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View Full Version : If you helmed the Avengers relaunch of 2005


Eugene Selassie
12-19-2009, 06:47 PM
This is just a fun concept that I had.

For my choice as who should've shepherded this...it sounds weird since I was one of his biggest detractors...

Mark Millar. I know he's already doing Ultimates and despite his issues with continuity and taking a character from point A to point B without proper explanation, MAN does he GET what the scope of Avengers stories are. They shouldn't be talking heads-ing it for four issues of a six issue storyarc.

And with the right editor (Brevoort), who will actually be allowed to edit the book (unlike he is right now) and his encyclopedic knowledge of the franchise, and Millar allowed to do big epic stuff, making Kang the Conqueror, Ultron, Count Nefaria, the Zodiac and others the big world shaking threats that fans of other books like X-men, Spidey and FF would respect them for handling.

Team-wise???

Cap
Iron Man
Storm (since Thor was off the playing field)
Hulk (replaced later by his cousin)
Ms Marvel
Luke Cage
Spider Man (replaced later by the Scarlet Spider from the Initiative)
Wolverine (replaced later by a resurrected Phoenix)
Blade (replaced later with White Tiger or Daredevil)

Mighty Avengers?

Hank Pym
Hercules (replaced later by Colossus)
Puck (Alpha Flight)
Human Torch (Only FF member never to be an Avenger, later replaced by resurrected Quasar)
Silver Samurai
New Black Panther
Quicksilver
Hawkeye
Photon

Avengers Initiative: Written by Dan Slott
Henry Gyrich/Bobbi Morse as heads of program
Gauntlet
Tigra
Justice
Beast
Stingray
Rage
Stature
Vision
Rotating new students

Young Avengers: Written by Allen Heinberg and Kurt Busiek

Scarlet Centurion secretly mentors the group to prep them for a big battle with Kang.
Patriot
Kate Bishop (now called Mockingbird with Bobbi's blessing)
Wiccan
Hulkling
Speed
Tarene (Thor-Girl)
Noh-Varr
Amadeus Cho

Force Works: Written by Christos Gage
(Hey, they made X-Force make sense now, so it could work)
War Machine
Ares
U.S. Agent
Arachne
Living Lightning
Daken
Atlas (Former Thunderbolt)
Ant-Man (Eric O'Grady)


Thunderbolts: Written by Gail Simone

Songbird
Mach IV
Moonstone
Venom (Eddie Brock)
Juggernaut
Wonder Man (because he wants to keep an eye on--)
Grim Reaper (reformed)
Gambit
Echo

Go ahead and rip me a new one now for these choices... :har:

JamieRoberts
12-19-2009, 08:56 PM
So, in short, you want everyone in the Marvel Universe? Heh. Just bustin' yer chops, but there are a lot of names in there!

HaphazardJoy
12-20-2009, 12:14 AM
Uh oh, Eugene got into the fire water again.

I don't understand all your thinking, but I like the inclusion of several X-characters (where's Beast though, I always loved the idea of him as an Avenger).

We're clearly into different era stuff, but I'd actually like to see what someone like you could do with the Avengers Eugene. I think Mighty Avengers took a while to hit stride, but now I'm on board with you on that one. Great mix of classic feel but some more modern styling.

Luke de Sade
12-20-2009, 11:44 AM
I like Bobbi as head of the Initiative. I'd read that comic if she was in it, 'cause I just love her to death.

Eugene Selassie
12-20-2009, 07:27 PM
I'd love to write the Avengers.
I've done like 11 different 8 page stories with different characters. Sitting on em for pitch purposes.

Eugene Selassie
12-21-2009, 05:46 PM
So...no takers???
I'm sure you guys could come up with better rosters than I.

Biofungus
12-21-2009, 07:20 PM
Avengers:
Cap
Iron Man
Black Panther
Blade
Ms. Marvel
Sentry
Ronin/Hawkeye

The other teams? Screw that noise.

JamieRoberts
12-21-2009, 08:10 PM
Yeah. One team.

Captain America
War Machine
Warbird/Ms Marvel
Beast
Hercules
Songbird
Wonder Man

HaphazardJoy
12-22-2009, 09:04 AM
I don't know about that specific relaunch, but a line-up I'd like to see, that I can do.

Captain America,
Doctor Strange,
Beast,
Quicksilver,
Ms.Marvel,
Ronin,
Vision,
Black Knight

A good mix of down-to-earth heroes, scientific heroes, mystic heroes, and a cosmic hero.

EDIT- I dunno, it seems lacking without a Thor or an Iron Man to make it anything like the Classic, but these are all characters I really like.

Ian Ascher
12-22-2009, 09:10 AM
Too many books...
Too many characters...

There should be one Avengers book
Cap
Iron Man
Thor
Ms Marvel
She Hulk
New Black Panther
Hawkeye
Wasp (Pym)
Dr. Strange (as my one wild card member since there's no real mystic on the team)
Plus a couple of spots for former members always willing tolend a hand on a mission as needed like Beast, Wonder Man, TIgra, Herculese, Mockingbird, etc..

Everyone else can weave in and out of a book like Avengers Initiative. Its the perfect place to tell any Avengers story you can think of without disturbing the monthly book. Keep the Thunderbolts a group of villains under someone's thumb. And I suppose if we stil need a Young Avengers book, keep it the way it has been.

ronin7
12-22-2009, 09:31 AM
My roster would roughly be the same as Bendis.

Eugene Selassie
12-22-2009, 01:36 PM
Too many books...
Too many characters...

There should be one Avengers book
Cap
Iron Man
Thor
Ms Marvel
She Hulk
New Black Panther
Hawkeye
Wasp (Pym)
Dr. Strange (as my one wild card member since there's no real mystic on the team)
Plus a couple of spots for former members always willing tolend a hand on a mission as needed like Beast, Wonder Man, TIgra, Herculese, Mockingbird, etc..

Everyone else can weave in and out of a book like Avengers Initiative. Its the perfect place to tell any Avengers story you can think of without disturbing the monthly book. Keep the Thunderbolts a group of villains under someone's thumb. And I suppose if we stil need a Young Avengers book, keep it the way it has been.

Look, I'd love a roster like this, but it was apparent with Disassembled/New Avengers, Marvel didn't want to tell Avengers stories with the Avengers anymore.

This exercise is basically, if you had to shake the franchise up like Bendis did, how would you do it and who would you use.

I like your roster, but it is classic Avengers. The audience reading now has ZERO respect for classic Avengers. This is to appease those.

Mark Bertolini
12-22-2009, 04:56 PM
My roster would roughly be the same as Bendis.


I agree. I was never a big fan of the Avengers. The only time I became interested was when Bendis shook it all up and stuck all his favorite characters on the roster. I realize it's not classic Avengers, and not to everyone's liking in terms of the history of the book, but I really like the group that Bendis put together. The only thing I would change is I'd get rid of Wolverine. He just seemed unneccessary.

Eugene Selassie
12-22-2009, 05:10 PM
I agree. I was never a big fan of the Avengers. The only time I became interested was when Bendis shook it all up and stuck all his favorite characters on the roster. I realize it's not classic Avengers, and not to everyone's liking in terms of the history of the book, but I really like the group that Bendis put together. The only thing I would change is I'd get rid of Wolverine. He just seemed unneccessary.

I don't have a problem with Spidey or Luke Cage as Avengers.
Even Spider Woman.
There should be a rule to the limit on how many sandbox characters a writer is allowed on a book.
I wouldnt mind just Cage and Jessica Jones, or JUST Echo and Spider Woman, but no Spider Man...but ALL of them at once?

WilliamStormeSmith
12-22-2009, 10:28 PM
The latest runs seem like they have way to many characters. I mean if that's going to be the main purpose of the book is to launch other books and minis, then that's fine but just say so. The latest NA Luke Cage storyline had to many characters. Dark Avengers are in so many storylines it's like a plague. And Mighty Avengers has way way to many characters. The books remind me of soap operas without any drama. All the character interactions of the last 40 years get wasted in this type of storytelling.

They fit a certain niche, and the art's awesome. So I read them, but they could be way more enjoyable. My favorite Avengers lineup ever was a small one Cap, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Quicksilver, and the Scarlet Witch.

ronin7
12-23-2009, 08:38 AM
I agree. I was never a big fan of the Avengers. The only time I became interested was when Bendis shook it all up and stuck all his favorite characters on the roster. I realize it's not classic Avengers, and not to everyone's liking in terms of the history of the book, but I really like the group that Bendis put together. The only thing I would change is I'd get rid of Wolverine. He just seemed unneccessary.


At first, I wondered about Wolverine, but then when Tony said that line about how Wolverine was like the new team's version of Cap. It all fit. He's basically some one they can trust not to divulge their secrets, some one who will go against the party line when he believes what everyone is thinking is wrong.

Look at how he was the one who said they should have whacked Wanda, and Emma agreed with him, as did many others. Cap being of a more conservative mind set said no. And look what happened?

Now, I admit Logan is a loose cannon, but a lot of fans forget he's also very intelligent despite his brutish exterior. With over a century of experience.

HaphazardJoy
12-23-2009, 08:58 AM
Enhhhhhhhh.

I dislike characterising Logan as being "intelligent". He's not Juggernaut or anything, but he shouldn't be portrayed as a genius either. There's way too many Marvel super-geniuses as it is.

Like plenty of others, I love Wolverine. However, I especially love him in the X-Force, Wolverine Origins context. IF they were playing up his previous roles as per Origins continuity, I think he'd rather just do the straightforward right thing. I think he's a character, like Batman, who best serves his purpose by being on his own.

I like Wolverine as part of the goody-goody X-men, I like Wolverine as part of X-Force with him being the most experienced but most reluctant one, I don't like Wolverine as an Avenger generally speaking. You team up Cap and Wolverine, and I'm there, but I prefer it being as part of a WWII story where Cap is at his best and Logan is at his moral worst.

Eugene Selassie
12-23-2009, 12:24 PM
I agree. I'd have been ok with Wolverine being an Avenger for the first 12 issues (because despite their false words, we all know he was put on the book for sales purposes and nothing else). But they should have rotated him out and brought in Beast or Shadowcat or Colossus...

ronin7
12-24-2009, 07:49 AM
Enhhhhhhhh.

I dislike characterising Logan as being "intelligent". He's not Juggernaut or anything, but he shouldn't be portrayed as a genius either. There's way too many Marvel super-geniuses as it is.

Like plenty of others, I love Wolverine. However, I especially love him in the X-Force, Wolverine Origins context. IF they were playing up his previous roles as per Origins continuity, I think he'd rather just do the straightforward right thing. I think he's a character, like Batman, who best serves his purpose by being on his own.

I like Wolverine as part of the goody-goody X-men, I like Wolverine as part of X-Force with him being the most experienced but most reluctant one, I don't like Wolverine as an Avenger generally speaking. You team up Cap and Wolverine, and I'm there, but I prefer it being as part of a WWII story where Cap is at his best and Logan is at his moral worst.


I didn't say a word about him being a genius. Intelligent doesn't always mean genius. But, he is smarter than he is often portrayed. And his role on the Avengers does serve a purpose. More so than Beast did when he was on the Avengers, or Shadowcat, or Colossus would by being on the team.

And Eugene, you're right; sales were apart of the equation. Marvel would be stupid not to put two of their top cash cows on the team that is supposed to be their answer to JLA.

HaphazardJoy
12-24-2009, 08:05 AM
I didn't say a word about him being a genius. Intelligent doesn't always mean genius. But, he is smarter than he is often portrayed. And his role on the Avengers does serve a purpose. More so than Beast did when he was on the Avengers, or Shadowcat, or Colossus would by being on the team.

Meh.

Wolverine isn't "intelligent" in a non-genius way either in my book. He could be described as tactically brilliant, and I wouldn't object, but he's not a cerebral character and I'd prefer to keep it that way.
MYSELF, I never mentioned Shadowcat or Colossus, so I'm not sure what you're saying there.
With Beast, I absolutely stand by him being a potential Avengers member. He's as physically capable as several common team members, but he's also a brilliant geneticist and a member of the mutant community, an important part of the Marvel universe. I would say, however, from an open minded perspective: there's a hundred characters who are good at killing stuff like Wolverine, but there's only a handful of characters like Kitty Pryde who would be useful in the way she is.

ronin7
12-25-2009, 08:44 AM
Meh.

Wolverine isn't "intelligent" in a non-genius way either in my book. He could be described as tactically brilliant, and I wouldn't object, but he's not a cerebral character and I'd prefer to keep it that way.
MYSELF, I never mentioned Shadowcat or Colossus, so I'm not sure what you're saying there.
With Beast, I absolutely stand by him being a potential Avengers member. He's as physically capable as several common team members, but he's also a brilliant geneticist and a member of the mutant community, an important part of the Marvel universe. I would say, however, from an open minded perspective: there's a hundred characters who are good at killing stuff like Wolverine, but there's only a handful of characters like Kitty Pryde who would be useful in the way she is.


I was answering both you, and Eugene's posts, so the comment about Shadowcat and Colossus was a response to Eugene.

We'll just have to disagree on Logan's mental aptitude. He's shown to be quite civilized even though he's been mocked by Mariko's family, and other Japanese. But, I do want to clarify that I do not think of him as Batman-level smart. More like on Nick Fury's level if not just a smidge above Fury due to his longer life experience.

As to Beast having been on the team, I think he serves best on the X-Men because not only is he one of the big brothers to the younger X-Men, but he's also one of the mutants who knows what it was like for a brief time to share the spotlight with the heroes. He knows how desperate their bid for survival and acceptance is. To have him on the Avengers while the X-Men are still struggling for acceptance wouldn't make any sense what so ever.

HaphazardJoy
12-25-2009, 03:58 PM
So it didn't make sense when he WAS on the Avengers? He's already cured the Legacy Virus and exhausted all avenues at restoring mutantkind, so it might be nice to have him do something noteworthy again. I was hoping that could be via SWORD, but the first issue wasn't that great and they play him as a simpering idiot.

And I really don't see Wolverine being nearly as smart as Fury in just about any sense of the word. Plus, how is he all that more experienced? Wolverine only has maybe thirty, maybe forty years on Fury, sure, but he spent almost the entirety of his adult life as a brainwashed agent of various other entities. The only things that made him especially good at was killing things and being a coldhearted bastard, and he even dropped the coldhearted bit. On top of that, it was only relatively recently that he had access to his full memories.

ronin7
12-25-2009, 06:46 PM
So it didn't make sense when he WAS on the Avengers? He's already cured the Legacy Virus and exhausted all avenues at restoring mutantkind, so it might be nice to have him do something noteworthy again. I was hoping that could be via SWORD, but the first issue wasn't that great and they play him as a simpering idiot.

And I really don't see Wolverine being nearly as smart as Fury in just about any sense of the word. Plus, how is he all that more experienced? Wolverine only has maybe thirty, maybe forty years on Fury, sure, but he spent almost the entirety of his adult life as a brainwashed agent of various other entities. The only things that made him especially good at was killing things and being a coldhearted bastard, and he even dropped the coldhearted bit. On top of that, it was only relatively recently that he had access to his full memories.


Logan wasn't brainwashed until the Cold War era. Before that he served in World War I and II, plus he did assignmants for an extradimensional firm where he faced extra dimensional menaces, and did all kinds of jobs for them. He's also done a lot of covert work for the CIA, Weapon-X, and Canada prior to joining the X-Men.

Sure, Fury has been in non-stop conflicts all over the world, and abroad, but he's not as skilled as Logan is. The only advantage Fury may over Logan is being more familiar with advanced weaponry. Otherwise, Logan is more experienced in combat, and survival training, including tactics.

And yes, Beast is wasted on the Avengers.

HaphazardJoy
12-26-2009, 12:05 AM
Even before WW1 though, he wasn't brainwashed, but he was under someone else's thumb virtually his whole life. From his introduction in WW2, where he was already a Sargent, so let's assume that he was in his early to mid-twenties rather than a fresh faced recruit, Fury has been a brilliant leader and strategist. He's not just good with weapons, he's the one that actually makes the decisions. When did Wolverine ever make his own decisions? As much as he's hemmed and hawed over it, he's pretty much stepped right into line with whatever the Hudsons, or Fury, or Xavier, or Cyke, or, in greater truth, Romulus wanted him to do. As far as actual duration of his being brainwashed, it's hard to tell with Marvel time compression. They give characters like Fury, Cap, Black Widow and Wolverine rough birth dates in real time, but then the actual history between then and now is compressed so that it's present day from our perspective, but not as many years have passed for the characters.

Ian Ascher
12-26-2009, 10:21 AM
Look, I'd love a roster like this, but it was apparent with Disassembled/New Avengers, Marvel didn't want to tell Avengers stories with the Avengers anymore.

This exercise is basically, if you had to shake the franchise up like Bendis did, how would you do it and who would you use.

I like your roster, but it is classic Avengers. The audience reading now has ZERO respect for classic Avengers. This is to appease those.

Point taken but you can still have a classic line up without using all third tier characters or a ton of x-men. Try this...

Cap (Bucky)
Rescue (Pepper in place of Tony)
Thor
Ms Marvel
She Hulk (The new one, daughter of Hulk & Thundra)
New Black Panther
Ronin (Still Clint)
Wasp (Pym)
Dr. Strange
And we'll add the Beast because he seems to be done with Scott & the X-Men right now.

Thinking back on the Avengers I still don't think anything can match the line-up they had when it was Dr Druid, Capt Marvel (Monica), She-Hulk, Namor, The Black Knight, and so on. And the line-up right after that had Reed and Sue Richards and Gilgamesh of all people...

HaphazardJoy
12-26-2009, 04:08 PM
I was thinking though, if you're going to use Beast, why not use Wonder Man too? It only makes sense.

Avengers in Spaaaaaaaaace-

Iron Man,
Ms. Marvel,
Wonder Man,
Vision,
Beast,
Abigail Brand,
Captain America,
Wasp (Hank Pym)