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View Full Version : How GOOD was Rogues' Revenge!


Saul Haber
10-22-2008, 11:00 PM
Has anybody read Rogues's Revenge? That book was amazing. Probably the best comic I've read since last year's Sinestro Corps War. And considering that it was only three issues, I'd say it was better. This comic book did something that most comics have trouble accomplishing: Stuff happened. Lots of stuff happened. Real stuff that actually affected the characters. I mean, how many issues of Secret Invasion have come out and... NOTHING'S happened! It's ridiculous! It's the same situation we were in 6 months ago. Johns set out to do something in this comic and he did it. In three issues. It seems like there are few others writing comics today who can do the same.

PS- It seems like Marvel's been having some great ideas these past few years (Civil War, World War Hulk, Secret Invasion) but with subpar execution. If they would just tell the stories twice as fast, without completely sucking out the momentum and sense of timing, they would have some great books! On the other hand DC hasn't really done much worth reading since 52 but at least they tell a story every once in a while that doesn't take 8 months and 30 issues to tell.

Ian Ascher
10-23-2008, 06:47 PM
It was good but I wouldn't call it amazing.

If you didn't read John's run on the Flash and don't plan to try his Flash Reborn series then the only other reason to pick this book up is because it ties into Final Crisis. If you're not reading Final Crisis then it just won't appeal to you.

Stuff does happen, but again, if you didn't read the Flash previously and don't pick up Final Crisis, the "wow" moments just don't hit you like they should.

As for thinking more happens in this book than in Secret Invasion. I agree to a point.

You have to take each one and weigh it on it's own merits. I think Secret Invasion is supposed to take place in the span of a few days. Rogue's Revenge takes place in the span of a night. Secret Invasion is a big event. Rogue's Revenge is a small part of not one, but two larger stories.

Still... it was a good read andif you haven't read Flash or Final Crisis, it's a good gateway into those books.

Moonrider
10-23-2008, 09:37 PM
It's not bad. Could have used a better artist though.

PIMPZILLA
10-23-2008, 10:52 PM
I thought it was a great book. One of Johns' best.

NickGuy
10-23-2008, 10:53 PM
what was wrong with world war hulk?

ronin7
10-24-2008, 12:56 AM
Has anybody read Rogues's Revenge? That book was amazing. Probably the best comic I've read since last year's Sinestro Corps War. And considering that it was only three issues, I'd say it was better. This comic book did something that most comics have trouble accomplishing: Stuff happened. Lots of stuff happened. Real stuff that actually affected the characters. I mean, how many issues of Secret Invasion have come out and... NOTHING'S happened! It's ridiculous! It's the same situation we were in 6 months ago. Johns set out to do something in this comic and he did it. In three issues. It seems like there are few others writing comics today who can do the same.

PS- It seems like Marvel's been having some great ideas these past few years (Civil War, World War Hulk, Secret Invasion) but with subpar execution. If they would just tell the stories twice as fast, without completely sucking out the momentum and sense of timing, they would have some great books! On the other hand DC hasn't really done much worth reading since 52 but at least they tell a story every once in a while that doesn't take 8 months and 30 issues to tell.

Well, it depends on your view. From your comments and I am merely going by your comments. It seems like you sped through those different stories, didn't pick up what they are about, immediately came onto the internet because you like Geoff Johns more than the guys at Marvel. Then started spouting on about how great Rogues Revenge is and how DC is better than Marvel.

That is how I see your comment. And some and I do mean some may see it that way as well. If you could elaborate on why you felt SI didn't grab you, but Rogues Revenge did. That would help us see your point better.

For example. Was it the fact that established character/characters died over Skrull imposters? (Which is a reason some label as why they didn't like SI)

Better art?

Some visceral connection to the story?

Because it was self contained?

I'm not trying to be a jerk to you. I just want to see if you could give us a clearer message of why Rogues Revenge is so good aside from "stuff happens".

Peace.

HaphazardJoy
10-24-2008, 06:44 AM
what wasN'T wrong with world war hulk?

Fixed.

I liked Rogues Revenge. I just don't like the timing of it in regards to Final Crisis. This Final Crisis stuff is all over the place, almost as scattered as Countdown. I get what's going on in the main book, but then half of these side books are pretty good on their own but make me wonder what they have to do with the main event. I see how Rogues Revenge works into the Libra and Flash threads of the overall theme, but then while these old-fashioned villains are having a hunkydory time taking vengeance on their would-be replacements, and SuperBoy Prime is trying to do whatever he's trying to do in the future, we have the core story of Darkseid taking over Earth, which seems so rushed and glossed over. You'd think the other books would compliment the main story a lot better, even though they're not bad on their own.

Saul Haber
10-25-2008, 09:12 PM
ronin7 - First off, I appreciate your courteous and measured response as that is sometime ignored on message boards.
I guess I take issue with the overall pace of storytelling in these Marvel events. It seems like they could all have been told in half the number of issues either because of the story just not moving anywhere or due to the overuse of splash pages, double splash pages, or just too few panels per page. For me, that just saps the momentum out of otherwise fun stories. My particular problem with Secret invasion is that not much has happened from the end of issue 1 until last issue. I don't even know how they stretched it out this much- it all takes place in the span of hours. The whole concept of SI was "Who do you trust?", which is a great idea, but they've hardly revealed anyone to be Skrulls. Spider-woman and Hank Pym (and Jarvis-oooh). That's it? They have a really fun concept and they should develop it to its potential instead of just having a typical superhero slugfest. Marooning the heroes in the savage land for 6 issues was a bad idea and so was bringing to the forefront many heroes that nobody even knows or cares about (the Initiative and Nick Fury's commandoes). It's just not delivering on its promises. Which is similar to how Civil War played out. Amazing concept. Great first issue. And then it went on to avoid resolving the conflict or giving the readers what they were promised and what the story was naturally developing towards. Instead Captain America gives up, the "rebel" Avengers are STILL the rebel avengers and Iron Man is still in charge. Nothing changed. They just keep milking these stories and wasting these ideas instead of just doing it right but selling half the books in the process.
And to answer NickGuy, World War Hulk was OK, but it also didn't live up to its potential because it was stretched out too long, lost momentum and focus, and also had a cop-out resolution. It didn't deliver on its promise. Hulk is pissed and he wants revenge. He got kicked off the planet and then his wife got killed. Now he's back. That's a good setup. But in the end, what happened? He didn't get revenge on anybody. There were a few nice fight scenes, but they all could have been half the length and they would have read much better that way. It was stretched out for commercial reasons and an otherwise simple and powerful concept lost all its momentum.
Rogue's Revenge delivered on it's promises. There was a setup and a conclusion and it all flowed well and left you satisfied. It didn't stretch on forever and then peter out.

And, for the record, I like Marvel's characters a lot, I just think they've (specifically Bendis) gone way overboard with the decompressed storytelling to the point where it's hurting the story flow (and my wallet). Tell long stories, if you must, but at least have stuff happen and don't just spin your wheels.

Eugene Selassie
10-26-2008, 11:10 AM
ronin7 - First off, I appreciate your courteous and measured response as that is sometime ignored on message boards.
I guess I take issue with the overall pace of storytelling in these Marvel events. It seems like they could all have been told in half the number of issues either because of the story just not moving anywhere or due to the overuse of splash pages, double splash pages, or just too few panels per page. For me, that just saps the momentum out of otherwise fun stories. My particular problem with Secret invasion is that not much has happened from the end of issue 1 until last issue. I don't even know how they stretched it out this much- it all takes place in the span of hours. The whole concept of SI was "Who do you trust?", which is a great idea, but they've hardly revealed anyone to be Skrulls. Spider-woman and Hank Pym (and Jarvis-oooh). That's it? They have a really fun concept and they should develop it to its potential instead of just having a typical superhero slugfest. Marooning the heroes in the savage land for 6 issues was a bad idea and so was bringing to the forefront many heroes that nobody even knows or cares about (the Initiative and Nick Fury's commandoes). It's just not delivering on its promises. Which is similar to how Civil War played out. Amazing concept. Great first issue. And then it went on to avoid resolving the conflict or giving the readers what they were promised and what the story was naturally developing towards. Instead Captain America gives up, the "rebel" Avengers are STILL the rebel avengers and Iron Man is still in charge. Nothing changed. They just keep milking these stories and wasting these ideas instead of just doing it right but selling half the books in the process.
And to answer NickGuy, World War Hulk was OK, but it also didn't live up to its potential because it was stretched out too long, lost momentum and focus, and also had a cop-out resolution. It didn't deliver on its promise. Hulk is pissed and he wants revenge. He got kicked off the planet and then his wife got killed. Now he's back. That's a good setup. But in the end, what happened? He didn't get revenge on anybody. There were a few nice fight scenes, but they all could have been half the length and they would have read much better that way. It was stretched out for commercial reasons and an otherwise simple and powerful concept lost all its momentum.
Rogue's Revenge delivered on it's promises. There was a setup and a conclusion and it all flowed well and left you satisfied. It didn't stretch on forever and then peter out.

And, for the record, I like Marvel's characters a lot, I just think they've (specifically Bendis) gone way overboard with the decompressed storytelling to the point where it's hurting the story flow (and my wallet). Tell long stories, if you must, but at least have stuff happen and don't just spin your wheels.

Most accurate post ever.

ronin7
10-26-2008, 11:54 AM
The thing about Marvel and particularly DC. Is they are always going to be about the bottom dollar. And Bendis can't just reveal all of those other writers who have the dibs on these characters as Skrulls. It would make them have animosity toward him. It's one of those situations were you have to work with what you have.

Saying that I understand how you feel. Since you expected something more. But one thing I have learned is that the advertising of these comic events, etc. are often misleading. And they have to be to preserve the scope of the plots involved.


ronin7 - First off, I appreciate your courteous and measured response as that is sometime ignored on message boards.
I guess I take issue with the overall pace of storytelling in these Marvel events. It seems like they could all have been told in half the number of issues either because of the story just not moving anywhere or due to the overuse of splash pages, double splash pages, or just too few panels per page. For me, that just saps the momentum out of otherwise fun stories. My particular problem with Secret invasion is that not much has happened from the end of issue 1 until last issue. I don't even know how they stretched it out this much- it all takes place in the span of hours. The whole concept of SI was "Who do you trust?", which is a great idea, but they've hardly revealed anyone to be Skrulls. Spider-woman and Hank Pym (and Jarvis-oooh). That's it? They have a really fun concept and they should develop it to its potential instead of just having a typical superhero slugfest. Marooning the heroes in the savage land for 6 issues was a bad idea and so was bringing to the forefront many heroes that nobody even knows or cares about (the Initiative and Nick Fury's commandoes). It's just not delivering on its promises. Which is similar to how Civil War played out. Amazing concept. Great first issue. And then it went on to avoid resolving the conflict or giving the readers what they were promised and what the story was naturally developing towards. Instead Captain America gives up, the "rebel" Avengers are STILL the rebel avengers and Iron Man is still in charge. Nothing changed. They just keep milking these stories and wasting these ideas instead of just doing it right but selling half the books in the process.
And to answer NickGuy, World War Hulk was OK, but it also didn't live up to its potential because it was stretched out too long, lost momentum and focus, and also had a cop-out resolution. It didn't deliver on its promise. Hulk is pissed and he wants revenge. He got kicked off the planet and then his wife got killed. Now he's back. That's a good setup. But in the end, what happened? He didn't get revenge on anybody. There were a few nice fight scenes, but they all could have been half the length and they would have read much better that way. It was stretched out for commercial reasons and an otherwise simple and powerful concept lost all its momentum.
Rogue's Revenge delivered on it's promises. There was a setup and a conclusion and it all flowed well and left you satisfied. It didn't stretch on forever and then peter out.

And, for the record, I like Marvel's characters a lot, I just think they've (specifically Bendis) gone way overboard with the decompressed storytelling to the point where it's hurting the story flow (and my wallet). Tell long stories, if you must, but at least have stuff happen and don't just spin your wheels.

NickGuy
10-26-2008, 12:39 PM
And to answer NickGuy, World War Hulk was OK, but it also didn't live up to its potential because it was stretched out too long, lost momentum and focus, and also had a cop-out resolution. It didn't deliver on its promise. Hulk is pissed and he wants revenge. He got kicked off the planet and then his wife got killed. Now he's back. That's a good setup. But in the end, what happened? He didn't get revenge on anybody. There were a few nice fight scenes, but they all could have been half the length and they would have read much better that way. It was stretched out for commercial reasons and an otherwise simple and powerful concept lost all its momentum.


well maybe im retarded, or easily satisfied (or a little of both) but i really had no problem with WWH...He got revenge. How can you say he didnt? He smashed the crap out of everyone, made them almost kill each other...the fight with the sentry had to be some of the best JRJr work ive seen in a long time.

Now, I cant comment on the drawn-out aspect of it because where i was in my life at that time, I couldnt afford to be at the comic book store every week...which was why it was such a pleasant surprise to go in in late january and still be able to pick up the last issue.

The complaints Ive heard about WWH largely, IMO, been very nit picky..."the ending sucked blahblahblah"...well what did you guys really expect? for hulk to really get away with smashing manhattan? cmon he wasnt really going to WIN. how would you have ended it?

Eugene Selassie
10-26-2008, 01:33 PM
Well I wouldn't have used WORLD WAR in the title if no other nations got involved.

That was misleading right there.

I was hoping some nations actually allied with Hulk and the Warbound...or gave them sanctuary.

Saul Haber
10-26-2008, 01:36 PM
Well, I guess if you read it all in one shot, NickGuy, like in a trade, it would be alright. You'd get all the action and story in one sitting. But if you read it issue by issue, you're left feeling like "Wait- Hulk is still fighting the same dudes in the same setting and there has been almost zero plot development and now I have to wait another month for more of the same??" It leaves you wanting more, but not in a good way.

Moonrider
10-27-2008, 08:48 AM
Re-reading Rogues Revenge, I think there's too much happening in there. I mean, SPOILERS AHEAD, they killed Inertia and Weather Wizard's baby, revert Zoom into crippled Hunter Zolomon, give Captain Cold closure by killing his dad, bring in a new Trickster, and a bunch of other stuff all in three issues. Though the death of Martian Manhunter is by far the most unremarkable character death in comics ever, the pacing for killing a high profile villain like Inertia seems a bit too rushed. He's the kind of character that got one too many ending. Being stuck in the Flash Museum is punishment enough, but they just had to undo that and put him in a Kid Flash costume and in a Reverse Flash costume and kill him all in one issue. Johns even forgot to explain the absence of a Black Flash nearby when he's killed. This story seems more like Geoff Johns' Revenge than Rogues Revenge, considering he killed a lot of people just to prove that The Rogues' are badass, The Piper post-Countdown is too soft and Inertia suck.

WSSmith
11-14-2008, 12:52 PM
Man I loved Rogues Revenge, think it fixed alot of problems that have occured with Flash since Geoff left!

Marvel seems to be able to generate wonderful uses for ideas, places, and niches in there universe. Then seem to tie them together in a more exciting and interconnected way! Example" Annihalation led to 4 cool comics and NOVA, the sequel led to 4 cool comics and Guardians of the Galaxy, Nova has used DarkHawk, Project Pegasus and Wendell Vaughn, while Guardians uses alot of characters and settings!

DC kind of forgets about things at times and then the audiences have forgotten them! Hardcore Station a great setting never hardly used, No real fallout from the 52 minis, etc. etc. seems they don't have their pulse on their own readers!