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jmassie
06-16-2009, 10:24 AM
I stopped reading X-men in 1991 right after Claremont left. I pick it up every once in a while...I dug Morrison's run. I was stoked to hear about Claremont doing X-men Forever, a sort of what if type book. He kind of just picks up where X-men #3 left off. I really enjoyed it. I'm a sucker for the old school stuff. The prospect of a bi-monthly book appeals to me also. The problem a lot of people have with his stuff (the wordiness) seems to be under control in this as well. Did anyone else check this out?

Eugene Selassie
06-16-2009, 11:09 AM
So disappointed.

I REALLY wanted to enjoy the concept, but the dialogue is so bad, he keeps repeating things like 6 or 7 times that we can clearly see for ourselves.
The Scott/Jean/Logan thing I have had my fill of for 10 lifetimes.

AND HOW THE HELL IS THIS A CONTINUATION OF X-Men #1-3????

jmassie
06-16-2009, 12:35 PM
Nostalgia aside I still really liked it. I grew up reading the Claremont stuff and it felt like that stuff. Superhero comics today take themselves so damn seriously, that this felt 'FUN' to read. The characters acted like the characters I remember. I also commend them for doing a Bi-monthly book. When I was a kid X-men always went Bi-Monthly every summer. It was awesome. Why is it so hard to buy it isn't a continuation exactly?

ronin7
06-16-2009, 12:48 PM
So disappointed.

I REALLY wanted to enjoy the concept, but the dialogue is so bad, he keeps repeating things like 6 or 7 times that we can clearly see for ourselves.
The Scott/Jean/Logan thing I have had my fill of for 10 lifetimes.

AND HOW THE HELL IS THIS A CONTINUATION OF X-Men #1-3????

He always repeated things that were clearly shown in the art. It was one of the stylistic writing impressions that he left on the medium during the late 70's up until the 00's when Bendis did away with thought balloons, and brought a more cinematic approach to the medium.

Also, this is a continuation of X-Men #1-#3 as he originally wrote the stories before Jim Lee's plot veto power took it in the direction we are all familiar with.

For some one who claims to read a lot of both of the Big Two. You certainly don't know jack about Marvel.

robbdaman
06-16-2009, 12:54 PM
Lots of writers started to move toward a more streamlined writing style, Claremont never could which is his downfall. Art nowadays tells the story well without needing to explain everything in every stupid panel like he does. He also has stupid fascinations with certain characters and makes lame ass stories with them that only he wants to read. He killed the Exiles readership so bad they had to kill his horrible creation and reboot it again in hopes to get them back. I think giving him his own title to retcon shit is stupid, we don't need another X title. I wish Marvel would stop slewing so much crappola and concentrate on quality instead of pumping out as many books as possible no matter how much they suck ass.

jmassie
06-16-2009, 01:02 PM
Something I've noticed lately re-reading some of that old X-men stuff, is just HOW MUCH story you can fit into a single issue, utilizing that writing style. If you read a single issue nowadays you can get through it in like 7 minutes. I understand why things are the way they are, with the trades and stuff, but back in the day you got your moneys worth on those single issues. If you read old Marvel stuff, something AMAZING happened EVERY issue. Every issue of anything Jack Kirby did was EPIC. I like that.

jmassie
06-16-2009, 01:06 PM
Lots of writers started to move toward a more streamlined writing style, Claremont never could which is his downfall. Art nowadays tells the story well without needing to explain everything in every stupid panel like he does. He also has stupid fascinations with certain characters and makes lame ass stories with them that only he wants to read. He killed the Exiles readership so bad they had to kill his horrible creation and reboot it again in hopes to get them back. I think giving him his own title to retcon shit is stupid, we don't need another X title. I wish Marvel would stop slewing so much crappola and concentrate on quality instead of pumping out as many books as possible no matter how much they suck ass.
Good point. But since things are streamlined, how can you keep these single issues alive? That style of writing only works when you get bigger chunks of story. If the formal aspects of the medium change the format has to evolve. Marvel and DC both need to say fuck single issues if you ask me.

Eugene Selassie
06-16-2009, 01:07 PM
He always repeated things that were clearly shown in the art. It was one of the stylistic writing impressions that he left on the medium during the late 70's up until the 00's when Bendis did away with thought balloons, and brought a more cinematic approach to the medium.

Also, this is a continuation of X-Men #1-#3 as he originally wrote the stories before Jim Lee's plot veto power took it in the direction we are all familiar with.

For some one who claims to read a lot of both of the Big Two. You certainly don't know jack about Marvel.

What are you, twelve?

Firstly, Bendis isn't the first writer to do away with thought balloons...so your god is not infallible.

Secondly, really???? This conversation had nothing to do with Bendis, yet you shoehorned him in, just as you shoehorn him into every conversation on here. Do you cup his balls while you jerk him off?

I've probably read more comics than you've ever known, so don't judge.

Finally...is there a reason you direct your douchebaggery at me? I've been nothing but civil in this and other forums, then you come in and start kicking up dirt looking for a confrontation. Please stop being a telephone tough guy. You know I'd break your fucking face if this conversation were taking place face to face.

Don't mistake decorum with cowardice.

robbdaman
06-16-2009, 01:15 PM
Good point. But since things are streamlined, how can you keep these single issues alive? That style of writing only works when you get bigger chunks of story. If the formal aspects of the medium change the format has to evolve. Marvel and DC both need to say fuck single issues if you ask me.

That is part of the problem, DC and Marvel don't want to evolve that much. Realistically how many new readers are there a month on any book? There isn't much of a reason to explain everything to the readers. On a side note yes they are basically killing the industry with oversaturation of books.

jmassie
06-16-2009, 01:30 PM
And check out how many Manga books are sold to new readers on a daily basis. Ten bucks or so for a shit load of story. Take note.

Eugene Selassie
06-16-2009, 01:39 PM
And check out how many Manga books are sold to new readers on a daily basis. Ten bucks or so for a shit load of story. Take note.

Excellent example.

Instead of doing Marvel Comics Presents as a monthly, what if they did a Manga sized quarterly?

jmassie
06-16-2009, 01:54 PM
The thing is if things do change as far as format goes...And some of these old writing styles are utilized...Think about how dense you can make these stories. A good example of that would be SUPERSPY by Matt Kindt. He uses everything in the comic storytelling arsenal over the course of like 300 pages. It felt like a novel. Well, as dense as one anyway. But everything was so well meshed, the art and writing. A very good book and great example of where comics are headed, I think.

L Jamal
06-16-2009, 03:12 PM
Excellent example.

Instead of doing Marvel Comics Presents as a monthly, what if they did a Manga sized quarterly?

Comic book stores would die.
The monthly format is what sustains 90% of comic book stores. Without the monthly issue driving traffic weekly into the stores, the stores would fail.

jmassie
06-16-2009, 03:36 PM
They need to evolve too. They can carry whatever they want to carry. If the format changed they would still have comics. Just different shaped/sized ones. I doubt monthly books sustain them. Most stores I go into nowadays are just hobby stores that have comics anyway.

Eugene Selassie
06-16-2009, 03:43 PM
Comic book stores would die.
The monthly format is what sustains 90% of comic book stores. Without the monthly issue driving traffic weekly into the stores, the stores would fail.

Re-read my post. I said do that w Marvel Comics Presents.

Do 2 stories as necessary evil (Spider Man and Wolverine). The rest w characters that don't have books.

L Jamal
06-16-2009, 03:53 PM
The monthly book guarantees regular traffic.
For readers/collectors comics are an addition that drives them to the store on a semi-weekly basis. Once you break that addiction, you force them to reconsider coming to the store. Less visits, less purchase, less stores

jmassie
06-16-2009, 03:58 PM
Well, things would still come out on the regular. Monthly books for various reasons, are DYING! I'm cool with it. They're not worth what they charge for them. Just continuing to rely on the same customers who read them isn't a way to keep your business going. That group is dwindling by the way, because of the price for that inferior product.

L Jamal
06-16-2009, 04:09 PM
Re-read my post. I said do that w Marvel Comics Presents.

Do 2 stories as necessary evil (Spider Man and Wolverine). The rest w characters that don't have books.
let's fill a book with filler stories about characters no one cares about... sounds like a winner.

Eugene Selassie
06-16-2009, 04:36 PM
let's fill a book with filler stories about characters no one cares about... sounds like a winner.

So...no one cared about

Captain Britain & MI:13?
Young Avengers?
Silver Surfer?....

No one?

L Jamal
06-16-2009, 04:57 PM
Clearly not enough people.
Do you think a book with them all with do better than a book with just one of them? Anthologies fail because the characters are not interesting to all of the audience of the book. You'd do better with Nightwing, Robin and Batman all in one book over Shadow, Cyborg, Blue Beetle and Superman.

Eugene Selassie
06-16-2009, 05:40 PM
Clearly not enough people.
Do you think a book with them all with do better than a book with just one of them? Anthologies fail because the characters are not interesting to all of the audience of the book. You'd do better with Nightwing, Robin and Batman all in one book over Shadow, Cyborg, Blue Beetle and Superman.

But there is clearly a VOCAL audience for these characters.

There is no need for another damn Bat-family, Super-family, Spider-family or X-book.

PERIOD.

Is it such a wild idea that maybe the fans who miss the Silver Surfer would read, and the cult like fanbase of MI:13 would read and the Young Avengers audience would read? And maybe their purchases...combined, that would warrant a book. Not even asking for a monthly, but a quarterly.

How could that possibly not do well?

BJCochran
06-16-2009, 06:33 PM
I really like that idea for a new Marvel Comics Presents series. But better than having Spider-man and Wolverine as headliners have a roster of 'platooning characters' to split the book. Here is a list I think would work:

Spidey, Wolverine, Cap, Iron Man, Thor, The Hulk, F4, and X-Men. Have these issues be around 32 pages (Not including ads). Those headliners will get 24 pages for a brand new story and then have a minor character whom the new fans (Cough BANDWAGONFANS Cough) don't know as a back up for 8 pages. So that way you can bring in new readers whom only experienced the movies (Reason for the roster above) and they can see if a backup story is a character they are interested in.

For instance with Spidey you can have a backup story featuring Spider-Girl.
Hulk -- Either She-Hulk or Pantheon
Iron Man -- War Machine (We all know his series will most likely be canned eventually)
F4 -- M:13
and so on and so forth.

The stories will all be stand alone to get new readers into comics while old fans will be happy to see some of these obscure backup characters get new stories (I would be for Pantheon). I actually really like this idea now that I've thought about it.

L Jamal
06-16-2009, 06:36 PM
Is it such a wild idea that maybe the fans who miss the Silver Surfer would read, and the cult like fanbase of MI:13 would read and the Young Avengers audience would read? And maybe their purchases...combined, that would warrant a book. Not even asking for a monthly, but a quarterly.

How could that possibly not do well?
Because the readers of each one would be buying a book with 2 other concepts they didn't want.

Would you pay to read 20 pages of Better Homes and Garden and O for every 20 pages of comics you read?

ronin7
06-16-2009, 08:28 PM
What are you, twelve?

Firstly, Bendis isn't the first writer to do away with thought balloons...so your god is not infallible.

Secondly, really???? This conversation had nothing to do with Bendis, yet you shoehorned him in, just as you shoehorn him into every conversation on here. Do you cup his balls while you jerk him off?

I've probably read more comics than you've ever known, so don't judge.

Finally...is there a reason you direct your douchebaggery at me? I've been nothing but civil in this and other forums, then you come in and start kicking up dirt looking for a confrontation. Please stop being a telephone tough guy. You know I'd break your fucking face if this conversation were taking place face to face.

Don't mistake decorum with cowardice.

Civil? You slam Marvel all the time, and troll these boards like the big, bad troll with an axe to grind. When I come over to the DC boards to express my dislike for the current directionless leadership, and bad story telling it's <i>you</i> who kick dirt in my face, and accuse me of trolling that board. Instead of provoking trouble, you could clearly do more by discussing what bothers you about Marvel's stable of writers works from a creative standpoint; rather then a fan one.





.

ronin7
06-16-2009, 08:29 PM
Because the readers of each one would be buying a book with 2 other concepts they didn't want.

Would you pay to read 20 pages of Better Homes and Garden and O for every 20 pages of comics you read?


Don't bother ljamal, he doesn't understand the marketing viewpoint.

MARS
06-16-2009, 08:44 PM
Instead of doing Marvel Comics Presents as a monthly, what if they did a Manga sized quarterly?


That would be great. Best idea ever on these boards maybe?

I have to disagree about the whole monthly traffic thing tho...I mean, really? I STILL have a digest sized version of Giant sized X-MEN #1. It's the shit!

I liken it to the Runaways digests...which are the shit as well btw. You can put it in your back pocket!

There's so many monthly books that will already do that for you so why not do a well put together anthology manga book that comes out quarterly?

It's all about experimenting with the story and the format. Comics need to evolve. And it needs more class. Being bound in a digest book format will do that...Shit, maybe then people who think "Graphic Novels" are comic books will ge tover themselves and feel better about saying i just recently purchased this lovely X-MEN digest sized anthology from Marvel and LOOK it's right there on the coffee table and doesn't look like a K-Mart supplement.

People LOVE these characters. They are going to follow them no matter what format you put them in. If you do it right and make it slick. Packaging would be key tho.

They will come and buy it.

SO for once i agree with Eugene. I don't think it would work with most of the Marvel U characters...

X-men
FF
Spidey and old school Avengers for sure.

But it would bring in new readers (again) because something in that type of format will be in book stores and available to all eyes. Not just the regular comic buyer going to the LCS.

It's a doable endeavor. Good thread.

M.

hellblazer72
06-16-2009, 09:30 PM
i just love the old the monthly format is dying , companies should just publish graphic novels instead arguement.. if you like trades then just wait for them nobodies telling anyone they have to buy monthly books and the feeling that the industry needs to change to fit how you buy books is ridiculous

L Jamal
06-16-2009, 09:33 PM
SO for once i agree with Eugene. I don't think it would work with most of the Marvel U characters...

Then you don't agree with Eugene because he's saying it should be done for the lesser characters.

L Jamal
06-16-2009, 09:41 PM
Don't bother ljamal, he doesn't understand the marketing viewpoint.
Too bad I understand the comic market and history enough to know that every mainstream comic anthology in the last 10 years has failed and/or lost money. Doesn't matter the subject or the creators, mainstream comic anthologies don't sell. Sometimes it's because the quality of the stories is poor. Sometimes it's because the readers don't care for the characters. Most of the time it's because the readers don't think they are getting their money's worth because they don't care for all the stories.

Now, I'm sure you have some great comic marketing plan that will revolutionize the industry, so please feel free to share it so I will be wowed by your awesomeness.

Now, I think Wednesday Comics is genius. It's format is unique and it has the right mix of creators and characters. However, there is no way to sustain such quality for the long run.

Moonrider
06-17-2009, 02:05 AM
Just to add, manga format only work on mangas. No, really. There are collected issues of Marvel Classics in manga B&W format circulating in Asia, and they did not sell well. To fit American comics in such anthologies means changing the way the panels are structured, the way it's paced, how it's written, where you leave your cliffhangers, everything. It's not just a format, it's a medium on its own.

Digest books are better, though. The Indian publisher Gotham Comics (ironic name, I know) have collected many Marvel Comics this way using cheaper papers and smaller size format, while keeping the books in its original language and in full color. Problem is, as a collected edition (and a better alternative to buying expensive trades and graphic novels) it may work but if you're looking to make anthologies of new issues using the same format, it's impossible. As ljamal said it will be hard to keep the quality up, considering the amount of time, money and effort to make even 22 pages of a monthly comic book.

ponyrl
06-17-2009, 03:54 AM
Too bad I understand the comic market and history enough to know that every mainstream comic anthology in the last 10 years has failed and/or lost money. Doesn't matter the subject or the creators, mainstream comic anthologies don't sell. Sometimes it's because the quality of the stories is poor. Sometimes it's because the readers don't care for the characters. Most of the time it's because the readers don't think they are getting their money's worth because they don't care for all the stories.

Now, I'm sure you have some great comic marketing plan that will revolutionize the industry, so please feel free to share it so I will be wowed by your awesomeness.

Now, I think Wednesday Comics is genius. It's format is unique and it has the right mix of creators and characters. However, there is no way to sustain such quality for the long run.
American comic anthologies. Just to help you narrow the field. ;)

1 comic anthology has been going strong for awhile.

JamieRoberts
06-17-2009, 04:46 AM
So... is X-Men Forever any good?

L Jamal
06-17-2009, 08:41 AM
American comic anthologies. Just to help you narrow the field. ;)

1 comic anthology has been going strong for awhile.
Silly me, I thought with all the references to American characters it was obvious we were talking about American books. :p

And what is this American anthology that you speak of?

jmassie
06-17-2009, 09:48 AM
So... is X-Men Forever any good?

I liked it. But, I'm old.

Eugene Selassie
06-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Because the readers of each one would be buying a book with 2 other concepts they didn't want.

Would you pay to read 20 pages of Better Homes and Garden and O for every 20 pages of comics you read?

If thats the only place where I could read it, yes I would.

Eugene Selassie
06-17-2009, 12:25 PM
Civil? You slam Marvel all the time, and troll these boards like the big, bad troll with an axe to grind. When I come over to the DC boards to express my dislike for the current directionless leadership, and bad story telling it's <i>you</i> who kick dirt in my face, and accuse me of trolling that board. Instead of provoking trouble, you could clearly do more by discussing what bothers you about Marvel's stable of writers works from a creative standpoint; rather then a fan one.





.

I've stated what the problems are.

Its once again becoming where two or three people have control of the entire universe and all other writers have to alter their books to cater to that vision.
I'd be ok with that if this were say, Neil Gaiman or BKV doing Dr Strange and maybe Ghost Rider and MI:13 were following suit. That makes sense.
But we have for example, the X-franchise getting constantly forced into storylines because of Bendis (Decimation, Dark Reign, etc...) Then you have shit like the X-books promptly ignoring House of M for like three years, or Emma Frost now associating with villains, COMPLETELY undoing all of the work that Lobdell, Morrison and Whedon did with the character.
How about letting the X-universe forge its own destiny.

If he's going to wreck the Avengers universe, fine. Don't give him free reign to alter the ENTIRE Marvel U as he sees fit. His writing proves he's completely incapable of handling like 85% of Marvel's characters.

Eugene Selassie
06-17-2009, 12:43 PM
And trust me Ronin, I give DC its fair share of shit.

The falsehoods of the "We're going to give Wonder Woman major publicity when the animated DVD and the current Rise of the Olympian storyline come out so she will truly feel as important as Superman and Batman."

NEVER HAPPENED.

Jim Shooter not given a chance to finish his kick ass Legion of Super Heroes run because of the nauseating nostalgia by the higher ups.

The botched Flash and Wonder Woman relaunches.

The refusal to renumber Wonder Woman to its old numbering.

Making Barbara Gordon Batgirl again.

Not letting Greg Rucka/Eric Trautmann finish their kick ass volume of Checkmate...instead letting Bruce Jones write it????

Not knowing what the hell to do with Aquaman.

The current volume of JLA...an embarassment...but people still buy it, no matter how bad it is, so can't completely blame DC for this one.

jmassie
06-17-2009, 12:58 PM
I've stated what the problems are.

Its once again becoming where two or three people have control of the entire universe and all other writers have to alter their books to cater to that vision.
I'd be ok with that if this were say, Neil Gaiman or BKV doing Dr Strange and maybe Ghost Rider and MI:13 were following suit. That makes sense.
But we have for example, the X-franchise getting constantly forced into storylines because of Bendis (Decimation, Dark Reign, etc...) Then you have shit like the X-books promptly ignoring House of M for like three years, or Emma Frost now associating with villains, COMPLETELY undoing all of the work that Lobdell, Morrison and Whedon did with the character.
How about letting the X-universe forge its own destiny.

If he's going to wreck the Avengers universe, fine. Don't give him free reign to alter the ENTIRE Marvel U as he sees fit. His writing proves he's completely incapable of handling like 85% of Marvel's characters.

I like you. You speak the truth.

MARS
06-17-2009, 12:59 PM
Then you don't agree with Eugene because he's saying it should be done for the lesser characters.

SOrta but i still agree with him... I think that IF done right you can mix and match lesser names with bigger name characters to create alil somethin something for everyone to get into to.

M.

Eugene Selassie
06-17-2009, 01:14 PM
SOrta but i still agree with him... I think that IF done right you can mix and match lesser names with bigger name characters to create alil somethin something for everyone to get into to.

M.

I owe you a beer Mars.
:har:

MARS
06-17-2009, 01:23 PM
i just love the old the monthly format is dying , companies should just publish graphic novels instead arguement.. if you like trades then just wait for them nobodies telling anyone they have to buy monthly books and the feeling that the industry needs to change to fit how you buy books is ridiculous


I dunno. I just think trades and digest formats are the future. That along with webcomics apparently. I felt the same way about them and they are still here and seemingly getting stronger with appeal.

I think it's time to get Comics more of a distinguished appeal and i feel that is done by putting it into a book-bound format instead of a 'zine which seems to be going the way of the dinosaur if webcomics has it's way ( which ultimately it will i do believe.)

Personally...I don't buy monthlies because

A. I don't have the time to track them down. Scheduling shifts and holiday shipping dates moving around it's a hassle for someone who digs comics and wants the books when they want them. I can read the storylines continuously thru wihout having to wait.

B. Space. I don't know about everyone else but i don't have the homespace for tons and tons of books anymore. Trades and digest fit very nicely on my bookshelves...Comics aren't about collecting anymore but it's about the artform and entertainment.

C. They look way better on my coffee table than a crapload of magazines.

D. I just keep thinking professionally as a creator how awesome it would be to know you are on THIS project for THIS long with THIS much leadway time to really get down and dirty on a project. I would know the whole story and have more time to develope an association with characters. There would be more time to add things that i wouldn't have the time to do on a monthly book because it's so on the fly schedule-wise at times it's ridiculaz.

You could save these BIG books for BIG events. That alone would get sales. I can totally see it. Marvel would hype it up and get great creative teams on it together and the stories can actually read more like novels.

My opinions mind you. The internet wpould keep the integrity of the serialized format.

M.

MARS
06-17-2009, 01:33 PM
I owe you a beer Mars.
:har:

Fuck yeah dude.

But yeah... It's funny because every con i sit here before and go thru my nonsense of days gone by and there's tons of crap from old pitches to the powers that be.

The X-Men by far has the universe in place to have secondary characters become a point of interest. If it's a good story it can be that characters defining moment. Period.

I mean who ever thought that Spider Woman would be interesting. Xorn. Husk. Mr.Sinster. The Hellfire Club. Monet. Forge. shit...even Gateway for example could be good...gotta give it love man.

Every character has a good story in them. Just takes the right story and approach to get it out of them.

And badass art of coarse.

Always with the badass art.

Peace.



M.

Eugene Selassie
06-17-2009, 01:38 PM
Fuck yeah dude.

But yeah... It's funny because every con i sit here before and go thru my nonsense of days gone by and there's tons of crap from old pitches to the powers that be.

The X-Men by far has the universe in place to have secondary characters become a point of interest. If it's a good story it can be that characters defining moment. Period.

I mean who ever thought that Spider Woman would be interesting. Xorn. Husk. Mr.Sinster. The Hellfire Club. Monet. Forge. shit...even Gateway for example could be good...gotta give it love man.

Every character has a good story in them. Just takes the right story and approach to get it out of them.

And badass art of coarse.

Always with the badass art.

Peace.



M.

HOLY SHIT!!!

A book similar to the show Dirty Sexy Money...but with the Hellfire Club.

hellblazer72
06-17-2009, 02:35 PM
I dunno. I just think trades and digest formats are the future. That along with webcomics apparently. I felt the same way about them and they are still here and seemingly getting stronger with appeal.

I think it's time to get Comics more of a distinguished appeal and i feel that is done by putting it into a book-bound format instead of a 'zine which seems to be going the way of the dinosaur if webcomics has it's way ( which ultimately it will i do believe.)

Personally...I don't buy monthlies because

A. I don't have the time to track them down. Scheduling shifts and holiday shipping dates moving around it's a hassle for someone who digs comics and wants the books when they want them. I can read the storylines continuously thru wihout having to wait.

B. Space. I don't know about everyone else but i don't have the homespace for tons and tons of books anymore. Trades and digest fit very nicely on my bookshelves...Comics aren't about collecting anymore but it's about the artform and entertainment.

C. They look way better on my coffee table than a crapload of magazines.

D. I just keep thinking professionally as a creator how awesome it would be to know you are on THIS project for THIS long with THIS much leadway time to really get down and dirty on a project. I would know the whole story and have more time to develope an association with characters. There would be more time to add things that i wouldn't have the time to do on a monthly book because it's so on the fly schedule-wise at times it's ridiculaz.

You could save these BIG books for BIG events. That alone would get sales. I can totally see it. Marvel would hype it up and get great creative teams on it together and the stories can actually read more like novels.

My opinions mind you. The internet wpould keep the integrity of the serialized format.

M.

A. you're trying to get the comic industry to fit your schedule and preference

B. if you don't have space then just keep buying trades.

C. yes they do look rather nice, when they don't fall apart on you

D. and here's where it falls apart...

marvel/dc give their creative teams 8 months to complete a trade, which should be enough time to get 6 issues of material done. and within that 8 months the artist is offered a better book by another company, gets terminally ill, breaks his hand, or dies then the company has to find a replacement..now this would probably result in lower sales, because 1/4 of the book is by one artist and the rest is by an artist that might not be up to the skill of the first artist.. for example 1/4 of the book is by bryan hitch and the rest is by greg land..there would be alot of people that would pass on the book because 20 bucks is alot of money to spend on a few bryan hitch pages.. companies would have to find a repacement because if they scrap the project or start it over then they lost the money the already paid the artist.

also you want companies to pay creative teams for projects that are not coming out for 8 months( and as everyone knows some artist will go over any deadline no matter how big) to a year...that's alot of time to wait to make money off of a book..so companies might go the other way and say we'll pay you once the jobs done, now that's 8 months of a creative team working for free..then you'd have a mass exodus of writers and artist leaving comics to work in animation, film and television..the influx of new talent will dwindle because no one can afford to work for free..so the next step would be for companies to hire high school and college kids to work for them or go back to monthlies then the big names would be in charge and can demand bigger page rates. because at this point the industry would need them more than they need them...so you can expect a price increase on monthlies and trades..

ronin7
06-17-2009, 05:11 PM
I've stated what the problems are.

Its once again becoming where two or three people have control of the entire universe and all other writers have to alter their books to cater to that vision.
I'd be ok with that if this were say, Neil Gaiman or BKV doing Dr Strange and maybe Ghost Rider and MI:13 were following suit. That makes sense.
But we have for example, the X-franchise getting constantly forced into storylines because of Bendis (Decimation, Dark Reign, etc...) Then you have shit like the X-books promptly ignoring House of M for like three years, or Emma Frost now associating with villains, COMPLETELY undoing all of the work that Lobdell, Morrison and Whedon did with the character.
How about letting the X-universe forge its own destiny.

If he's going to wreck the Avengers universe, fine. Don't give him free reign to alter the ENTIRE Marvel U as he sees fit. His writing proves he's completely incapable of handling like 85% of Marvel's characters.


You can't blame Bendis for Paul Cornell losing Captain Britain, and MI-13. That's like blaming Frank Miller's controversial, if somewhat dwindling success with ASBR for the negative buzz that Morrison has gotten over Final Crisis, and Batman R.I.P.

Readers are just automatically attracted to marquee characters like Spider-Man, the New/Dark Avengers, X-Men, etc.

Lesser characters just don't have that attraction, and it's been evident for at least 3, or so decades.


Also, most of the writing staff signed onto Dark Reign because they saw it as avenue to drum up buzz for their books. Evidently, it has since Dan Slott's Mighty Avengers has managed to remain in the number seven slot on the sales charts, which is a mystery to me. Since I strongly dislike what I have seen of Slott's Avengers.

MARS
06-17-2009, 08:33 PM
A. you're trying to get the comic industry to fit your schedule and preference

B. if you don't have space then just keep buying trades.

C. yes they do look rather nice, when they don't fall apart on you

D. and here's where it falls apart...

marvel/dc give their creative teams 8 months to complete a trade, which should be enough time to get 6 issues of material done. and within that 8 months the artist is offered a better book by another company, gets terminally ill, breaks his hand, or dies then the company has to find a replacement..now this would probably result in lower sales, because 1/4 of the book is by one artist and the rest is by an artist that might not be up to the skill of the first artist.. for example 1/4 of the book is by bryan hitch and the rest is by greg land..there would be alot of people that would pass on the book because 20 bucks is alot of money to spend on a few bryan hitch pages.. companies would have to find a repacement because if they scrap the project or start it over then they lost the money the already paid the artist.

also you want companies to pay creative teams for projects that are not coming out for 8 months( and as everyone knows some artist will go over any deadline no matter how big) to a year...that's alot of time to wait to make money off of a book..so companies might go the other way and say we'll pay you once the jobs done, now that's 8 months of a creative team working for free..then you'd have a mass exodus of writers and artist leaving comics to work in animation, film and television..the influx of new talent will dwindle because no one can afford to work for free..so the next step would be for companies to hire high school and college kids to work for them or go back to monthlies then the big names would be in charge and can demand bigger page rates. because at this point the industry would need them more than they need them...so you can expect a price increase on monthlies and trades..

My rebuttle over these delicious peanut M& M's

A- Yes. Yes I am. It should shouldn't it?

B- Yes.

C- Yes. Yes they do- Magazines get tossed. Books usually don't. It's also an allure type of thing. I think that the reason people "love" the Graphic Novels is that it seems more sophisticated for them. It being in a book format adds to that feeling... I feel it's more classy. This is how I feel. We can agree to disagree on that. But the people i know usually respond better to the book format.

If you did your own book and you had the choice of it being in a comicbook format or a Book format which would you do? It's a basic decision based on asthetic (sp?) really.

D- You bring up good points but i am talking from creator experience so it's my bag really. Opinion. whatever the case may be that would vary from person to person.

But i never said anything about getting paid in advance..Did i?

I think you are wrong about the leadway time. I could provide several examples of myself being tossed on a book because of one of the many things you did mention. But there certainly is no control there if you want to keep working. I was just merely stating that i feel you would get a better quality of story and product out of something that was not part of the daily grindhouse which is the monthly comicbok.

And 20 bucks isn't alot... It would actually be cheaper to get the trade then buy it on an issue by issue basis. You save!

Besides every time i hear that arguement i see more and more people every weds. pulling out hundred dollar bills for their pull list. So...no. I am not buying ( excuse the pun) you reasoning.

I also don't see why the same method of invoicing for finished pages wouldn't apply here that it does for the monthlies as well? I do pages. I invoice. I get paid. No worries. And actually...I personally would save my pennies and budget out myself to commit to an 6-8 month project knowing that i'd be seeing 50- 60 grand at the end of said project.

Um. Hell yeah. Sign me up. That's me paying my rent in advance and going on one sweet sweet sweet vacation at the end of that!

On the note of your human disaster scenario of hand breaking, the jumping of ships ect...What are the odds? That's what contracts are for right? I think Marvel and DC like to use the word "exclusive" alot when that comes up. I am pretty sure they have a handle on things.

ANd on the influx of talent dwindling...

really? How many times is this going to come up? If that was the case we wouldn't be having this conversation about a dead industry now would we?

There will always be talent and those who call NEXT!

I was basically recruited out of college...Animation Film school no less and i was given the opportunity to prove myself and stick with it and here i be. I don't think i'm going anywhere for awhile.

And the big names are usually in charge. That's why they are the "big names".

Ballers are usually the shot callers yo... And that's everywhere you go.

Good stuff.

Peace.

M.

hellblazer72
06-18-2009, 12:14 AM
i think we could go around and around on this topic, so i'll just say we'll just have to agree to disagree...and with that you bring up some intersting points..well played my good man

Eugene Selassie
06-19-2009, 11:20 AM
Evidently, it has since Dan Slott's Mighty Avengers has managed to remain in the number seven slot on the sales charts, which is a mystery to me. Since I strongly dislike what I have seen of Slott's Avengers.

As you and most of the higher ups at Marvel understandably assumed. There are more fans of classic Avengers than you realize.

The few LCS that I frequent all state they don't understand why New Avengers numbers are slipping so much and Mighty Avengers numbers are rising every month. Some said there was no audience for non-Bendis Avengers. The numbers show otherwise.

Eugene Selassie
06-19-2009, 11:25 AM
BTW, why do you hate Slott's Mighty Avengers.

I think it is MILES above the previous twenty issues.

Whether it is better than New Avengers is debatable, but it is DEFINITELY better than BMB's attempt at writing classic Avengers (Mighty #1-20)

ponyrl
06-19-2009, 11:42 PM
Silly me, I thought with all the references to American characters it was obvious we were talking about American books. :p

And what is this American anthology that you speak of?
Oh, I wasn't inferring that it was an american anthology.

Shonen Jump is what I meant.

My bad. :D

ronin7
06-20-2009, 11:14 AM
As you and most of the higher ups at Marvel understandably assumed. There are more fans of classic Avengers than you realize.

The few LCS that I frequent all state they don't understand why New Avengers numbers are slipping so much and Mighty Avengers numbers are rising every month. Some said there was no audience for non-Bendis Avengers. The numbers show otherwise.


It's not that. It's the high cost of New Avengers. $3.99 an issue is very steep for most people's pockets during this economic recession, and even otherwise Marvel is asking too much. Where Mighty Avengers is $2.99, so thereby it's more affordable. Plus, you have Marvel constantly releasing new books every month, which cuts into the top books that are costly's readership.

BTW, why do you hate Slott's Mighty Avengers.

I think it is MILES above the previous twenty issues.

Whether it is better than New Avengers is debatable, but it is DEFINITELY better than BMB's attempt at writing classic Avengers (Mighty #1-20)

Oh, really? I should enjoy Slott portraying Cassie as a juvenile whore, and an inexperienced whiney brat. Write Hank as even more psychotic then Jim Shooter wrote him, which includes splunking a robot that has his ex-wife's brain patterns. While also hinting that Hank is creating another robot to either embarrass his teammates, and make himself look good again, or kill his teammates in his disturbed state. Portray Hercules as even more of a jerk then he already is. And try to one up Bendis in showing what kind of asshole Reed is to his fellow scientific colleagues.

Yeah, obviously it's so hard to see why I hate Slott's Mighty Avengers. :rolleyes:

Eugene Selassie
06-21-2009, 11:11 AM
It's not that. It's the high cost of New Avengers. $3.99 an issue is very steep for most people's pockets during this economic recession, and even otherwise Marvel is asking too much. Where Mighty Avengers is $2.99, so thereby it's more affordable. Plus, you have Marvel constantly releasing new books every month, which cuts into the top books that are costly's readership.

BTW, why do you hate Slott's Mighty Avengers.

I think it is MILES above the previous twenty issues.

Whether it is better than New Avengers is debatable, but it is DEFINITELY better than BMB's attempt at writing classic Avengers (Mighty #1-20)

Oh, really? I should enjoy Slott portraying Cassie as a juvenile whore, and an inexperienced whiney brat. Write Hank as even more psychotic then Jim Shooter wrote him, which includes splunking a robot that has his ex-wife's brain patterns. While also hinting that Hank is creating another robot to either embarrass his teammates, and make himself look good again, or kill his teammates in his disturbed state. Portray Hercules as even more of a jerk then he already is. And try to one up Bendis in showing what kind of asshole Reed is to his fellow scientific colleagues.

Yeah, obviously it's so hard to see why I hate Slott's Mighty Avengers. :rolleyes:

I almost agree with how Cassie is handled...almost. But its too soon to say if thats faulty writing or if there's a reason for it within the subtext.

Although I hate how people write Hank as a wife beating jerk, I don't want Dan to erase it all and just make Hank white bread from here on out.
When Bendis' era is done, I don't want a magic wand to be waved and all be undone (Wanda's rediculous breakdown, mishandling of Pym/Danvers/Williams, killing Van Dyne, etc). I want to go through a progression of getting us back to classic. This is it.

Hercules? A jerk?? We've not read the same book. This is CLASSIC Hercules. His testosterone induced taunting of Ben Grimm. Him trying to get Hank to man up and take the reins of these crazy horses so to speak.

Mighty has been a thrill ride these last 6 issues. I would say its the only entertaining Avengers book, but Ramos is off of The Initiative, so I'll be reading that once again.

ronin7
06-21-2009, 12:51 PM
I almost agree with how Cassie is handled...almost. But its too soon to say if thats faulty writing or if there's a reason for it within the subtext.

Although I hate how people write Hank as a wife beating jerk, I don't want Dan to erase it all and just make Hank white bread from here on out.
When Bendis' era is done, I don't want a magic wand to be waved and all be undone (Wanda's rediculous breakdown, mishandling of Pym/Danvers/Williams, killing Van Dyne, etc). I want to go through a progression of getting us back to classic. This is it.

Hercules? A jerk?? We've not read the same book. This is CLASSIC Hercules. His testosterone induced taunting of Ben Grimm. Him trying to get Hank to man up and take the reins of these crazy horses so to speak.

Mighty has been a thrill ride these last 6 issues. I would say its the only entertaining Avengers book, but Ramos is off of The Initiative, so I'll be reading that once again.

A reason for it in the sub-text? This is the sub-text: "Yeah, I'm Cassandra Lang, and I'm sweet jail bait @$$ you can have your way with all night long!" That's the only sub-text he's sending out.

I personally don't want to go back to the same old, same old rehashing of the glory days. I want progression, but since Bendis won't look at his work, and realize he's burned out on Avengers, and let one of his revisionist pals take over; like say Mark Millar, or whoever. Us true Avengers fans are stuck with the rise of Slott era, which sucks beyond any and all recognition.


Either way, this a good jumping off point for me anyways. I was reading mostly in trade, but I think I'll be fine with picking up the Dark Avengers trade, and that will be the last new Marvel trade I get.

Eugene Selassie
06-21-2009, 01:52 PM
A reason for it in the sub-text? This is the sub-text: "Yeah, I'm Cassandra Lang, and I'm sweet jail bait @$$ you can have your way with all night long!" That's the only sub-text he's sending out.

I personally don't want to go back to the same old, same old rehashing of the glory days. I want progression, but since Bendis won't look at his work, and realize he's burned out on Avengers, and let one of his revisionist pals take over; like say Mark Millar, or whoever. Us true Avengers fans are stuck with the rise of Slott era, which sucks beyond any and all recognition.


Either way, this a good jumping off point for me anyways. I was reading mostly in trade, but I think I'll be fine with picking up the Dark Avengers trade, and that will be the last new Marvel trade I get.

Wow. YOU think Bendis is burned out?
Never thought I'd hear you say that. :confused:

Eugene Selassie
06-23-2009, 05:13 PM
:::crickets chirping:::

Hanzou
06-24-2009, 04:16 AM
I recently walked into my local comics store for the first time in almost a year.

I was actually looking for "Orange" a color Manga from the artist Benjamin, but since that wasn't there, I picked up the latest issue of Uncanny X-Men since I like Terry Dodson's work.

I must say, the current storyline is awful, and its partially because its the same characters that's been in the book for 30+ years. What's worse is that those same characters are also in almost every X-book on the market.

Do I really need to read about Scott Summers' ridiculous love triangles, Colossus brooding for no apparent reason, and Emma Frost taking over Jean's role as Cyclops' psychic bimbo?

You'll never get new readers to the X-books until you really shake things up. Part of the reason Manga is so successful is that there's an actual story instead of an ongoing soap opera. Characters show actual progression. Characters actually stay dead. There's actual consequences for major events that take place in the storyline. I feel like I can ignore everything that happens in the X-Men for the next 5-10 years because some new writer is going to come along and retcon everything that's happening right now anyway.

UniverseX259
06-24-2009, 09:30 AM
I recently walked into my local comics store for the first time in almost a year.

I was actually looking for "Orange" a color Manga from the artist Benjamin, but since that wasn't there, I picked up the latest issue of Uncanny X-Men since I like Terry Dodson's work.

I must say, the current storyline is awful, and its partially because its the same characters that's been in the book for 30+ years. What's worse is that those same characters are also in almost every X-book on the market.

Do I really need to read about Scott Summers' ridiculous love triangles, Colossus brooding for no apparent reason, and Emma Frost taking over Jean's role as Cyclops' psychic bimbo?

You'll never get new readers to the X-books until you really shake things up. Part of the reason Manga is so successful is that there's an actual story instead of an ongoing soap opera. Characters show actual progression. Characters actually stay dead. There's actual consequences for major events that take place in the storyline. I feel like I can ignore everything that happens in the X-Men for the next 5-10 years because some new writer is going to come along and retcon everything that's happening right now anyway.

The thing with manga and the progression of its characters is that most manga are written and drawn by one person and one person exclusively. Growing up I used to read a lot of Dragonball and DBZ and what I liked is that since Toriyama created these characters and wrote them from the beginning he knows more about them than anyone else. And in the manga something like 25 years passes from volume 1 of DB to the last DBZ adventure, showing growth.

Marvel Comics operates on a floating timeline, meaning that, say, even though the X-Men debuted in 1964 only 10 years have passed in their universe. This makes it hard to gauge change. But the X-Men were definitely the most progressive and forward moving with Chris Claremont. He basically had a clean slate with the team when he signed on and he wrote 16 years of solid stories with the characters growing and changing and moving on from the team. In the early 80's the huge thing was Kitty Pryde growing up and Cyclops getting too old for the superhero thing so he retires and goes off and gets married.

But when you have another writer come in to write for, say, 6 issues after someone's been writing the characters for 16 years, they're going to write the characters in a different way and perhaps tie up any loose ends differently than the initial writer. And if there's a new creative team every 6 months or a year, they're going to do their own things and changes won't have lasting effects and everything will end up being retconned anyway. I thought Joss Whedon's writing on Astonishing X-Men was great, but when you think about it it was really just a modern take on Claremont's style using characters who were still fresh when Claremont was writing. The X-Men are in a stalemate because they had 16 years of scripting by a single writer who did so much with them and made them his own but are now scripted by those who may not be as familiar with the characters.

ronin7
06-24-2009, 11:44 AM
There's also the fact that each writer that has followed Chris Claremont happens to be a fan of a different era, so they try to recapture elements of that era instead of being fresh, and original. Or, they were a fan of a different book entirely, and didn't know what to do with the X-Men.

Grant Morrison himself said he was a fan of the original X-Men stories by Stan Lee, and Jack Kirby. Which explains why his Cyclops, and company were so two dimensional in terms of characterization, and personality. It also explained his preference for shying away from the X-Men being mutant rights activists, and trying to model them as rescue workers, and cult icons. Yet, people loved his work because of his trademark rinse and repeat shock tactics, and non-linear narratives.

Joss Whedon was a fan of Chris Claremont's stories, I'd say from his first classic story to his last. So, he wrote Astonishing X-Men based on that.

What the X-Line needs is some one with vision, and not some one with a nostalgic hard on for the Silver Age of comics.

I'd almost suggest that Bendis take over the X-Men line, but given he was responsible for the current climate in the mutant world. And his recent burn out with Avengers; I don't know if X-Men would be a good place for him.

Mark Bertolini
06-24-2009, 05:48 PM
There's also the fact that each writer that has followed Chris Claremont happens to be a fan of a different era, so they try to recapture elements of that era instead of being fresh, and original. Or, they were a fan of a different book entirely, and didn't know what to do with the X-Men.

Grant Morrison himself said he was a fan of the original X-Men stories by Stan Lee, and Jack Kirby. Which explains why his Cyclops, and company were so two dimensional in terms of characterization, and personality. It also explained his preference for shying away from the X-Men being mutant rights activists, and trying to model them as rescue workers, and cult icons. Yet, people loved his work because of his trademark rinse and repeat shock tactics, and non-linear narratives.

Joss Whedon was a fan of Chris Claremont's stories, I'd say from his first classic story to his last. So, he wrote Astonishing X-Men based on that.

What the X-Line needs is some one with vision, and not some one with a nostalgic hard on for the Silver Age of comics.

I'd almost suggest that Bendis take over the X-Men line, but given he was responsible for the current climate in the mutant world. And his recent burn out with Avengers; I don't know if X-Men would be a good place for him.


What was Bendis' recent burn out with Avengers? Those books are selling like nobody's business. I think Marvel would do well to shift Bendis over to the X-titles. It's not like they can get any worse, right?

ronin7
06-24-2009, 08:08 PM
What was Bendis' recent burn out with Avengers? Those books are selling like nobody's business. I think Marvel would do well to shift Bendis over to the X-titles. It's not like they can get any worse, right?

I just want to be clear that I'm not bashing Bendis; it just seems to me that he's spinning his wheels on New Avengers. Where as Dark Avengers shows more energy, and life to it because it's more crime oriented than NA, and has that Thunderbolts angle he can play with any way he sees fit.

That's all I meant when I said he seemed burned out on Avengers.

Hanzou
06-25-2009, 09:09 AM
The thing with manga and the progression of its characters is that most manga are written and drawn by one person and one person exclusively. Growing up I used to read a lot of Dragonball and DBZ and what I liked is that since Toriyama created these characters and wrote them from the beginning he knows more about them than anyone else. And in the manga something like 25 years passes from volume 1 of DB to the last DBZ adventure, showing growth.

Marvel Comics operates on a floating timeline, meaning that, say, even though the X-Men debuted in 1964 only 10 years have passed in their universe. This makes it hard to gauge change. But the X-Men were definitely the most progressive and forward moving with Chris Claremont. He basically had a clean slate with the team when he signed on and he wrote 16 years of solid stories with the characters growing and changing and moving on from the team. In the early 80's the huge thing was Kitty Pryde growing up and Cyclops getting too old for the superhero thing so he retires and goes off and gets married.

But when you have another writer come in to write for, say, 6 issues after someone's been writing the characters for 16 years, they're going to write the characters in a different way and perhaps tie up any loose ends differently than the initial writer. And if there's a new creative team every 6 months or a year, they're going to do their own things and changes won't have lasting effects and everything will end up being retconned anyway. I thought Joss Whedon's writing on Astonishing X-Men was great, but when you think about it it was really just a modern take on Claremont's style using characters who were still fresh when Claremont was writing. The X-Men are in a stalemate because they had 16 years of scripting by a single writer who did so much with them and made them his own but are now scripted by those who may not be as familiar with the characters.


I understand why it happens. My issue is that when you have looping stories that never really end, the audience at hand begins to experience burn-out rather quickly. I was a huge X-fan in the early to mid-90s, but now I just don't understand what the book is about anymore. I don't care about the characters because nothing really happens to them. They don't age, they don't evolve, and they don't really get better character-wise. Basically the characterization is dead.

There's nothing wrong with ENDING something. There's nothing wrong with a major character getting killed and staying dead. There's nothing wrong with showing some sort of inertia in comic books.

Eugene Selassie
06-25-2009, 11:38 AM
I understand why it happens. My issue is that when you have looping stories that never really end, the audience at hand begins to experience burn-out rather quickly. I was a huge X-fan in the early to mid-90s, but now I just don't understand what the book is about anymore. I don't care about the characters because nothing really happens to them. They don't age, they don't evolve, and they don't really get better character-wise. Basically the characterization is dead.

There's nothing wrong with ENDING something. There's nothing wrong with a major character getting killed and staying dead. There's nothing wrong with showing some sort of inertia in comic books.

That's why you might need to branch out and start reading Image and other independent publishers.

Marvel/DC are more concerned with lunch boxes/underoos/etc than allowing forward momentum for their characters. They need to keep these characters as timeless as possible, at the expense of the longtime readership.

That is probably why so few people are reading comics than they were 10-20 years ago.

Moonrider
06-25-2009, 08:59 PM
That's why you might need to branch out and start reading Image and other independent publishers.

Marvel/DC are more concerned with lunch boxes/underoos/etc than allowing forward momentum for their characters. They need to keep these characters as timeless as possible, at the expense of the longtime readership.

That is probably why so few people are reading comics than they were 10-20 years ago.

Doesn't really solve the problem, though. For instance, Image's staple superheroes are not much different from the big two, so are many independent superhero books. Graphic novels are good and everything, but not every kid's comic books should be all Watchmen and Love & Rockets.
If you really want the industry to change, you have to change the big two.

Nothing wrong with merchandising, though. The Japanese are notorious with merchandising as well. Manga thrives because there's a whole system supporting it. Mangaka create the comics, magazines publish bundles of them weekly, animation studios make the animes, their television networks air them and toy companies are on hand from the get go to create the merchandise. US comic books and Hollywood rarely even see eye to eye. Sometimes, even in the most popular of mangas, it's more about the marketing than the quality.

UniverseX259
06-25-2009, 09:01 PM
I understand why it happens. My issue is that when you have looping stories that never really end, the audience at hand begins to experience burn-out rather quickly. I was a huge X-fan in the early to mid-90s, but now I just don't understand what the book is about anymore. I don't care about the characters because nothing really happens to them. They don't age, they don't evolve, and they don't really get better character-wise. Basically the characterization is dead.

There's nothing wrong with ENDING something. There's nothing wrong with a major character getting killed and staying dead. There's nothing wrong with showing some sort of inertia in comic books.

I agree. There's only so many times you can kill off Jean. And by that I mean once is good enough. I never really enjoyed Grant Morrison's run until the end, and then he just ends his tenure by having Jean go Phoenix and died again??? Granted he did change the characters up a bit, but then it all went back to Jean dying AGAIN and then Marvel switching gears so fully on the X-Books it seems like Morrison's stories were kind of forgotten when Claremont took over again.

Another franchise I dig is the Justice Society, and they have 20 more years of continuity than the X-Men so the older characters kind of hit that wall where they sort of become boring. The older characters have been allowed to age, which is great, but in every issue it seems like they won't shut up about Ma Hunkle as the Red Tornado or Felix Faust robbing a bank in '42. The new characters help propel the stories, but basically it's just new versions of older characters who aren't as interesting. The new JSA series had at once point something like 25 main characters, all taking on the mantles of older heroes, but the origins just seemed so rushed and there's so little time to focus on them that you just end up not caring about them. Do I care about Ted Grant? Yeah, he's had a cool history (Except when he's reminiscing about the past). Do I care about Ted Grant's son? Not really, it's another case of a hero having a kid they didn't know about who somehow inherits similar powers.

Wow, I have no idea if my post made any sense. Rant over!

Hanzou
06-26-2009, 12:20 AM
That's why you might need to branch out and start reading Image and other independent publishers.

Marvel/DC are more concerned with lunch boxes/underoos/etc than allowing forward momentum for their characters. They need to keep these characters as timeless as possible, at the expense of the longtime readership.

That is probably why so few people are reading comics than they were 10-20 years ago.


Frankly, a lot of Image titles are simply unreliable, and I don't like getting into a book that will probably get 5 issues and disappear off the face of the earth.

Also there's nothing essentially wrong with keeping your characters timeless, but produce other books that show some sort of inertia. Why not have Uncanny X-Men for people who want to read about the same old group of mutants, and New X-Men for people who want to read about a new team of Xavier's mutants? No, instead we get 3-5 X-Books with the same core cast of characters. Its almost disgusting.

Eugene Selassie
06-28-2009, 06:25 PM
Frankly, a lot of Image titles are simply unreliable, and I don't like getting into a book that will probably get 5 issues and disappear off the face of the earth.

Also there's nothing essentially wrong with keeping your characters timeless, but produce other books that show some sort of inertia. Why not have Uncanny X-Men for people who want to read about the same old group of mutants, and New X-Men for people who want to read about a new team of Xavier's mutants? No, instead we get 3-5 X-Books with the same core cast of characters. Its almost disgusting.

This I have to agree with.

At least during Morrison's New X-Men/Whedon's Astonishing X-men you had alternatives.

Like Storm's group in X-treme X-men

Or Nightcrawler's group in Uncanny.

Now...its the same roster in every book.

Gripe as I may about some of the Avengers books, at least they each have a unique roster and unique purpose.

Eugene Selassie
07-01-2009, 01:03 PM
:::crickets chirping:::