Just a thought

[Al]

Just an opinion....But how supercool is it that some one of Carys caliber is willing to help out with something like this. Again...just an opinion, but I think its getting bogged down by Cary having to do this drawing 101 stuff, (actually its starting to read like a highschool senior year art class). I would personally grab a handful of capable people from this site to handle teaching and illustrating the super basics ( under Carys guide), and leave the higher level stuff to Cary (ala wizards/ Greg Capullo's krash kourse "Powerful pages fast" series).

To me if I was in art school, i wouldnt need An artist of that caliber to teach me first year stuff, I would want to hear his take on third or fourth year philosophy and technique, cuz thats the money info...I can build a car, but I wana see how Cary puts the rubber to the road, so to speak.

And honestly how long Is Cary gona stay Jazzed about doing this basic stuff? Thres plenty of mid level ppl on this site who will benefit from a higher level "currriculum". :carrot:

[Biofungus]

Keep in mind it was Cary himself that wanted to start with the basics. He felt (and rightly so) that too many people were trying to start 'too far ahead', without mastering (and in some cases, even understanding) the basics. Cary's not starting with the basics because he has to, he's doing it because he wants to. And frankly, even if he started separate lessons for more advanced artists, I guarantee you a bunch of people who should be paying special attention to the basic lessons, would assume they were advanced enough for the intermediate stuff.

So in essence, I'm glad Cary is starting at the beginning and not jumping around, because even the more established artists could use a refresher :)

(and yes, Cary, I did order the templates because of that second lesson :embarrassed: ) :p and thank you again, Cary, for doing this!

[BKMDog]

As just a casual reader of these threads, I find all levels of discussion and the tutorials, extremely informative. Be they basic or otherwise. Sure, I've been a pro for almost 25 years but I still learned some really great finer points from Cary's post on how to draw the head that solidified stuff I'd known for years. It was a real refresher when I saw it set down as articulately as Cary had done it. Without being too pretentious, it renewed me and I thought to myself: "Right, right, right - that's what that was about. That's the meat of why I started to draw and do it for a living in the first place." It sharpened me up and refocused me. How great is that for "basic stuff"?

Now, that epiphany was probably just me, but it's my feeling that the basics can never be taught enough or reviewed enough. 'Cuz you begin every drawing with the basics and then move on to more advanced technique / methods depending on the needs of the piece. Practicing those basics again and again helps speed the drawing process because they become more familiar with repetition and thus, you can make your decisions about drawing faster as well.

[John Rauch]

I have a slight issue when students tell teachers how they want to be taught. More often than not, the "easy" lessons everyone thinks they know are the ones actually holding them back and I think it's awesome that Cary volunteered to do this. If anyone else has some nugget they'd like to impart, I don't see how what Cary is doing what keep them from it.

[kingbyron]

I'm with John. I used to always skip ahead and learn the bits that I wanted to learn, without actually learning the how's and the why's. In my opinion, if Cary started giving out more advanced tips, those that 'think' they have a handle on things will skip the basics and never really learn.

I also think that its cool to watch these threads develop in real time. If Cary keeps going he could have a premade book eventually. ;)

[carynord]

More often than not, the "easy" lessons everyone thinks they know are the ones actually holding them back

This is exactly what I'm talking about and exactly where I think so many amateurs fail. This is also why I'm so disappointed with the number of people actually doing the exercises. As BKMDog said, you can never go over the basics too much. I had to pull out my books just to make sure I was doing everything right because some of this gets tricky.

Doing the exercises will force you to solve your own problems and if you can't, then there's a few people here that can teach you.

[carynord]

Just an opinion....But how supercool is it that some one of Carys caliber is willing to help out with something like this. Again...just an opinion, but I think its getting bogged down by Cary having to do this drawing 101 stuff, (actually its starting to read like a highschool senior year art class). I would personally grab a handful of capable people from this site to handle teaching and illustrating the super basics ( under Carys guide), and leave the higher level stuff to Cary (ala wizards/ Greg Capullo's krash kourse "Powerful pages fast" series).

I hear what you're saying, Al. The thing is, all of this info ties into whatever techniques and philosophies I have. I noticed that with the first exercise (the street scene in 1 point) there were a million (well, a dozen) different techniques and rules that weren't getting addressed because the scope was too big. That's why I did the window frame exercise; just so we could focus in on a few of the finer points.



And honestly how long Is Cary gona stay Jazzed about doing this basic stuff? Thres plenty of mid level ppl on this site who will benefit from a higher level "currriculum". :carrot:

Haha. I like this stuff. I love perspective because it's so logical and satisfying. There is a rule for everything and it really makes a background sing. I won't lose interest in the actual drawing, but I'd love to see more participation. This stuffs been up for 3 weeks now and maybe 10 people have tried it.

[BobRivard]

This is also why I'm so disappointed with the number of people actually doing the exercises.

Don't be too disappointed. I'm sure more people are doing these than you think and just not posting their work. Even if somebody is just reading your threads and not doing the work, at least it might get them thinking in the right direction.

[Justice41]

I betcha some are too embarrassed to post as they now see they really don't know what they thought they knew. Don't be folks, just post the art and never worry about embarrassment. One time I was tongue tied while getting on the bus to go to Manhattan and the bus driver told me, "Son a closed mouth does not get fed". This applies to anything you want or need to learn.
Then again I may have scared a few folks off. ;)

[ponyrl]

I've my own lessons going. Also my intend with my art is different than the dominant here as Cary knows.

I draw from two books right now:

Force: Dynamic Life Drawing for Animators, authored by Michael D. Mattesi

&

Atlas of Human Anatomy for the Artist
by Stephen R Peck

&

Will Esners Sketchbook (he also did a 3 book teaching guides which should be arriving soon) to learn the figure's motion.

I'm also taking a class in august at the Grand academy of art in manhattan that focuses on figure drawing.

In the meantime,I practice the basics, lighting, perspective, correct anatomy, etc.

From what I see posted in the art section, a lot of the posters should get in on what cary is doing here, even the main stays who've developed a stylistic form of art.

Even in a stylistic art, the foundation has to be known, or the limitation of that artist will become more noticable to people as time goes.

[Nick Pitarra]

I think the lessons are great(I'm one of those guys who's started all of them but not posted)...and agree with John when he says people skip the basics and thats their downfall. I'm an art education major and I had to go through all of the basic and second level art courses at the University of Houston...and I'd say 90% of the kids didn't know basic drawing. They could look at a picture and paint a house with the right colors, but they didn't understand its basic structure...they didn't see the shapes under things, and were/are extremely lost when dealing with perspective.

Anyways...my only crit of Carry's forum/threads is the lack of assignment #'s. Like a label Assignment #3 16 panel window frame. Just so I can keep organized and know what I need to get done next. I wasn't sure if the window assignment was an assignment or technique you were showing us. Anyways...thats more organization on my end, but it would make it easiar to someone new to that forum on DW, or easiar for unorganized hacks like me.

I also think Justice and others coming into help is/would be great. I know it's a pain to write crits sometimes...and I know Cary is busy. I think if people can help or spot something that would definitely help out, then they should do so. Of course Cary can be the overlord and have final say since this is his baby (plus he pretty much has to respond to everyone b/c we all know we want to know what Cary thinks of our stuff, you always want to know what the teacher thinks...not so much the kid next to you). But when I first saw Cary ask if we'd be interested in this, I was thinking it would be a huge undertaking for him. A lot of these assignments do have a right and wrong answer since they are based on fundamental rules in/of drawing, so if people can help out I think they should.

And lastly...I think it's very cool of both Cary and John to do these assignments...it's such a great oppurtunity to have the help of established professionals at arms length...(and for free). Thanks guys!

~nick

[j giar]

I've been silent since Cary started the thread...but I am planning on posting mine as well....In fact I purposely searched for a more difficult example of perspective so I can try it and post it to get help in one of many areas I can use a refresher in....along with facial construction.....drapery....lights and darks.....blah..blah..blah :D....and yeah it's super cool that I get lessons from the guy who did one of my favorite runs on DD.

[Al]

This is exactly what I'm talking about and exactly where I think so many amateurs fail. This is also why I'm so disappointed with the number of people actually doing the exercises. As BKMDog said, you can never go over the basics too much. I had to pull out my books just to make sure I was doing everything right because some of this gets tricky.

Doing the exercises will force you to solve your own problems and if you can't, then there's a few people here that can teach you.

I totally agree, I think its a fundamental necessity to master this stuff and review it and practice it endlessly. But to me youre kinda catering to the lowest skill level thats present on this site. Which is totally fine, cuz everyone needs to learn, but what about the guys who are pretty good with this stuff already, and want the extra boost? should they get left behind solely because they already have the motivation and discipline to get that good already? theres nothing in this curriculum to help them out really yet.

Honestly thats why your getting little participation, because first year art students are the most unruly, unfocused, unmotivated bunch there is lol, and weve all been there. Hey I have an art degree from columbia in chicago, and spend alot of time with art teachers and comic pros, was taught one on one by a teacher from the kubert school, who was doing a 20 issue run on daredevil at the time... so Im fortunate to have available a wealth of knowledge in art lesssons/ theory firsthand, I just happen to love carys art, and Johns colors, now that Ive seen his stuff, but dont really get the structure of your art school.....I mean does joe kubert teach perspective 101? does Michael jordan teach college talent how to dribble? Or do they set up a kick ass team around them so lessons can be told on all different levels at the same time? . . . thats all im tryin to say.


Stay cool ! Yall make really good points! :thumbs:

[Al]

I have a slight issue when students tell teachers how they want to be taught. More often than not, the "easy" lessons everyone thinks they know are the ones actually holding them back and I think it's awesome that Cary volunteered to do this. If anyone else has some nugget they'd like to impart, I don't see how what Cary is doing what keep them from it.

I would tend to agree with you, if this was an actual art school/ program. But its not. Im not telling anyone how to do anythin, man, Im simply saying theres 10 different levels of art student standing at your door, and your only catering to the ones who show a lack of very basic skill....They need help the most, ok, ok...maybe the fact that Cary Nord is teaching perspective or how to draw a window, means they will buckle down and actually learn it...maybe not...are you seeing alot of feedback? if the desire was that great in them they would pick up a hogarth or loomis book and actually read the damn thing and learn it...like most of us do. I dont think Cary is keepin anyone from doin anything, like I said u guys rock for this undertaking, I would hate to see you get sick of it and quit :carrot:

[Justice41]

If you believe all here know all then they would never have chimed in about needing the help. You'd be surprised what you don't know that you thought you knew but didn't have idea one that you didn't know. Sometimes a simple exercise will reveal just how little you do know. Just because you think you run like a gazelle really doesn't mean you do. Sit tight Cary will get to your lofty levels soon enough and if you're too impatient then you may miss the real lesson being taught, which is to never think you know. You either do or you don't.

[Al]

And frankly, even if he started separate lessons for more advanced artists, I guarantee you a bunch of people who should be paying special attention to the basic lessons, would assume they were advanced enough for the intermediate stuff

Good points man, and your rite!! , how about they have to earn their way into advanced stuff by testing out of the basics? Tough love and all that...Make em earn it! If they want it bad enuff they will do the exercises, and participate.

[Justice41]

Too much "Thoughts", not enough drawing and scanning and posting of said art.

[Al]

then you may miss the real lesson being taught, which is to never think you know. You either do or you don't.

Justice..u crack me up..this is the most profoundly retarted thing I have heard....Youre missing the point that there are people who ACTUALLY Do know...Like you...your perspective is nice, but you could use some serious work on your sequentials in my opinion. hell....You could teach perspective and get peter stroked all day cuz u draw a really super hotel ...Is that gona help your storytelling or layouts? Is this ant art site or a comic book and sequential art site?

[John Rauch]

I think the point is that Cary's doing what he's doing because there are people here who can learn from it. Some of them are even very advanced artists who just skipped a few steps in the learning process. If someone else wants to try teaching things they consider to be more advanced, what Cary is doing is in no way keeping them from doing that. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Justice41]

Justice..u crack me up..this is the most profoundly retarted thing I have heard....Youre missing the point that there are people who ACTUALLY Do know...Like you...your perspective is nice, but you could use some serious work on your sequentials in my opinion. hell....You could teach perspective and get peter stroked all day cuz u draw a really super hotel ...Is that gona help your storytelling or layouts? Is this an art site or a comic book and sequential art site?
This isn't about storytelling per se, it's about doing comic book quality artwork. You may have missed Cary's point all together. he won't be showing you or anyone else any storytelling techniques just how to draw comics artwork.
Cary is using his name to get people, who should know better, to listen. I could sit here and try all day to show everyone how to do Perspectives and how to render, but I'm not a comics pro. That's mainly why I don't. Also you have to consider this, Cary in a round about way, just basically told everyone who chimed in saying they want the lessons, that they suck. Water seeks it's own level bud, if you feel this level is for the kiddies then you don't have to participate, but try not to shame the man into helping you and others supposedly at a higher skill level. Oh and I have zero, zip, nada, interest in doing comics or comic stories. Zip, zero, nada. So .. yeah thanks for the non advice.
Like I said, you either know something or you don't. Pretending will not ever, ever, pass muster. Obviously some feel they don't know and want to know and Cary's there to help out in some capacity. Thank the man move on or create a curriculum yourself, like Rauch did. Better to strike a match than curse the Darkness.

[carynord]

This forum is to show people the little things that make a big difference in your art - the difference between professional and amateur art. I started with perspective because it affects how you draw everything else. Without an understanding of it, you're going to be at a disadvantage. So tip #1 is master perspective and use it as much as you can in your sample work.
This alone will make your art stand apart from the majority of submissions.

Eventually, I imagine we'll get to some of the finer points of comic art. I'm curious, what would you like to hear more of anyway?

[j giar]

I've got to say something and then let Cary get on with the lessons. I don't want this to turn into a pissin' match. I chose to participate in this, and yes I know I posted my stuff late, but I chose to participate. It's not important to me whether someone else feels I need to improve, it's that I have the desire to improve. I want to improve. And as many people as I've seen on the other threads that chime in but are not posting work, I question their intentions. I've visited sights of some of those and I find it ironic that they question these principles. Principles that have been around for ages...hell, I even forgot about them and we were taught this in Highschool art class. And that's way to long ago to care to mention. Keep the lessons coming Cary and lest get on with this. J.

[Scribbly]

And honestly how long Is Cary gona stay Jazzed about doing this basic stuff? Thres plenty of mid level ppl on this site who will benefit from a higher level "currriculum". :carrot:
This is my thought for you.
Look at Cary's artwork. Now, look at yours.
What is the difference?
Cary learned, practiced and understood these basics entirely.
That is why he can do what he does.
You didn't, that's why you still hanging in a middle level.

Here's Cary explaining these old basics.
Same of those you can find at any book on the subject.
But books don't give you feedback. ...For free.
This is your chance, don't miss it. This is gold.

[j giar]

This is my thought for you.
Look at Cary's artwork. Now, look at yours.
What is the difference?
Cary learned, practiced and understood these basics entirely.
That is why he can do what he does.
You didn't, that's why you still hanging in a middle level.

Here's Cary explaining these old basics.
Same of those you can find at any book on the subject.
But books don't give you feedback. ...For free.
This is your chance, don't miss it. This is gold.

That was beautiful, man. :cry: :cry: :D

[Al]

This is my thought for you.
Look at Cary's artwork. Now, look at yours.
What is the difference?
Cary learned, practiced and understood these basics entirely.
That is why he can do what he does.
You didn't, that's why you still hanging in a middle level.


Scribbly, Luv ya man!! :) :)

[John Rauch]

Let it go. This isn't a pissing contest. Cary's helping people and you've got nothing to do but complain.

[Al]

Eventually, I imagine we'll get to some of the finer points of comic art. I'm curious, what would you like to hear more of anyway?

Materials 101- What u use in your tool box, and why u choose these things.

History of sequential art ( ala scott mcleod) including your thoughts on theories from ppl like Kirby, Eisner, ..the pillars of sequential art. And what theories u subscribe to and are influenced by

Decipering and working from a script

Class #1 Basic Layouts- doing thumbnails, and basic theory of storytelling, including how to Pace a story and move the camera in an interesting way

Class #2 Advanced Layouts - Translating Thumbnails into pages, and Identifying how the size u work at defines your final result of overall page flow

Class#3 How to deal with a writer, and speak their language, while being considerate of lettering. show us some script and what u did to get it done.

Characterization and movement

how to Make your characters different, unique and in motion.


Powerful covers, splash pages and pin ups

, including theories on divine proportion and composition.

thats just off the top of my head. Dont think Im tryin to bag on your stuff at all, I just know you are an excellent source for this knowledge for ALOT of people, And Ive heard you use the Phrases" dissapointment" "Noones participating" several times now. You were also quick to say u had no structure in your lessons and were gona sorta wing it. These are the reasons I chimed in.

Now a couple ppl have said this thread is distracting from your classes, if thats the case, than ask a mod to shut it down and ill pm u my thoughts.

[Al]

Let it go. This isn't a pissing contest. Cary's helping people and you've got nothing to do but complain.

Whos complaining John, is it you or me?

[John Rauch]

You are, but I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you. It takes a special kind of person to only bring negativity when others are trying to do something positive.

[SJames]

Ok .... I have bitten said tongue for so long!!!! First off I'd like to tip my hat to Cory fer doing what he is doing!!! :) .......But I must agree with AL!!!!! being a former collage art instructor someone of Cory's talent could and would do better giving tips on the finite art of story tellin' not basics of perspective!!! I don't feel it is a pissing contest but a well rounded artist asking for advanced tips to take them to the next level!!! Comics are a medium of stoy telling not rendering pretty ornate illustrations. Alex Toth is and was the best panel to panel story teller to date JRJR is filling that gap. artists today are worried about making every panel look pretty instead of flow comparatively from panel to panel!!!! :slap: Cory could and would spend to much time on the perspective when a multitude of comic artists like Yu and many others admit light boxing sketchup layouts they have done!!! I feel Cory's time would be better spent Teaching characterization and panel to panel story tellin' than perspective!..them my thoughts! feel free to jump on me as you did AL!!!! :thumbs:

[madelf]

Decipering and working from a script

Class #1 Basic Layouts- doing thumbnails, and basic theory of storytelling, including how to Pace a story and move the camera in an interesting way

Class #2 Advanced Layouts - Translating Thumbnails into pages, and Identifying how the size u work at defines your final result of overall page flow

Class#3 How to deal with a writer, and speak their language, while being considerate of lettering. show us some script and what u did to get it done.

Characterization and movement

how to Make your characters different, unique and in motion.


Powerful covers, splash pages and pin ups

, including theories on divine proportion and composition.

Seconded.
I don't mind the basics. I can use the help there too. But this stuff... I'd love to see this stuff.

For my own suggestion...

For the "homework", I'd prefer to see stuff that allows more individual creativity from the artists. Show a technique and then let them apply the technique to whatever they want, rather than a "draw this thing just like I drew this same thing" approach.

For instance, the perspective and reference lesson could have demonstrated the technique and then said, "Choose a photo with interesting perspective and go to work" rather than, "draw this picture".

In the face lesson, I'd have liked to have seen the construction technique demonstrated (and seen it applied to profiles and three-quarter views too) and instructions to "go draw some interesting faces", rather than having everyone draw the same character because they were trying to follow the lesson so closely.

I think allowing different interpretations for the lessons would help everyone. We'd get to see different approaches, different pitfalls, etc.

But, no biggie. I'll take what I can get.

[j giar]

Cary was starting with basics because he saw work being posted where the artists were ignoring the basics....and I'm sure he'll get to the goodies.....we just need a little patience (cue Guns n' Roses song) :)

[Justice41]

Ok .... I have bitten said tongue for so long!!!! First off I'd like to tip my hat to Cory fer doing what he is doing!!! :) .......But I must agree with AL!!!!! being a former collage art instructor someone of Cory's talent could and would do better giving tips on the finite art of story tellin' not basics of perspective!!! I don't feel it is a pissing contest but a well rounded artist asking for advanced tips to take them to the next level!!! Comics are a medium of stoy telling not rendering pretty ornate illustrations. Alex Toth is and was the best panel to panel story teller to date JRJR is filling that gap. artists today are worried about making every panel look pretty instead of flow comparatively from panel to panel!!!! :slap: Cory could and would spend to much time on the perspective when a multitude of comic artists like Yu and many others admit light boxing sketchup layouts they have done!!! I feel Cory's time would be better spent Teaching characterization and panel to panel story tellin' than perspective!..them my thoughts! feel free to jump on me as you did AL!!!! :thumbs:
What you all fail to note is Cary chose to do what he is doing. Complaining and trying to get him to change from what he said he wanted to do is kinda low. Accept what he's offering or go somewhere else. Quit the whining and complaining. he didn't have to do anything, Cary could have just gone on his merry way as he was. Man, some of you. You guys could ruin sex.

[carynord]

Easy, guys, easy.

Al - I really do hear and understand what you're saying, but if people don't know the basics then it's pointless to get into the finer points of it all.

I didn't start this thread to teach storytelling, I started it to show people what it means to turn in professional quality work. Most artists, including myself, start out with no regard to the basic principles of art and instead waste tons of time and energy drawing muscled up figures that they make up out of their head with tons and tons of mistakes.

I've got no formal training myself which may be why I identify with the struggles of a young artist. If I can get people to realize how important this stuff is to their own development then I'm happy.

[carynord]

Seconded.
I don't mind the basics. I can use the help there too. But this stuff... I'd love to see this stuff.

For my own suggestion...

For the "homework", I'd prefer to see stuff that allows more individual creativity from the artists. Show a technique and then let them apply the technique to whatever they want, rather than a "draw this thing just like I drew this same thing" approach.

Well, go to it, man! Of course, the whole point of this is so you can apply it to your own stuff. Who said you couldn't? I actually told everyone to look in the mirror and use your own face for reference, but whatever, right?



For instance, the perspective and reference lesson could have demonstrated the technique and then said, "Choose a photo with interesting perspective and go to work" rather than, "draw this picture".

It's nice to have something to compare your work to and you can learn from each other. The same points get hammered into your head over and over and hopefully by the end of it, you'll get it. It's one picture, what's the big deal? It might take you an afternoon to do.

[SJames]

What you all fail to note is Cary chose to do what he is doing. Complaining and trying to get him to change from what he said he wanted to do is kinda low. Accept what he's offering or go somewhere else. Quit the whining and complaining. he didn't have to do anything, Cary could have just gone on his merry way as he was. Man, some of you. You guys could ruin sex.



Just ask yer wife how bad I ruin it!!!!.....now I'm starting to get pissed off! I don't nor do I claim to know more or as much as Cary ....but come on the points Al gave and the lessons are legit! he called as I would a spade a spade !!! now Cary is very talented....but our points are that his talent could be better spent teaching more advanced comic theory instead of on rudimentary perspective! Hell any freshman art course in high school will teach you that!

[Justice41]

Just ask yer wife how bad I ruin it!!!!.....now I'm starting to get pissed off! I don't nor do I claim to know more or as much as Cary ....but come on the points Al gave and the lessons are legit! he called as I would a spade a spade !!! now Cary is very talented....but our points are that his talent could be better spent!!! instead of on rudimentary perspective! Hell any freshman art course in high school will teach you that!
That's not for you to decide though is it? Well is it? No. Asked and answered. get off the point, it's no longer valid.
If that was the case how come so many of you know nothing about doing rudimentary perspectives?

[j giar]

I think someone needs I hug.

[Al]

Easy, guys, easy.

Al - I really do hear and understand what you're saying, but if people don't know the basics then it's pointless to get into the finer points of it all.

I didn't start this thread to teach storytelling, I started it to show people what it means to turn in professional quality work. Most artists, including myself, start out with no regard to the basic principles of art and instead waste tons of time and energy drawing muscled up figures that they make up out of their head with tons and tons of mistakes.

I've got no formal training myself which may be why I identify with the struggles of a young artist. If I can get people to realize how important this stuff is to their own development then I'm happy.

Enuff said for me man! Thats all I needed to hear. It is good to know what I, and my students can expect from your classes! and we will pine for the future day when/ if you can adress these other points :banana: I Never tried to beat down your thread or anything, just open a mature discussion, which is almost impossible on this site lol Good luck anything you teach will of course rock! Be well

[Al]

I think someone needs I hug.

Yes please :) lmfao

[SJames]

Justice - Apparently your just in fer the circle jerk!!! I'm done with this thread I gave my thoughts and you go on the attack!!? :yuk: the last I knew this was still a free country....for the moment?! again the points Al posted were valid ...I just happened to agree with them! you can bash my art all you want....I don't give a Damn I let it speak fer it's self I don't need some Arse kiss wannabe yes man telling me what I do and that my stuff is great Fuck that and You for all I care! I gave an Opinion that differed than yours and you go on the attack...speaks volumes.

[William Blankenship]

People are angry, feelings are hurt, and I'm just happy I'm not involved.

If anyone is interested in watching me do a character design exercise, catch the LiveDraw (http://www.bohemian-zen.com/?page_id=180) tonight at 9-11 pm eastern.

Fapfapfap.
3!LL

[Justice41]

Justice - Apparently your just in fer the circle jerk!!! I'm done with this thread I gave my thoughts and you go on the attack!!? :yuk: the last I knew this was still a free country....for the moment?! again the points Al posted were valid ...I just happened to agree with them! you can bash my art all you want....I don't give a Damn I let it speak fer it's self I don't need some Arse kiss wannabe yes man telling me what I do and that my stuff is great Fuck that and You for all I care! I gave an Opinion that differed than yours and you go on the attack...speaks volumes.
If you call that an attack you're really a crybaby with soft skin. I attacked no one. I just made it clear that you guys are being jerks demanding of the man what he never said he would do. Grow up.

[Justice41]

People are angry, feelings are hurt, and I'm just happy I'm not involved.

If anyone is interested in watching me do a character design exercise, catch the LiveDraw (http://www.bohemian-zen.com/?page_id=180) tonight at 9-11 pm eastern.

Fapfapfap.
3!LL
Turn around turn around we don't need to see that!! ;)

[William Blankenship]

Turn around turn around we don't need to see that!! ;)

What am I if I can't mock the masturbatory, self-serving nature of my own posts?

[Al]

If you call that an attack you're really a crybaby with soft skin. I attacked no one. I just made it clear that you guys are being jerks demanding of the man what he never said he would do. Grow up.

Now Justice, chill out, instead of telling us all to piss off, why not put your title as" i dont wana work in comics" It will give us all perspective on why u and Rauch, dont want a storytelling curriculum, cuz u two couldnt care less about doing it...but guess what thats what makes a comics pro. We are not demanding stuff bud, if he doesnt want to teach that stuff its a shame, but we are not trying to control him...or demand jack. he finally came out and said that he wont do storytelling...now its over. You and rauch think youre Carys mouthpeice or something. get over it and have a nice day!

[John Rauch]

Now Justice, chill out, instead of telling us all to piss off, why not put your title as" i dont wana work in comics" It will give us all perspective on why u and Rauch, dont want a storytelling curriculum, cuz u two couldnt care less about doing it...but guess what thats what makes a comics pro. We are not demanding stuff bud, if he doesnt want to teach that stuff its a shame, but we are not trying to control him...or demand jack. he finally came out and said that he wont do storytelling...now its over. You and rauch think youre Carys mouthpeice or something. get over it and have a nice day!

What are you talking about? I think story-telling is incredibly important. I never said I didn't want to see it happen. I hope Cary does have a chance to get to that in due time. Also, I do work in comics and have spoken only for myself. I'd just like to see people either show a little gratitude or chip in themselves where they see a need. Thanks for letting me know what it takes to be a comics pro though. I'll try to keep that in mind...

[Justice41]

Now Justice, chill out, instead of telling us all to piss off, why not put your title as" i dont wana work in comics" It will give us all perspective on why u and Rauch, dont want a storytelling curriculum, cuz u two couldnt care less about doing it...but guess what thats what makes a comics pro. We are not demanding stuff bud, if he doesnt want to teach that stuff its a shame, but we are not trying to control him...or demand jack. he finally came out and said that he wont do storytelling...now its over. You and rauch think youre Carys mouthpeice or something. get over it and have a nice day!
He said that from the beginning. Ignorance is one of the most costly commodities in this country it costs time and money dealing with it.

[j giar]

Did I fall asleep and wake up in an alternate reality......again?

[William Blankenship]

Everybody wants a piece of Cary. I get dibs on the liver.

[Justice41]

Did I fall asleep and wake up in an alternate reality......again?
Yes you did, you have entered the.......ta da da doooooooooooo ,"Whinelikeababy Zone". :laugh:

[Justice41]

Everybody wants a piece of Cary. I get dibs on the liver.
I want the hair on his head. heck i'll take the scalp.

[Al]

Justice...keep calling me names...he never said that from the begining. if he did I missed it. this is an art site. which is a topic that im a far greater authority than you, my friend, cuz ive worked alot harder at it than you have...so call me ignorant again.... and here I was thinking u had some of the best potential for superstardom than most around here...but I was fooled cuz u dont wana do stories....how sad that youre too lazy.

John- sorry I should have said, thats what it takes to be a professional penciler/seq artist. Im not trying to take anything from ur coloring jobs, cuz its pretty good, well done sir. but that in no way makes u an authority on penciling a book does it? btw u never once said u did want it to happen, u just built a case on why it shouldnt happen.

Sorry you guys are such Divas about this. I sincerley wish the best of luck to you both!

[j giar]

Everybody wants a piece of Cary. I get dibs on the liver.

MMMmmm liver.

[Al]

Everybody wants a piece of Cary. I get dibs on the liver.


:laugh: :laugh: I love this dope smoking white trashole...Im tuning into ur class, no doubt, man!! :laugh:

[carynord]

I want the hair on his head. heck i'll take the scalp.

Um, I don't think you've seen my scalp lately. Not much in the way of hair there though I make what's left work hard. lol.

[Justice41]

Justice...keep calling me names...he never said that from the begining. if he did I missed it. this is an art site. which is a topic that im a far greater authority than you, my friend, cuz ive worked alot harder at it than you have...so call me ignorant again.... and here I was thinking u had some of the best potential for superstardom than most around here...but I was fooled cuz u dont wana do stories....how sad that youre too lazy.

John- sorry I should have said, thats what it takes to be a professional penciler/seq artist. Im not trying to take anything from ur coloring jobs, cuz its pretty good, well done sir. but that in no way makes u an authority on penciling a book does it?

Sorry you guys are such Divas about this. I sincerley wish the best of luck to you both!
It aint name calling to say someone is ignorant, it's an observation based on the things one says or does.

[Caio Reis]

Please guys, grow up... ;)

[John Rauch]

Justice...keep calling me names...he never said that from the begining. if he did I missed it. this is an art site. which is a topic that im a far greater authority than you, my friend, cuz ive worked alot harder at it than you have. and here I was thinking u had some of the best potential for superstardom than most around here...but I was fooled cuz u dont wana do stories....how sad.

John- sorry I should have said, thats what it takes to be a professional penciler/seq artist. Im not trying to take anything from ur coloring jobs, cuz its pretty good, well done sir. but that in no way makes u an authority on penciling a book does it?

Sorry you guys are such Divas about this. I sincerley wish the best of luck to you both!

Actually, I did try penciling as a job for a year, but I certainly wouldn't put myself on the same level as most top tier pencilers. I did my best, struggled through, and hopefully earned my keep. I definitely have plenty to learn. I do know enough to say with some authority that the things Cary is teaching are the absolute fundamentals to drawing comics. You need to know this stuff before trying to jump into the rest. Maybe you do already, but please respect that everyone may not. I haven't been a diva. I haven't called a single name or been upset about anything said here. I just find it frustrating that someone who claims to be beyond these lessons wouldn't recognize that some people could really benefit from them. If anything, I'm trying to be the voice of reason.

[j giar]

This whole thing reminds me of my kids when they're arguing in the back seat of our car during family trips.
Don't make me come back there...and know we're not there yet.

[Al]

It aint name calling to say someone is ignorant, it's an observation based on the things one says or does.

Oh my bad than

[Justice41]

This whole thing reminds me of my kids when they're arguing in the back seat of our car during family trips.
Don't make me come back there...and know we're not there yet.
We developed Back hand radar as kids. My dad's hand was quick so you ha to have Spidey like senses and reflexes to avoid getting tagged. :laugh:

[Al]

Thanks for that last one John, now thats objective, and I appreciate the tone your using now. I didnt try to disrespect anyone here either. And I will rescpect what you said that yes many can learn from these lessons which is absolutley true of course, and I applaud them for trying.
and will do anything i can to help them as well.:thumbs: :thumbs:

[Al]

We developed Back hand radar as kids. My dad's hand was quick so you ha to have Spidey like senses and reflexes to avoid getting tagged. :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[j giar]

Okay...I feel a group hug coming on.

[Nic]

WTF

anyone ever heard of beggers cant be choosers?

You have a proffesional Marvel artist here willing to teach and give leasons in HIS SPARE time, FOR FREE and you guys have the nerve to complain about it????

If you feel like this is not up to your AWESOMETASTIC standards go and get paid lessons at scholism or gnomon

oh no wait that would cost like 800 bucks and uhm
you dont get paid gigs since uhm afterall you are not all that great =D

DUH
SHIT what now???

[j giar]

WTF

anyone ever heard of beggers cant be choosers?

You have a proffesional Marvel artist here willing to teach and give leasons in HIS SPARE time, FOR FREE and you guys have the nerve to complain about it????

If you feel like this is not up to your AWESOMETASTIC standards go and get paid lessons at scholism or gnomon

oh no wait that would cost like 800 bucks and uhm
you dont get paid gigs since uhm afterall you are not all that great =D

DUH
SHIT what now???


OOps. Nevermind. :man:

[carynord]

Love! Let's focus on the love!

Everyone's said their piece and dried their eyes... let's move on, huh?

I'm confident that we can turn this into a happy place again. :)

EDIT: And remember, I now have the power of MOD! Don't eff with me ;)

(I'm kidding. Let's all just get along).

[Nic]

OOps. Nevermind. :man:

by the time I posted some of the stuff hadnt been said.
I mean I didnt know there would be 5 new posts after I started writting =D

[carynord]

To no one in particular, but on the topic of professionalism... really try to keep your cool in this game. I could get mad about a million things but I always keep the bottom line in sight, which is, I want as many friends in this industry as possible, because friends in comics equal jobs in comics. Being a hot head and running your mouth is like shooting yourself in the foot. Don't do it. Refrain. Keep your cool and relax and it will serve you much better.

[Nic]

To no one in particular, but on the topic of professionalism... really try to keep your cool in this game. I could get mad about a million things but I always keep the bottom line in sight, which is, I want as many friends in this industry as possible, because friends in comics equal jobs in comics. Being a hot head and running your mouth is like shooting yourself in the foot. Don't do it. Refrain. Keep your cool and relax and it will serve you much better.


Qupted for truth but sometimes it gets hard.
Really hard =D

[j giar]

Qupted for truth but sometimes it gets hard.
Really hard =D

I feel so dirty after reading this I feel the need to wash my hands. :laugh:

[Nic]

:slap:

hahahahaha

oh well yeah I guess I see how you could misread that =)

[carynord]

I feel so dirty after reading this I feel the need to wash my hands. :laugh:

hahaahaha.

[madelf]

It's one picture, what's the big deal?
It's not a big deal.

YOU asked what we'd like to see. If you don't like my answer, then don't do it that way. What's the big deal?

[j giar]

It's not a big deal.

YOU asked what we'd like to see. If you don't like my answer, then don't do it that way. What's the big deal?


Ugh :yawn: Can we just shut this thread down?

[carynord]

It's not a big deal.

YOU asked what we'd like to see. If you don't like my answer, then don't do it that way. What's the big deal?

Okay. Noted. :) Sorry if I came across offensive. Stupid internet with it's lack of inflection.

[carynord]

Ugh :yawn: Can we just shut this thread down?

Nah. Keep it alive. We're working out the kinks here. It's all good.

[j giar]

Nah. Keep it alive. We're working out the kinks here. It's all good.


Okay....Now is there anyone else who wishes to piss on the fire of creativity?
Anyone?.......anyone? Good
Now can we have that group hug? :)

[carynord]

Okay....Now is there anyone else who wishes to piss on the fire of creativity?
Anyone?.......anyone? Good
Now can we have that group hug? :)

There's no way I'm getting into a group hug situation with that Nic guy... he gets way too excited.

[Biofungus]

I'm not reading through the last few pages of this thread, but is it my imagination, or is this thread basically a few people bitching about a 'free lunch', that many people have to pay a few hundred dollars to take a course to learn, that a comic book professional is offering for FREE simply out of his own good graces?

Isn't that kind of crap one of the reasons this generation is accused of an 'undeserved sense of self-entitlement'?

[ponyrl]

There's no way I'm getting into a group hug situation with that Nic guy... he gets way too excited.
*whispers*No, no, that was Bio that one time. He just pointed to Nic when he got caught. *whispers* :whistlin:

[j giar]

I'm not reading through the last few pages of this thread, but is it my imagination, or is this thread basically a few people bitching about a 'free lunch', that many people have to pay a few hundred dollars to take a course to learn, that a comic book professional is offering for FREE simply out of his own good graces?


Ummm.....yes

[carynord]

I'm not reading through the last few pages of this thread, but is it my imagination, or is this thread basically a few people bitching about a 'free lunch', that many people have to pay a few hundred dollars to take a course to learn, that a comic book professional is offering for FREE simply out of his own good graces?

Isn't that kind of crap one of the reasons this generation is accused of an 'undeserved sense of self-entitlement'?

No, it's all good, man. There was actually a compliment in all this for me --that I should focus on a higher level of the comic book craft. Words just got taken the wrong way and everyone is good now... RIGHT? ...right. We're all good.

...and there was peace in the valley.

[Justice41]

No, it's all good, man. There was actually a compliment in all this for me --that I should focus on a higher level of the comic book craft. Words just got taken the wrong way and everyone is good now... RIGHT? ...right. We're all good.

...and there was peace in the valley.
Until I showed up again Muhahahahahahahahahahahahaha...................... .......Beuhler?

[William Blankenship]

And all of you missed the best LiveDraw we've done so far. You should all be ashamed. :p

[madelf]

Okay. Noted. :) Sorry if I came across offensive. Stupid internet with it's lack of inflection.
No worries.

You just startled me a little, because I thought you were turning defensive after asking for suggestions. And I didn't want you to think I was being pushy.

[Scribbly]

And all of you missed the best LiveDraw we've done so far. You should all be ashamed. :p
Some people in this thread should have shame of themselves. :man:

[OZ!]

I am SOOOOOO happy I read through this whole thing before I started ranting. So to sum it up on tasteful terms... I am going to be taking advantage of said free lunch, I have to pee but not on creative fires and I hope everybody takes advantage of these exercises since only maybe 10 of us can say they know what they are doing(And I ain't in that 10!)

Let's get it going. Cary and Justice, if I post the two older projects, will ya'll crit the shit out of them?

[Nic]

Damn no group hug for me =(

[Justice41]

I am SOOOOOO happy I read through this whole thing before I started ranting. So to sum it up on tasteful terms... I am going to be taking advantage of said free lunch, I have to pee but not on creative fires and I hope everybody takes advantage of these exercises since only maybe 10 of us can say they know what they are doing(And I ain't in that 10!)

Let's get it going. Cary and Justice, if I post the two older projects, will ya'll crit the shit out of them?
If's are for children;) I don't do hypotheticals. :p

[OZ!]

Fine... WHEN I post...

Happy archy-boy? LOL

[Justice41]

Fine... WHEN I post...

Happy archy-boy? LOL
Better post now. C'mon it's fun. If you think it's hard you'll make it hard on yourself. approach all aspects of drawing the same. There is no disposable part of drawing that anyone should think,"Well gotta get this out of the way". Think of drawing buildings and other BG elements as just a more difficult task.
Change your view and you'll change your approach and you'll change your attitude towards this stuff. Whether it be a desert or hillside or building dense cityscape, I look at drawing it the same way. Like this------> :confused:

[Al]

No, it's all good, man. There was actually a compliment in all this for me --that I should focus on a higher level of the comic book craft. Words just got taken the wrong way and everyone is good now... RIGHT? ...right. We're all good.

...and there was peace in the valley.


http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1079/buttrockd.gifhttp://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1079/buttrockd.gifhttp://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1079/buttrockd.gifhttp://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1079/buttrockd.gifhttp://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1079/buttrockd.gifhttp://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1079/buttrockd.gif



.

[William Blankenship]

Respectfully removed.


:har: Point made.
3!LL

[Justice41]

That Pinup Looks like Jon Malins stuff.

[j giar]

Okay...is it safe for the group hug now?

[Al]

and I draw like this...
You gonna get raped! (NSFW!) (http://www.bohemian-zen.com/Images/RapeRoomphoto.jpg)

...And I still think that was a tasteless thing to do to another artist. Not interested in arguing or pissing, but no matter how good your art is (and it is very good) that was a dick move.

3!LL


I know, Man, Its probly cuz Im kind of a dick :laugh: But hey he called me out on my art, so I had to make a point. actually I really like some of scribblys art, ive even shown love in his posts, and saw no reason for him to bag on my work. my opinions, ok..beat me up all day. But ur right, and ill take down this post if you take the quoted images out of urs, howz that?

On the second note, you are a sick and twisted individual, please tell me u didnt spend time drawing that :laugh: :laugh:

[Al]

Okay...is it safe for the group hug now?

As long as Nics boner is not present there than Im in!

Really Ive got nuthin but an abundance of love for all u guys and gals, My inner drill sargeant comes out when its time to learn...too much time in the armpit of the middle east playing with guns has fried my brain :laugh:

[William Blankenship]

I know, Man, Its probly cuz Im kind of a dick :laugh: But hey he called me out on my art, so I had to make a point. actually I really like some of scribblys art, ive even shown love in his posts, and saw no reason for him to bag on my work. my opinions, ok..beat me up all day. But ur right, and ill take down this post if you take the quoted images out of urs, howz that?

On the second note, you are a sick and twisted individual, please tell me u didnt spend time drawing that :laugh: :laugh:

Respectfully removed for you. I spent a good time on those two fella's and really am quite happy with them. :D

I took the link down because point was made though.

3!LL

[Mr.Musgrave]

NOW I remember why I quit doing the "art tutorial" thing". All the prissy little prima donnas who thought they were too good to study the basics. Guess what keeds...you're not. And Cary is 30 times the artist I ever was. Shut your mouths, know your roles, and fucking learn something for Christ sake. There's a reason he's Cary Nord...and you're not.

[j giar]

NOW I remember why I quit doing the "art tutorial" thing". All the prissy little prima donnas who thought they were too good to study the basics. Guess what keeds...you're not. And Cary is 30 times the artist I ever was. Shut your mouths, know your roles, and fucking learn something for Christ sake. There's a reason he's Cary Nord...and you're not.

Holy shit.....where have you been?

[Justice41]

NOW I remember why I quit doing the "art tutorial" thing". All the prissy little prima donnas who thought they were too good to study the basics. Guess what keeds...you're not. And Cary is 30 times the artist I ever was. Shut your mouths, know your roles, and fucking learn something for Christ sake. There's a reason he's Cary Nord...and you're not.
*Sniff*, I miss Mussy.