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Paul Sanderson
07-20-2010, 10:03 PM
This sounds like just the sort of dreck I was dreading:

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/2010-post-crisis-reviews/c-review-2010.php?topic=sup701

Allegory Comics
07-20-2010, 10:07 PM
Yeah, check out my question to Superman Editor Matt Idelson also posted today on the Web site ...
Ryan (Email address withheld by request) asks:
So after fans rocketed away from the books like they were on the last ship off Krypton, DC's big plan to win them back is by sending Superman on a year-long walking tour of the U.S.? How much is Marvel Comics paying you guys to sabotage the books? Hiring a well-known writer is a step in the right direction and I think this could be a good story, but why not make it a separate mini and use the monthlies to get the character back to ACTION? I'm about to go on my own walking tour.

Matt: I'll admit the timing of this could be better, Ryan, what with Supes being out of SUPERMAN and ACTION for so long, but the opportunity to tell the "Grounded" story was just too compelling, and the opening it created in ACTION has, in my opinion, yielded what's already a terrifically cool story in ACTION, too. I sure hope you won't take a flyer on these two books, since they're really doing something different and exciting, and will ultimately dovetail back together once the respective arcs are over.


http://www.supermanhomepage.com/inter-action/inter-action.php?topic=ask-editor/ask-matt

Paul Sanderson
07-20-2010, 10:16 PM
That answer gives me no confidence whatsoever (good question though, Ryan). We've seen this story arc been done time and time again. That would be fine if they didn't keep telling us how everything is different and exciting and unique and blah blah blah blah :man: No thanks.

Aaron Wilder
07-20-2010, 10:31 PM
Well, if I had carte blanche on Superman for a year, I'd send him on a military tour of the world. If you want to send him out of Metropolis, for pete's sake send him somewhere that Superman is actually needed that police couldn't handle themselves. He's not PREZ for crying out loud.

I'd haveClark Kent enlist Elvis-style and send him into a combat situation. See how long he can keep up the charade of not being Superman, and deal with military honor when his fellow soldiers realize who he is and DON'T out him to the press. This would set up storylines with the military going to Supes and saying, "we know who you are so maybe you should help out". Fits continuity because if Dark Knight Returns is the future of DC, you've got to tie the big guy to the powers that be eventually anyway, right? Luthor as president doesn't really do it. You'd think Pa Kent would've taught his boy something about duty and patriotism...

And since when do heroes not serve in the military? I guess it's honorable for the greatest pure hitter in baseball history to do it, but not Superman?

Allegory Comics
07-20-2010, 10:52 PM
Well, if I had carte blanche on Superman for a year, I'd send him on a military tour of the world. If you want to send him out of Metropolis, for pete's sake send him somewhere that Superman is actually needed that police couldn't handle themselves. He's not PREZ for crying out loud.

I'd haveClark Kent enlist Elvis-style and send him into a combat situation. See how long he can keep up the charade of not being Superman, and deal with military honor when his fellow soldiers realize who he is and DON'T out him to the press. This would set up storylines with the military going to Supes and saying, "we know who you are so maybe you should help out". Fits continuity because if Dark Knight Returns is the future of DC, you've got to tie the big guy to the powers that be eventually anyway, right? Luthor as president doesn't really do it. You'd think Pa Kent would've taught his boy something about duty and patriotism...

And since when do heroes not serve in the military? I guess it's honorable for the greatest pure hitter in baseball history to do it, but not Superman?
You should probably check out PEACE ON EARTH.

http://www.supermanartists.comics.org/dchistory/Superman-PeaceOnEarth.jpg

It's not military, perse, but it does examine what happens when Superman sets his mind to REAL issues -- to end world hunger. He comes up against real world challenges of international politics, war zones, underdeveloped nations, starving children, and other issues that our men and women in service fight everyday. It's a very poignant look at the role of superheroes in a modern global society.

Lovecraft13
07-21-2010, 12:00 AM
The last thing I wanna see Superman do is walk and talk for 12-months. If I wanted to read about someone ordering a sandwich, I'd read a food blog for free.

tbrotomo
07-21-2010, 01:02 AM
I enjoyed the first issue. It was nice in the regard that you could pick it up, know who superman is, read it, and don't have to read 700 issues of backstory to understand the one issue or finish one story, which is a rarity in comics these days.

It was a good story too, you really got to see the little problems. JMS made a great point that when you see extraordinary 100% of the time, nothing seems extraordinary. So crafting a good story involves keeping enough ordinary that when the extraordinary happens, it really lifts up the tension level.

This was nice, gave us a deeper and more thoughtful Superman than I've seen a lot of the time, and it was a good set up.

As an introduction issue, I think 701 did great. And that's what it was intended to be.

ponyrl
07-21-2010, 03:07 AM
You know, I've read quite a few supes stories, alot of elseworlds supes, ross' supes, and for the life of me, the regular series supes by himself, just bores the hell out of me.

Aaron Wilder
07-21-2010, 03:20 AM
You know, I've read quite a few supes stories, alot of elseworlds supes, ross' supes, and for the life of me, the regular series supes by himself, just bores the hell out of me.

It's the same for me. Superman needs some kind of foil to work in my opinion, which is why JLA Superman works but Superman solo doesn't. Superman played off of Batman? Great. Superman played off of his mostly vanilla supporting cast? Not so great.

Paul Sanderson
07-21-2010, 03:43 AM
Solo Superman can work well, it just needs the right person with the right sensibilities to make it work. It's happened in the past, after all. JMS just isn't that person, pure and simple.

ronin7
07-21-2010, 07:19 AM
Solo Superman can work well, it just needs the right person with the right sensibilities to make it work. It's happened in the past, after all. JMS just isn't that person, pure and simple.


I disagree. With the dreck that was New Krypton, Superman needs to reacquint himself with humanity. A lot of people would be questioning his loyality. Not every story has to be smash and bash action.

Allegory Comics
07-21-2010, 08:22 AM
It's the same for me. Superman needs some kind of foil to work in my opinion, which is why JLA Superman works but Superman solo doesn't. Superman played off of Batman? Great. Superman played off of his mostly vanilla supporting cast? Not so great.
Ideally, Lex is Superman's foil.

Before Superman came along, everyone loved Lex. In some stories they still love him, because they don't know the Lex that Superman knows. Lex has helped rebuild Metropolis many times; he employs 2/3 of the city; and the people elected him President. They don't know how dirty his hands really are.

That's why he hates Superman so much -- because he stole the people's love and idolation from him. They love Superman now more than they love Lex.

Lex has good intentions and sees himself as a hero, but his methods make him a sociopath.

ronin7
07-21-2010, 11:39 AM
Ideally, Lex is Superman's foil.

Before Superman came along, everyone loved Lex. In some stories they still love him, because they don't know the Lex that Superman knows. Lex has helped rebuild Metropolis many times; he employs 2/3 of the city; and the people elected him President. They don't know how dirty his hands really are.

That's why he hates Superman so much -- because he stole the people's love and idolation from him. They love Superman now more than they love Lex.

Lex has good intentions and sees himself as a hero, but his methods make him a sociopath.

You summed it up better than I could.

Aaron Wilder
07-21-2010, 11:55 AM
You summed it up better than I could.

Yeah that's exactly the way Lex should be portrayed. But a lot of times you just get crazy Lex, all hopped up on kryptonite injections and wearing a 1980s powersuit because someone gets lazy and would rather do mindless action instead of smart writing.

ronin7
07-21-2010, 04:49 PM
Yeah that's exactly the way Lex should be portrayed. But a lot of times you just get crazy Lex, all hopped up on kryptonite injections and wearing a 1980s powersuit because someone gets lazy and would rather do mindless action instead of smart writing.


Luthor will go back to being a master manipulator. People will tire of DC's nonsense, and whoever replaces Didio will see that they need to swing the pendulam the other way.

Paul Sanderson
07-21-2010, 07:52 PM
I disagree. With the dreck that was New Krypton, Superman needs to reacquint himself with humanity. A lot of people would be questioning his loyality. Not every story has to be smash and bash action.

That may be, but surely it could be done in a story that doesn't ape a zillion others before it. And, judging by this issue, it isn't even particularly good anyway! You don't wipe away dreck with more dreck.

ronin7
07-21-2010, 08:07 PM
That may be, but surely it could be done in a story that doesn't ape a zillion others before it. And, judging by this issue, it isn't even particularly good anyway! You don't wipe away dreck with more dreck.


As the saying goes opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. I enjoy JMS' work.

Paul Sanderson
07-21-2010, 08:11 PM
I used to, but his work in the last few years has been uniformly poor.

Allegory Comics
07-21-2010, 08:54 PM
I agree that Superman has to renew his loyalities with humanities, win back their trust and re-evaluate his role in our society. But this is not the best way to do it. I'd even be willing to accept the story, but NOT in the monthlies. Not right now. Make it a stand along miniseries, but not in the monthlies.

After the mess that was New Krypton and the hemmoraging of fans, they needed to do something simple and back to basics to plug the hole in the ship. I think all they did was drill another hole.

Fans really needed to see Clark back in Metropolis, at the Planet with Lois. He's been gone over a year. He doesn't even want to spend some time with his wife before he heads back on tour?

I honestly feel like DC doesn't know how to write Superman for today's readers, or what to do with him anymore. Maybe they should start looking for fresh new talent who know and understand the characters.

*cough* *cough*

:whistlin:

Paul Sanderson
07-21-2010, 08:55 PM
Exactly right. A back to basics approach is really the only way to erase the recent nastiness which infected the monthlies.

ronin7
07-22-2010, 06:36 AM
I agree that Superman has to renew his loyalities with humanities, win back their trust and re-evaluate his role in our society. But this is not the best way to do it. I'd even be willing to accept the story, but NOT in the monthlies. Not right now. Make it a stand along miniseries, but not in the monthlies.

After the mess that was New Krypton and the hemmoraging of fans, they needed to do something simple and back to basics to plug the hole in the ship. I think all they did was drill another hole.

Fans really needed to see Clark back in Metropolis, at the Planet with Lois. He's been gone over a year. He doesn't even want to spend some time with his wife before he heads back on tour?

I honestly feel like DC doesn't know how to write Superman for today's readers, or what to do with him anymore. Maybe they should start looking for fresh new talent who know and understand the characters.

*cough* *cough*

:whistlin:


As much as I would like JMS to ignore New Krypton and start fresh. Didio isn't going to allow that to happen. This story is the only way to follow what happened before and build the fanbase back up. I mean, everyone said JMS on Thor would fail, and it didn't. It was a sales smash. He proved everyone wrong. We haven't seen the numbers for his first issue of Superman, so likely it's just debated fan opinion on the quality of his run.

Troy Wall
07-22-2010, 09:09 AM
Hmmm. You'd think after the awesomeness that was Grant Morrison's All-Star Super-Man that DC would kind of take notes from it and why it worked so well. That was a crazy fun read that capitalized on everything that makes Superman the super hero archetype. The Absolute edition comes out this fall and Quitely's art is gonna look killer in that format.

I saw a solicit for an upcoming issue of Superman. The cover shows a sad looking child with a black eye wearing a Superman t-shirt. Betcha the issue is gonna be about child abuse and how the kid uses Superman / other DC super hero fantasies to escape his reality, and gets a surprise visit from the boy in blue himself.

Allegory Comics
07-22-2010, 09:13 AM
As much as I would like JMS to ignore New Krypton and start fresh. Didio isn't going to allow that to happen. This story is the only way to follow what happened before and build the fanbase back up. I mean, everyone said JMS on Thor would fail, and it didn't. It was a sales smash. He proved everyone wrong. We haven't seen the numbers for his first issue of Superman, so likely it's just debated fan opinion on the quality of his run.
I never said ignore NK. Obvioiusly he has to deal with the ramifications of that storyline. But I don't think this is the best way to do that. And like I said, I don't think this will be a bad story (I like JMS), I just don't think it's the right story to tell in the monthlies right now.

Fans left the book because they didn't feel Superman was doing much. They wanted him back in action, back in Metropolis, and back in the red and blue. Well, we got the costume, but I know for a fact (because I frequent those site) that many hardcore Superman fans are not happy with this direction. They like JMS, but they wanted to see a different approach.

MBirkhofer
07-22-2010, 10:03 AM
Just stop reading Superman, and start reading Powergirl.

ronin7
07-22-2010, 11:13 AM
I never said ignore NK. Obvioiusly he has to deal with the ramifications of that storyline. But I don't think this is the best way to do that. And like I said, I don't think this will be a bad story (I like JMS), I just don't think it's the right story to tell in the monthlies right now.

Fans left the book because they didn't feel Superman was doing much. They wanted him back in action, back in Metropolis, and back in the red and blue. Well, we got the costume, but I know for a fact (because I frequent those site) that many hardcore Superman fans are not happy with this direction. They like JMS, but they wanted to see a different approach.


Fan sites don't dictate what comic publishers put out. Voting with your wallet does.

Allegory Comics
07-22-2010, 12:03 PM
Fan sites don't dictate what comic publishers put out. Voting with your wallet does.
EXACTLY! And these fan sites are the core readers, and sales over the last year (even among core readers) have shown that they have run away from these books as fast as they can. The books have dropped in sales about 50% in ONE YEAR without even once going up, even a little.

But that was New Krypton. The question now is: how will sales fare on this new storyline? Only time will tell. I suspect they will go back up initially, as fans tune back in to see whether or not they like it. We'll have to wait 2-3 months to know how fans are truly receiving this storyline.

Yes, there is a direct correlation between fan site reaction and sales. Because these sites are populated by longtime faithful readers, and those faithful readers are harder to lose than casual readers. And when that core audience turns against you (as many are now) ... you're in serious trouble.

ronin7
07-22-2010, 03:44 PM
EXACTLY! And these fan sites are the core readers, and sales over the last year (even among core readers) have shown that they have run away from these books as fast as they can. The books have dropped in sales about 50% in ONE YEAR without even once going up, even a little.

But that was New Krypton. The question now is: how will sales fare on this new storyline? Only time will tell. I suspect they will go back up initially, as fans tune back in to see whether or not they like it. We'll have to wait 2-3 months to know how fans are truly receiving this storyline.

Yes, there is a direct correlation between fan site reaction and sales. Because these sites are populated by longtime faithful readers, and those faithful readers are harder to lose than casual readers. And when that core audience turns against you (as many are now) ... you're in serious trouble.

All the online fans piss, whined, and moaned about Bendis being writer of the Avengers - was he kicked off the book? No, his Avengers sold better than Morrison's JLA and Busiek's Avengers. Even during this post recession/weak recovery his Avengers are a sales smash. JMS' I'm sure will be the same. People will whine and complain, but continue to buy his run on Superman while there will be people who actually enjoy the stories.

Allegory Comics
07-22-2010, 04:07 PM
People will whine and complain, but continue to buy his run on Superman while there will be people who actually enjoy the stories.
Yep.

But fans also complained and jumped ship from New Krypton, which is what made it end sooner than they had originally planned, according to Superman editor Matt Idelson. He also said the WAR OF THE SUPERMEN was supposed to be a monthly book, but they made it a weekly title to get it done and over with quicker (http://www.supermanhomepage.com/inter-action/inter-action.php?topic=ask-editor/ask-matt-0410).

I think the drop in sales mostly tells us that readers didn't really cotton to the idea of Supes being replaced in his books. That's actually a portion of the reason we took the WAR event, which was slated to run monthly starting in June, and shifted it into May as a weekly event. We want to make sure we tell as satisfying a conclusion to the New Krypton stuff for the readers that have remained with us, while also shortening the length of time the story will take to tell.
As for how we win readers back, I think the answer is to go in a bold, different direction starting the moment the WAR is over, which is what we're doing with all three titles (plus a couple pieces of surprise product we may have up our sleeves).
And finally, I think what we could have done to prevent this exodus is not opted to move up the release of WONK by 3 months (along with the departure of Superman) so that we could have better fleshed out and developed a following for those characters, and then shortened the length of the overall thing so that we were getting to the War in, say, January.
You're right though. Fans bitch about everything. Many have dropped the books already (which is why they killed NK so quickly), and only if they continue to do that will DC listen.

My point all along, though, has been that they ARE dropping the books. So sometimes fan site reaction does reflect in sales.

Who knows how well this new story will be received. Time will tell.

Paul Sanderson
07-23-2010, 10:23 AM
Fans voting with their wallets is the only way the DCs and Marvels of this world will listen.

Raven
07-24-2010, 12:10 PM
Action with Luthor is the most exciting thing to happen to that book since 1960.

Nick Kerklaan
07-25-2010, 10:25 PM
I liked New Krypton.

Paul Sanderson
07-25-2010, 11:51 PM
I liked New Krypton.

You poor thing you ;) :p

Nick Kerklaan
07-26-2010, 12:23 AM
I like it when people try different things with Superman. One of the biggest complaints I hear from people who dislike Superman is that such a powerful character makes for inherently boring stories. So why are we complaining when people actually find new kinds of stories to tell with him? If you're worried about missing your action fix it's not like superhero comics are hurting in that department.

I'm not the biggest fan of JMS, but let's wait and see how he does it.

Paul Sanderson
07-26-2010, 02:10 AM
Nothing wrong with different. The Superman comics have been filled with bad writing in recent times. Different matter entirely. And what JMS is doing isn't different. It's just plain silly. But, we'll see how he goes as his run continues.

MBirkhofer
07-26-2010, 01:37 PM
I like it when people try different things with Superman. One of the biggest complaints I hear from people who dislike Superman is that such a powerful character makes for inherently boring stories. So why are we complaining when people actually find new kinds of stories to tell with him? If you're worried about missing your action fix it's not like superhero comics are hurting in that department.

I'm not the biggest fan of JMS, but let's wait and see how he does it.
You know. I hear people say, that people say that all the time. But I have never actually heard anyone say that.

In fact, pretty much only hear about people loving it when Superman is the iconic, superman.

Btw, All star superman. Animated. Fuck yeah.

Moonrider
07-26-2010, 02:40 PM
I like it when people try different things with Superman. One of the biggest complaints I hear from people who dislike Superman is that such a powerful character makes for inherently boring stories.

I wouldn't say boring, I'd say Superman stories were... less fun. New Krypton had an interesting enough plotline, but it was just bleak. A whole planet full of Superman-level humanoids? We kinda knew from the start that it won't end well.

Nick Kerklaan
07-27-2010, 08:41 AM
You know. I hear people say, that people say that all the time. But I have never actually heard anyone say that.

In fact, pretty much only hear about people loving it when Superman is the iconic, superman.


Btw, All star superman. Animated. Fuck yeah.

You're lucky then. My circle of friends is largely a bunch of Superman-phobes, and aren't really interested in any Supes story unless it's doing something - to their minds - substantially different. (Like Red Son. Everyone loves Red Son.) All-Star Superman is one of the ones most of the avowed Superman-haters seem to love, which is ironic seeing as its probably the most Superman-y of all.

I'm really stoked about seeing it animated, hadn't heard about that.


I wouldn't say boring, I'd say Superman stories were... less fun. New Krypton had an interesting enough plotline, but it was just bleak. A whole planet full of Superman-level humanoids? We kinda knew from the start that it won't end well.

Well, that's a more fair criticism than "get back to the standard Supes action, damn it!" Still, comics in general are pretty bleak these days, so I don't know if you can fault New Krypton for keeping with that trend.