PDA

View Full Version : The rapid Peter Parkerization of the mid 1990s


Eugene Selassie
02-16-2010, 03:26 PM
Reading some of my older stuff lately.
I know I've given Kyle Rayner and Danny Ketch alot of crap. The characters were written very well. I just don't like how Hal was taken off the board or how Johnny was given the back seat.

I have NO problem with moving forward, legacy characters, etc... Wally West, Genis-Vell, Bucky Barnes and Cassie Sandsmark are some of my favorite characters.

Kyle and Danny are from what I call "The Rapid Peter Parkerization of the mid 1990s."
When instead of finding a great creative team and letting them tell kick ass stories with a character, editors basically said "Let's do a cheap gimmick event and replace em with a Peter Parker-like character."

I can go down the list of books where they pulled that crap.

Green Lantern
Ghost Rider
The Atom (Titans)
Guardian (Alpha Flight)
Green Arrow (Although he was handled well)
Teen Tony Stark (Iron Man)
Ben Reilly (Spider Man. At the time, the solution to getting rid of a married hero with baggage).
X-O Manowar vol 2
etc...

The difference between that wave of characters, and lets say, the current wave...
(Jaime Reyes, Renee Montoya, Jason Rusch, Kate Spencer, Ryan Choi, Bucky Barnes, Marvel Boy, Triathlon/3-D man, etc...)
is that these characters don't all try to emulate some facet of Spider-Man's personality. Each brings something unique to the table.

Your thoughts...

HaphazardJoy
02-16-2010, 04:27 PM
I won't disagree, and have little doubt that Marvel and DC have tried to recreate success stories instead of forging ahead, but I'll just say that you at least need to take a step back and consider the small number of archetypes and story arcs humanity has to offer. Not as a defense or a complaint there, just that we have several molds for protagonists with basic outlines of character, less than that even until people like Kirby started going outside the box, and so it's inevitable that characters are reflections of eachother underneath the costumes.

Eugene Selassie
02-16-2010, 04:41 PM
I won't disagree, and have little doubt that Marvel and DC have tried to recreate success stories instead of forging ahead, but I'll just say that you at least need to take a step back and consider the small number of archetypes and story arcs humanity has to offer. Not as a defense or a complaint there, just that we have several molds for protagonists with basic outlines of character, less than that even until people like Kirby started going outside the box, and so it's inevitable that characters are reflections of eachother underneath the costumes.

I agree to a certain extent.

Archetypes are one thing...

But changing a character to a male caucasian early 20s with relationship/financial problems, who isn't accepted as much by his peers, sometimes feels like an outsider...

That is so blatantly trying to swipe the "aura" of Peter Parker, its not even funny.

HaphazardJoy
02-16-2010, 04:48 PM
But changing a character to a male caucasian early 20s with relationship/financial problems, who isn't accepted as much by his peers, sometimes feels like an outsider...

That is so blatantly trying to swipe the "aura" of Peter Parker, its not even funny.

Only problem with that: That's not the aura of Peter Parker, that's the aura of the average comic book reader.

To an extent, comic books have always been built on delivering wish fulfillment.

Moonrider
02-16-2010, 05:18 PM
True, being Spider-Man is the ultimate geek dream. In this economy, they should start making new archetypes like a jock who thinks comic books are for nerds when suddenly he was turned into a superhero himself. Or a corporate yuppie who fight corruption and other evils of capitalism at night. Maybe a granma with a laser gun and a robotic poodle.

HaphazardJoy
02-16-2010, 06:28 PM
Maybe a granma with a laser gun and a robotic poodle.

If you write it, I'll buy it!

Moonrider
02-17-2010, 10:28 AM
Maybe I will.

The DarkMind
02-17-2010, 11:24 AM
But changing a character to a male caucasian early 20s with relationship/financial problems, who isn't accepted as much by his peers, sometimes feels like an outsider...Only problem with that: That's not the aura of Peter Parker, that's the aura of the average comic book reader.

Actually, these days that's the aura of the average person in general, it's not confined to the "geek" fan base of comic readers and is what the Peter Parker persona has always been about, the Average Joe that virtually any reader can relate to.

Its a much more succesful characterization because not too many people can identify with the woes associated with being a millionaire playboy industrialist.

Eugene Selassie
02-17-2010, 11:51 AM
It's also a lazy cop out.

A good writer can MAKE me care about a rich billionaire playboy.

David Michelinie/Bob Layton, Kurt Busiek, Joe Casey and Warren Ellis MADE me care about Tony Stark.

Denny O'Neil, Greg Rucka, Paul Dini, Grant Morrison and even Judd Winick MADE me care about Bruce Wayne.

ronin7
02-20-2010, 03:15 PM
It's also a lazy cop out.

A good writer can MAKE me care about a rich billionaire playboy.

David Michelinie/Bob Layton, Kurt Busiek, Joe Casey and Warren Ellis MADE me care about Tony Stark.

Denny O'Neil, Greg Rucka, Paul Dini, Grant Morrison and even Judd Winick MADE me care about Bruce Wayne.


I think you are overlooking the fact that if people can't relate to a character then you have lost the audience's emotional interest, and made your battle that much tougher. Bendis, Miller, Byrne all outsold the guys you mention because they made people care about the characters as people.

And this is from some one who enjoys Denny O'Neil's Batman work.

The DarkMind
02-20-2010, 08:10 PM
It's also a lazy cop out.

A good writer can MAKE me care about a rich billionaire playboy.

David Michelinie/Bob Layton, Kurt Busiek, Joe Casey and Warren Ellis MADE me care about Tony Stark.

Denny O'Neil, Greg Rucka, Paul Dini, Grant Morrison and even Judd Winick MADE me care about Bruce Wayne.

Yes, they can MAKE you care, but making you care in no way makes you able to relate to the problems they have in life as a whole and say to yourself "oh man, I know EXACTLY what that's like."

Lazy cop out... I do agree to an extent, but only because it's easier to write what you know about from personal life experiences.

Eugene Selassie
02-21-2010, 08:34 PM
I think you are overlooking the fact that if people can't relate to a character then you have lost the audience's emotional interest, and made your battle that much tougher. Bendis, Miller, Byrne all outsold the guys you mention because they made people care about the characters as people.

And this is from some one who enjoys Denny O'Neil's Batman work.

When did this thread become about Bendis, Miller and Byrne outselling other writers?
:confused:

PC812
02-22-2010, 05:37 AM
Kyle and Danny are from what I call "The Rapid Peter Parkerization of the mid 1990s."
When instead of finding a great creative team and letting them tell kick ass stories with a character, editors basically said "Let's do a cheap gimmick event and replace em with a Peter Parker-like character."

I can go down the list of books where they pulled that crap.

Green Lantern
Ghost Rider
The Atom (Titans)
Guardian (Alpha Flight)
Green Arrow (Although he was handled well)
Teen Tony Stark (Iron Man)
Ben Reilly (Spider Man. At the time, the solution to getting rid of a married hero with baggage).
X-O Manowar vol 2
etc...
I wasn't a fan of Dan Ketch myself, I've always preferred John. But Kyle is my favorite GL, with Alan Scott as a close second. Guy and John were interesting as well, but I've never liked Hal Jordan. The guy's about as interesting as burnt toast to me.

Ben Reilly was a great character. Granted, the Clone Saga was handled horribly but Ben is still one of my favorite characters. I wish he would have stayed around as the Scarlet Spider.

I wouldn't lump Guardian in with this, though. They didn't really make him an everyman or anything like that -- he was just a young guy. And I'd hardly say Connor Hawke is an everyman either -- spending your formative years in an ashram doesn't really scream average joe to me. And teen Tony? He was a younger guy, yes (and it was a horrible story), but he still had Tony Stark's background and was still born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Had Tony been replaced by an accountant at Stark Enterprises or something, then I could see your argument.

ronin7
02-22-2010, 09:13 AM
When did this thread become about Bendis, Miller and Byrne outselling other writers?
:confused:


My point is the fact the writers who invoked drama generated a greater reaction from the fanbase. Which is why I brought up Bendis, Miller, and Byrne. The sales support that.

PC812
02-23-2010, 06:51 AM
My point is the fact the writers who invoked drama generated a greater reaction from the fanbase. Which is why I brought up Bendis, Miller, and Byrne. The sales support that.
So David Michelinie, Bob Layton, Kurt Busiek, Joe Casey, Warren Ellis, Denny O'Neil, Greg Rucka, Paul Dini, Grant Morrison, and Judd Winick never invoked drama? :blink:

ronin7
02-23-2010, 08:49 AM
Put it this way, Eugene. I know you think I'm drifting off topic, but I'm not. The whole reason for the relatablity factor in the mid-90's is because that's what people want. Characters that people can relate to, that serve as entertainment from their mundane lives.

Kyle Rayner was created to remove the stagnation from Hal Jordon, the drama and controversy roused interest in the sagging Green Lantern title, and brought sales up. That's why I brought up Bendis, Miller, and Byrne. Not to dredge up old arguments, but because they did the same thing. They created drama and controversy through their storylines to reignite interest in their respective sagging titles.

Eugene Selassie
02-24-2010, 01:26 AM
Put it this way, Eugene. I know you think I'm drifting off topic, but I'm not. The whole reason for the relatablity factor in the mid-90's is because that's what people want. Characters that people can relate to, that serve as entertainment from their mundane lives.

Kyle Rayner was created to remove the stagnation from Hal Jordon, the drama and controversy roused interest in the sagging Green Lantern title, and brought sales up. That's why I brought up Bendis, Miller, and Byrne. Not to dredge up old arguments, but because they did the same thing. They created drama and controversy through their storylines to reignite interest in their respective sagging titles.

And I still disagree. You're saying that the best way to invigorate character is with a cheap gimmick or bait and switch??

Thor, FF, X-Men, Teen Titans and Legion dominated sales in the 80s without those gimmicks...

Sales were pretty effing good for Daredevil, JSA, Flash, Punisher in the early 2000s without gimmicks.

ronin7
02-24-2010, 07:32 AM
And I still disagree. You're saying that the best way to invigorate character is with a cheap gimmick or bait and switch??

Thor, FF, X-Men, Teen Titans and Legion dominated sales in the 80s without those gimmicks...

Sales were pretty effing good for Daredevil, JSA, Flash, Punisher in the early 2000s without gimmicks.


Continue to disagree. But, I'd be more opened minded since you are also seeking to be a comic writer. You maybe asked to do a revamp like the Green Lantern one on some character, and when you are a writer starting out. You don't have much choice. Not unless you to want to burn bridges.

Eugene Selassie
02-25-2010, 12:13 AM
Continue to disagree. But, I'd be more opened minded since you are also seeking to be a comic writer. You maybe asked to do a revamp like the Green Lantern one on some character, and when you are a writer starting out. You don't have much choice. Not unless you to want to burn bridges.

http://www.supanet.com/burning-bridges-14581.jpg

Guess I've never been good at kissing ass. LOL.

Sorry, but pride won't allow me to go against what I believe. If I don't get into the industry because of that, then so be it.

Eugene Selassie
03-06-2010, 02:32 PM
I just wish those new characters that debuted in the 90s were more like the ones that debuted this decade (Kate Spencer, Mia Deardon, Orsen Randall, Nathaniel Heywood, Jason Rusch, Ryan Choi, Jaime Reyes, Phyla-Vell, Shilo Norman, Donyell Taylor, Lorena Marquez, Kate Bishop) and not all exactly like our most marketable character.

Its so lazy and transparent.