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galmando
02-07-2010, 04:41 PM
in light of recent discussions i thought i'd put a query out there

and before i start i dont want anyone naming any names, y'all know which recent events i'm talking about.

as an artist, i personally would never ask or expect to have payment up fron, it never crosses my mind.

as with the current project i'm doing for JD Lombardi, i do the pages that he asks and then he pays me, heck, he may not pay me straight away, but he stills does.

to be fair i dont always produce pages straight away, so i dont have any beef at all with our situation.

i have paypal set up and he simply pays me. i dont see why anyone would ask to be paid up front. thats really what my query is.

is there anyone on DW who would object to not receiving advanced payment and for what reason?

i've heard a lot of comparisons to artists being manufactors, which is quite accurate, and as with anything manufactured, i expect to pay for it when its complete.

i didnt lay donw 8,000 cash for my VW Fox before it was even built! so maybe thats where i get my values from, maybe not.

i wouldnt expect anyone to pay me in advance because in the back of my mind i'm also thinking 'what if i cant do the work?', sure i gotta pay the money back, but thats just hastle not needed when i can be paid as ad when i produce the work.

even if somebody offered i'd say no. perhaps i'm strange, i've no idea, but all this commotion has gotten me confused with hpw people work in this industry

Justice41
02-07-2010, 04:48 PM
As long as the steps taken by the artist shows you as the writer what you will be getting, then after the prelims or pencil stage(if the artist is doing the pencils and inks) no prob in paying some money, as work has been done. It encourages the artist as well but full payment may send the slacker in them into meltdown. :laugh:

galmando
02-07-2010, 05:00 PM
i would regard myself unfortunately as a slacker, being honest.

i have one full issue down and its a daunting taks to start part 2

the honest reason i slack though is due to my job, it just gets in the way quite litterally. then there's the missus.

yeesh, i could write a whole thread on that.

i hate letting anyone down so i will definately do the work, and pretty soonish actually. i recently turned down some gigs because i just didnt want to bite off more than i could chew.

i'd rather someone see me as honest than useless i guess

Lee Nordling
02-07-2010, 05:01 PM
I'll be dealing with some of this in my new column for Comics Pro Prep over at projectfanboy.com (which I'm promoting because it's on topic with these discussions).

Different comics industries pay differently.

A sense of what's the right way to pay is different.

Companies that produce comic books with company-owned characters TEND to pay for each approved set of pages or book.

But where a project is big, and it takes a lot of work, everybody gets that folks need to eat while they work, so some publishers (mostly book publishers) pay an advance.

I had one publisher pay a 1/4 advance for a four-book full-color series. Each additional payment was for approved aspects (like script or inks) for each of the books. My trick, as a packager, was using the advance to pay out people for their work as soon as it was approved, so my payment schedule didn't line up with the publisher's payment schedule. It was tricky.

I got another publisher I hadn't worked with before to pay 30 pages (out of 160) as partial advances throughout the script stage, and then the art stages.

They didn't have to deal with a 50% advance for the book, and I was able to get money in hand to pay creators once their sections were done and approved. As the packager, I didn't want to get stuck owing creators when a publisher owed us. That was a unique and terrific situation that involved a fair amount of give and take.

Generally, comics publishing pays for completed pages, and book publishing involves an advance with incremental payments for the balance.

When creators are paying creators, it gets tricky...because sometimes the buyer can get the pages and not pay up, and the seller can get the advance and not do the work to satisfaction. It can go wrong both ways.

I've read some people's approach, and paying for each approved page involves the least amount of risk...unless you consider having half a book done by an artist who moved onto better paying work risk-free.

My own preferred method is working partnerships, where everybody has skin in the game and is looking for a publisher to pay for the book, but that means having a realistic expectation that a project will sell to a publisher.

--Lee

galmando
02-07-2010, 05:05 PM
i suppose a lot of it is trust then

Lee Nordling
02-07-2010, 05:12 PM
i suppose a lot of it is trust then
And gauging trustworthiness, yes.

Continuing to tout, check out my last Comics Pro Prep column on "Assessing project & collaborator needs & goals" at projectfanboy.com...and welcome to the business side of comics.

--Lee

L Jamal
02-07-2010, 05:25 PM
I've demanded payments upfront when the creator wanted a reduced rate. I accept reduced rates only when I can fit the project into my schedule and only when I'm paid upfront. That's the cost of the reduced rate and the payment is non-refundable.

Otherwise, I'm happy to do the work and then get paid.

I've been burned twice in 7 years for a total of about 24 pages. I was fully paid for one job several years later, so now I'm owed for 16 pages by a former DC colorist. All of this was back when I did flatting, so it been over 5 years now, so that's 5 years of payments after the fact without getting burned.

Biofungus
02-07-2010, 05:41 PM
Pffft, like you have to ask.

Booze and hookers, of course.

I usually have to get paid after the work is done though, because if I get paid before, it's a lot harder to get the actual work done :p

Hanzou
02-07-2010, 06:23 PM
I usually get paid after the assignment is finished. I send constant updates to my client so that he/she knows that I'm on track, and to ease their worries. I then send them a low-res image of the final. After payment I send them the full res image, and business is concluded.

I prefer to be in constant contact with my client throughout the process. I think it just makes things easier overall.

L Jamal
02-07-2010, 06:45 PM
I usually get paid after the assignment is finished. I send constant updates to my client so that he/she knows that I'm on track, and to ease their worries. I then send them a low-res image of the final. After payment I send them the full res image, and business is concluded.

I prefer to be in constant contact with my client throughout the process. I think it just makes things easier overall.
This works perfectly until you have that one person that does all the work, gets paid and then never delivers the files.

Hanzou
02-07-2010, 07:01 PM
This works perfectly until you have that one person that does all the work, gets paid and then never delivers the files.

Freelancing always has a "good faith" element to it L Jamal. You have to have faith that both parties are up front and do what they say they're going to do.

Those that don't pay, or don't come through with the work assigned get outed soon enough, and in the end, it hurts them a lot more in the long run than it will hurt you in the short run.

bholliday
02-07-2010, 07:07 PM
I tend to recieve payment upon completion of the work. Like Hanzou I constantly send updates to the client - thumbnails, roughs, pencils then inks etc to keep the good faith going.

We all operate in a world of trust and good will- anyone can get screwed over at any point in the process and because the money we generally throw around isnt worth getting lawyers involved, not much can be done.

Ive yet to have a bad experience though, so my faith has been rewarded!

B

L Jamal
02-07-2010, 07:09 PM
Freelancing always has a "good faith" element to it L Jamal. You have to have faith that both parties are up front and do what they say they're going to do.
For sure, but I never mention anything in passing that hasn't happened to me personally. Having an artist do all the work, send you low resolution images and never send the high res images is a deal changer.

The point is that for every irrational fear that your client has, chances are there is a story behind it. Listen to the story and you're that much closer to the perfect solution for that job.

Scribbly
02-07-2010, 09:30 PM
For sure, but I never mention anything in passing that hasn't happened to me personally. Having an artist do all the work, send you low resolution images and never send the high res images is a deal changer.
"IF" you had an artist who did all the work.
Then, he sent you low resolution images and thus, he never delivered the high res. images.
Well, you were not dealing with an artist,
You were dealing with a f***ing psycho who really hatred you.

Or maybe, the guy didn't want to pay for the shipping of these pages.(FedEx)
That's why big publishers pay upon complexion and approval of the work.
30 days after the artwork is received.

Nowadays, with the facility of sending the high res by FTP,
there is not excuse for not sending the final High res after receiving the payment.
Unless he has personal issues with you,
something that you can easily detect during your contacts with him, preventing you for sending money to him
before having the high res in hand.

weshoyot
02-07-2010, 10:33 PM
great thread. i've done work serval different ways. i prefer to get 25-50% upfront after we discuss pages and thumbnails are done. and then when te project is complete, and all edits finalized, the other 50%. but i have dealt with some guys who break down payments into book chunks, like 5ths and whatnot...depends on the client, and what they're comfortable with. i find each person/company i work for does it a lil bit different, but because i've been screwed out of pay for a job, i do insist on some sort of deposit at least to cver my a$$. not all artists are flakes....the writers/creators can be too. and it's no fun learning the hard way. so it's just a matter of getting the $$ worked out before the job gets started and following through on both sides

L Jamal
02-07-2010, 11:43 PM
"IF" you had an artist who did all the work.
Then, he sent you low resolution images and thus, he never delivered the high res. images.
Well, you were not dealing with an artist,
You were dealing with a f***ing psycho who really hatred you.
Nope, it was nothing personal.
I think the guy was just really disorganized.
I got my money back via a credit card charge back, so it wasn't that big a deal, just lost time.

JonathanAMoore
02-08-2010, 12:31 AM
All these threads about artist payment make it sound as if there's paying work everywhere.

I have no idea how I'd like to paid--'round here, it seems like mere legend that people actually get paid for art.

Add to that stories of artists stealing large sums of money, and the unpaid good guys wonder what's to be had in comics.

I'd draw just about any way, any how 12 hours a day right now for $1000.

ponyrl
02-08-2010, 12:59 AM
I usually get paid after the assignment is finished. I send constant updates to my client so that he/she knows that I'm on track, and to ease their worries. I then send them a low-res image of the final. After payment I send them the full res image, and business is concluded.

I prefer to be in constant contact with my client throughout the process. I think it just makes things easier overall.
this is how I work as a client.

dmh_3000
02-08-2010, 01:10 AM
I personally prefer to be paid after I've flatted/coloured/lettered the page, usually in batches of five or ten at a time. I don't know, something about being paid in advance for work I haven't done doesn't sit right with me.

William Blankenship
02-08-2010, 01:20 AM
Over-easy with buttered toast.

3!LL

Grant Perkins
02-08-2010, 04:49 AM
Often.

L Jamal
02-08-2010, 08:01 AM
Over-easy with buttered toast.

3!LL
On it's way.
Would you like it USPS, UPS or Fed Ex?

Magnus
02-08-2010, 08:30 AM
In buckets... filled with gold.



_____
www.magnus-aspli.com

Steven Forbes
02-08-2010, 09:31 AM
Depends upon what I'm doing, and even then, it depends on who I'm working for/with.

There are some peple with whom I'll work with at any time, in any capacity, because they've shown they can get it done.

When it comes to me writing someone else's book, of course it depends on how that book is set up, but I generally like to be paid half upon completion of the script, and half when all the edits are done.

If I'm editing, I like to be paid half up front, and then half when the edits themselves are complete. (There are some who pay me entirely up front, which sits a little funny with me, but I have yet to drop the ball on them.)

Why do I ask for half up front for editing? Because I believe it is a little easier on the writer than having them fork over a lump sum payment. When paying for editing plus artwork and such, I think that anything that helps ease the burden of paying is a good thing. (Anything except doing the work for free, wiseguys!) When I ran The Proving Grounds over at Project Fanboy, I'd also give a price break equal to the amount of pages I posted there. Usually five, but sometimes up to ten. However, since I no longer run that show, I can no longer offer that discount.

I also prefer to use Paypal. I look at the fees they take out as a convenience charge. Saves the headache of having to calculate for the fees in order to get all the money. I've done checks, I've done Western Union. Don't like 'em. Paypal is definitely my friend.

Newt
02-08-2010, 02:03 PM
I have not worked in comics at all, or with any sort of commissioned work.

I do sell illustrations and paintings. Selling these is like selling any ordinary manufactured good. I make the work first, and then try to find a buyer. Even commissioned illustrations can usually be sold to someone else if the commissioner fails to pay.

Comics pages (and certain types of illustrations, such as portraits) are clearly in a different category- they are always bespoke. Who else is going to buy them if the commissioner flakes? So, it makes sense to me that some artists would be leery of payment-on-delivery. There is no way to recoup potential losses.