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DomeSFX
12-04-2009, 10:24 PM
My artist has left my comic. It was a paying job in which I paid 50% up front then 50% when product was finished. In the beginning the guy was late, but now he isn't responding at all. What should I do?

RonaldMontgomery
12-04-2009, 10:26 PM
What's his side of the story?

DomeSFX
12-04-2009, 10:28 PM
Supposely, he has computer problems. I've had other artist in the past do the same thing before not responding, yet at the time I was paying. (Partnership) This time around I'm paying a different artist and I get the same treatment.

Justice41
12-05-2009, 12:28 AM
Show up at his door. If you don't have a firm address shame on you. You only pay for fast food before you eat it.

Paul Sanderson
12-05-2009, 05:22 AM
Ditch him and find someone else. Happens all the time in this industry, I'm afraid. Suck it up and move on.

Scribbly
12-05-2009, 09:13 AM
Supposely, he has computer problems. I've had other artist in the past do the same thing before not responding, yet at the time I was paying. (Partnership) This time around I'm paying a different artist and I get the same treatment.

Or, maybe you should start learning how to write a good comics script.
Or how to treat, nor to threat your artists. ;)
We know of you lady.

DomeSFX
12-05-2009, 03:40 PM
Or, maybe you should start learning how to write a good comics script.

Which is not a valid reason to take someone's money and run.

Or how to treat, nor to threat your artists. ;)
We know of you lady.

I don't threaten my artist nor mistreat them in any kind of way.

DomeSFX
12-05-2009, 03:41 PM
Ditch him and find someone else. Happens all the time in this industry, I'm afraid. Suck it up and move on.

Yeah, it just messed up that he stopped after page 2 then stopped working on it.

Hanzou
12-05-2009, 04:17 PM
Sucks this happens. Makes it more difficult for independent creators to get projects off the ground.

Hopefully you can find another (better) artist to fill his/her shoes.

L Jamal
12-05-2009, 04:41 PM
My artist has left my comic. It was a paying job in which I paid 50% up front then 50% when product was finished. In the beginning the guy was late, but now he isn't responding at all. What should I do?
Learn from this lesson.
Few jobs pay in advance, so why should you.
Find a system that works better for you and the risks better.

Scribbly
12-05-2009, 04:45 PM
Yeah, it just messed up that he stopped after page 2 then stopped working on it.
Or, you can tell us how much did you paid to these
runaways artists.
Also, you can provide their names, so everybody will know
here and everywhere about whom are you talking about.

If all the artist who were contacted by you had the
same behaviour,(even when they don't know each other).
Something is wrong somewhere.
Maybe you just can write with no need for artists.
More safe for you and them.

RonaldMontgomery
12-05-2009, 05:08 PM
Learn from this lesson.
Few jobs pay in advance, so why should you.
Find a system that works better for you and the risks better.

Jamal has a good point, though it's bitter consolation.

Maybe this is an opportunity to regroup, talk to others about the business side...and if you think your scripting needs love, workshop in the Writer's Forum.

This board is a great resource center. Give yourself the advantage of learning more from it.

DomeSFX
12-05-2009, 05:27 PM
Jamal has a good point, though it's bitter consolation.

Maybe this is an opportunity to regroup, talk to others about the business side...and if you think your scripting needs love, workshop in the Writer's Forum.

This board is a great resource center. Give yourself the advantage of learning more from it.

*Nods*

I'll work on the script a little and I think I'll regroup my efforts in the coming months. Right now, I'm burnt out.

DomeSFX
12-05-2009, 05:28 PM
Or, you can tell us how much did you paid to these
runaways artists.
Also, you can provide their names, so everybody will know
here and everywhere about whom are you talking about.

He's not a local.

If all the artist who were contacted by you had the
same behaviour,(even when they don't know each other).
Something is wrong somewhere.
Maybe you just can write with no need for artists.
More safe for you and them.

I tried doing a novel, but the company turned out to be a vanity publishing company so it went no where.

Eliseu Gouveia
12-05-2009, 05:42 PM
Next time, hire me. :sure:

j giar
12-05-2009, 05:52 PM
Next time, hire me. :sure:

Heh.. :thumbs:

RonaldMontgomery
12-05-2009, 05:55 PM
Heh.. :thumbs:

Double heh!!!

Obrigado! ;)

L Jamal
12-05-2009, 07:04 PM
Any artist that thinks the script is a problem should have backed out of the project with any payment refunded. I don't care how bad the script is that is never an accuse for walking away with someone's money. NEVER. Any artist that even brings up the script as a justification for taking someone's money isn't someone you want to work with.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Never pay anyone up front unless they have a well established reputation that you can personally verify. There are too many scams to foolish throw out your money on unproven talent (see the Josh Hoopes/Art Adams scam).

I work with any where from 2-10 artists in any given month and they all get paid after work is delivered. Some times that's after 1 page, 4 pages, but most times it's after the story is complete (8-12 pages). All that I work with agree to those conditions because there is no other option. There is enough talent out there that I'm willing to walk away and find someone else (and have).

I've been burned and there are a few artists out there that owe me pages that I paid for. With my method after 5 years, I've loss less than $100 on artists.

j giar
12-05-2009, 07:46 PM
Any artist that thinks the script is a problem should have backed out of the project with any payment refunded. I don't care how bad the script is that is never an accuse for walking away with someone's money. NEVER. Any artist that even brings up the script as a justification for taking someone's money isn't someone you want to work with.


Agreed 100%...I've learned to say no. Wasn't easy because I always want to work on something or I like helping out. But taking on something you can't complete is not helping. I've passed on several projects purely because I didn't feel I was passionate enough about the story to do it and the writer justice. Not that you have to, but this artist....does he or she frequent this site?

Scribbly
12-05-2009, 08:25 PM
Give up his name, so he/she can expose the other side of the story.

As far I recall, since DomeSFX is posting here,(almost 6 years)
she's complaining about
artists that she paid and they always allegedly walked away
with the money not doing the job for her.
A long list. Coincidence?

Anyway, Eliseu, he will save the day.

NaveenM
12-05-2009, 09:44 PM
This has been my first year making comics. I put my first ad on DW in February or so. I've posted a few more since.

In this limited experience, I've learned that there are a lot of flakes out there. The hardest part is finding a consistent and reliable artist. There are many talented artists out there who lack professionalism.

I'm working with a highly skilled artist right now, one who is delivering pages as best as can be expected with an indie budget.

But he was a tough find. I've shared in your experience. The lack of professionalism is appalling.

And a bad script is NO excuse for taking someone's money and running.

NaveenM
12-05-2009, 10:19 PM
There are too many scams to foolish throw out your money on unproven talent (see the Josh Hoopes/Art Adams scam).

BTW, I think Josh Hoopes is still around. I posted an ad, and just got a reply from "Ron Runstrom", which I believe is one of his aliases. Just an FYI warning.

chris stevens
12-05-2009, 11:21 PM
i gotta be honest, as big a loser as this josh hoopes dude is, anyone who fell for his arthur adams scam kinda deserved it.

dome, i don't know you, but i've seen you on here for years and i know this has been something of a constant problem for you. believe me, i know how hard it is to put projects together and how discouraging it is when they fall apart, and i sympathize, but i think if i was you i would take a step back and re-evaluate how&what you're doing to make your projects happen. i think someone mentioned earlier in this thread, there's a lot to be learned and to gain from properly utilizing the community here. but first, for that to really work, you need to be part of that community, to take part in it. all i can remember seeing from you are posts like this.

food for thought, i'd like to see you succeed one day.

and one other thing, jamal said it earlier, paying an unknown, unproven artist upfront is like throwing money out of a moving car window and hoping it blows back your way.

DomeSFX
12-06-2009, 02:29 AM
Give up his name, so he/she can expose the other side of the story.

Piriz? I'm not sure if it is his real name.

As far I recall, since DomeSFX is posting here,(almost 6 years)
she's complaining about

He.

artists that she paid and they always allegedly walked away

False because I originally complained about having to pay an artist when a partnership is better. This artist is the first COMIC artist I have paid. Most artist in the past agreed to a job with pay. I let those past artist know in advance there is no upfront pay and they still wanted to work. What do you think the logical reaction would be when they leave after agreeing to that.

with the money not doing the job for her.
A long list. Coincidence?

Nope.

Anyway, Eliseu, he will save the day.

K.

DomeSFX
12-06-2009, 02:30 AM
BTW, I think Josh Hoopes is still around. I posted an ad, and just got a reply from "Ron Runstrom", which I believe is one of his aliases. Just an FYI warning.

I've seen that name before.

DomeSFX
12-06-2009, 02:34 AM
Any artist that thinks the script is a problem should have backed out of the project with any payment refunded. I don't care how bad the script is that is never an accuse for walking away with someone's money. NEVER. Any artist that even brings up the script as a justification for taking someone's money isn't someone you want to work with.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Never pay anyone up front unless they have a well established reputation that you can personally verify. There are too many scams to foolish throw out your money on unproven talent (see the Josh Hoopes/Art Adams scam).

I work with any where from 2-10 artists in any given month and they all get paid after work is delivered. Some times that's after 1 page, 4 pages, but most times it's after the story is complete (8-12 pages). All that I work with agree to those conditions because there is no other option. There is enough talent out there that I'm willing to walk away and find someone else (and have).

I've been burned and there are a few artists out there that owe me pages that I paid for. With my method after 5 years, I've loss less than $100 on artists.

I've paid 50% of the money he was suppose to get up front. It's still a lost, but I made sure to keep myself safe.

Scribbly
12-06-2009, 02:35 AM
Piriz? I'm not sure if it is his real name.

K.

Sebastian Piriz, DomeSFX have a call for you.

:slap:

DomeSFX
12-06-2009, 02:41 AM
Sebastian Piriz, DomeSFX have a call for you.

:slap:

You know the guy? Don't me he is a well known. I swear, I will scream if he is.

Scribbly
12-06-2009, 02:47 AM
You know the guy? Don't me he is a well known. I swear, I will scream if he is.
I know about him in the same way that I knew about you.
And as far I learned of him, hes a very talented and respectful artist.

Maybe, we should hear his side of the story as well.

DomeSFX
12-06-2009, 02:56 AM
I know about him in the same way that I knew about you.

Messageboard?

And as far I learned of him, hes a very talented and respectful artist.

Maybe, we should hear his side of the story as well.

His computer supposely went down, yet I can still find him online sometimes or I get an email. I was suppose to get some picture in November. It's December and I wanted to finished by January for a send off. I got similar treatment from previous artist before the email went silent when I ask for a deadline.

It's a 5 page graphic novel that is going to be black and white. A fantasy/western that I've been trying to get published for years. The story was well-received by a children 10 and up in novel form (sold some copies at a barbershop), but I need to see how it does in novel. If it gets picked up, we'll do 45 to 95 more pages. If you speaking to him, you should get a similar story.

But I didn't come here to out an artist, but to find out what I should do after being burned by a professional.

L Jamal
12-06-2009, 11:30 AM
But I didn't come here to out an artist, but to find out what I should do after being burned by a professional.
Then why'd you out him after you got your information?
Do you really think Scribbly is going to help after blaming the artist leaving the project on the script?

Mark Bertolini
12-06-2009, 02:59 PM
To be completely honest here, if Dome is a writer, I can see why an artist would drop out of a project with you. You can't even be bothered to have your spelling and grammar correct in your posts.

A professional writer should try and act professional at all times. You have no excuse for being sloppy. It's laziness, pure and simple. I consider myself a professional writer, and as such, take care and pride in making sure my posts and threads (for the most part) are coherent and written properly. After seeing your mish-mashed posts that make little-to-no sense, I wouldn't want to work on a script of yours either.

Sorry you got burned, but it happens to all of us. Suck it up, move on, and keep working.

And as an aside, I have a beef I need to air: take a look at the Help Wanted forums. Look at some of those posts. "Writer seeking 13 artists to work on some ideas, no pay, maybe I'll self-publish or something."

Does anyone really think that sounds appealing to an artist? Like there's going to be a lineup of artist ready to start banging out work for you based on some half-assed proposition of...something? It makes no sense. Before you post an ad looking for work, make sure you know what you're looking for. Be specific. Don't cast a net looking for a dozen artists to work on every idea you've had over the past 10 years. Pick one thing. Unless you're one of the elite Marvel or DC writers, don't push your luck and try to work eight different things at once. That's a sure way to lose focus on all of them. Pick one thing, stick to it, get a collaborative effort together, and keep pounding away on that one thing. You don't need to waste multiple people's time by simultaneously working on a dozen projects.

Get one thing done. Get that one thing published, get your name known, and then get to work on the next thing.

Mark Bertolini
12-06-2009, 03:03 PM
Just to point something out: there are creators here who can run multiple concurrent projects. I don't deny that. It's when I see that post looking for numerous artists, and the poster's count is less than 10, that's when I see it as a problem.
Guys like Jamal can work on multiple projects at the same time, but Jamal is a proven creator. He's not like the rest of us no-names. And he's a professional, and his advice should be taken to heart on most matters concerning the creation of comic books.
If your still looking for your first big break, then pick your best idea and focus on it like a laser. It will work better for you.

citizentim
12-06-2009, 05:34 PM
And as an aside, I have a beef I need to air: take a look at the Help Wanted forums. Look at some of those posts. "Writer seeking 13 artists to work on some ideas, no pay, maybe I'll self-publish or something."



Mark, I'm buying you a beer one of these days for that one.

Here's another: Don't use the effin' "smiles" in your help wanted ad. Really, if you can't convey what you're trying to say without using an emoticon, you aren't a writer.

RonaldMontgomery
12-06-2009, 05:39 PM
Mark, I'm buying you a beer one of these days for that one.

Here's another: Don't use the effin' "smiles" in your help wanted ad. Really, if you can't convey what you're trying to say without using an emoticon, you aren't a writer.


:happy: :happy: :happy: Right On!!!!! :happy: :happy: :happy:


:laugh:

:banana: It's peanut butter jelly time!!! Way oh way oh!!!! :banana:

citizentim
12-06-2009, 05:46 PM
:happy: :happy: :happy: Right On!!!!! :happy: :happy: :happy:


:laugh:

:banana: It's peanut butter jelly time!!! Way oh way oh!!!! :banana:


I buy Mark a beer and I now tell the bartender: "It's on Ron's tab."

RonaldMontgomery
12-06-2009, 05:48 PM
I buy Mark a beer and I now tell the bartender: "It's on Ron's tab."


A small price for the comic script archive.

j giar
12-06-2009, 05:49 PM
:happy: :happy: :happy: Right On!!!!! :happy: :happy: :happy:


:laugh:

:banana: It's peanut butter jelly time!!! Way oh way oh!!!! :banana:

Couldn't resist...could ya'?
And you overloaded the site...couldn't even post a frickin' smiley!

DomeSFX
12-06-2009, 11:14 PM
Then why'd you out him after you got your information?
Do you really think Scribbly is going to help after blaming the artist leaving the project on the script?

I didn't out him. Scribbly wanted to know his name and I gave it to him. I really don't care what he/she does at this point and it's not like I was asking Scribbly to do anything.

DomeSFX
12-06-2009, 11:29 PM
To be completely honest here, if Dome is a writer, I can see why an artist would drop out of a project with you. You can't even be bothered to have your spelling and grammar correct in your posts.

Whoa...when did this turn into a d#%khead contest? I just came here to get advice as to what I should do about my project not for you to judge my posts thinking the source of the problem was the writing. And let's not get into a topic about professionalism because no professional even remote talks in the way you do. I've talked to artist/writers like Fred Perry and Rob Liefeld for starters. None of them talk down to the people they were giving advice to. I can't judge every writer and artist I see here, but judging by your demeanor you're just another low-wage hack hanging the around the messageboards ripping into posters you consider whiners. I'm pretty you'll give me a story of how you got a job at DC so very long ago or some ego-stroking story. Yet, you can't explain why you aren't widely recognized by comicbooks fans or why you have a career that is in the gutter.

Yeah, I maybe an amatuer writer, but I'll lower my standards and intergity to sling mud at someone like a 4-year-old.

And as an aside, I have a beef I need to air: take a look at the Help Wanted forums. Look at some of those posts. "Writer seeking 13 artists to work on some ideas, no pay, maybe I'll self-publish or something."

You don't like it, then don't respond to it. I've seen post in the past were author (who was an artist) said the writer would get 10% of the gross on the comic, even the writer was to come up with the idea. That person won't go far as I've learned in my 11 years of trying to get into comics. At some point you're going to have to make a sacrifice, but getting to that point takes time and a lot of headaches as well as heartaches. Yet, you'll never see me make fun of some for starting out that way.

Does anyone really think that sounds appealing to an artist? Like there's going to be a lineup of artist ready to start banging out work for you based on some half-assed proposition of...something? It makes no sense. Before you post an ad looking for work, make sure you know what you're looking for. Be specific. Don't cast a net looking for a dozen artists to work on every idea you've had over the past 10 years. Pick one thing. Unless you're one of the elite Marvel or DC writers, don't push your luck and try to work eight different things at once. That's a sure way to lose focus on all of them. Pick one thing, stick to it, get a collaborative effort together, and keep pounding away on that one thing. You don't need to waste multiple people's time by simultaneously working on a dozen projects.

I'll say it once and I'll say it again. I highly doubt the professionals come looking here for talent. I'm not saying there isn't any talent here, but I doubt this is the first place they look. Most companies stick to what they know.

Biofungus
12-07-2009, 01:07 AM
I've talked to artist/writers like Fred Perry and Rob Liefeld for starters. None of them talk down to the people they were giving advice to.

You should ask Neal Adams for advice sometime ;)

chris stevens
12-07-2009, 02:10 AM
a few creators--guys who make books, real, good books-- have mentioned to me lately that dw is turning them off, or they're just checking it out and don't understand why i'm as positive about it as i am--these are the kind of threads that make them feel that way i think.

Scribbly
12-07-2009, 02:22 AM
You should ask Neal Adams for advice sometime ;)
That was very mean.
Bet that you personally know why. :p

Paul Sanderson
12-07-2009, 03:47 AM
Any artist that thinks the script is a problem should have backed out of the project with any payment refunded. I don't care how bad the script is that is never an accuse for walking away with someone's money. NEVER. Any artist that even brings up the script as a justification for taking someone's money isn't someone you want to work with.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Never pay anyone up front unless they have a well established reputation that you can personally verify. There are too many scams to foolish throw out your money on unproven talent (see the Josh Hoopes/Art Adams scam).

I work with any where from 2-10 artists in any given month and they all get paid after work is delivered. Some times that's after 1 page, 4 pages, but most times it's after the story is complete (8-12 pages). All that I work with agree to those conditions because there is no other option. There is enough talent out there that I'm willing to walk away and find someone else (and have).

I've been burned and there are a few artists out there that owe me pages that I paid for. With my method after 5 years, I've loss less than $100 on artists.

Best advice here. And I couldn't agree more.

DomeSFX
12-07-2009, 07:11 AM
Best advice here. And I couldn't agree more.

It was the most mature thing said and I'm taking the earlier advice. I'm just going to wait a while and assess my work.

L Jamal
12-07-2009, 07:49 AM
I'll say it once and I'll say it again. I highly doubt the professionals come looking here for talent. I'm not saying there isn't any talent here, but I doubt this is the first place they look. Most companies stick to what they know.
You'd be surprised.
There's a reason that a fair amount of DW talent ends up at Marvel and DC. Just because they aren't posting doesn't mean they aren't looking.

More often that not, this is where a lot of professionals send new talent to grow.

NaveenM
12-07-2009, 10:41 AM
a few creators--guys who make books, real, good books-- have mentioned to me lately that dw is turning them off, or they're just checking it out and don't understand why i'm as positive about it as i am--these are the kind of threads that make them feel that way i think.

Agreed. I don't understand why certain people use a thread as an opportunity to piss on someone else. It drags the whole board down.

L Jamal
12-07-2009, 11:39 AM
I didn't out him. Scribbly wanted to know his name and I gave it to him.
Isn't that exactly what outing is?

John Lees
12-07-2009, 12:21 PM
Hey folks. I've been more of a lurker than a poster in the community, but the subject matter of this thread caught my interest.

Over the past several months I've been developing a comic book project, and put an ad up here for it back in the summer. I got a load of replies, many from very talented artists, but eventually with great difficulty I chose the one I felt was the best. Then I made what, after reading this thread, seems to have been a big mistake: I paid them upfront.

Over 2 months went by and, a bit of concept art aside, there was no movement with the art, and very little in the way of communication from the artist. Eventually, I had no choice but to drop the artist from the project and begin to seek out a replacement. However, as it turned out, the dropped artist got back to me, and he'd been suffering from a string of personal and professional crises that had made doing the work simply impossible. He was very apologetic, and was quick to offer a full refund of my deposit. As such, I think we ended our collaboration on a good note, with no bridges burned, and under better circumstances, we might very well still be able to work together in future with something else.

We are in a relatively small community as comic creators, so I think it's important to try and establish a good reputation rather than making enemies. How you present yourself and, in the internet age, your online persona is in a lot of ways just as important as your actual talent. So I think it can be damaging to play "he said/she said" and start pointing fingers and accusing if a project falls apart. There's two sides to every story, as they say, so just because an artist doesn't deliver pages doesn't necessarily mean they are a scammer.

That said, the lesson I've learned is not to pay upfront. Though the particular artist I had to drop ended up being a decent guy who was happy to provide a refund, not everyone out there is as honest and upstanding as that. In another scenario, with another artist, I could have taken a big financial hit with that mistake. Fortunately, as it stands, the only thing I've lost is time.

Scribbly
12-07-2009, 12:31 PM
Isn't that exactly what outing is?

I dont know, but I think that if we came to the boards accusing somebody
of committing a felony, (and to run away with our money not doing an agreed job is so.)

At least, the accuser should be responsible for naming
the person or entity who did that to him/her.
In that way, everybody else can prevent himself or herself of fell in the same trap or scam.

Just throwing a bomb, saying that someone scammed you is very serious.
Who did that? A publisher, a writer, an inker, an artist a colorist a letterer. Who?

When generalizing you are only creating pandemic uncertainty and distrust
among all the other people on the board who really are trying hard to do their best job and
creating good relationships with his recruiter/collaborators.

Also, outing individually the person who did that to you gives to the accused
the chances for expose his/her point of view on the subject.

If somebody is playing with your money, fair is to make it a little bit harder for him.
If he is not, you are lying to all us.
And you must to be responsible for what you said.


PS, If you want to pay upfront, pay only for the two-page sampler.
And discount these payments front the rest of the pages when the job gets done.
Safe for everyone.

bholliday
12-07-2009, 01:06 PM
You'd be surprised.
There's a reason that a fair amount of DW talent ends up at Marvel and DC. Just because they aren't posting doesn't mean they aren't looking.

More often that not, this is where a lot of professionals send new talent to grow.

Agreed, there was no need to take a big shot at this place as a whole! CB Cebulski, marvel talent co ordinator sited DW as a place for young aspiring creators to have their work noticed - id say he's pretty influential.

And claiming the big two stay with what they know is a very narrow view of the medium

L Jamal
12-07-2009, 01:14 PM
At least, the accuser should be responsible for naming
the person or entity who did that to him/her.
In that way, everybody else can prevent himself or herself of fell in the same trap or scam.
And thereby make themselves liable for a libel suit for any damages to the other party's reputation.


Just throwing a bomb, saying that someone scammed you is very serious. Who did that? A publisher, a writer, an inker, an artist a colorist a letterer. Who?
But this thread wasn't about the scammer, but rather about what to do when you are scammed and how to avoid being scammed


Also, outing individually the person who did that to you gives to the accused
the chances for expose his/her point of view on the subject.
Why would any one want to air private business in an open forum where anyone can chime in with their 2 cents? What would ever get resolved?

If somebody is playing with your money, fair is to make it a little bit harder for him.
It's not anyone's responsibility to keep any one from getting work. Your only responsibility is to seek reimbursement. Once that is received you move on. If you're not willing to seek reimbursement via legal channels, then learn your lesson and protect yourself in the future,


The best way to protect the community from bad actors is to be part of the community and solicit work from other members of the community that you have working relationships with. However, that involves you being an active member of the community and not someone sitting on the sidelines waiting to take advantage of the community that others have built.

citizentim
12-07-2009, 04:01 PM
You'd be surprised.
There's a reason that a fair amount of DW talent ends up at Marvel and DC. Just because they aren't posting doesn't mean they aren't looking.

More often that not, this is where a lot of professionals send new talent to grow.


echo.
I know of a few eyes on this site-- lurking mostly.
Since this thread is sort of derailing and going all over the place, I thought I'd bring up one more bone to pick: Take care with what you decide to post on the 'ole Internet. It doesn't take much for a potential employer or client to push "view all posts" to get an idea of who you are-- (at least your precieved internet personality)

Creator bashing is not a smart idea: so, you hate "Big Time Artist X" and think you can draw better than him. Well, what if you were offered the chance to fill-in on an issue of "Big Time X Comic"? Would you take it? My guess is, for the page rate and exposure, any artist on this board would.

Well, if someone from "Artist X"s camp has decided to cull some new talent and takes a look at your stuff and likes it-- chances are they're going to do a quick google search on you: Hey, guess what they just found: 18 pages of you ranting about how he sucks.

Goodbye opportunity.

I know of at least one dude with Marvel dreams who will never get in the door. Why? Because he's an asshole. Editors are aware of him and he'll never get past reception because of inflammatory message board posts.

It's a fairly small community; you don't like a dude's art: fine, keep your opinion off the messageboards. You want to be a pro, be supportive of other pros. No one likes an opinionated asshole.

I know this is screaming into the rain, but whatever, maybe someone reading this will think twice about their "Writer/Artist X sux!" post.

RonaldMontgomery
12-07-2009, 04:14 PM
I too know of someone who's talented and ambitious, but who has burned bridges with pros because they choose not to take constructive feedback.

And the sad thing is...this person will never know it. People don't have to give you a second chance in life, and they usually don't. They make a call on you and move on.

Mark Bertolini
12-07-2009, 04:14 PM
Yeah, looks like I derailed this thread, so I apologize.

However, some valid points have come up here.

First off, I apologize to Dome if what I wrote offended him. But my point still stands: re-read every post you've written in this thread. There are blatant misspellings and entire words left out. That should be like nails on a chalkboard to a writer. I can't get over it.

Second: there are plenty, plenty of guys on here who've "struck it big". The man who created and owns this website is one of them. Do you really think Ed needs to keep running DW? Probably not. He gets lots of pro work, I see it on the shelves almost weekly, but he's still here providing a resource of pros and amateurs alike. I don't think DW gets nearly as much public discussion and respect as it should. That's my opinion.

Third: it seems like once a month there's a new thread about someone getting burned by an artist (or whatever the situation actually turns out to be). Can we maybe make a sticky about it? I know people have posted links to certains sites where you can report things like this. If we had a sticky for it, we could just direct people to it when they feel they've been shafted.

And again, it happens to everyone, and will probably happen to everyone again. Best advice is Jamal's advice: don't pay for stuff up front. It's like he said: do you pay the plumber ahead of time? Do you pay for your car repairs ahead of time? There's reasons for that, right?

Cheers.

citizentim
12-07-2009, 04:34 PM
Yeah, looks like I derailed this thread, so I apologize.



Eh, like that Crestmere post from a month or so ago, this thing turned into a megathread. I actually tend to think that derailed threads are more informative than the typical Question/Answer threads. Particularly in light of the fact that ten of those answers will conflict each other anyhow.

Biofungus
12-07-2009, 09:50 PM
Not to step on any toes here, but I think it'd be easier to make a sticky of people on DW who *are* reliable to work with (seems there are a lot fewer of those than the ones who are flaking on projects ;))

L Jamal
12-07-2009, 10:41 PM
I think the reliable people just don't get the same attention.
I've work with far more reliable artists than unreliable artists and I've worked with reliable artist that have become unreliable and unreliable artists that were reliable for me.

Eliseu Gouveia
12-07-2009, 11:13 PM
the lesson I've learned is not to pay upfront


Dont wanna rain on you parade, but the upfront payment thing is one of the ways I separate the fakes who want pages for free from true creators who take their project seriously.

Scribbly
12-08-2009, 12:04 AM
And thereby make themselves liable for a libel suit for any damages to the other party's reputation.
And what is the moral of this?
That someone can steal your money and you can not even out name him
for fear of his reaction and the consequences?
And why should be anyone afraid of being liable for a libel suit when
you are saying the truth and you can prove it in Court?
A Judge can determine in five minutes whos guilty and whos not.
And who should pay for the damages.

Is not likely that the first one who goes filling a suit is
the one who will win the argument.
Is Josh Hoopes going to fill a lawsuit against the ones who outnamed him?
I dont think so.
But this thread wasn't about the scammer, but rather about what to do when you are scammed and how to avoid being scammed
How to avoid being scammed? What to do? She already was scammed. Wasnt she?
Why would any one want to air private business in an open forum where anyone can chime in with their 2 cents? What would ever get resolved?
Because he/she meet the alleged scammer in the same forum?
We can become scammed but not allowed to say who did that?

It's not anyone's responsibility to keep any one from getting work. Your only responsibility is to seek reimbursement. Once that is received you move on. If you're not willing to seek reimbursement via legal channels, then learn your lesson and protect yourself in the future,
Again, what is the moral of this?
Just to let other people to be scammed as you did and feel afraid of doing or saying anything about?
-Life is very hard sometimes, isnt it dear Oliver?
_Yes, mister Faging, I guess so.

The best way to protect the community from bad actors is to be part of the community and solicit work from other members of the community that you have working relationships with. However, that involves you being an active member of the community and not someone sitting on the sidelines waiting to take advantage of the community that others have built.
Partially agree with it. Because not everybody has the same capacity for being aware of who is who.
I take at least one year to find out your own answers about it.
More likely that at the all the newcomers came here looking for job, for
someone who can do a job for them or for exchange of news and information
about comics. Or for mere curiosity, as I did.
The only ones taking advantage of the others ignorance and good intents
are the scammers and thieves.
And I don't like them.
I know, it is something personal.

Mark Bertolini
12-08-2009, 02:34 AM
Not to step on any toes here, but I think it'd be easier to make a sticky of people on DW who *are* reliable to work with (seems there are a lot fewer of those than the ones who are flaking on projects ;))


Oh no, I didn't mean create a sticky naming all the unreliable creators, I meant a sticky detailing what to do in case you get scammed, like links to those websites where you can go and out the scammer (someone posted them in the last thread of this kind).
Just because these threads seem to pop up at least once a month, and unfortunately, they'll probably continue to happen.

John Lees
12-08-2009, 08:24 AM
Dont wanna rain on you parade, but the upfront payment thing is one of the ways I separate the fakes who want pages for free from true creators who take their project seriously.

Yeah, that's the Catch-22. At the time, my editor said that it was likely the offer of upfront payment that got me such a big response in the first place. But after the near-miss of my last experience, and the abundance of "If you pay upfront it's your own fault you lost your money, dummy" comments on here, I'd say holding off and paying for services rendered seems like the best option for protecting myself.

L Jamal
12-08-2009, 08:37 AM
And what is the moral of this?
That someone can steal your money and you can not even out name him
for fear of his reaction and the consequences?
Any private deal should remain private. Hearing one side of a dispute doesn't give us an unbiased account and never have we heard the opposing side. There are many reasons why someone would stop working without contact that are perfectly legitimate. I work on a regular basis with an artist that I may not hear from for 4-6 weeks at a time. Dome's basis for this thread is solely based on past experiences and fear. The total story has not been told.

And why should be anyone afraid of being liable for a libel suit when
you are saying the truth and you can prove it in Court?
A Judge can determine in five minutes whos guilty and whos not.
And who should pay for the damages.
Even if you're in the right court cases cost money and if you're complaining about losing a few dollars on an artist chances are you don't want to waste money fighting a civil law suit you could have avoided by keeping your mouth shut.

Is not likely that the first one who goes filling a suit is
the one who will win the argument.
Is Josh Hoopes going to fill a lawsuit against the ones who outnamed him?
I dont think so.
There's a different between a con artist scamming people and an artist in over his head. The difference is intent. Obviously, you don't see the difference.

How to avoid being scammed? What to do? She already was scammed. Wasnt she?
It's an acceptance of what's done being done and an attempt to learn from past mistakes. It's what adult's do. Maybe you don't understand because you go into every thread full of self-righteous and never stop to think about anything other than your point of view even if the answer is right in front of you.

Because he/she meet the alleged scammer in the same forum? We can become scammed but not allowed to say who did that?
If you ae chronicling your project from beginning to end on the forum like Chris Stevens has, then I see no problem with being honest about the progress as people are following the entirety of the endeavor.

If you drop in to post an ad and then go about your business until something bad happens, then it's your private business, so keep it they way and deal with it as a private matter.


Again, what is the moral of this?
Learn from past mistakes.
Strike deals that protect your assets.
Work within the community, be part of the community so that you are knowledgeable about the community.

I could build 5 teams from writer to letters filled with different creators all from Digital Webbing because I've been an active member of the community and know the members. Here we have someone claiming that they were scammed that doesn't know
1) where the person lives
2) there full name, or
3) a means of contacting him beyond email

How do you do business with any one without knowing at least 2 of those 3 pieces of information? Even if you are treating creating comics as a hobby, you have to have more information about your creative team than just their email address.


Partially agree with it. Because not everybody has the same capacity for being aware of who is who.
I take at least one year to find out your own answers about it.
More likely that at the all the newcomers came here looking for job, for
someone who can do a job for them or for exchange of news and information
about comics.
You get out what you put in. If you come to take advantage of what others have built, then you have contributed nothing to the community and are more likely to constantly get taken advantage of. Why is it that I can seek work from members of this community and never get burned? Maybe it's because I have a working knowledge of who to work with?


The only ones taking advantage of the others ignorance and good intents are the scammers and thieves.
And I don't like them.
I know, it is something personal.
And the only way to combat ignorance is knowledge. Scammers thrive on your greed and ignorance. They want you believe that the deal is too good to be true, so that you jump on it immediately without thinking. The only way to combat that is by doing due diligence. I was sent samples by Hoopes on many occasions and every time no matter how strong the samples, I was able to recognize that they were wrong because the styles were too different and some were obviously from artists I'd seen else where (like Zumel and the guy from Tek Jansen). It was knowledge of the community and comics that kept me from falling for the scam. If everyone equipped themselves with the same tools and stopped rushing to get projects out, we'd all be in a better place.

However, this isn't about a scammer. It's about an artist flaking on a project. There is no proof that it's a pattern of behavior or his intent. This is the problem with airing dirty laundry as everything is distorted as we rush to judgment with only 1/2 the story.

L Jamal
12-08-2009, 08:47 AM
Dont wanna rain on you parade, but the upfront payment thing is one of the ways I separate the fakes who want pages for free from true creators who take their project seriously.

Then you shouldn't deal with so many fakes.

If you don't have confidence in getting paid for your work, then walk away from the job.

I request payment upfront based upon my confidence with the creators and/or their budget. The smaller their budget the more likely I am to request payment up front. That's the price of me working at a cheaper rate.

MrGranger
12-08-2009, 09:45 AM
Jamal is right.
Don't pay artists upfront.
I've lost $$, live and learn.
Artists who don't want to do this would need to be working for Marvel/DC and I MUST have them. They give me their home address & #.
I can provide dozens of references on my payment history, so any artist who wants to weed out a fake would be best served to ask.
BTW...when I do work-for-hire myself, I expect to be paid on delivery just like everyone I deal with.

Listen. Don't argue with Jamal, he's right.

On the other hand, I don't have any problem with "outings". Without whistleblowers we would still be plagued by a few of the past scammers.

Scribbly
12-08-2009, 10:36 AM
=L Jamal]Any private deal should remain private. Hearing one side of a dispute doesn't give us an unbiased account and never have we heard the opposing side. There are many reasons why someone would stop working without contact that are perfectly legitimate. I work on a regular basis with an artist that I may not hear from for 4-6 weeks at a time. Dome's basis for this thread is solely based on past experiences and fear. The total story has not been told.
That's why I asked for the name of the artist.
He now can express his own side of the event. The other 1/2.

Saying that "an artist" scammed her on her money
is not just talking of a flaking.
And it put all the artists under suspicion.

How the people know is not the artist to whom they already sent the upfront payment? Or are dealing with?
How do we know that this is a random situation or a pattern of behavior in the intent?

Do you remember of James? Until his name was outed here, no one was daring to say a word about it.
After that, a huge bunch of artists did start popping revealing that they got the same situation with him.

Is he going to make a law suit over the guy who outnamed him? I don't think so.
But all the Dwers are very grateful to that guy until now.

Thanks to Misteraxis and Dismas.
(Not only elephants have memory.)
Even if you're in the right court cases cost money and if you're complaining about losing a few dollars on an artist chances are you don't want to waste money fighting a civil law suit you could have avoided by keeping your mouth shut.
Really. This is your position? OK.
There's a different between a con artist scamming people and an artist in over his head. The difference is intent. Obviously, you don't see the difference.
Of course I can see it. Happen that by this time the name outed is of an artist
with good reputation and talent, who can bare the situation very well, not even saying a word.
But what if the name was Johs Hoppes or someone of the similar?
It's an acceptance of what's done being done and an attempt to learn from past mistakes. It's what adult's do. Maybe you don't understand because you go into every thread full of self-righteous and never stop to think about anything other than your point of view even if the answer is right in front of you.
Well. I am a professional artist myself. I worked for top book publishers
and animation studios. And advertisement companies.
Also, Ive worked for comics publishers from Europe and America,
personally or under Studio system.
And I never, ever was scammed for any of them.
(Well paid, bad paid, or not paid, but never scammed.)
And I was scammed for a guy who was very professional in here.
And I was totally confident.
He was asking for artists and offering a good deal.
He knew exactly what to say.
And after almost a year lurking the site, I thought that working with him was safe. Silly me.
I didn't know. Until I knew.

Back to the present situation, we all can figure out what happened between Dome and Sebastian.
Yes, we all have an intelligent perception.
If you ae chronicling your project from beginning to end on the forum like Chris Stevens has, then I see no problem with being honest about the progress as people are following the entirety of the endeavor.
If you drop in to post an ad and then go about your business until something bad happens, then it's your private business, so keep it they way and deal with it as a private matter.OK.
You are the moderator. Agree.
Learn from past mistakes.
Strike deals that protect your assets.
Work within the community, be part of the community so that you are knowledgeable about the community.
I could build 5 teams from writer to letters filled with different creators all from Digital Webbing because I've been an active member of the community and know the members. Here we have someone claiming that they were scammed that doesn't know
1) where the person lives
2) there full name, or
3) a means of contacting him beyond email

How do you do business with any one without knowing at least 2 of those 3 pieces of information? Even if you are treating creating comics as a hobby, you have to have more information about your creative team than just their email address.
Again, you are a moderator; you can reach things in a different way that a newcomer can do.
You get out what you put in. If you come to take advantage of what others have built, then you have contributed nothing to the community and are more likely to constantly get taken advantage of. Why is it that I can seek work from members of this community and never get burned? Maybe it's because I have a working knowledge of who to work with?Answer above.
And the only way to combat ignorance is knowledge. Scammers thrive on your greed and ignorance. They want you believe that the deal is too good to be true, so that you jump on it immediately without thinking. The only way to combat that is by doing due diligence. I was sent samples by Hoopes on many occasions and every time no matter how strong the samples, I was able to recognize that they were wrong because the styles were too different and some were obviously from artists I'd seen else where (like Zumel and the guy from Tek Jansen). It was knowledge of the community and comics that kept me from falling for the scam. If everyone equipped themselves with the same tools and stopped rushing to get projects out, we'd all be in a better place.
Different styles dont mean anything sometimes.
It could be an agent working with a bunch of different artists.
Or an artist working with different assistants in a Studio system.
Or an artist working different styles. You can go to my website and see how many styles I can work.
For the newcomers that are not artists , all looks the same.
Of course they know what they like better.
However, this isn't about a scammer. It's about an artist flaking on a project. There is no proof that it's a pattern of behavior or his intent. This is the problem with airing dirty laundry as everything is distorted as we rush to judgment with only 1/2 the story.
This is about a person accusing that an artist flaked in her project taking her money away.
Not a merely flaking. IMHO.
And by now we all have our own opinions on the matter.

And Jlamal, no problem, your position as moderator
is very clever, we all can understand that.

Have a great day.

Justice41
12-08-2009, 10:46 AM
Yeah, that's the Catch-22. At the time, my editor said that it was likely the offer of upfront payment that got me such a big response in the first place. But after the near-miss of my last experience, and the abundance of "If you pay upfront it's your own fault you lost your money, dummy" comments on here, I'd say holding off and paying for services rendered seems like the best option for protecting myself.
Until someone proves themselves reliable why would you pay them upfront? My suggestion is instead of payment upfront, offer a pack of Eon Boards (http://eonprod.com/cms/) and Return postage from Fedex or whichever company, so that the prospective artist will have no excuse for not doing the work and returning the artwork. Well they could, but at least all you'll be out is the cost of paper and shipping. The return postage can be cancelled. Force the artists to prove themselves. Make them earn your trust. Gotta be hardnosed sometimes.

Buckyrig
12-08-2009, 10:59 AM
Didn't you put up a link once to an escrow service that handles this kind of thing, Justice?

Justice41
12-08-2009, 11:10 AM
Didn't you put up a link once to an escrow service that handles this kind of thing, Justice?
Yeah but for the life of me I wouldn't remember it if you waterboarded me. I believe it was Paypal or an eBay affiliated company. I also made a suggestion as a possible service creation for someone to start up a comics only pay and delivery support service.

NewBabyProd
12-08-2009, 03:42 PM
Yeah but for the life of me I wouldn't remember it if you waterboarded me. I believe it was Paypal or an eBay affiliated company. I also made a suggestion as a possible service creation for someone to start up a comics only pay and delivery support service.
I would fully support such a service, as I also have had trouble with artists a couple of times.

Biofungus
12-08-2009, 05:48 PM
One thing bugging me a bit here, I'd just like to clear up:

Scribbly, we've already established several pages back that Dome is a "he" :laugh:

ponyrl
12-08-2009, 06:13 PM
One thing bugging me a bit here, I'd just like to clear up:

Scribbly, we've already established several pages back that Dome is a "he" :laugh:
Bio, MASTER of details!

:D