Here we go...

[carynord]

Well.

This might be a little more high profile than I originally intended, but let's do it anyway. :)

Okay, first off, I’ve never attempted anything like this before so I do not have any kind of system in place - I’ll be making it up as we go along.

Secondly, nothing I say here is going to be anything that you can’t find on your own. Andrew Loomis! Find as much of his material as you can and read it all. It's a goldmine of information. My favorite book on perspective is called Perspective! For Comic Book Artists by David Chelsea. Every artist should own this book.

The emphasis of this thread is to show anyone who's interested what I think it takes to turn in professional quality pencils/art. It's not necessarily a lesson on perspective though we will cover a lot.

I find most aspiring artists overlook two important things: Perspective and reference.

Perspective is absolutely a required skill for any comic book artist and it is a very powerful tool. Having a good command over it will give you an edge over 80% of your competition. Everything is bound by it. I use perspective to draw faces, landscapes, mountains, trees, as well as it’s more obvious use in man-made structures and objects -- if it exists on Earth, there is a perspective rule for it.

Just as there is a perspective rule for everything, there is also a reference piece for everything. Working from reference is one of the key things you can do to give your art interest and accuracy, no matter what sort of drawing style you have. The street scene you make up out of your head will never be as interesting as the one you found reference for. I swear to you, if you use reference for EVERYTHING it will give you that extra 19% you need to beat out all the competition. So there you go, listen to me and you’ll have increased your chances of getting in by 99%. ;)

Okay, so there's the introduction. Stay tuned, I'll post again today as soon as I get the work ready... another hour or so!

Thanks for all the interest!

[Nic]

Let´s ROCk´n ROLL

:carrot: :banana: :carrot:

[rpace]

You can find Loomis in PDFs here (http://www.placidchaos.com/AM/index.php?title=andrew_loomis&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1).

I normally object to downloads of in copyright works, but the Loomis estate has been rather uncooperative about letting the man's books stay in print.

I second the Chelsea book, if that matters.

~Richard

[LDahl]

You can find Loomis in PDFs here (http://www.placidchaos.com/AM/index.php?title=andrew_loomis&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1).

I normally object to downloads of in copyright works, but the Loomis estate has been rather uncooperative about letting the man's books stay in print.

I second the Chelsea book, if that matters.

~Richard
Thank you so much for posting!

[Renae De Liz]

Awesome Carynord! :har:

I think you're wonderful for doing this and for taking time out of your day to do it.

I've had to diaper Ray's face as the drooling became quite excessive. I think he's looking forward to it.... :laugh:

[raya]

Awesome Carynord! :har:

I think you're wonderful for doing this and for taking time out of your day to do it.

I've had to diaper Ray's face as the drooling became quite excessive. I think he's looking forward to it.... :laugh:

:laugh:

[j giar]

Sweet.
I'm excited.

[carynord]

Alright... it's still Thursday, right? Except maybe for Jake.

I'm going to walk you through my process step by step. If you have a question or a better way of doing something please let me know. I'm running this on the assumption that everybody here has at least some understanding of basic perspective. Let me know if otherwise and we can address specific issues.

Here's a nice simple street scene I picked out from a google image search.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9640/dudleypharmacy2735265.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dudleypharmacy2735265.jpg)

I'd like everyone to draw this same scene so we can all address the same problems and challenges.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/149/cimg1466w.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cimg1466w.jpg)

Fig. A - this is my favorite tool. How to divide a square (or rectangle)up into equal parts. Give this a shot. It's perfect for things like an 8 panel window - you'll find tons of uses for it and as you'll see, I use it a lot.

Fig. B - I start with a loose, quick, simple sketch. It's a good idea to use a light pencil (3h or 4h) and press very lightly because very quickly it's going to get very confusing with all the lines everywhere.
In the sketch I'm just trying to isolate the big shapes and major elements of the photo and find a nice balance; I'm not at all concerned about how accurately I reproduce the photo. The composition is all mine and I'll do whats best for the panel - if that means leaving certain things out or adding things, fine. All the photo is there for is ideas and the little details that will make my drawing look convincing. Don't rely on it for your composition.

Here I also establish my horizon line and the major vanishing point.

Fig. C - Once I've got the sketch looking pretty much how I want it, I start to firm up everything that isn't going to be affected by the vanishing point --that is, the structures that are facing us head on and won't recede into the distance.
This is where you break out your straight edges and triangles and make sure everything is square and level.

You can see that I'm already dividing up rectangles in the way I described in Fig.A. This is so I can find the center and keep everything symmetrical.

[carynord]

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7821/cimg1467.jpg (http://img16.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cimg1467.jpg)

Next I'll start adding the perspective lines in creating depth.

I've introduced a couple more vanishing points onto the horizon line here - one for the doorway on the corner and one for the lamp post(which will be street lights soon). Remember, a perfectly accurate drawing is not the comic artists goal- he only wants it to look believable... and cool.

I broke out a circle guide for the main window frame and put a dot in the center so that the brickwork in the semi-circle would fan out nicely.

You can see I've divided the window up into 8 panels. It's not like that in the picture but who cares - this is my world, right? I've also divided the panel underneath the window into 4 parts using the same technique (that is in the picture).

As you start adding cars and people pay close attention to relative proportions. The person has to look like he/she can fit into the doorway on the corner as well as fit into the parked car.

I'm going to draw up a few more examples of dividing squares and rectangles up tonight or tomorrow because there's some specific things I want to address.

[carynord]

...so what YOU guys need to do is bring your drawings up to this level. Feedback?

[j giar]

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/9640/dudleypharmacy2735265.jpg (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dudleypharmacy2735265.jpg)

I'd like everyone to draw this same scene so we can all address the same problems and challenges.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/149/cimg1466w.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cimg1466w.jpg)



Call me a Newb, but the whole dividing thing I learned just now....how embarrassing is that. I hope we sticky this damn thing.

[Justice41]

Heh. Cary do you know how to plot a perspective? I do architectural renderings for a living. If you don't know what a plot perspective is I can mock up a step by stepper but it's really advanced and should be attempted once you have mastered the basics. I'll mock one up just in case.

[Justice41]

Call me a Newb, but the whole dividing thing I learned just now....how embarrassing is that. I hope we sticky this damn thing.
Also you can also make perfect squares tis way by marking out even spaces and using a 45 degree triangle to configure a square. Kinda like going backwards from what Cary showed here

[punkpenciler]

this post helps out a lot. the biggest thing for me is when i should put the people inside the background. like should i do the people to a certain point and then finish up the background? i don' tknow if that made any sense...buttt this is a good visual. thanks man

[Justice41]

I use people to block the Vanishing Point and other things I don't want to draw.

[Scribbly]

I use people to block the Vanishing Point and other things I don't want to draw.
ha! Old hack! :laugh:
Me too :w00t:
I do the same. ;)

Excellent starting master Cary! :thumbs:

[Funfetus]

this post helps out a lot. the biggest thing for me is when i should put the people inside the background. like should i do the people to a certain point and then finish up the background? i don' tknow if that made any sense...buttt this is a good visual. thanks manI think it might help to think of figures as a part of the scene instead of apart from it. Place your figures from the beginning -- use a block as a "bounding box" if it helps. Remember, these aren't backgrounds, they're environments. Your figures aren't in front of them, they're IN them.

[carynord]

Call me a Newb, but the whole dividing thing I learned just now....how embarrassing is that. I hope we sticky this damn thing.

Ah, not a big deal, man. I used to divy everything up numerically. What a pain in the ass... not to mention, inaccurate.

[carynord]

this post helps out a lot. the biggest thing for me is when i should put the people inside the background. like should i do the people to a certain point and then finish up the background? i don' tknow if that made any sense...buttt this is a good visual. thanks man

As I said, it's not really that important to make everything 100% accurate, only 100% believable. Check your proportions against everything else you've established. Figure that a door is 7 feet high and your average person is just under 6 feet high. If the person looks like he'll fit through the door... good enough.

When to put them in? Right away. The first thing you do is establish your horizon line, then where you want your figures in relation to that line. After that it's just a matter of filling everything else in. We'll get into this down the line.

[jakebilbao]

ok, this is just a supplement to what cary has already posted. and all of what he said is all good!

ok, first off the tools we use is very vital in producing good quality artworks. so for perspective works, having a parallel ruler, a triangle and a good table to work on is a big plus. sure anyone can make all this without anything but a pencil and paper, but it really helps if you have these tools for a more faster production.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b42/jakebilbao/IMG_5899.jpg

next, cary already taught you guys how to divide a square. learn from it. i am here to teach you guys a trick in trimming the lines you will be drawing onto the paper so you wouldn't have to erase that much lines.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b42/jakebilbao/IMG_5896.jpg
instead of drawing another diagonal line that you would just erase in the final drawing, you could place a marker like the one above


http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b42/jakebilbao/IMG_5898.jpg

ok, the numbers i placed above are in the right order of how i got the marks for the divisions of the square.
1) i first made a diagonal line from one end of the square to the other diagonally.
2) instead of doing another whole diagonal line opposite the first one, i just placed a small marker where the two lines must meet.
3)ok, this is where your parallel ruler and traingle comes into play, instaed of tracing a line from the middle marker i made, i just made small marks on the top and bottom lines.
for the fourth and fifth line, i just redid the process.



ok, if this is all confusing, just stick with cary's tutorial. :har:

[carynord]

I think it might help to think of figures as a part of the scene instead of apart from it. Place your figures from the beginning -- use a block as a "bounding box" if it helps. Remember, these aren't backgrounds, they're environments. Your figures aren't in front of them, they're IN them.

exactly.

[carynord]

ok, the numbers i placed above are in the right order of how i got the marks for the divisions of the square.
1) i first made a diagonal line from one end of the square to the other diagonally.
2) instead of doing another whole diagonal line opposite the first one, i just placed a small marker where the two lines must meet.
3)ok, this is where your parallel ruler and traingle comes into play, instaed of tracing a line from the middle marker i made, i just made small marks on the top and bottom lines.
for the fourth and fifth line, i just redid the process.


ok, if this is all confusing, just stick with cary's tutorial. :har:

I do all my preliminary sketches in my sketchbook at quarter size. I do this so that I can make as big a mess as I want in the sketchbook with millions of lines everywhere and then just trace it out for the final copy. Honestly, I don't know how you guys work at full size.

[Random Chance]

Over the last few years I have read and practiced as many one, two and three point perspective tutorials as I can find in an effort to get a more solid grounding in technical drawing. Tutorials like this are a gold mine! Its one thing to be able to draw a mathematically correct cube from any angel it’s another thing completely to translate that into a street scene.

[jmedors]

I agree with cary. I try to keep the initial go at the perspective small, then blow it up on the copier, or scan it in and blow it up in photoshop, print it out, and hit the light box. A lot of times if you try and do your perspective work actual size, you'll end up with vanishing points so far apart, you need a couple yard sticks, and about a ten foot square table. some times you can get away with working actual size, but I have found that in anything other than one point perspective it's usually pretty tough. Also if you are like me, I like my finished pencils to look nice and clean. A task hard to accomplish if you do all of your perspective work on your final board.

Love the lesson so far! I know there is a running thread on the site somewhere with some reference links and such, but I think we should list good reference Book titles pertaining to each lesson.

[Gav Heryng]

I'm pretty comfortable with 1 point perspective, so I might sit this bit out as I've got a bit of a full plate at the moment.

Does anyone mind if I jump in on 2 and 3 point perspective as that's where I usually get a bit stuck?

Gav

[galmando]

i'll be dabbling with mine once i finish work and shut my girlfriend up! (she doesn't like me drawing when she's there)

[twistercomics]

What is the dealine for this. I am working non stop till 1am tonight. Anyway i can post this tomorrow?

[shinlyle]

Well, I'll have to do mine over the weekend. I've got a cover to finish up, and dinner with friends and family tonight. I hope to give a shot, though, as one can always get better...especially in my case!

[horror101]

Thanks for doing this. It's really amazing that your taking the time.

[j giar]

What is the dealine for this. I am working non stop till 1am tonight. Anyway i can post this tomorrow?

I believe we have a week, like normal draw offs. Cary or another mod can confirm it.

[carynord]

Heh. Cary do you know how to plot a perspective? I do architectural renderings for a living. If you don't know what a plot perspective is I can mock up a step by stepper but it's really advanced and should be attempted once you have mastered the basics. I'll mock one up just in case.


Is that like working from a floor plan? I'm familiar with the concept but I've never actually tried it.

Yeah, please share!

[carynord]

I believe we have a week, like normal draw offs. Cary or another mod can confirm it.

Sure, a week is fine although I'm re-thinking this approach. I'm going to start another, more accessible demonstration that I really think everyone (even you, Gav;)) should try.

This one may be a little vast in scope; I feel like I've scared a lot of people off.

[JAQ]

I use people to block the Vanishing Point and other things I don't want to draw.With most things you don't want to draw, that's no big deal, but if you put someone in front of a vanishing point to obscure it, make sure you draw him well, and he ought to be someone fairly important... because the vanishing point is also a natural focal point. With all those lines (even implies lines) converging on that point, the eye is naturally drawn toward that spot.

[shinlyle]

Personally, I like putting key charcters over the vanshing point on covers/splash pages, it really helps to lure the eye to the character/spot you want....especially with pieces that have alot going on in them!

[jar]

http://www.angelaroy.ca/jar/cn001.jpg

Ok. Not how I usually do perspective, but damn learning new stuff is the BEST!
Thanks Cary for doing this.

Some problems I noticed in what I do when doing perspective, is shading. I end up getting lost in it, and my lines loose their "straight-ness."

Something to def. improve on. Thanks again!

[Justice41]

Is that like working from a floor plan? I'm familiar with the concept but I've never actually tried it.

Yeah, please share!
Yup. I have to accurately draw a building or house so that way is the only way..... until 3D Apps of course. i'll get one done. Imagine trying to do this building without plot perspective? This is a hi rise condo in Miami. This drawing was a real pain to do.
http://home.comcast.net/~justice4one/Hirise.jpg

[madelf]

Okay... this is about all I have time for. I may fiddle with it some more before the deadline, but no promises. It's looking like things will be busy.
http://www.madelf.net/streetsketch.JPG

I have a somewhat odd method for doing perspectives. I did this (outside of the figures) in a 2d computer drafting program. Please note that my program does not do automatic 3d, so this is still a drawn perspective - I just didn't use a pencil and ruler. It does help me go a little faster (and I can have my vanishing points across town if I want because the drawing board is effectively infinite) but it's not like I'm using Sketchup or something.

What I usually do is print out the cadd drawing to use as a base, sketch in whatever else I want to include, lightbox it, and then redraw the whole thing by hand for a more organic feel. This is pretty much straight out of the computer at this stage though.

Edit:
Oh, and I did take some liberties with the building. Hope that's okay.

[carynord]

http://www.angelaroy.ca/jar/cn001.jpg

Ok. Not how I usually do perspective, but damn learning new stuff is the BEST!
Thanks Cary for doing this.

Some problems I noticed in what I do when doing perspective, is shading. I end up getting lost in it, and my lines loose their "straight-ness."

Something to def. improve on. Thanks again!

Hey, awesome! Quick turn around on this, dude.

Okay, crit time, guys! I'm not pulling punches here. I want you guys to get the jobs you want -- so no crying!

This is what I would consider a good sketch. If this is how you finish your backgrounds in an actual comic sample --not good enough, man. It's holding you back.

You need to slow down and dot your i's and cross your t's. You've generalized a lot of things and couldn't be bothered to draw things correctly or even straight. That translates as sloppy and lazy. I'd be tempted to think that if you can't finish off one single drawing, you can't finish a book.

Guys, everything you do in your samples should be mind-blowing... samples are the only time you'll EVER have all the time you want to do your best work. Editors are expecting 100% from you in your samples. If you're half-assing it in your samples, you're going to be that much worse under a deadline.

Your actual perspective looks good. Nothing looks wrong - you understand what you're doing, but you have to see this to completion.

I LOVE the looseness of your tree. Beautiful! That would really be a nice contrast to tightly rendered buildings.

Trace over this and try it again and make it tight. Watch as I continue to develop my piece. What I've shown is about 2 hrs of solid work so far and it's barely at the halfway point. It's the tiny details that really sell the world you're trying to create... more importantly, it's those little details that will get an editors attention, assuming that's what you're after.

[jakebilbao]

I do all my preliminary sketches in my sketchbook at quarter size. I do this so that I can make as big a mess as I want in the sketchbook with millions of lines everywhere and then just trace it out for the final copy. Honestly, I don't know how you guys work at full size.
yeah, doing the layouts on a smaller piece of paper then blowing it up is probably more time efficient, but i don't have the means to do it when i started. :) i had to learn to draw big. and i got used to it. i heard in an interview with lienil yu that he also does it the same way you do, and i thought about trying it out. i think i'll save time with the method you guys use.

[crozonia]

Yup. I have to accurately draw a building or house so that way is the only way..... until 3D Apps of course. i'll get one done. Imagine trying to do this building without plot perspective? This is a hi rise condo in Miami. This drawing was a real pain to do.
http://home.comcast.net/~justice4one/Hirise.jpg

That's fantastic. Wow. Yes please share plot perspective. I have never heard of it.

[carynord]

Yup. I have to accurately draw a building or house so that way is the only way..... until 3D Apps of course. i'll get one done. Imagine trying to do this building without plot perspective? This is a hi rise condo in Miami. This drawing was a real pain to do.
http://home.comcast.net/~justice4one/Hirise.jpg


So awesome.

Guys, this the kind of quality work that you should aspire to. Look at all the detail and interest. You could sit back and look at this for hours.

Imagine Superman flying around in this environment! I'd buy that comic, wouldn't you?

[jakebilbao]

oh, one quick suggestion about this turning to be like the draw-offs.

there might be guys who somewhere down the line would like to participate in one of these. and if he sees that the polls are up and votings have been counted, he or she gets turned off. and there is this other thing that this is about one's personal growth to becoming better as an artist, and other artists who would want to help out. then there is another lesson to be learned about deadlines.

Basically what i'm suggesting is, if someone wants to join in one of these exercises, he or she posts an intent to join post and one week after his post of intent, that will be his deadline.or if he/she wants a shorter deadline they could post the date. they do it or they won't it's up to them.

self discipline! ;) and this wouldn't be too tiring in cary's part because all he will need to do is to come up with the exercise! cool?!

[khoipham]

justice: that. is. awesome.

[carynord]

Okay... this is about all I have time for. I may fiddle with it some more before the deadline, but no promises. It's looking like things will be busy.
http://www.madelf.net/streetsketch.JPG

I have a somewhat odd method for doing perspectives. I did this (outside of the figures) in a 2d computer drafting program. Please note that my program does not do automatic 3d, so this is still a drawn perspective - I just didn't use a pencil and ruler. It does help me go a little faster (and I can have my vanishing points across town if I want because the drawing board is effectively infinite) but it's not like I'm using Sketchup or something.

What I usually do is print out the cadd drawing to use as a base, sketch in whatever else I want to include, lightbox it, and then redraw the whole thing by hand for a more organic feel. This is pretty much straight out of the computer at this stage though.

Edit:
Oh, and I did take some liberties with the building. Hope that's okay.

I don't care how you do, as long as you do it. And take as many liberties with the reference as you want.

This is another good sketch. This is something that i might trace to do my final drawing on bristol board with the expectation that I'll have some structural work to do on the finished copy.

The first thing I noticed is the complete lack of life in this drawing. It's cold, man... so cold. lol.
It's also a little flat. Your windows look amateurish and lacking in depth. They're also standing apart from the laws of perspective as though someone pasted a poster of a window onto a building. Look closely at the reference... you'll see how it should look.

I'm going to post a 'window tutorial' tonight so you can see how to handle a window.

I think you could have also taken a few chances with this too. You kept it safe using only one perspective point. Adding angles in your picture will add interest. Once you have your horizon line established, you can put another vanishing point anywhere you want on that line (as long as it looks good) and create all the angles you want in correct perspective. And you can put as many vanishing points on that line as you want.
In my sketch, I used 3 vanishing points.

I like the reflection in the window! That was a a nice touch.

One other thing to keep in mind... comics are all about exaggeration. You'll notice in my sketch, I made the frame around that main window larger and thicker than shown in the picture. It's the most interesting part of the whole picture so I wanted to exaggerate and showcase it.

In my opinion, Chris Bachelo does some of the most interesting architecture in comics. It's so fun to look at. He's a master of exaggeration and he makes everything feel very natural and comfortable. That's the advantage the artist has over a camera.

Good effort!

[Jon Dahl]

So awesome.

Guys, this the kind of quality work that you should aspire to. Look at all the detail and interest. You could sit back and look at this for hours.

Imagine Superman flying around in this environment! I'd buy that comic, wouldn't you?

I keep scrolling up and down on it! It's like an animation! :w00t:
Here's some words used to describe it: Extreme, great, huge, worthy of fellation, humongous, massive, monstrous, monumental, overwhelming.

[Justice41]

that drawing is also pretty small at 11x17 inch. I usually draw at 24x36 inch for large commercial properties like this.
Cary i think the folks thought you only wanted a simple sketch instead of an ink or color ready rendering.

[carynord]

Cary i think the folks thought you only wanted a simple sketch instead of an ink or color ready rendering.

Hell no! I want to see something totally awesome! lol.

Right, well, if it's not finished, guys, keep those crits in mind while you're finishing up.

I realize it would be very helpful if the tutorial was actually finished... it's going to take a couple days for me to complete. Don't let me take the wind out of your sails. Stick with me and we'll get everyone's work up to snuff.

[Justice41]

I keep scrolling up and down on it! It's like an animation! :w00t:
Here's some words used to describe it: Extreme, great, huge, worthy of fellation, humongous, massive, monstrous, monumental, overwhelming.
I've done thousands of this type and simple warehouses and houses. Thousands. I bet I could draw in my sleep. Last sample before i post up the sample of Plot perspective. This was drawn on a sheet of vellum 40 inches wide done with a series of Rapidographs and Artpens by Rotring. This is actually a one point perspective to some degree.
I'll post the tutorial as a link so it doesn't distract from the lessons. i'll be making these two large images links later today for the same reason.
http://home.comcast.net/~justice4one/tampabay.jpg

[Justice41]

The quality of the scans is poor as they are scanned from Photostats. Ahhh the days before scanners and computers.

[crozonia]

That explains that guy's jacket :)

The quality of the scans is poor as they are scanned from Photostats. Ahhh the days before scanners and computers.

[madelf]

This is another good sketch. This is something that i might trace to do my final drawing on bristol board with the expectation that I'll have some structural work to do on the finished copy.
Oh yeah. This is just a sketch. Not even really a complete sketch, I wanted to work it some more -add additional cars, some details on the buildings in the background, misc odds and ends.

I misunderstood and thought we were supposed to do a sketch and then we'd be finishing it as a second step. Oops. :slap:

The first thing I noticed is the complete lack of life in this drawing. It's cold, man... so cold. lol.Yeah. That's the cadd program. Very mechanical. And there's NO variation in lineweight in thedrawing at all (there can be if I'd wanted to mess with it, of course, but I didn't bother as I would be tracing it for the final).

Thanks for the pointers. I'll try and get more of a finished version put together for later.

[Random Chance]

Justice41 your Plot perspective=Awesome. Piloting stuff out actually sends me crazy I'm a scribbler not a drafter but I still want to do it and am looking forward to your tutorial.

[The Art Keeper]

great assignment, Cary. I'll be doing this over the weekend, also. You didn't scare me off, i appreciate you jumping right into it. Please don't hold back in the future!

[ChrisMcJunkin]

I got about an hour and some change in today. I'll post my progress tomorrow.

[Thunder Rat]

So if I post now, I've got till next friday to post?

Yeah, man. Right now, let's just keep it casual while the enthusiasm is high. I don't really have any idea how to lead something like this, so I'm learning too. After I get a system down, I'll impose those heavy deadlines. ;)

[Caio Reis]

I've done thousands of this type and simple warehouses and houses. Thousands. I bet I could draw in my sleep. Last sample before i post up the sample of Plot perspective. This was drawn on a sheet of vellum 40 inches wide done with a series of Rapidographs and Artpens by Rotring. This is actually a one point perspective to some degree.
I'll post the tutorial as a link so it doesn't distract from the lessons. i'll be making these two large images links later today for the same reason.
http://home.comcast.net/~justice4one/tampabay.jpg

:blink: I think we'll also need a "Justice41 drawing tips" section!!!

This whole thing is trully amazing! From Cary's willingness to lead the pack to everyone joining and participating and contributing...I don't think I've ever seen such commitment on a on-line forum! Congrats to everyone!

[j giar]

Here's some words used to describe it: Extreme, great, huge, worthy of fellation, humongous, massive, monstrous, monumental, overwhelming.

Gargantuan.

[carynord]

Oh yeah. This is just a sketch. Not even really a complete sketch, I wanted to work it some more -add additional cars, some details on the buildings in the background, misc odds and ends.

I misunderstood and thought we were supposed to do a sketch and then we'd be finishing it as a second step. Oops. :slap:

Yeah. That's the cadd program. Very mechanical. And there's NO variation in lineweight in thedrawing at all (there can be if I'd wanted to mess with it, of course, but I didn't bother as I would be tracing it for the final).

Thanks for the pointers. I'll try and get more of a finished version put together for later.

No, man, it's a really good first step. If you develop it more, it'll be great! I'm going to really try to push you guys with every ounce of critism I can muster because that's what you're going to face when dealing with editors.

Think of editors as a hot girl; they have a million different applicants to choose from... you gotta stand apart from everyone else.

[carynord]

:blink: I think we'll also need a "Justice41 drawing tips" section!!!



I second this. The guy knows more than I do and you'd be lucky to get a tutorial from the likes of him! He embodies true professionalism (sorry, dude! You're implicated now*insert evil laugh here* which I learned from you, btw)!

Seriously, aim for Justice's kind of quality in your own work. Hold yourself to high standards!

[Scribbly]

Excellent renderings Justice!!
Did you build these over CAD based structures
or its all handmade from scratch?

Anyways, excellent work.
Love the level of detail and finishing.

[Justice41]

Floorplans from the architect and landscape plans and city Arial photos of the site. Plot projection perspective sketch. had to do the sketch a few times to get the right angle but I just make boxes at the beginning so it's not a big deal. Then pencils and finally inks. I ink with rapidographs and artpens on canson vellum. This is old. Maybe 10+ years old. here's the building as it looks built. Changes were made to the final actual building. Not sure why but there you go.
http://sefmls.goidx.com/SEFimages/46/M1293742_201_12.jpg
I did this color rendering as well.
http://www.condadovanderbilthotel.com/images/ownership_pic.jpg
Click here (http://home.comcast.net/~justice4one/Vanderbilt.jpg) to see what My original inks and watercolors looked like before they butchered it.

[Justice41]

Here is the quick floorplans i drew for the tutorial. So study it. ;)
http://home.comcast.net/~justice4one/perspectivetutorial1.jpg

[raya]

Just wondering, what do you guys think of using 3D programs for references?

[Justice41]

Just wondering, what do you guys think of using 3D programs for references?
If you don't have an eye, built on the basics, for proper looking stuff even what you can produce with a 3D app will not help. Once you know how and why something is it's easier to apply to 3D. I see a lot of 3D art that is dead and really angular.

[madelf]

Well, I ended up with some free time today, so I dove in and re-worked my sketch into a drawing. And, since I was given the green-light to take liberties with the reference... I decided to do a little time-traveling.

http://www.madelf.net/street2.jpg

So tear it up, Cary (and anyone else who has any thoughts should feel free to crit me too).

[Justice41]

Well, I ended up with some free time today, so I dove in and re-worked my sketch into a drawing. And, since I was given the green-light to take liberties with the reference... I decided to do a little time-traveling.

http://www.madelf.net/street2.jpg

So tear it up, Cary (and anyone else who has any thoughts should feel free to crit me too).
Shadows and shades. A simple way to determine shadows is with an adjustable triangle. To figure out shadows just draw a line from the top of the object using the adjustable triangle(AT). Using an arbitrary vanishing point off to the far right or left draw a line from the bottom of the objects and where ever the two lines meet is the shadows cast. By adjusting the AT from 45 degrees up or down you can show different times of the day. Night time is a whole nudder story.
http://home.comcast.net/~justice4one/shadows.jpg

[marcom]

this is such a great exercise. a little to swamped to jump in, but i may have some of my students give it a shot.

mad elf- good study.

[Saul Haber]

Damn it. I might have to jump in on this...

[Ray Dillon]

Started on mine a couple of days ago. Having trouble finding time to finish it with deadlines galore, but I will. Wanted to let you know I didn't just make a fuss about the whole thing and then vanish. ;)

Madelf - Great adaptation of the scene!

[JamieRoberts]

I'm kinda midway through right now, and it's just made me realise how little I understand. I'm re-reading David Chelsea's book (invaluable, indeed) and hopefully making progress. However, I'm going to start again on my interpretation because even with the best will, I managed to lay shaky foundations for the pic.

[Ray Dillon]

Yeah, David Chelsea's book is gold. When I learned of the grid shortcut system, that helped so much.

Jamie, I'm very much looking forward to seeing yours. I'm sure it will be unique.

[JamieRoberts]

Yeah, David Chelsea's book is gold. When I learned of the grid shortcut system, that helped so much.

Jamie, I'm very much looking forward to seeing yours. I'm sure it will be unique.
That would be one way of putting it, yeah....

To be honest, the vector stuff has allowed me to get lazy and forget basics. I'm totally ignoring my usual style for this.

[Sequential76]

Hey that Jasck-a$$ in the pick-up is parked right on the cross walk! Someone should draw hulk smashing him.
:)

[madelf]

Justice41:
Great tip. Thanks.
Now I'll have to find my adjustable triangle.

Marcom and Ray Dillon:
Thanks guys. I'm glad you liked it.

[Sequential76]

Hey Cary,
I really dig your work and I'm open to any suggestions.
Thanks!
http://www.sequential76.com/images/misc/Nord_DW_lo.jpg

[Sequential76]

http://www.sequential76.com/images/misc/Perspective%20secrets.jpg
This is a great review book, there's a part on atmospheric perspective that I think is worth a look. Libraries usually have this book.

[Justice41]

Hey Cary,
I really dig your work and I'm open to any suggestions.
Thanks!
http://www.sequential76.com/images/misc/Nord_DW_lo.jpg
See how you did that outcropping window, If the window pushes out like this one does then when you did your dividing to find the center of the square thing you forgot to project out the center line.

[MrGranger]

I'm also on this. I was going to post something I whipped up...but after the first post got slammed for not being finished I re-thought that. I'll be working this week during my lunch to try and finish something nice for ya'll.

[Sequential76]

See how you did that outcropping window, If the window pushes out like this one does then when you did your dividing to find the center of the square thing you forgot to project out the center line.

I see what your're saying, Thanks.

[Justice41]

I see what your're saying, Thanks.
It also helps when doing shadows as you now have a starting point to project shadows from. Funny thing is if you do all the groundwork properly you can use shadows only to convey the structure. It's a fun exercise .

[Sequential76]

http://www.sequential76.com/images/misc/perspective_practice.jpg

[ChrisMcJunkin]

Been slowing going this week, working on closing on our new home so that's been eating up much of my time. I should have something to post by Wednesday though. Just wanted to let it be known that I'm still in on this.

[carynord]

http://www.sequential76.com/images/misc/perspective_practice.jpg

Looks good, man. Really great composition. The detail is all there. Your perspective is solid. I don't know if you consider this finished or not, but it still feels a little rough around the edges. It's definitely good enough to be in a comic - in fact I think an editor would be thrilled if you could consistently put this kind of quality work in - but I think you could put a little more polish on it for a sample piece.
You don't want to spare any effort in a sample - go the extra mile! If I were you, I'd trace this out on a lightbox and clean it up. Make sure everything is crisp.

The shading on the sidewalk and the street are going to be a little hard for an inker to interpret. If you want it solid black, take the time to shade it all in. This is a sample, you have nothing but time. Always think how an inker is going to interpret your lines. Vagueness can lead to a big mess in the final product.

Of course, this all depends on your style, some guys don't have a polished style. I really liked the energy in your first sketch and, with the exception of that error that Justice pointed out, I thought it was pretty cool --assuming it would have jived with how you draw figures and such. You'd have to find the perfect inker to ink it, but it was appealing.

If you have a solid foundation you can finish it however you want.

[carynord]

Well, I ended up with some free time today, so I dove in and re-worked my sketch into a drawing. And, since I was given the green-light to take liberties with the reference... I decided to do a little time-traveling.

http://www.madelf.net/street2.jpg

So tear it up, Cary (and anyone else who has any thoughts should feel free to crit me too).

It's good, madelf. I like the time period adaptation!

The perspective is well done, but you are still lacking 'life' in this. 'Life' is a hard thing to explain and an even harder thing to capture. I think not skipping out on the details is a good way to add more 'life' to your work. You missed a lot of opportunities to capture some cool details. There's all sorts of stuff in the window frames that you left out that would really add some interest to this.
Take a look at all the stuff Sequential 76 put into his piece. Tons of nice little things to look at.

I think your outlines are too heavy in this. It creates a sort of crude feel to the piece. The refinement comes from studying how light affects line weights. For a well balanced picture, you should be able to add in nothing but the shadows - no contour lines at all- and still be able to tell what you're looking at.
Get your hands on an old black and white photo, turn up the contrast so that only the shadows are showing up and draw that. You'll get a good feel for how lights and shadows work. Start incorporating that into your work.

Also, I think you could have taken a few more chances with the number of vanishing points you used. You made everything flow back to that one vanishing point. Adding little angles to things creates interest and 'life'.

If you're unclear on how to do that, I can give an example. Let me know.

[Saul Haber]

Originally Posted by Justice41
See how you did that outcropping window, If the window pushes out like this one does then when you did your dividing to find the center of the square thing you forgot to project out the center line.

How do you project out the center line? I always have that problem.

[Justice41]

http://home.comcast.net/~justice4one/sample.jpg

[JamieRoberts]

http://home.comcast.net/~justice4one/sample.jpg
Nice one, I was having that problem too.

[Scribbly]

Analyzing and reading the given image,
As I see Justice already answered about the projected center point.
Every object projected from the main element has his own V.P which
are different from the main element's V.P. but they all work with the same horizon line.
That's the tricky part to understand in the image.
These window have inclined planes who are ending in the horizon line having their own V.P.
Also we should consider the projection and proportion of the figures in relation with the building.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p214/yeyed/vanishingpoints.jpg

[Gav Heryng]

So, just to confirm, we're doing this as one (primary) point perspective?

Gav

[madelf]

It's good, madelf. I like the time period adaptation!
Thanks.
I wanted to do something different than just reproducing what was in front of me. It's often hard to find reference that reflects exactly what you're looking for, so I wanted to prove to myself that I could adapt the reference to something else.

Of course, I shot myself in the foot with that, too. I changed the architectural style of the building and then didn't add new detail to replace what I'd eliminated (like the pop-out windows, trim details, and angled corner). Probably partly a lack of courage. In general, I SUCK at perspective, so I think I instinctively played it safe - which is the opposite of what I should have been doing. I still think working through the excercise did me some good though, and I've definitely learned some things that I can use later.

Good tips on the line weight and shadows too. Shadows are another of the (many) weak areas I need to work on, but I don't think I'd have spotted the line weight problem on my own.

Thanks!

[zcotty]

Analyzing and reading the given image,
As I see Justice already answered about the projected center point.
Every object projected from the main element has his own V.P which
are different from the main element's V.P. but they all work with the same horizon line.
That's the tricky part to understand in the image.
These window have inclined planes who are ending in the horizon line having their own V.P.
Also we should consider the projection and proportion of the figures in relation with the building.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p214/yeyed/vanishingpoints.jpg


Thanks. Thats really helpful.

It's all there, but sometimes it needs to be pointed out. :)

[MBirkhofer]

Just wanted to pipe in and say thanks for this.

I'll be playing along at home. haha.
When I have something worth a real look over I'll post, but for now, just doing it at home, and reading/reviewing everyone elses works and crits is a huge help.

[dave_hearn]

Well, this is interesting! I just came into this thread and I think I'll participate!

Thanks for sharing with us, Cary!

-Dave

[Random Chance]

I am on my third attempt at this Image! Even failing so badly has been pretty helpful to me

[Dnld]

this was great practice. thanks cary and justice. i did a rough job on mine and it's definitely incomplete but i wanted to get some advice before this thread ends. i'm posting the drawing i did with a second numbered one so i can point out areas where i have questions.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a399/duckdoodle/perspective.jpg


sorry. some of the numbers are hard to see
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a399/duckdoodle/perspectivehelp.jpg

1 and 3: i completely eyeballed the stoplights. i had no idea what vanishing point they used or how to do the covers on the top so they looked consistent.

2: i wanted to do those curved ends that i see on top of columns or corners of buildings but i wasn't sure how to approach. i just hinted at an impression of what i wanted but its all wrong.

4: i didn't do this side of the top windows because i taped my paper on the corner of my table. i didn't want people to wonder.

thanks for any advice guys.

[carynord]

1 and 3: i completely eyeballed the stoplights. i had no idea what vanishing point they used or how to do the covers on the top so they looked consistent.

2: i wanted to do those curved ends that i see on top of columns or corners of buildings but i wasn't sure how to approach. i just hinted at an impression of what i wanted but its all wrong.

4: i didn't do this side of the top windows because i taped my paper on the corner of my table. i didn't want people to wonder.

thanks for any advice guys.[/QUOTE]

Hey, looks like a good start! Nice composition, nice detailing...

1. You're just setting up a 2-point perspective along the same horizon line... so add one more vanishing point on the right side of the main 1-point perspective vanishing point and voila!

2. First of all, the end of the structure should correspond to the main 1 pt vanishing point --right now you have it on the same angle as the one you used to set up your window. To do the curves you just have to draw a rectangular box around it, draw out the design on the end of the box, and add in your perspective lines. I might do a quick tutorial on this later.

[Dnld]

thanks again for the advice cary.

[ChrisMcJunkin]

Finally got to sit down and finish up the pencils for this.

http://fc62.deviantart.com/fs45/f/2009/077/0/d/Street_Study_by_ChrisMcJ.jpg

I'll probably look at this tomorrow and see 20 things that look off.:P

Rip it up! :happy:

[Justice41]

A quote from Travis charest on how he does what he does.(Travis Charest)Step 3 - Polish and Prep
Now I've got a basic composition that I'm ready to tighten up and prepare to paint. This means making any straight lines actually straight, circles real circles, and the little bits that I've only roughed in until this point clearer. Now, this is the point where I will go two different ways depending on whether or not I am working with an inker/colorist or if I'm finishing the piece myself. If I'm working with others, I try to make the pencils as clean and precise as possible, this is just a personal choice, I don't want to kick myself later because something didn't turn out the way I had planned, the inker can't read your mind and unless you've worked together for a long time, all those little things that made perfect sense to you will just look like clutter to the inker.

If I'm going to finish the piece myself, this is where I ease up on the pencils, leaving a lot of the finished rendering to the painting stage, no sense drawing the same thing twice. I still try to keep the drawing very clean however. If I am going to have some lights or special effects on the page, I will sometimes draw these in the actual color that they will be painted in later, eliminating the telltale black lines. If I am going to have hot whites or highlights I try to keep these as clean and "white" as possible.

I use Rapidiograhps, Copic markers and brushes for the ink rendering. I prefer the white synthetic brushes (I like them because they are cheaper and easy to find and maintain). When I have my greyscale drawing finished it's time to paint.

[Ray Dillon]

Chris- This looks great! There are some lines in the upper right that look off to me, but that's the only thing I noticed right off the bat. Good clean work.

[jakebilbao]

ok, here's mine:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b42/jakebilbao/BattleThingsDrawoffcopy.jpg
lol! i had to combine the two to save time! :har:

[carynord]

ok, here's mine:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b42/jakebilbao/BattleThingsDrawoffcopy.jpg
lol! i had to combine the two to save time! :har:

Mm. Nope. Fail.


:nyah:

[jakebilbao]

:laugh:

darn another art school i flunked at! :laugh: :laugh:

[Random Chance]

I totally Overcooked this (and that's one of the reasons I'm not a pro!) exaggerated some bits mostly for perspective practice but that ended up having a knock on effect of inconstant scaling. and this was the third attempt (after binning the fist 2 efforts) but the advice in this thread has been pretty impressive so I thought I would show my mess anyway.

I need to write 'simple is elegant' on a piece of paper and stick it on my board every time i start to draw.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3439/3368881680_9e31371b45_o.jpg

[carynord]

I totally Overcooked this (and that's one of the reasons I'm not a pro!) exaggerated some bits mostly for perspective practice but that ended up having a knock on effect of inconstant scaling. and this was the third attempt (after binning the fist 2 efforts) but the advice in this thread has been pretty impressive so I thought I would show my mess anyway.

I need to write 'simple is elegant' on a piece of paper and stick it on my board every time i start to draw.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3439/3368881680_9e31371b45_o.jpg

Also write, 'detail and nice pen work is COOL'. Beautiful stuff --especially all that reflected light and texture and different tones. Great balance of lights and darks.

The only thing I don't like is how you handled the shading on the glass in the windows. It seems at odds with the careful rendering you put everywhere else. I'd like to see something more consistent with the rest of the piece. Also, not keen on the background buildings. They don't show the same sophistication as the foreground building --because you made them up instead of using reference. Grab reference for EVERYTHING. If you don't like the ref available in this pic, grab something from somewhere else and incorporate it into this one. If you're making it up, you're being lazy.

[Random Chance]

Thanks :) You're totality right, shamefully I get frustrated and sort of give up. having said that thanks to photoshop could still mask out the bits I clearly didn't put the work in and polish them off. it's just finishing touches really and it's pretty important not to skimp on them like I do.

[William Blankenship]

It's so cool being able to go through and see so many different takes on the same pic. Sorry I didn't have time to jump in on this one. I'm going to see if I can make time this week.

[shinlyle]

Finally got to sit down and finish up the pencils for this.

http://fc62.deviantart.com/fs45/f/2009/077/0/d/Street_Study_by_ChrisMcJ.jpg

I'll probably look at this tomorrow and see 20 things that look off.:P

Rip it up! :happy:

Good looking stuff, man!

[carynord]

Finally got to sit down and finish up the pencils for this.

http://fc62.deviantart.com/fs45/f/2009/077/0/d/Street_Study_by_ChrisMcJ.jpg

I'll probably look at this tomorrow and see 20 things that look off.:P

Rip it up! :happy:

Pretty tight work. Your rendering gives it an interesting feel - almost like an editorial cartoon which is cool.

There's a few things that stand out to me.
This whole scene seems to lean to the right a little bit, at first it was hard to say why, but looking closer I noticed your perspective is way off in some places. You've got both one and two point perspective happening on the same building; you have to keep it consistent. The lower half of the building is straight and the top half is in 2 point.
Check out how others handled that triangular overhang part of the building - you should be able to see the underside of the overhang, but you can't in yours. Remember, all your vanishing points relate to the horizon line so if you're lining something up that doesn't lead to a point on your horizon, it's wrong.
On the other overhang, your perspective is out on that ledge under the window but you seemed to nail the angle otherwise. An oversight, maybe? Double check your work before you finish and when you see something out, go back in and fix it. It's the difference between a good picture and a great picture.
On a minor note, I noticed that the girl walking away from us is kinda small and the other people on the right are a little too big. The girl and the people off to the side are pretty close in size to the original - keep that in mind when you're drawing.
And lastly, your windows feel a little amateurish. I think they could use a little depth and shadow. Not all of your vertical lines are perpendicular, I think this is part of why your picture seems to lean. Make sure you take the time to make everything plumb. If it's not right, erase and make it right.

Good job overall. You got lots of cool details in there and I like the feel of it.

[Justice41]

Guys and Gals, Invest in a parallel rule or in the least a good sturdy T-Square and some good triangles. Having lines that should be straight go all loopy is really distracting. Remember, once someone spots a glaring mistake they will focus on that and that only like Donald Trump before he fires someone. If you have to explain the mistake you should have fixed it before hand.

[Justice41]

I totally Overcooked this (and that's one of the reasons I'm not a pro!) exaggerated some bits mostly for perspective practice but that ended up having a knock on effect of inconstant scaling. and this was the third attempt (after binning the fist 2 efforts) but the advice in this thread has been pretty impressive so I thought I would show my mess anyway.

I need to write 'simple is elegant' on a piece of paper and stick it on my board every time i start to draw.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3439/3368881680_9e31371b45_o.jpg
When you do heavy spot blacks like the overhangs shadow, make sure you also have a balancing spot black on the other side. You might have tossed down a shadow of a building onto the street in the lower right corner. Just something to balance the drawing out so it doesn't seem lopsided.

[raya]

Guys and Gals, Invest in a parallel rule or in the least a good sturdy T-Square and some good triangles. Having lines that should be straight go all loopy is really distracting. Remember, once someone spots a glaring mistake they will focus on that and that only like Donald Trump before he fires someone. If you have to explain the mistake you should have fixed it before hand.

Yes, as a flatter I get many pages where the artist didn't use a ruler, and it makes it take longer! Please, use a ruler, or guides if you use a tablet. That's what they are there for. You would have to use a ruler if you took these classes at most art colleges (they did at my college). ;)

I probably won't have time for this project until after 2 weeks, hopefully I can still post then though.

[Starfire]

Man, this turned out to be more difficult than I imagined under the gun. Guys, I am working on it. I didn't focus on my sketches as much and went too fast. Now I have to go back and fix a number of parts and add elements that are missing (snow, tree, and whatnot). Also, the truck is rushed and off perspective. Also not completed is the lower area of the building. The upper area I have to rework with the 2nd perspective on the windows (I bypassed it. sheesh. ) I have a lot of work to do.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2u6k847.jpg


http://i39.tinypic.com/1zm06me.jpg


Mr. Caynord, your examples are extremely helpful. I'm going back to revise this thing, but let me continue on so that I can try to keep up with you guys. It's quite a challenge. I'm revising and adding as I go along.

Originally Posted by Justice41:
Guys and Gals, Invest in a parallel rule or in the least a good sturdy T-Square and some good triangles. Having lines that should be straight go all loopy is really distracting. Remember, once someone spots a glaring mistake they will focus on that and that only like Donald Trump before he fires someone. If you have to explain the mistake you should have fixed it before hand.

Your remarks are echoing in my head right now, Justice. Sheesh. :slap:

****

[Justice41]

Man, this turned out to be more difficult than I imagined under the gun. Guys, I am working on it. I didn't focus on my sketches as much and went too fast. Now I have to go back and fix a number of parts and add elements that are missing (snow, tree, and whatnot). Also, the truck is rushed and off perspective. Also, the lower area of the building is not completed. The upper area I have to rework with the 2nd perspective on the windows (I bypassed it. sheesh. ) I have a lot of work to do.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2u6k847.jpg


http://i39.tinypic.com/1zm06me.jpg


Mr. Caynord, your examples are extremely helpful. I'm going back to revise this thing, but let me continue on so that I can try to keep up with you guys. It's quite a challenge. I'm revising and adding as I go along.

Originally Posted by Justice41:
Guys and Gals, Invest in a parallel rule or in the least a good sturdy T-Square and some good triangles. Having lines that should be straight go all loopy is really distracting. Remember, once someone spots a glaring mistake they will focus on that and that only like Donald Trump before he fires someone. If you have to explain the mistake you should have fixed it before hand.

Your remarks are echoing in my head right now, Justice. Sheesh. :slap:

****
With such extreme shadows from the people where is the one cast by the building? But I see you have shadows cast on the walls from the window framings yet you have shadows on the ground going away from the figures. You need to get rid of the shadows on the walls or make the shadows on the ground going back and to the right instead of to the front going to the right. That side of the building should be in shade.
Oh and if you have a way of drawing that is purposely messy and loopy don't worry about drawing straight consistent lines, if that's your thing.

[Starfire]

Originally, that side of the building was a darker color. While working I became unaware of how much it has drifted into a more lighter color than I originally started with. You're right too that the extreme shadows really shouldn't be there. Thank you, Justice41

[Justice41]

Take a look at the shadow under the awning. Where is the shadow originating from? The shadow should start where the edge of the awning ends. This is why you do sketches, to figure out all this stuff before committing to inks or colors.

[Random Chance]

When you do heavy spot blacks like the overhangs shadow, make sure you also have a balancing spot black on the other side. You might have tossed down a shadow of a building onto the street in the lower right corner. Just something to balance the drawing out so it doesn't seem lopsided.

that's an interesting suggestion, i'm going to tinker with this a bit and i may try and add a shadow from across the street. I like that idea. it would help to bring the street in and stop it looking like an infinite flat plane in front of the scene.

[Justice41]

that's an interesting suggestion, i'm going to tinker with this a bit and i may try and add a shadow from across the street. I like that idea. it would help to bring the street in and stop it looking like an infinite flat plane in front of the scene.
You have a lot of blacks in your drawing but they all run horizontal making the drawing flat. If you squint your eyes you'll see just a grey line across the paper. Maybe instead of doing the far buildings in black you could have made the sky black and the building white with black windowing. This would break up the straight black line. A shadow on the ground in the right corner would help as well.

[jedipencil]

Oh my..... What an amazing new section - just saw this now! Carynord and Justice... this is so generous of you guys to put time into this for everyone! I want to participate soon.

I've a few questions....is that ok?

These are amazing drawings that everyone is doing, and as Carynord mentioned in the beginning, "make your work mindblowing". (I'm working on an interior bar scene illustration, and my drawing is far from any of these.... :( ) Would detail of this nature be best for every panel in a comic or would that be overkill or too much to look at?

[Justice41]

Oh my..... What an amazing new section - just saw this now! Carynord and Justice... this is so generous of you guys to put time into this for everyone! I want to participate soon.

I've a few questions....is that ok?

These are amazing drawings that everyone is doing, and as Carynord mentioned in the beginning, "make your work mindblowing". (I'm working on an interior bar scene illustration, and my drawing is far from any of these.... :( ) Would detail of this nature be best for every panel in a comic or would that be overkill or too much to look at?
Size and detail denotes importance, so if it's heavily detailed all the time it would seem to the reader it has a lot of importance. A one time heavy detailed large panel should get across the point of the bars importance without constantly emphasizing it panel after panel.

[Justice41]

This little exercise has really shown folks how much they know and how little they thought they knew.

[carynord]

Oh my..... What an amazing new section - just saw this now! Carynord and Justice... this is so generous of you guys to put time into this for everyone! I want to participate soon.

I've a few questions....is that ok?

These are amazing drawings that everyone is doing, and as Carynord mentioned in the beginning, "make your work mindblowing". (I'm working on an interior bar scene illustration, and my drawing is far from any of these.... :( ) Would detail of this nature be best for every panel in a comic or would that be overkill or too much to look at?

I think we have to understand what detail is first of all. When I'm talking about details, I'm not talking about a thousand McFarlenesque lines that don't mean anything. When I say detail, I'm talking about architectural details. These types of details will make your scene look convincing instead of generic. The more reference you use, the more rich your world is.
So, to answer your question about a bar scene, no, I don't think you can overdo it with details. You can over-render it (which people confuse with detail) but it's not the same thing.
That said, not every panel needs a full background either. It's all about balance and composition. Sometimes if your page is too busy it's nice to give the reader a break with a white or black background. It's all balance. Start thinking of your whole page as one piece instead of 4 or 5 separate pieces.

[JamieRoberts]

Damn. Still haven't finished this. Verily, I doth suck.

[Gav Heryng]

Ha! Did you know that by using that line of central projection on the triangular window protrusion, the coverging horizontal line lines of said protrusion automatically creates the 2nd and 3rd vanishing points. I think I might have just figured out what I was getting stuck on with 2 point perspective. Quality.

Gav

[jedipencil]

I think we have to understand what detail is first of all. When I'm talking about details, I'm not talking about a thousand McFarlenesque lines that don't mean anything. When I say detail, I'm talking about architectural details. These types of details will make your scene look convincing instead of generic. The more reference you use, the more rich your world is.
So, to answer your question about a bar scene, no, I don't think you can overdo it with details. You can over-render it (which people confuse with detail) but it's not the same thing.
That said, not every panel needs a full background either. It's all about balance and composition. Sometimes if your page is too busy it's nice to give the reader a break with a white or black background. It's all balance. Start thinking of your whole page as one piece instead of 4 or 5 separate pieces.

Thank you! That was very clear.... :) And the part in bold - I didn't think of it that way. Thank you.

[Justice41]

Ha! Did you know that by using that line of central projection on the triangular window protrusion, the coverging horizontal line lines of said protrusion automatically creates the 2nd and 3rd vanishing points. I think I might have just figured out what I was getting stuck on with 2 point perspective. Quality.

Gav
Exxacarry!!.

[Jasongwinn28]

First, I'd like to say "Thank you" to Cary for taking the time to do this! I find it amazing that you can do what you do and still find time to do "charity work" (the soup kitchen for starving artists!) which in turn makes me realize how lazy I've been when it comes to my art.
Second, great job to all who've posted! I promise you all that when I get a scanner, I'll practice right along with you.
Lastly, Cary, thanks for not pulling your punches with the crits. No one ever got better by their friends and family praising their work. We all need critiques regardless if we're ready to hear them or not :laugh: I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to not wanting to hear critiques :whistlin:

Take care! And by the way, you have a new student!!!! :nyah:

[Justice41]

First, I'd like to say "Thank you" to Cary for taking the time to do this! I find it amazing that you can do what you do and still find time to do "charity work" (the soup kitchen for starving artists!) which in turn makes me realize how lazy I've been when it comes to my art.
Second, great job to all who've posted! I promise you all that when I get a scanner, I'll practice right along with you.
Lastly, Cary, thanks for not pulling your punches with the crits. No one ever got better by their friends and family praising their work. We all need critiques regardless if we're ready to hear them or not :laugh: I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to not wanting to hear critiques :whistlin:

Take care! And by the way, you have a new student!!!! :nyah:
You have a digital camera? If so use it and post them pics. Cary uses a digital camera. He doesn't have a Scanner, at least not always. No excuses folks let's see those exercises.

[Starfire]

Take a look at the shadow under the awning. Where is the shadow originating from? The shadow should start where the edge of the awning ends. This is why you do sketches, to figure out all this stuff before committing to inks or colors.

You're right, and I agree with you 110%. Even though it's a failure of the assignment, I posted this image because I still wanted to add to this thread and also learn. It was risky, and it's an 'ouch', but it's an 'ouch' that's worth it.
Thank you!

I'm stuck at work right now and also have very limited time online, so I'll have to come back later.

[Justice41]

You're right, and I agree with you 110%. Even though it's a failure of the assignment, I posted this image because I still wanted to add to this thread and also learn. It was risky, and it's an 'ouch', but it's an 'ouch' that's worth it.
Thank you!

I'm stuck at work right now and also have very limited time online, so I'll have to come back later.
Sorry if I seemed harsh. Online speaking can be a little wonky. It's observation and memory training. Heck, i didn't know until I knew.
See funny stuff like that can distract from your main goal which is to tell a seamless flowing story and Unfortunately the human eye/mind recognizes stuff that's not right and cannot let it go. this is one of the reasons people tend to be more negative than positive.

[raya]

Guys, I've gone to art school and seen teachers be much more critical then Justice or Cary, so they were being much nicer. I also know other artists, who I still email, who are much more frank then they are. Just like other pros here have said, you need to have thick skin if you want to make it in the business. ;)

[ChrisMcJunkin]

I just wanted to throw out my thanks to Cary for the crit. I'll work on my window-work and try to polish that up. And yeah, I noticed the thing as well with the characters on the right being larger than the character on the left the morning I posted the pic.

I'll try and see if I can revisit the drawing over the next few days and spruce it up.

I'm eager to see what the next assignment is as well.

[Justice41]

The next assignment has already been posted.

[bek76]

oh man how did i miss this , i just discovered this topic cary and i must say thank you for this, it'ss pretty cool and encouraging, i may be late but count me in, so what is the new assignment guys?

[Justice41]

Still have to do the first and second ones.

[Skothu23]

Hello every one,

I just found this site last weekend, and I've really liked what I've been seeing so far. As far as artists, opinions and a generally well built community, I wish i would have found this a year ago!

Anyway, i Finally got my account activated and just wanted you to know i just start this "homework" assignment a couple of days ago, and it's going well.

Hopefully I'll have it done by this weekend. I look forward to your critiques!

[bek76]

well, i'm just asking, about the deadline you set up, is there still time to do the two earlier assignments i mean to get critics?

[Ransak]

I've not been around for awhile, and I am thrilled to see this section taking shape! Clearly this will be an amazing resource...I can't stay and go through it all, but I'll be back. Once again, kudos to CN...nice going!

[Justice41]

What's going on here? All those people chiming in saying they want to do these exercises yet very few have followed through.

[Skothu23]

Haha, yeah i know, i got sidetracked with some other stuff and kind of forgot about this for a couple of days. i will work on it when i have time though.

[zcotty]

I too was more than excited. I had nothing much on my plate. Had a nice buffer going so no worries there, but then something happened....

I think my neighbor's dog ate my buffer! :mad:

[colt45]

I have mine started, but haven't been able to touch it for awhile, I still intend to do it and post it. You were right though Justice, I definitely fall into the category of people who realized how little they actually knew about perspective drawing. I'm ashamed to admit that I'd never even heard of the book that you and Cary mentioned in earlier posts. I did manage to get a copy of it, along with a few other perspective books and have started to try and wrap my mind around the concept of having more than a 3-point perspective.

[carynord]

well, i'm just asking, about the deadline you set up, is there still time to do the two earlier assignments i mean to get critics?

Yeah, this is pretty informal. I've been busy myself. I wasn't sure of how many people would try this so I didn't want to be swamped but it looks like not many are going to post, so I can guarantee you a crit!

Post away, man!

[Kody]

These are great!

[Ransak]

What's going on here? All those people chiming in saying they want to do these exercises yet very few have followed through.

Guilty as charged, chum. My only defense is my bitter struggle with poverty and the fearsome rent and food monster. Rest assured though it's on my short list. I've missed DW something fierce...I'm gonna chew up that perspective stuff damn quick though...I've been dying for some real training there...

[raya]

What's going on here? All those people chiming in saying they want to do these exercises yet very few have followed through.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm actually coloring something now and waiting for my Tablet PC to arrive before I do any drawing exercises. Can't wait, 2 more days to go!

[bek76]

Yeah, this is pretty informal. I've been busy myself. I wasn't sure of how many people would try this so I didn't want to be swamped but it looks like not many are going to post, so I can guarantee you a crit!

Post away, man!

okay cary i'm right on it, and thanks for this :thumbs: , i know it'd hard to keep on with this topic since you'r busy, so may ask you what are your projects now, i like your work and i'd like to see more...

[Skothu23]

Ok here is mine (finally). Wanted to get crits before i began finishing details

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k143/hedup_elite/Street-Scene-Web.jpg

Thanks for being patient! :D

[Justice41]

Ok here is mine (finally). Wanted to get crits before i began finishing details

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k143/hedup_elite/Street-Scene-Web.jpg

Thanks for being patient! :D
Went a bit high on the Horizon line. Here's a few things to keep in mind. see how you drew the car. look how long it is. Look at the sidewalk next to it and the sidewalk in front of the store. Notice the size. assume the squares of the sidewalk are all the same. The two squares of the sidewalk next to the car would then tell you that that car is at least twenty or more feet long. You can use cues like that to keep proportions and scales proportionate and to scale.
Gotta get some reference for those little things like what a real Fire Hydrant looks like or a street lamp.

[bek76]

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5537/cityjpgcopycopy.jpg

ok, this is not the final image, it is still on work,i 'm posting it to get crit, advice in order to correct things, i musy confess it was hard because first i really reall get bored doing backgrounds and second i always get messy and lost in all those lateral , paralel, diogonal lines, i didnt stick to the real picture , at least i did but i can't say i like it, something bothering me i dont know what...

[carynord]

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5537/cityjpgcopycopy.jpg

ok, this is not the final image, it is still on work,i 'm posting it to get crit, advice in order to correct things, i musy confess it was hard because first i really reall get bored doing backgrounds and second i always get messy and lost in all those lateral , paralel, diogonal lines, i didnt stick to the real picture , at least i did but i can't say i like it, something bothering me i dont know what...


Looks pretty good except for that diagonal window sticking out over the store front. It's off center. You have to treat it like a box first, find the middle of that box with a diagonal X and then find your perspective points. This gave a lot of people trouble, I'll try to do up a quick example.

[bek76]

you'r right cary, that window is a hell to fix, i'll try use you tip and see what it will look like

[Justice41]

you'r right cary, that window is a hell to fix, i'll try use you tip and see what it will look like
Here's, I think, the best way to approach something like this. Just think of that window and any window like it as a box that is sideways and inside another box and all you are seeing is the corner of that embedded box. So you treat the box exactly the way you would any other box in your drawing and apply proper vanishing points to the horizon line.

[Random Chance]

After a fairly long period of artistic block I finally managed to simplify some referenced background buildings, I found it really hard for a wile for some reason. the windows have been tweaked to be more then just cartoon blobs.

any how here is my improved effort.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3562/3469235982_f8991a4796_o.jpg

[Justice41]

I'm thoroughly disappointed with the turn out for all these lessons. Really sad.

[ArmstrongArts]

I didn't get a chance to see this before it started, but I thank you all for doing it I learned a lot just by looking at the critiques you gave the others.

[Justice41]

Post the results of those learned lessons.

[Biofungus]

I'm going to go back and do the head lesson, but since I work on a clipboard, I don't feel I can adequately do this lesson (too much would have to be freehand due to space constraints, and if I'm going to do it, I'm not going to half-ass it).

I did have a neat idea for this particular lesson, I might do it in microscale...

[Justice41]

Nothing wrong with freehand as long as the foundations are sound.

[Biofungus]

Problem is, you wouldn't be able to tell if the problem was a 'foundational issue' or a 'freehand issue' if I did. Like I said though, I might microscale it (like do it 2x3 inches or something, with a .03 pencil), just so I can measure it out right.

[Justice41]

Too bad this Section went dark. I think I became overbearing.

[Eric Rabbitsmasher]

Yep, it's all your fault.

'Course it may be that Cary has bills to pay too.

I thought about trying this, but my drawing board was buried at the time. I've done some drafting, but not a whole lot of Architectural rendering, by the time I got into that it was all AutoCad.

I've toyed with the idea of doing some grids, just too lazy so far, the whole cone of vision thing tends to mess me up, and it's starting to hold me back, I'm brushing up with the help of Cheesman-Meyer's Vanishing Point.

Handprint has a very technical introduction to perspective that could get everybody on the same page if there were somebody knew something about it with some spare time, hint, hint.

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/tech10.html

[Justice41]

I went back and renamed some files that I had renamed so they show up again in this thread.

[Justice41]

Too bad no one comes to these pages and at least check out the lessons

[Justice41]

yup too bad

[Biofungus]

They don't need to post to have checked out the lessons.

[Justice41]

Yeah but if no one posts then newer folks won't see this at all and completely miss out