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Biofungus
05-24-2010, 01:13 AM
Spoiler warning (it's all you're gonna get).










Red Hulk is General Ross. Who has in the serious appeared twice with Red Hulk. Now they're probably going to chalk it up to LMD's. It SUCKS. Despite all the crap with the series, Marvel at least promised the reveal would be "clever and creative". Dicks.


Oh, and Red She Hulk? Betty Ross.

Loeb didn't just hit rock bottom, he drilled straight through to the core.

Moonrider
05-24-2010, 06:01 AM
Wow a whole family of Hulks. Yawn.

Would have been better if they're just completely new characters.

HaphazardJoy
05-24-2010, 12:33 PM
Loeb didn't just hit rock bottom, he drilled straight through
to the core.

That's what you get for caring.

ronin7
05-24-2010, 05:21 PM
Actually, it's quite brilliant and makes sense. Who else hates the Hulk and all gamma freaks to the point he would do anything to be rid of them? It was even hinted in the very beginning when you think about it.

HaphazardJoy
05-24-2010, 07:51 PM
Rulk's hair even has a certain military cut to it.

Biofungus
05-24-2010, 08:08 PM
We knew it was a military person (that was obvious in the first issue, with the retinal scanner), but again, a] the promise of a 'clever reveal' and b] the fact that Ross was in panel/scene with Rulk at least *twice*.

Paul Sanderson
05-24-2010, 08:19 PM
I'm so out of the loop with this series (which is probably a good thing), that the last I remember General Ross died! :confused: :blink:

HaphazardJoy
05-24-2010, 08:44 PM
the fact that Ross was in panel/scene with Rulk at least *twice*.

Yikes but that's sloppy!
Was he looking at Rulk through a window? Maybe it was a mirror!
:slap:

JoMaC2k
05-24-2010, 08:57 PM
But also in that series there was an issue that setup up Doc Sampson fighting with Samson fighting with "Leonard" and Hulk has "appeared panel" with Bruce many times.

Also if you look at the end of the first trade When Ross is standing over Rulk notice, they show Samson walk away, but never show Ross when Samson is there and samson never talks to Ross, so that could've easily just been a subconscious on panel encounter. Wish is what I've said since that issue.

So, while I think it was a poor reveal. I think it was because it was so heavily telegraphed, not that they're retconning it into being.

Moonrider
05-24-2010, 09:00 PM
Okay, wait. How did they explain the moustache disappearing and reappearing?

Knuckles
05-24-2010, 09:11 PM
When did Betty Ross come back from the dead.

Mwynn
05-24-2010, 09:26 PM
Okay, wait. How did they explain the moustache disappearing and reappearing?
Its magic they don't have to explain it.

Biofungus
05-24-2010, 11:24 PM
Good point on the moustache. I didn't even consider that (and I know from Bruce Jones' run, that Bruce's hair affects how Hulk looks (when he shaved his head)), so the moustache should have been there (again, clever it ain't).

When Rulk "killed" General Ross, he busted up the armor so badly that Ross was exposed. As for the first scene, when Hulk finally beats Rulk, Ross was talking pretty specifically about how they spent so much money to make you (to Rulk) and what a waste it was, and how he failed them and was now on his own. As for Samson, he was dragging Rick's unconscious body away before Ross even started his dialog.

TEXX_A-02
05-25-2010, 04:32 AM
THEY SUCK ASS!!!!!!!!!
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN LIKE TALBOT ,or the other guy.Maybe like the one that was redeemer awhile back........Geesh they just ,,Idont know.and betty .First Harpie now this.......oh wait robot that looked like her ....whats next?????

CHWolf
05-25-2010, 03:10 PM
This reminds me of the original Batman "Hush" storyline. I got word from an insider that Loeb changed the identity of Hush a couple times because folks were guessing it right away.

When you're treading water on a story, nobody wins...

HaphazardJoy
05-25-2010, 03:15 PM
This reminds me of the original Batman "Hush" storyline. I got word from an insider that Loeb changed the identity of Hush a couple times because folks were guessing it right away.

When you're treading water on a story, nobody wins...

I actually rather enjoyed Hush. I haven't read it in a while, but I don't remember the kind of continuity issues being described here.

CHWolf
05-25-2010, 04:24 PM
I actually rather enjoyed Hush. I haven't read it in a while, but I don't remember the kind of continuity issues being described here.

No continuity issues mentioned, just a story with a character whose identity shifted behind the scenes... eventually settling on a plot twist Loeb had already used in a Batman arc.

HaphazardJoy
05-25-2010, 04:29 PM
just a story with a character whose identity shifted behind the scenes

So the source said, but without the continuity issues of this Rulk situation, it's just as easy to say that he knew what he wanted in the end all along and the rest was just griping.

CHWolf
05-25-2010, 09:44 PM
Well, you have no reason to trust the source - that's cool and I wouldn't expect you to automatically do so. However, I trust them 100%, so... *shrug* :3

The fact that Hush was revealed to be Jason Todd at one point, THEN it wasn't... but THEN they brought back Jason Todd a different way later on in essentially the same type of outfit, etc. should be a dead giveaway.

HaphazardJoy
05-25-2010, 10:53 PM
The fact that Hush was revealed to be Jason Todd at one point, THEN it wasn't... but THEN they brought back Jason Todd a different way later on in essentially the same type of outfit, etc. should be a dead giveaway.

Dead giveaway that they crumbled to fan pressure to bring Todd back in that role, yes.

CHWolf
05-26-2010, 01:22 AM
Not gonna argue the point.

HaphazardJoy
05-26-2010, 02:15 AM
Not gonna argue the point.

So I win, nice.

CHWolf
05-26-2010, 02:31 AM
You win one (1) internet victory.

HaphazardJoy
05-26-2010, 03:11 AM
Hey, a win is a win.

RandallFlagg
05-26-2010, 05:35 AM
I demand a recount! :man:

HaphazardJoy
05-26-2010, 05:47 AM
You would.

Paul Sanderson
05-26-2010, 06:05 AM
I think CHWolf won, actually :p

HaphazardJoy
05-26-2010, 11:34 AM
I think CHWolf won, actually :p

Frank, I just wished you a happy birthday yesterday, I'd hate to have to be celebrating your deathday today.

Moonrider
05-26-2010, 01:46 PM
Happy belated birthday, Frank. :)

ponyrl
05-26-2010, 06:24 PM
Rulk sad. :(

Paul Sanderson
05-26-2010, 10:09 PM
Frank, I just wished you a happy birthday yesterday, I'd hate to have to be celebrating your deathday today.

I'm immortal :p

Happy belated birthday, Frank. :)

Thanks Moonie :)

Biofungus
05-27-2010, 01:05 AM
Rulk sad. :(
Rulk pathetic is more like it.

ponyrl
05-27-2010, 01:42 AM
Rulk pathetic is more like it.
:laugh:

Hanyouyomi
05-30-2010, 01:13 AM
Worst character revelation ever... especially since a lot people speculated that it was General Ross... And Loeb didn't do any favors with the "Milksop" quote Rulk kept spouting. And Red She Hulk as Betty? Wasn't she poisoned by the abomination? Well actually reading from wikipedia has everything make a lot more sense...

ponyrl
05-30-2010, 02:13 AM
You no like Rulk?

Rulk no bad, rulk care...:(

Rulk saaadddd. :cry:

ronin7
05-30-2010, 09:02 AM
It doesn't matter if people speculated it was General Ross. The idea fit the story, and it was a great idea.

-Mick

CHWolf
05-30-2010, 12:44 PM
As more of a DC guy than a Marvel guy... I have to ask...

Is there a Blue Hulk, Yellow Hulk, Purple Hulk, etc.?

If so, are they Bulk, Yulk, and Pulk?


Why couldn't Rulk actually be Ruce Ranner?


Would an Orange Hulk be Oulk, Olk, or Orulk? Given the amalgamated name, would he therefore HAVE to be Nordic?

If so, could he be a sort of Thor-Hulk? Or would that be Thulk or Hor?

... Or is Orange Hulk actually just The Thing?


I guess what I'm asking is... who wins - Hulked-Out Thor, or the Hulk with Mjolnir?

(Assume each has equal prep time.)

Mwynn
05-30-2010, 12:48 PM
As more of a DC guy than a Marvel guy... I have to ask...

Is there a Blue Hulk, Yellow Hulk, Purple Hulk, etc.?

If so, are they Bulk, Yulk, and Pulk?


Why couldn't Rulk actually be Ruce Ranner?


Would an Orange Hulk be Oulk, Olk, or Orulk? Given the amalgamated name, would he therefore HAVE to be Nordic?

If so, could he a sort of Thor-Hulk? Or would that be Thulk or Hor?


I guess what I'm asking is... who wins - Hulked-Out Thor, or the Hulk with Mjolnir?

(Assume each has equal prep time.)
http://hulkcollection.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/hulk-stuff-5-191.jpg

Mwynn
05-30-2010, 12:50 PM
It doesn't matter if people speculated it was General Ross. The idea fit the story, and it was a great idea.

-Mick
If a mystery is created in a story and people figure it out on the first page, it does not work and is not a good idea.

While watching or reading Fight Club if you know that Jack and Tyler are the same person, it ruins the story and the writer failed to create a mystery.

CHWolf
05-30-2010, 12:52 PM
Okay, so Bulk is accounted for.

Mwynn
05-30-2010, 12:55 PM
Orange Hulk
http://www.foto-fanatics.com/products/9011.jpg

ronin7
05-30-2010, 02:57 PM
If a mystery is created in a story and people figure it out on the first page, it does not work and is not a good idea.

While watching or reading Fight Club if you know that Jack and Tyler are the same person, it ruins the story and the writer failed to create a mystery.


People made a wild guess. It does not mean the execution was flawed. Just because if I guessed what Morrison does on the end of Batman and Robin's last issue does that mean it's flawed? And I can't believe you brought up Fight Club, a terrible movie based on a terrible book.

Mwynn
05-30-2010, 04:28 PM
People made a wild guess. It does not mean the execution was flawed. Just because if I guessed what Morrison does on the end of Batman and Robin's last issue does that mean it's flawed? And I can't believe you brought up Fight Club, a terrible movie based on a terrible book.

Was there a mystery or mysterious character to be revealed in Batman and Robin. As for Fight Club what does whether you think the movie is terrible or not, have to do with the point being made?

Mwynn
05-30-2010, 04:29 PM
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/10/14/633595672035343055-Blackhulk.jpg

Biofungus
05-30-2010, 06:42 PM
But it wasn't a great idea, that's the problem.

There were other, better options. Rulk does not fit Ross at all (not to mention, certain visual factors (like the moustache) were purposely left out for no explicable reason just so it wouldn't be even more obvious).

Ross wants Hulk at just about any cost, but he's not so hypocritical as to become a monster himself (not to mention the alliance with Leader and Modok, etc. There's just way too much bullhonkery in the 'background' of the story to justify it).

Loeb says he's just telling the best story's he can. If this is 'best', wow, he's most definitely a fraction of his former self. Each major story/arc he tells goes down in quality noticeably.

CHWolf
05-30-2010, 07:16 PM
Long Halloween, Hush, Red Hulk ... any Loeb story arcs where the mystery character ISN'T someone who "died" earlier?

ronin7
05-31-2010, 07:32 AM
But it wasn't a great idea, that's the problem.

There were other, better options. Rulk does not fit Ross at all (not to mention, certain visual factors (like the moustache) were purposely left out for no explicable reason just so it wouldn't be even more obvious).

Ross wants Hulk at just about any cost, but he's not so hypocritical as to become a monster himself (not to mention the alliance with Leader and Modok, etc. There's just way too much bullhonkery in the 'background' of the story to justify it).

Loeb says he's just telling the best story's he can. If this is 'best', wow, he's most definitely a fraction of his former self. Each major story/arc he tells goes down in quality noticeably.


They brainwashed him into becoming Rulk. Just like they messed with Doc Samson's mind. Why do you think he was so upset? And what makes you think Rulk would have a moustache when Banner turns into the Hulk while having a moustache, and the Hulk doesn't have one.

You are just coming up with excuses to justify your hate for the book.

Biofungus
05-31-2010, 11:02 PM
Bruce Banner shaves his head, Hulk is bald. Bruce has 'scruff', Hulk has scruff. Bruce has never had a real moustache in the comics.

And where does it say they messed with Ross's head? In fact, in issue 6 when Ross is "addressing" Rulk, he practically says the opposite.

The "hate" is due to the piss poor writing and forcefully hiding factors that could not reasonably be hidden in order to hide the 'reveal'.

Moonrider
05-31-2010, 11:48 PM
You are just coming up with excuses to justify your hate for the book.

I'd say the contrary, we've just ran out of excuses to like the book.

Mark Bertolini
06-01-2010, 01:40 AM
I hate to disrespect the man, because he has written some fantastic things in the past, but this storyline was awful. It seems like everything Loeb works on now is pretty bad. From Ultimates 3, to Ultimatum, to this...he's a shadow of his former self.

I really liked the Long Halloween, but the man who wrote that no longer works in the industry, it seems.

CHWolf
06-01-2010, 02:29 AM
Imagine if Red Hulk had been a mind-warped Steve Rogers.

Biofungus
06-01-2010, 03:30 AM
Just re-read King Sized Hulk.

Rulk squares off against the Wendigo, cuts it's head off. Bruce writes his estimated summary of the incident and Ross is reading it. Even though presumably Rulk is heading for Russia, and Bruce even concludes his report with "the Wendigos will want revenge".

So Ross/Rulk made a detour back to the base for 'administrative purposes', and in a later issue of Hulk, the Wendigos went after Bruce in Las Vegas.

These are not "made up excuses to justify hate", they are examples of more bad writing.
And they never did clear up the issue (which they originally made a big deal out of) of what Ross whispered to Bruce in the first issue. I mean, they even had Reed Richards trying to figure it out, then dropped it altogether as a story/plot element.

ronin7
06-01-2010, 05:35 AM
Just re-read King Sized Hulk.

Rulk squares off against the Wendigo, cuts it's head off. Bruce writes his estimated summary of the incident and Ross is reading it. Even though presumably Rulk is heading for Russia, and Bruce even concludes his report with "the Wendigos will want revenge".

So Ross/Rulk made a detour back to the base for 'administrative purposes', and in a later issue of Hulk, the Wendigos went after Bruce in Las Vegas.

These are not "made up excuses to justify hate", they are examples of more bad writing.
And they never did clear up the issue (which they originally made a big deal out of) of what Ross whispered to Bruce in the first issue. I mean, they even had Reed Richards trying to figure it out, then dropped it altogether as a story/plot element.

I think the Ross who made those appearances was an LMD converted by the Leader. From what I have read so far, and lead to believe - the Leader is behind Rulk.

SIN 78
06-16-2010, 02:56 AM
I've been reading Hulk for a long time and I got to say that Loeb's Hulk stories would have fit better in the 80's. I mean come on the Hulk smacks everyone in the Marvel U around (world war hulk) and then he's getting slapped around by Rulk!? And going on space adventures with the Defenders and getting his power sucked away by Rulk?
If they had left Pak on the series it would have been the shiz nite. When I first saw Hulk in his gladiator get up I thought "oh man this is going to be cheesy", but he put out the best run of Hulk since I don't know when. Taking Pak off the series was a mistake, which is why we're talking about what we're talking about. I don't have anything against Loeb, I'm sure he wrote some good stuff, but this was clearly not it nor "The Ultimates". I just hope they keep Pak on the incredible series.
Back on topic, the reveal wasn't "GASP, I would have never guessed!" it was more like "yeah....huh".

ronin7
06-16-2010, 06:22 AM
I've been reading Hulk for a long time and I got to say that Loeb's Hulk stories would have fit better in the 80's. I mean come on the Hulk smacks everyone in the Marvel U around (world war hulk) and then he's getting slapped around by Rulk!? And going on space adventures with the Defenders and getting his power sucked away by Rulk?
If they had left Pak on the series it would have been the shiz nite. When I first saw Hulk in his gladiator get up I thought "oh man this is going to be cheesy", but he put out the best run of Hulk since I don't know when. Taking Pak off the series was a mistake, which is why we're talking about what we're talking about. I don't have anything against Loeb, I'm sure he wrote some good stuff, but this was clearly not it nor "The Ultimates". I just hope they keep Pak on the incredible series.
Back on topic, the reveal wasn't "GASP, I would have never guessed!" it was more like "yeah....huh".


There's nothing wrong with a story that doesn't take itself too seriously every now and again. Jeph Loeb delivered a great story in my opinion. I applaud him for it.

HaphazardJoy
06-16-2010, 06:36 AM
I applaud myself for deciding to quit after the first issue of this garbage.

SIN 78
06-16-2010, 12:01 PM
I'm not saying the stories were totally terrible, just the wrong arc to follow WWH.

ronin7
06-16-2010, 01:50 PM
I'm not saying the stories were totally terrible, just the wrong arc to follow WWH.


I don't think so. Sales were through the roof. So that proves Marvel was right in their decision. I enjoyed the story, and so did many others I imagine. The Internet is only a vocal minority when it comes to comics.

CHWolf
06-16-2010, 06:13 PM
You can make a lot of money selling crystal meth as opposed to, say, healthy rhubarb* - doesn't mean it's the right decision. :B

As for the internet being a vocal minority... who's the majority? Are there overwhelming masses touting opposing viewpoints? Magazine articles, etc. don't really count because... well, that's one dude. We can't really count sales as the "majority" because more people, by default, will always be in the "not buying Hulk" (or any other title) pool.



*Yeah. I don't really know if rhubarb is healthy.

ronin7
06-16-2010, 06:40 PM
You can make a lot of money selling crystal meth as opposed to, say, healthy rhubarb* - doesn't mean it's the right decision. :B

As for the internet being a vocal minority... who's the majority? Are there overwhelming masses touting opposing viewpoints? Magazine articles, etc. don't really count because... well, that's one dude. We can't really count sales as the "majority" because more people, by default, will always be in the "not buying Hulk" (or any other title) pool.



*Yeah. I don't really know if rhubarb is healthy.


Sales make or break a comic. That is the bottom line in comics. You could have a critical darling, and if it isn't over with the masses. It will flop. Look at Wildcats by Joe Casey as a result. Doesn't make the masses morons. Just makes their opinion outweighing the ones of everyone else.

-Mick

HaphazardJoy
06-16-2010, 06:53 PM
Sales make or break a comic. That is the bottom line in comics. You could have a critical darling, and if it isn't over with the masses. It will flop. Look at Wildcats by Joe Casey as a result. Doesn't make the masses morons. Just makes their opinion outweighing the ones of everyone else.

-Mick

Remind me to never, EVER let you buy comics for me. Sales is a fact of the way business works, but in no way will I ever accept your vision of things. The masses are still morons, and their opinion doesn't outweigh crap when it comes to being a judge of writing quality. Furthermore, there are people who create out of love and passion, who have little regard for the bottom line, and those people tend to be the best creators.

Knuckles
06-16-2010, 08:26 PM
Also, within comics you have people who our collecters and will buy stuff just to keep a run. I know that I have purchased some crap comics (Hulk as a matter of fact) to keep my run intact.

CHWolf
06-17-2010, 12:21 AM
Sales make or break a comic. That is the bottom line in comics. You could have a critical darling, and if it isn't over with the masses. It will flop. Look at Wildcats by Joe Casey as a result. Doesn't make the masses morons. Just makes their opinion outweighing the ones of everyone else.

-Mick


The thing is, however, that it's not a simple matter of good, poor-selling comics vs. bad, mediocre-selling comics. (I'm not prepared to look at certain numbers today and call them "great".)

In my possibly-not-very-humble opinion, it's a side-effect of poor quality comics being the norm. We all start looking beyond the page to tell us whether or not a comic was good.

"Meh, the story was OKAY... but it raised sales of the title so... awesome!!!"

Biofungus
06-17-2010, 01:18 AM
But that's for the most part, what Marvel sees. The sales numbers. Remember how JoeQ was claiming sales went up on Amazing Spider-Man when he made it 3 times a month and cut out the other two titles? Sure, the ASM numbers were higher than normal, but when you combined the total monthly sales, versus the 3 titles separately, the sales were actually down.

It's all about spinning the numbers, and let's face it, some long time fans pick up the books out of optimism that the story will get better (it's hard to know where to jump back into continuity, so they keep picking up the title so as not to miss things).

Paul Sanderson
06-17-2010, 03:30 AM
Remind me to never, EVER let you buy comics for me. Sales is a fact of the way business works, but in no way will I ever accept your vision of things. The masses are still morons, and their opinion doesn't outweigh crap when it comes to being a judge of writing quality. Furthermore, there are people who create out of love and passion, who have little regard for the bottom line, and those people tend to be the best creators.

Agreed.

But that's for the most part, what Marvel sees. The sales numbers. Remember how JoeQ was claiming sales went up on Amazing Spider-Man when he made it 3 times a month and cut out the other two titles? Sure, the ASM numbers were higher than normal, but when you combined the total monthly sales, versus the 3 titles separately, the sales were actually down.

It's all about spinning the numbers, and let's face it, some long time fans pick up the books out of optimism that the story will get better (it's hard to know where to jump back into continuity, so they keep picking up the title so as not to miss things).

Agreed. Those fans who continue to buy even when what they're buying is garbage (and they themselves know and admit it) are the self same morons Haphazard was talking about.

Moonrider
06-18-2010, 02:20 PM
some long time fans pick up the books out of optimism that the story will get better (it's hard to know where to jump back into continuity, so they keep picking up the title so as not to miss things).

Ah, the Bart Allen run on The Flash: Fastest Man Alive. I remember that particular torture.

Wait. Does that makes me a moron? :blink:

HaphazardJoy
06-18-2010, 06:04 PM
Wait. Does that makes me a moron? :blink:

Not as an individual, not at all. You're capable of saying: "Okay, this isn't what I'd hoped". The masses bought that book for their individual reasons, some probably good reasons. Some people surely enjoyed it. Many people bought it because it was just a big title, which really can't be taken as a sign of quality. Overall, whatever reason they bought it for, the fact that it sold doesn't make it good. The masses on a whole are a collective moron in that way. I don't mean to say that everything that's popular is garbage, just that being popular isn't a reliable sign of quality.

ronin7
06-18-2010, 08:55 PM
The thing is, however, that it's not a simple matter of good, poor-selling comics vs. bad, mediocre-selling comics. (I'm not prepared to look at certain numbers today and call them "great".)

In my possibly-not-very-humble opinion, it's a side-effect of poor quality comics being the norm. We all start looking beyond the page to tell us whether or not a comic was good.

"Meh, the story was OKAY... but it raised sales of the title so... awesome!!!"


Look at Watchmen. It was garbage, and yet you guys say it was great. It's a highly sold comic. Compared to New Avengers which isn't garbage and is a highly sold comic. Do you see where the disconnect is? It's your opinions don't cover the whole buying public. You can vent, and call people names. But, if they are buying comics. That's all that matters. Not everyone who buys comics hates what is produced. I find most of the complaining fans are hypocrites. They belittle a comic, and then praise another comic for doing the exact same thing because it has their favorite creative team on it compared to the other title.

Me, I can admit Grant Morrison has his hits, but I'm not as blind as his fans to admit he strikes out more often than not. Just like Bendis has his hits, which are more often than strike outs. He doesn't always hit the right cords, but that's the whole conceit of the game. To try and make the best story possible.

Paul Sanderson
06-18-2010, 09:40 PM
Watchmen the comic was great. Watchmen the movie (for me) was garbage. Most Marvel comics sold today are garbage.

Biofungus
06-18-2010, 09:41 PM
I never said Watchmen was great. I wouldn't call it garbage, but I didn't enjoy the graphic novel much at all. I thought the movie was actually better.

For the record, these are *gasp* opinions! Just like your claim of Watchmen being garbage. You may not like the story, others do. But you can't deny the fact that it had a significant influence on the comic industry as a whole.

As for that whole "complaining fans are hypocrites", I think you're quite wrong. The fans who tend to complain are the ones who buy the books hoping they'll be good reads (whether it's because of character fandom, or creative team fandom), and it turns out to suck. It's disappointment that causes fans to complain. I highly doubt people are praising in one book what they're spiting in another (unless it's a character specific story that fits one character (ala Blackest Night) that doesn't really fit the other set (Necrosha)).

HaphazardJoy
06-18-2010, 10:46 PM
Watchmen the comic was great. Watchmen the movie (for me) was garbage. Most Marvel comics sold today are garbage.

Let me help you here: Most of everything everywhere is garbage. There, better!

I thought the movie was okay, but certainly not as good as the book.

Moonrider
06-18-2010, 11:13 PM
For me, every comic book turn into garbage the soon as I finished reading them; Which usually takes less than two minutes.

CHWolf
06-18-2010, 11:17 PM
Look at Watchmen. It was garbage, and yet you guys say it was great. It's a highly sold comic. Compared to New Avengers which isn't garbage and is a highly sold comic. Do you see where the disconnect is? It's your opinions don't cover the whole buying public. You can vent, and call people names. But, if they are buying comics. That's all that matters. Not everyone who buys comics hates what is produced. I find most of the complaining fans are hypocrites. They belittle a comic, and then praise another comic for doing the exact same thing because it has their favorite creative team on it compared to the other title.

Me, I can admit Grant Morrison has his hits, but I'm not as blind as his fans to admit he strikes out more often than not. Just like Bendis has his hits, which are more often than strike outs. He doesn't always hit the right cords, but that's the whole conceit of the game. To try and make the best story possible.


You're painting with a bit too broad of a brush, here.

Some bullet points...

- I haven't read Watchmen past issue 1. (Fire at will)

- Saying my/our opinions don't represent the whole buying public is odd. Neither do yours... neither does the opinion of every single person buying New Avengers because that's an incredibly small sliver of "the buying public" at large... and most definitely less than half of "the comic buying public", specifically. More people don't buy a comic than do buy it - so by nature the fans of any comic are *never* the majority of the reading public.

- I never called anyone names...

- A few (compared to everyone else) folks buying a comic is NOT all that matters. That's like saying that if people bought pig $#!% in a can, the taste of the product doesn't matter, only that people paid for it.

- As for complaining fans being hypocrites, can you really say that anyone out there who dislikes, for example, the Red Hulk revelation... is actually talking about how great another comic is for revealing that the identity of a mystery character was someone who appeared "on panel" with their own supposed alter ego...? I mean, come on now...

ronin7
06-19-2010, 06:31 AM
You're painting with a bit too broad of a brush, here.

Some bullet points...

- I haven't read Watchmen past issue 1. (Fire at will)

- Saying my/our opinions don't represent the whole buying public is odd. Neither do yours... neither does the opinion of every single person buying New Avengers because that's an incredibly small sliver of "the buying public" at large... and most definitely less than half of "the comic buying public", specifically. More people don't buy a comic than do buy it - so by nature the fans of any comic are *never* the majority of the reading public.

- I never called anyone names...

- A few (compared to everyone else) folks buying a comic is NOT all that matters. That's like saying that if people bought pig $#!% in a can, the taste of the product doesn't matter, only that people paid for it.

- As for complaining fans being hypocrites, can you really say that anyone out there who dislikes, for example, the Red Hulk revelation... is actually talking about how great another comic is for revealing that the identity of a mystery character was someone who appeared "on panel" with their own supposed alter ego...? I mean, come on now...


Um, the human Ross was an LMD. It's a logical conclusion. Doesn't make the story bad. And yeah, my opinion doesn't represent the buying majority. But to have such a cynical view of the comic industry is not healthy business wise. Me personally, I want to be a successful business man as well as a comic creator. Not just a comic creator who is a critical darling, but never makes much money. I can't afford that.

Just my point of view.

ronin7
06-19-2010, 06:36 AM
I never said Watchmen was great. I wouldn't call it garbage, but I didn't enjoy the graphic novel much at all. I thought the movie was actually better.

For the record, these are *gasp* opinions! Just like your claim of Watchmen being garbage. You may not like the story, others do. But you can't deny the fact that it had a significant influence on the comic industry as a whole.

As for that whole "complaining fans are hypocrites", I think you're quite wrong. The fans who tend to complain are the ones who buy the books hoping they'll be good reads (whether it's because of character fandom, or creative team fandom), and it turns out to suck. It's disappointment that causes fans to complain. I highly doubt people are praising in one book what they're spiting in another (unless it's a character specific story that fits one character (ala Blackest Night) that doesn't really fit the other set (Necrosha)).

Blackest Night didn't really fit though. It was just shock for shock's sake in my opinion. Necrosha I haven't read, or any of the current X-Men stuff because the X-Men hasn't been good for a while now.

And I have seen people spit on one book for something, and praise another book for the exact same thing. People shit on New Avengers saying it's a rip off Morrison's JLA. When Morrison was aping Gardner Fox and admits it. His only story that was good in my opinion was Earth 2. Waid did a better job with the JLA.

RandallFlagg
06-19-2010, 07:49 PM
Blackest Night didn't really fit though. It was just shock for shock's sake in my opinion.
Sorry, just felt the need to jump in here. How is a comic story that was 3 years in the making "shock for shock's sake"? It actually seemed to follow a logical evolution for the Green Lantern Corps. But, that's just me.

ronin7
06-19-2010, 09:08 PM
Sorry, just felt the need to jump in here. How is a comic story that was 3 years in the making "shock for shock's sake"? It actually seemed to follow a logical evolution for the Green Lantern Corps. But, that's just me.


Killing the Hawks, etc? Yeah :rolleyes: