime readers who are upset with the changes for one reason or another, I don't know who they're "pissing off". Because overall sales and reviews are evident that this has been a major success for DC. In fact, I think I read a story somewhere online that said the DCnU is helping raise comic sales across the board for all publishers as new readers hit the shop and find other books to read.

That doesn't mean you have to, or should, like it. But you can't deny its success.

Jason Powell
10-03-2011, 11:17 AM
Just give it time and it will all revert back the way it was with a few minor changes. I really hope they will keep Red Robin the way he is but as far as the rest, eeeee....:confused:

I am sure there will be more but we will see.

-Jason

ronin7
10-03-2011, 12:54 PM
I'm sure there are some fans who aren't happy. That much is clear. But I'm a 20-year fan, and I like the DCnU so far. And lots of other longtime readers (most of the ones I've talked to or read online) seem to be coming around too. You'll never please everyone, but I think a lot more people are enjoying the DCnU than thought they would.

As for new readers ... well, the books are so far selling out at the comic shops within a matter of hours, and moving 4 and 5 times the number of copies they were selling 3 months ago. They're on 2nd and 3rd printings already. That tells me new readers aren't really that upset either. In fact, they're running to the shops!

And with new readers and a MASSIVE increase in sales (so far), retailers have been very happy from what I'm reading also.

So aside from a minority group of longtime readers who are upset with the changes for one reason or another, I don't know who they're "pissing off". Because overall sales and reviews are evident that this has been a major success for DC. In fact, I think I read a story somewhere online that said the DCnU is helping raise comic sales across the board for all publishers as new readers hit the shop and find other books to read.

That doesn't mean you have to, or should, like it. But you can't deny its success.

Not everyone is certain that the sales are what DC claims they are. We mostly hear from big comic chains about sales, but none of the smaller independent stores. Which shows the first of many bad signs. Jim Lee is an idiot. Him and the other Image guys think that the speculative wave that hit the 90's was the best thing to happen to comics, when a large percentage of those comics were trash, the artwork was sloppy, and considerably less people were buying. This Image, Marvel, and DC knew - they didn't care and a lot of smaller publishers paid for the Big Three's greed scheme.

That's all this is. Trying to replicate the speculative wave. When people wise up, the industry will be practically anemic.

Allegory Comics
10-03-2011, 01:21 PM
Not everyone is certain that the sales are what DC claims they are. We mostly hear from big comic chains about sales, but none of the smaller independent stores. Which shows the first of many bad signs. Jim Lee is an idiot. Him and the other Image guys think that the speculative wave that hit the 90's was the best thing to happen to comics, when a large percentage of those comics were trash, the artwork was sloppy, and considerably less people were buying. This Image, Marvel, and DC knew - they didn't care and a lot of smaller publishers paid for the Big Three's greed scheme.

That's all this is. Trying to replicate the speculative wave. When people wise up, the industry will be practically anemic.
You think DC Comics is lying about sales? You do know that DC is owned by Time-Warner, right? And TW is a publicly traded international corporation, and publicly lying about their product sales is a major violation of the Securities and Exchange Commission (because it could intentionally boost stock prices based on false sales data), which could result in fines, sanctions, jailtime or even shutting down.

So that's your argument, right? That DC Comics is purposefully committing stock fraud to get you to buy copies of HAWK & DOVE.

And since you say you haven't heard from any small, indpendent local shops, let me just tell you what I see in MY small, independent local comic book shop: they are selling out there faster than they can put them on the shelves. The owner tells me they aren't re-ordering fast enough, and they tell me they have seen new readers in the shop. My shop owner is also a big Superman fan, and he tells me that he is enjoying the DCnU as both a reader and a retailer. Obviously, I can't speak for every small comic book shop, but this report seems consistant with reports we're getting from other shops, fans, and DC Comics, themselves (oh, wait ... they're lying, right?).

ronin7
10-03-2011, 02:50 PM
You think DC Comics is lying about sales? You do know that DC is owned by Time-Warner, right? And TW is a publicly traded international corporation, and publicly lying about their product sales is a major violation of the Securities and Exchange Commission (because it could intentionally boost stock prices based on false sales data), which could result in fines, sanctions, jailtime or even shutting down.

So that's your argument, right? That DC Comics is purposefully committing stock fraud to get you to buy copies of HAWK & DOVE.

And since you say you haven't heard from any small, indpendent local shops, let me just tell you what I see in MY small, independent local comic book shop: they are selling out there faster than they can put them on the shelves. The owner tells me they aren't re-ordering fast enough, and they tell me they have seen new readers in the shop. My shop owner is also a big Superman fan, and he tells me that he is enjoying the DCnU as both a reader and a retailer. Obviously, I can't speak for every small comic book shop, but this report seems consistant with reports we're getting from other shops, fans, and DC Comics, themselves (oh, wait ... they're lying, right?).


You do realize our government has not only turned their backs on fraud in this country, but they are whole sale supporting it right? If not, you might want to count how much money is being stolen from your salary to put some fat-ass corporate employ a hot tub he doesn't even need. So, no it doesn't seem unbelievable that DC would commit mass fraud to create a speculative wave. Especially since we only hear from retailers that the Big Three have close association with, and no other shop.

Allegory Comics
10-03-2011, 03:02 PM
You do realize our government has not only turned their backs on fraud in this country, but they are whole sale supporting it right? If not, you might want to count how much money is being stolen from your salary to put some fat-ass corporate employ a hot tub he doesn't even need. So, no it doesn't seem unbelievable that DC would commit mass fraud to create a speculative wave. Especially since we only hear from retailers that the Big Three have close association with, and no other shop.
So now the US government is conspiring with DC Comics?

LOL, this just keeps getting better. :laugh:

Mwynn
10-03-2011, 03:05 PM
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dc-new-52-one-month-retailer-analysis-111003.html

Newsarama: With a month or sales under your belt, what do you think DC did right with the New 52?

Matt Price, owner of Speeding Bullet Comics in Norman, Okla.: The promotion was great, the TV advertising really seemed to work. The returnability/additional discount options were good, though I don't think very many retailers found the ceiling in month 1.

John Robinson, co-owner of nine locations for Graham Cracker Comics in Chicago: The promotion arm of DC did a great job getting the word out there. Amazing. DC's support via incentive/discount/returnability was also above and beyond its distinguished competition's efforts. Well done! The titles that were a fresh start were great.


ENLARGE

Books tied in together beautifully, and for the most part felt like a cohesive universe. I also like that they brought back editor notes in books (* see Detective Comics #1 for what Gordon is talking about), which had been all but abandoned, as a way for cross promotion within titles. Glad to see it back!

Ralph DiBernardo, owner of Jetpack Comics in Rochester, N.H.

DC gave us a universe that you do not need back-story to understand. They gave us a universe that is easily accessible. They gave us a universe that is modernized. I think DC gave us their characters in our world.

DC brought on new, hot talent and let them create something wonderful.

DC got the retailers behind the idea and promoted the hell out of it.

Overall, DC did one hell of a job of taking almost everything that readers have complained about for years and making it better. I feel like DC spent a lot of time working on this.

Cliff Biggers, owner of Dr. No's Comics & Games Superstore in Marietta, Ga.: They delivered distinctive, well-crafted stories. The superhero books weren't generic "The Adventures of (Insert Character Name Here)" stories; they conveyed something unique about the character or characters. Not every book clicked with every customer, of course -- we all have favorites -- but the end result was that a record number of customers were convinced that they needed to try a significantly large sampling of New 52 titles that we set sales records.

Jason Pierce, owner of Alter Ego Comics in Muncie, Ind.: I think DC has a great idea going on. It really has seemed to energize the industry right now. I am extremely pleased to hear how many people came in the store to get comics because they saw a commercial on Cartoon Network or Spike or whatever! They saw a comic book commercial! That is huge! DC is actually reaching out and getting the attention of non-readers instead of staying with their own little circle and grandstanding to fanboys. It remains to be seen if the heat will continue in the coming months, but good for them for shaking things up.

Adam Casey, manager of Ssalefish Comics in Winston-Salem, N.C.: What DC did right with the New 52 is what they excel at: mythology building. They fleshed out a world that was instantly familiar to long-time readers but also possessed some new twists and turns. The immersion in the world was done well enough that many new readers are coming back looking for other issues or books that might help fill in the gaps and tell them a little bit more about some of the characters they've discovered during the New 52.

Mwynn
10-03-2011, 03:09 PM
So now the US government is conspiring with DC Comics?

LOL, this just keeps getting better. :laugh:

The government has also brainwashed people into buying and enjoying these books.

Evan Henry
10-03-2011, 03:25 PM
You think DC Comics is lying about sales? You do know that DC is owned by Time-Warner, right? And TW is a publicly traded international corporation, and publicly lying about their product sales is a major violation of the Securities and Exchange Commission (because it could intentionally boost stock prices based on false sales data), which could result in fines, sanctions, jailtime or even shutting down.

So that's your argument, right? That DC Comics is purposefully committing stock fraud to get you to buy copies of HAWK & DOVE.

And since you say you haven't heard from any small, indpendent local shops, let me just tell you what I see in MY small, independent local comic book shop: they are selling out there faster than they can put them on the shelves. The owner tells me they aren't re-ordering fast enough, and they tell me they have seen new readers in the shop. My shop owner is also a big Superman fan, and he tells me that he is enjoying the DCnU as both a reader and a retailer. Obviously, I can't speak for every small comic book shop, but this report seems consistant with reports we're getting from other shops, fans, and DC Comics, themselves (oh, wait ... they're lying, right?).

I like this post. And anyway it's not DC that is reporting the sales numbers -- it's Diamond. At every shop I've been to since the launch, I've been told by the staff that these things are selling like sexy hotcakes, and I've seen the evidence (entire walls denuded of New 52 comics) for myself.

ronin7
10-03-2011, 04:08 PM
So now the US government is conspiring with DC Comics?

LOL, this just keeps getting better. :laugh:

Thanks for making a case of our how poor our education system is. You have such poor reading comprehension, you can't see anything that is obvious.

Allegory Comics
10-03-2011, 04:27 PM
Thanks for making a case of our how poor our education system is. You have such poor reading comprehension, you can't see anything that is obvious.
You are the best kind of debate. You make an ignorant statement based on feeling and not facts. Then someone presents you with imperical facts to counter your ill-informed position, and you sidestep it entirely -- sticking to your crazy comments and reverting to insults to avoid actually talking about the FACTS because there you are clearly getting losing the battle.

Y'know, if you had just said, "Sales suggest that this has been a big success for DC Comics, but I personally don't like the idea or the creators and I won't waste my time or money," then I would have had no argument at all and would have respected your honesty. But instead you say stupid things like "it doesn't seem unbelievable that DC would commit mass (securities) fraud to create a speculative wave" and "You do realize our government has not only turned their backs on fraud in this country, but they are whole sale supporting it right?" and you're always insulting people, and you basically said that fans are all stupid for liking Morrison, Lee, Geoff Johns or Alan Moore; and professional reviewers are just kissing their butts -- because clearly other people ... "don't have (your) understanding of such concepts, or even writing ability ..."

Oh, how I wish we could all be as smart and sophisticated a reader as you, great Ronin7. Thank you for blessing us with your presence; how else would we know how stupid we is?

Evan Henry
10-03-2011, 05:09 PM
professional reviewers are just kissing their butts

Hey... you talkin' 'bout me? :sure:

ronin7
10-03-2011, 07:54 PM
You are the best kind of debate. You make an ignorant statement based on feeling and not facts. Then someone presents you with imperical facts to counter your ill-informed position, and you sidestep it entirely -- sticking to your crazy comments and reverting to insults to avoid actually talking about the FACTS because there you are clearly getting losing the battle.

Y'know, if you had just said, "Sales suggest that this has been a big success for DC Comics, but I personally don't like the idea or the creators and I won't waste my time or money," then I would have had no argument at all and would have respected your honesty. But instead you say stupid things like "it doesn't seem unbelievable that DC would commit mass (securities) fraud to create a speculative wave" and "You do realize our government has not only turned their backs on fraud in this country, but they are whole sale supporting it right?" and you're always insulting people, and you basically said that fans are all stupid for liking Morrison, Lee, Geoff Johns or Alan Moore; and professional reviewers are just kissing their butts -- because clearly other people ... "don't have (your) understanding of such concepts, or even writing ability ..."

Oh, how I wish we could all be as smart and sophisticated a reader as you, great Ronin7. Thank you for blessing us with your presence; how else would we know how stupid we is?

You have no imperical evidence to support otherwise. Low overprints to make the comics seem valuable to witless speculators, returnable incentives to make it where retailers take a big chance on ordering crap, now watch -- that return ability will vanish quickly and retailers will find they fubured and are stuck with a load of stuck that isn't worth the paper its printed on. DC did it in the past, Marvel did it recently with the Death Of Captain America, and you being so cosmically "naive" to think they wouldn't do it again to fatten their pockets and make everyone they are concerned with rich(er). Why do you think the Image guys are practically in charge at DC? Why do you think they are using so many unproven artists, and artists who haven't shown any writing ability? It's the Image wave all over again. Jim and Hackfield will walk off with a ton of money, as will Johns, and everyone in on it. Everyone else in the medium will be fucked again. None of the Image guys, nor Didio care about the rest of the industry and the jobs of so many creators.

Not to mention the unproven talent will get fucked over by next crash of the industry because they'll be blacked marked by the whole speculative scam.

Allegory Comics
10-03-2011, 08:31 PM
You have no imperical evidence to support otherwise.
Reported sales figures in the six figures.
Critical reviews.
Fan reviews.
Comic shops reporting increased sales and an influx of new readers.
2nd and 3rd printings

These are facts.
Jim Lee is an idiot.
This is not.

Biofungus
10-03-2011, 08:48 PM
Newsarama needs to stop. Seriously, they're just giving into the hype. The sales of the first issues are by no means a gauge of "what DC did right". Not by a long shot.

Others may disagree, but I feel that about 80% of those number 1 issues were very poorly written.

Mwynn
10-03-2011, 08:57 PM
. Seriously, they're just giving into the hype. The sales of the first issues are by no means a gauge of "what DC did right". Not by a long shot.



Read the whole article.

CHWolf
10-03-2011, 09:24 PM
It always makes me giggle when people rush to the defence of giant companies, as if someone else's opinion or view of the facts related to a corporation needs dismissing.

Evan Henry
10-03-2011, 09:39 PM
There are no "speculators". That species went extinct a decade ago. Now there's only rabid fanboys who are too obsessed to turn down every issue branded with the name of the latest crossover, or the $25 cover of Thor listening to an iPod. Then there's the normal people. Those are going extinct too, though.

The superhero genre is dying mostly because of idiotic fans rewarding -- no, demanding -- recycled crap stories that we've seen eleven times before. People like Bendis and (to a lesser extent) Johns being put in charge of entire universes is suffocating creativity and bleeding dry what little originality the industry has left. The Big Two are dying and they -- and their less discriminating fans -- deserve every whimpering, pathetic second of it. The New 52 is only a feeding tube for the guy with the exploded hollow-point in his skull.

ronin7
10-04-2011, 09:11 AM
Reported sales figures in the six figures.
Critical reviews.
Fan reviews.
Comic shops reporting increased sales and an influx of new readers.
2nd and 3rd printings

These are facts.

This is not.



Reported sales figures. Do you know for a single fact that each and every issue around the country sold out at the retailer level? And really when have Internet fan/critic reviews ever reflected what everyone felt?

It's not uncommon that the Publishers go through second and third printings to get more money when demand isn't too high. Remember, Diamond is buying all the comics with retailer money and flooding them into the shops whether or not demand is high.

Allegory Comics
10-04-2011, 10:20 AM
Reported sales figures. Do you know for a single fact that each and every issue around the country sold out at the retailer level?
I never said they sold out at the retail level (even though we have many reports from shops that they are). All I said was they had incredibly high sales numbers and have reportedly sold out at Diamond, and you can bet the retailers wouldn't be reordering so high if they weren't selling in the shops. But, wait, I forgot ... DC Comics is committing Securities Fraud and lying about their sales. :laugh:

I do believe a large portion of the initial sales was media driven, and the big mark will be 6-12 months from now. But when you consider the positive response from fans, shops and critics, it seems likely they'll stay higher than they were before the reboot for a while (but there is no way it can keep up this volume).

That brings me to your second question ...
And really when have Internet fan/critic reviews ever reflected what everyone felt?
Opinions ebb and flow, but when so many people swing one way or the other, it means something.

PC812
10-04-2011, 10:34 AM
It's fairly obvious that DC is doing really well for themselves. And they are making a lot of smart moves with advertising and same-day digital releases. As far as the quality of the books? That's really subjective. I've read some books I loved and will continue to check out (Batman, Batgirl, Action Comics), some that were kind of so-so (Justice League), and some that I have been completely turned off of (Red Hood and the Outlaws, Catwoman).

Will the momentum last? Probably not. This is the new, big thing and that's why it's so popular right now. But I don't think it'll last.

ronin7
10-04-2011, 11:46 AM
I never said they sold out at the retail level (even though we have many reports from shops that they are). All I said was they had incredibly high sales numbers and have reportedly sold out at Diamond, and you can bet the retailers wouldn't be reordering so high if they weren't selling in the shops. But, wait, I forgot ... DC Comics is committing Securities Fraud and lying about their sales. :laugh:

I do believe a large portion of the initial sales was media driven, and the big mark will be 6-12 months from now. But when you consider the positive response from fans, shops and critics, it seems likely they'll stay higher than they were before the reboot for a while (but there is no way it can keep up this volume).

That brings me to your second question ...

Opinions ebb and flow, but when so many people swing one way or the other, it means something.

They have only interviewed the same comic shops over and over again. Midtown comics, Sssalesfish comics, the one in Arizona. The big chain stores. We haven't heard word of how they are doing in small, independent comic shops.

And if comic critics/online fans opinion meant a damn, Bendis would be a shoe salesman, Alan Moore would have multiple hugos under his belt instead of just one, and Joe Casey would be the biggest comic writer in the biz.

Laugh all you want, but a lot of corporations have lied - Wall Street included. Only a fool would believe otherwise.

Evan Henry
10-04-2011, 04:40 PM
Sssalesfish comics

They're the guys that are closed on Monday, "for sleep". Used to live there, and they had the best selection of new stuff I've ever seen. They're not a chain though, are they? :huh:

Anyway, I'm leaving before this thread becomes a long, drawn-out way of one group of people saying "Geoff Johns is stupid" and the others saying "Bendis is stupid".

Have a nice day. :laugh: