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View Full Version : All Star Batman recalled for "printing error"


pi0trov
09-09-2008, 10:54 PM
Rich Johnston's Blurb on the subject (Caution: includes naughty language). (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17985)

I find it hilarious/amazing that they felt the need to print the offending words and then try to cover them up, instead of just printing the black bars and let readers' brains fill in the blanks.... :huh:

Newt
09-10-2008, 12:51 AM
I just don't get why they would do that in the first place. Put black bars over words? That makes no sense. Use the word or don't, but don't cover it up; I can't read a black bar. I guess it's supposed to be analogous to the TV 'bleep', which is equally ridiculous.

In the old days, if someone wanted to use salty language without incurring the wrath of the tender-eared, they would just make up some nasty-sounding words- a healthy process that involves creative problem-solving and gives kids some cool new imprecations. What ever happened to that?

Paul Sanderson
09-10-2008, 01:05 AM
The magic is gone, what do you expect?

PIMPZILLA
09-10-2008, 01:07 AM
The Goddamn Batman shouldn't have to conform to your goddamn standards, because he's the GODDAMN BATMAN!




GODDAMN!

Troy Wall
09-10-2008, 01:42 AM
Ha! This is great. Here's what the fuss is about for those too lazy to go to LITG:

Hey-- you little ****--

FUCK me that little **** stole my board!

FUCK you twice, DICKWAD, you let a FUCKing little piece of jailbait

ASS steal your wheels...

...little jailbait ****'s making us look bad... we cut her come on...

...sweet piece in sweet slices... tasty sliced booty the little ****...

And these ASSHOLES make a devil's fortune of it

Text every friend you've got, SHITheads--

Sell your poison somewhere else. This arcade belongs to the

FUCKing Batgirl.

Troy Wall
09-10-2008, 01:43 AM
What the hell? We can't say **** on this board? :laugh: Even our boards think it's too much.

Imboden
09-10-2008, 02:24 AM
Just use that old taboo name:

CLINT

Looks close enough.

The thing is, I saw this last night at the store. You can see there are words under the black box, but you really have to hold it at the right angle and get the light just right to see it.

PIMPZILLA
09-10-2008, 02:32 AM
Like I said, He's the Goddamn Batman and shouldn't have to reform to your standards of "appropriate" and "recall"

Moonrider
09-10-2008, 06:04 AM
Just use that old taboo name:

CLINT

Looks close enough.

The thing is, I saw this last night at the store. You can see there are words under the black box, but you really have to hold it at the right angle and get the light just right to see it.

"Are you a Mexican or a Mexi****?" :laugh:

The DarkMind
09-10-2008, 08:36 AM
Ha! This is great. Here's what the fuss is about for those too lazy to go to LITG:

Hey-- you little ****--

FUCK me that little **** stole my board!

FUCK you twice, DICKWAD, you let a FUCKing little piece of jailbait

ASS steal your wheels...

...little jailbait ****'s making us look bad... we cut her come on...

...sweet piece in sweet slices... tasty sliced booty the little ****...

And these ASSHOLES make a devil's fortune of it

Text every friend you've got, SHITheads--

Sell your poison somewhere else. This arcade belongs to the

FUCKing Batgirl.

maybe it flows better in the comic? :huh:
that's just horrible... the writing i mean. i could care less about the language. it's on par with what you'd hear on the street anyway.

dwrite
09-10-2008, 11:11 AM
You know, I enjoyed the first trade collection of this series. I know a lot of people hated the individual comics, but when the trade collected them, I think you could see where this was going, and I found it a thought-provoking read.

But this? I don't know. Is Miller going purely for shock value here? I get the fact that the characters in this series are tougher than what we've come to expect even from the newer, grittier Batman. But it seems that Miller is beating this fact over our heads.

By the way, if anyone remembers the old Larry Sanders show -- starring Gary Shandling as a neurotic talk-show host -- there was an episode that had an extremely funny use of the dreaded "c"-word. Also, Curb Your Enthusiasm used it to great effect when Larry David, writing his aunt's obituary, sent in the copy with a typo that was printed in the newspaper -- spelling "aunt" with a "c" instead of an "a." That was funny, too. Miller's use of the word, though, just seems kind of juvenile.

Dan
http://indycomics.today.com

captainarian
09-10-2008, 02:25 PM
every time i see an issue of this comic a sheer of disapointment consumes me... what has the goddamn FRANK MILLER done to the goddamn batman?

it's just not batman!

JamieRoberts
09-10-2008, 03:38 PM
The bit that doesn't make sense to me is the final panel of those two pages.

'The crowd does the vest'?

I find that offensive, implying rape of a garment.

kdmelrose
09-10-2008, 03:43 PM
:laugh:

Maybe "The Vest" is a dance move, like the Cabbage Patch or the Electric Slide.

Project: J-ko
09-10-2008, 07:42 PM
I take this as proof that Frank Miller has completely lost his fucking mind. Or he needs to plead with DC to let him do a Batman Vertigo or something.

Would Vertigo be the equivalent of Marvel's MAX?

kdmelrose
09-10-2008, 07:50 PM
Would Vertigo be the equivalent of Marvel's MAX?

No. I think Marvel initially hoped it would be the equivalent of Vertigo, but instead of a "mature readers" imprint, it mostly became the place where writers are allowed to use dirty words.

PIMPZILLA
09-18-2008, 01:27 AM
Thugtastic! Just picked up the Frank Quietly 1:10 variant! Oh yeah. It was one of the recalled(!!!) copies!!!!!

One of the gems of my collection, Along with the All-Star Batman and Robin #6 Retailer Summit sketch cover and the Superman/Batman #1 Retailer summit variant.

Suck on that America!


p.s. Yes I am bragging. :nyah:

Project: J-ko
09-18-2008, 02:35 AM
No. I think Marvel initially hoped it would be the equivalent of Vertigo, but instead of a "mature readers" imprint, it mostly became the place where writers are allowed to use dirty words.

Ahh, ok. I started as more of a Marvel guy, so I wasn't sure which came first. Regardless though, Miller has proven that he doesn't need any stinking "mature readers" title to say fuck.

He's the Goddamn Batman writer

Dbrin
09-18-2008, 09:45 AM
In the old days, if someone wanted to use salty language without incurring the wrath of the tender-eared, they would just make up some nasty-sounding words- a healthy process that involves creative problem-solving and gives kids some cool new imprecations. What ever happened to that?

Unfortunately, nobody fracking does this anymore.

captainarian
09-18-2008, 04:19 PM
GREAT!the last thing we needed was barbara grabbing guys by the balls and talk like a whore... awesome. :mad:

Moonrider
09-18-2008, 06:02 PM
GREAT!the last thing we needed was barbara grabbing guys by the balls and talk like a whore... awesome. :mad:

I wouldn't mind that, so long as she doesn't squeeze too hard. ;)

Biofungus
09-18-2008, 07:39 PM
I wouldn't mind that, so long as she doesn't squeeze too hard. ;)
Wimp.

captainarian
09-19-2008, 03:46 AM
I wouldn't mind that, so long as she doesn't squeeze too hard. ;)

:yawn: GOOOD!
they are destroying her great reputation :cry: she's not like that.
(i wouldn't mind either) but not in a dc comic book. ah, sheesh. ok.

Biofungus
09-19-2008, 04:30 AM
You are aware that this is a new, lesbian batwoman, right? Not saying she's a man hater necessarily, but I think it's obviously less "sexual" her hitting guys below the belt (it's probably more practical, and frankly, about time one of the Bat-family started doing it :p )

Moonrider
09-19-2008, 04:37 AM
Not that I don't mind reading it, but I don't mind getting my balls squeezed by a Batgirl. :w00t:

captainarian
09-19-2008, 09:12 AM
it's not barbara?

OK... no problem then :D but she looks so much like gordon. batwoman has red hair... i mean red not orange. so ok, she could grab my ball at any time :w00t:

kdmelrose
09-19-2008, 10:29 AM
It's Batgirl, not Batwoman.

Aidy
09-19-2008, 10:58 AM
it's not barbara?

OK... no problem then :D but she looks so much like gordon. batwoman has red hair... i mean red not orange. so ok, she could grab my ball at any time :w00t:

You've only got one ball?

L Jamal
09-19-2008, 11:14 AM
You are aware that this is a new, lesbian batwoman, right?
It's Batgirl not Batwoman.
This is most likely Barbara Gordan, but nothing in All Star comics have any effect outside their current story. So if you don't like the characterization you can ignore them and the comics without any of that affecting your cherished comic stories.

captainarian
09-19-2008, 04:17 PM
but i was dying to see barbara in action again... and then this. CRAP!
MILLER MUST DIE.

kdmelrose
09-19-2008, 05:07 PM
:blink:

NickGuy
09-19-2008, 05:11 PM
hahaha i love how frank does whatever he wants. this is a great story and a great comic. lee's art looks great too, though im tired of the blur effect.

Biofungus
09-19-2008, 08:46 PM
It's Batgirl not Batwoman.
This is most likely Barbara Gordan, but nothing in All Star comics have any effect outside their current story. So if you don't like the characterization you can ignore them and the comics without any of that affecting your cherished comic stories.
I thought even in All Star, Barbara was still paralyzed?

kdmelrose
09-19-2008, 08:54 PM
Nope. The Batgirl in All-Star Batman and Robin is a 15-year-old Barbara Gordon.

captainarian
09-20-2008, 03:51 AM
i hope they get some one sane on this series... oh my god!!! if the heroes are like this... what... about... the...j..j.. THE JOKER! <BOOKHTSH> :blink:

Paul Sanderson
09-21-2008, 08:09 AM
Crappy series, right from the start, and it still is.

ronin7
09-21-2008, 06:21 PM
I disagree. I think it's goddamn hilarious.

NickGuy
09-21-2008, 06:23 PM
it is goddamn hilarious, and its the prequel to DKR! even better!

Moonrider
09-21-2008, 06:56 PM
I thought DKR was crap, but folks seem to like the grim & gritty. Though back in the days of Dirty Harry, it was entertaining. I never read All-Star Batman but I refuse to take the series seriously anyway.

NickGuy
09-21-2008, 06:57 PM
I never read All-Star Batman but I refuse to take the series seriously anyway.


:blink:

Moonrider
09-21-2008, 06:59 PM
:blink:

:blink: :blink:

NickGuy
09-21-2008, 07:13 PM
youve never read it, and youre not even willing to give it a shot? its great fun bordering on parody

captainarian
09-22-2008, 04:17 AM
youve never read it, and youre not even willing to give it a shot? its great fun bordering on parody

it doesn't need to be bought, just read a preview page and it's enough to annoy the crap out of you for the rest of your life.

Moonrider
09-22-2008, 06:04 AM
youve never read it, and youre not even willing to give it a shot? its great fun bordering on parody

Perhaps someday. It's just that I'm reading Batman RIP right now and I can only handle one Bat-craziness each month.

Aidy
09-22-2008, 09:28 AM
I hate Frank Miller.

Moonrider
09-22-2008, 09:45 AM
I hate Frank Miller.

Why, did he used to beat you up in college? Fucked your girlfriend? Kicked down your lawn gnome and roll over them with his truck? Order a ton of pizza to your house and you end up paying for it? Oh! Oh! He told everyone in your neighbourhood that you're gay, and gives your phone number to horny tranvestites??? I bet that sucks in more ways than one. :blink:

The DarkMind
09-22-2008, 10:50 AM
Why, did he used to beat you up in college? Fucked your girlfriend? Kicked down your lawn gnome and roll over them with his truck? Order a ton of pizza to your house and you end up paying for it? Oh! Oh! He told everyone in your neighbourhood that you're gay, and gives your phone number to horny tranvestites??? I bet that sucks in more ways than one. :blink:

that wasn't Frank... but i'll let him take the heat for it. :whistlin:

NickGuy
09-22-2008, 02:39 PM
i just reread issues 1-9, and i honestly dont see how people can have that much hate for this series. the book is hilarious, miller seems to be having lots of fun, batman fucks black canary, jim lee's art is awesome! the only complaint i have is the irregular shipping schedule, but thats not frank miller's fault. so where is this hate coming from?

Mcd91
09-22-2008, 03:02 PM
i just reread issues 1-9, and i honestly dont see how people can have that much hate for this series. the book is hilarious, miller seems to be having lots of fun, batman fucks black canary, jim lee's art is awesome! the only complaint i have is the irregular shipping schedule, but thats not frank miller's fault. so where is this hate coming from?

Finally someone who is of the same opinion as me. Isn't that how Batman is supposed to be depicted? A psychopath who exists outside law and order, following his own twisted sense of a working society.

NickGuy
09-22-2008, 03:15 PM
well, early batman was working outside of law and order. whether hes "supposed" to be portrayed that way is really not my thing to say, I just dont understand how people can say the comic "sucks" when there are so many interesting layers to it. Batman's near-reverence of robins ability, joker being portrayed by far the most deadliest i think we've seen him, black canary and batgirl's near worship of batman, jim gordon, etc etc! at first i thought this was going to be the sequel to year one, but now its all falling into place as the prequel to DKR and DK2

Mcd91
09-22-2008, 03:43 PM
Yep, you are correct my friend. This series is just a logical continuation of DK1 and DK2. Miller was always very open concerning his thoughts about Batman.

By the way. I think Miller's portrayal of Batman suits the original character. And it is much more interesting to read about a broken man, rather than about a perfect member of society, who just pops on some dark bat-costume and beats the shit out of criminals.

Rob Norton
09-22-2008, 06:05 PM
i just reread issues 1-9, and i honestly dont see how people can have that much hate for this series. the book is hilarious, miller seems to be having lots of fun, batman fucks black canary, jim lee's art is awesome! the only complaint i have is the irregular shipping schedule, but thats not frank miller's fault. so where is this hate coming from?


im loving this series as well. yeah..its a very different versions of the character. but so what. thats what i want. hes a comic book character and there are a million different way to write him. this is one i havent seen before and im enjoying the ride. pleeeenty of other "traditional" batman comics out there for people to read.

rob

Nick Kerklaan
09-22-2008, 11:58 PM
I've read a few issues, and while at first I was a bit confused, I eventually started to "get it". Miller's definitely taking the piss a bit with this one, and it makes for a fun -often hilarious - book that doesn't take itself too seriously. I definitely need to read the rest of the series so far one of these days.

Aidy
09-23-2008, 08:31 AM
Why, did he used to beat you up in college? Fucked your girlfriend? Kicked down your lawn gnome and roll over them with his truck? Order a ton of pizza to your house and you end up paying for it? Oh! Oh! He told everyone in your neighbourhood that you're gay, and gives your phone number to horny tranvestites??? I bet that sucks in more ways than one. :blink:

try harder not to be a dick.

My girlfriend wouldnt let that sad loser near her. I'd bet he has no idea what to do with a woman...his writing leads me to believe he's never met a real woman.

I dont like his writing, art or choices in fashion.

Moonrider
09-23-2008, 09:17 AM
try harder not to be a dick.

:laugh: you mean try a harder dick :slap:

Okay, okay, sorry. Still, not liking one's writing or art or fashion is no reason to start hating him personally unless he gave you grief, man.

Aidy
09-23-2008, 09:29 AM
:laugh: you mean try a harder dick :slap:

Okay, okay, sorry. Still, not liking one's writing or art or fashion is no reason to start hating him personally unless he gave you grief, man.


fair enough....ahem.

"Frank Miller has never given me grief. However I hate his writing and his art. I hate the fact that such a high profile writer does such slap dash work. And that people I would consider knowledgable and with sound opinions seem to become tools when the name of Miller comes up...he (and his mini-me's) ruined Batman in comics for at least a decade to the degree that Geoff Johns and the editorial team at D.C. had to make Batman "less of a Dick"

He and Rob Leifeld constantly put the art form back by 5 years (so I guess comics must be in the 1600's by now?)....one for not drawing feet and the other for being a sexist poo hole."

And dont even get me started on Batman/Spawn. :slap:

I will no doubt be eaten alive for these comments but hey-ho....tis opinion.

captainarian
09-23-2008, 11:15 AM
i'm with you aidy,
although i don't hate his art that much.
i hate frank miller for what he did to batman, he ruined the character...
batman a psychopath? i can live with that but not a big joke...
frank miller is taking it too far, not all comics are like sin city or should be written like that... just because a trend of his worked in a comic or two doesn't mean he has to use it in every god damn comic he writes.
i should be feared of batman, feel sympathy and compassion, feel grief and a dark sense not laughing and get annoyed by him...

batman laughs in a battle! :w00t: for the love of heavens WTF is that?

Aidy
09-23-2008, 11:30 AM
i'm with you aidy,
although i don't hate his art that much.
i hate frank miller for what he did to batman, he ruined the character...
batman a psychopath? i can live with that but not a big joke...
frank miller is taking it too far, not all comics are like sin city or should be written like that... just because a trend of his worked in a comic or two doesn't mean he has to use it in every god damn comic he writes.
i should be feared of batman, feel sympathy and compassion, feel grief and a dark sense not laughing and get annoyed by him...

batman laughs in a battle! :w00t: for the love of heavens WTF is that?


too true my good Captain...(and yes you're my second favourite canadian :D ) but i would say that Batman did start laughing during fights once Robin was introduced backin the day. But that was a looooong time ago.

NickGuy
09-23-2008, 12:03 PM
fair enough....ahem.

"Frank Miller has never given me grief. However I hate his writing and his art. I hate the fact that such a high profile writer does such slap dash work. And that people I would consider knowledgable and with sound opinions seem to become tools when the name of Miller comes up...he (and his mini-me's) ruined Batman in comics for at least a decade to the degree that Geoff Johns and the editorial team at D.C. had to make Batman "less of a Dick"

.


what is so wrong about a batman that loves his job, slaps slimeballs around, and laughs?

And if you look at the comics they were doing of batman before he came around...well, thank god its still not like that. there's a reason the 60's batman tv show sucked so much.

I find it weird that you call Miller's stuff "slap dash work". where do you get that from? His storylines (especially in DK2) are complex and interweave alot.

Now, I can see where you would hate his art. I personally think his new "cartoony" style that he uses is brilliant, but to each their own. I'm not going to argue about that, because he's not drawing this book only the variant covers.

But back to his writing. In the book EISNER/MILLER (which is a fantastic view into the views and motivations behind both artists), Miller voices his dislike of what he calls the "pamphlet format" of comic books today and says how he "needs more room" when telling a story. So with that in mind, I dont think ASBAR works issue by issue, especially when Miller puts in so many splash pages and double page splashes it might feel like you are "not getting your moneys worth" (although i wonder how anyone can feel that way with lee's gorgeous art on this series), but when you sit back and read the whole thing, you can sort of see how its shaping up. Now, that may not be your cup of tea, and i respect you if that is your opinion.

However, I disagree with you saying Miller is sexist. He has never shown any chauvanistic (sp?) tendencies in his writing...in fact, he seems to favor the opposite sex, with examples being Carrie Kelly in DKR and DK2, all the strong female roles he put in Sin City, Elektra, and more recently Black canary kicking ass in ASBAR and a hip, young Batgirl. so where is this sexism you say? I would love to see examples, it might change my mind on miller.

Aidy
09-23-2008, 12:42 PM
what is so wrong about a batman that loves his job, slaps slimeballs around, and laughs?

And if you look at the comics they were doing of batman before he came around...well, thank god its still not like that. there's a reason the 60's batman tv show sucked so much.

I find it weird that you call Miller's stuff "slap dash work". where do you get that from? His storylines (especially in DK2) are complex and interweave alot.

Now, I can see where you would hate his art. I personally think his new "cartoony" style that he uses is brilliant, but to each their own. I'm not going to argue about that, because he's not drawing this book only the variant covers.

But back to his writing. In the book EISNER/MILLER (which is a fantastic view into the views and motivations behind both artists), Miller voices his dislike of what he calls the "pamphlet format" of comic books today and says how he "needs more room" when telling a story. So with that in mind, I dont think ASBAR works issue by issue, especially when Miller puts in so many splash pages and double page splashes it might feel like you are "not getting your moneys worth" (although i wonder how anyone can feel that way with lee's gorgeous art on this series), but when you sit back and read the whole thing, you can sort of see how its shaping up. Now, that may not be your cup of tea, and i respect you if that is your opinion.

However, I disagree with you saying Miller is sexist. He has never shown any chauvanistic (sp?) tendencies in his writing...in fact, he seems to favor the opposite sex, with examples being Carrie Kelly in DKR and DK2, all the strong female roles he put in Sin City, Elektra, and more recently Black canary kicking ass in ASBAR and a hip, young Batgirl. so where is this sexism you say? I would love to see examples, it might change my mind on miller.

Oh well putting kids (girls mind...not women) in the robin suite outweighs the fact that in Miller's world ALL WOMEN ARE HOOKERS....yes even Wonder Woman, ...who in ASBAR is a Man hater until she gets some super-loving...calling a dude a Sperm Bank. And in DK2 asked Superman to throw her to the floor and "own her"...I find that characterisation a little hard too swallow (pun probably intended).....

In Miller's world if you aint getting dick or (heaven forbid) you dont want dick right there and then...you're a man hater/lesbian/wonderwoman. In ASBAR. Wonder woman seemed a little more sociable once Supes had given her the tongue of steel. I mean she'd just ranted her ass off about how shit men where/are...and had been telling everyone how wrong they where about Batman and how he should be hunted down..until she got patted on the head by Superman, and then she kinda mellowed a bit. "All she needed was a good dicking".

Here's a plan...wait for your girl to come home pissed off about work, tell her she's wrong and tell her to "shut up" then grab her and kiss her...see how she re-acts. If you really want to add a little spice throw her to the floor and tell her you're gonna "own her"...it make work in porn...but in the real world she's gonna make your balls hurt.

Hell maybe I'm wrong ...maybe my girl has me on too tight a leash...maybe I think women deserve a little more respect then Miller gives them credit. Maybe his way of thinking is totally acceptable...but to me that kinda sexist bullshit went out a long time ago.

NickGuy
09-23-2008, 01:03 PM
Oh well putting kids (girls mind...not women) in the robin suite outweighs the fact that in Miller's world ALL WOMEN ARE HOOKERS....yes even Wonder Woman, ...who in ASBAR is a Man hater until she gets some super-loving...calling a dude a Sperm Bank. And in DK2 asked Superman to throw her to the floor and "own her"...I find that characterisation a little hard too swallow (pun probably intended).....

In Miller's world if you aint getting dick or (heaven forbid) you dont want dick right there and then...you're a man hater/lesbian/wonderwoman. In ASBAR. Wonder woman seemed a little more sociable once Supes had given her the tongue of steel. I mean she'd just ranted her ass off about how shit men where/are...and had been telling everyone how wrong they where about Batman and how he should be hunted down..until she got patted on the head by Superman, and then she kinda mellowed a bit. "All she needed was a good dicking".

Here's a plan...wait for your girl to come home pissed off about work, tell her she's wrong and tell her to "shut up" then grab her and kiss her...see how she re-acts. If you really want to add a little spice throw her to the floor and tell her you're gonna "own her"...it make work in porn...but in the real world she's gonna make your balls hurt.

Hell maybe I'm wrong ...maybe my girl has me on too tight a leash...maybe I think women deserve a little more respect then Miller gives them credit. Maybe his way of thinking is totally acceptable...but to me that kinda sexist bullshit went out a long time ago.

that is a pretty interesting point you bring up about miller's stuff, thank you for using examples!

the all women are hookers line i thought was pretty interesting, considering that i assume you are talking about Sin City. In that case, not all women were hookers in there, and the ones that were were hookers because of the setting of the story (the bad side of town). You are also forgetting Selina Kyle, who has always been an independent soul...Miller hasn't changed that (yet). Also, Ellen Yindel was a great character in DKR, and she wasnt a lesbian or a cock-craver. Also you're forgetting Martha Washington, and Leonidas' wife in 300. All were excellently portrayed IMO.

I thought wonder woman's "sperm bank" line was hilarious, myself. maybe she was just cranky BECAUSE she was horny lol. I cant totally judge that line because we still have to see more of her, but also from the way superman talks to her, it seems that wonderwoman has just recently come to the world of man after living with the amazons....and im sure shes heard plenty of men-bashing on that island. I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict that she mellows out alot before this thing is over, seeing as how she isnt head-hunting bats in DK2.

WSSmith
09-23-2008, 01:04 PM
So he writes Batman as an Alpha Male. I know it must blow people's minds to see Batman written as a man's man. I see no difference in the way I view Batman and the way Miller writes him. I'm not sure what type of place you think Gotham is, but it would seem to take a Batman like Miller writes to have any affect on the criminals and bad guys. I think the issue where he kidnaps Robin is a perfect example of a properly written Batman.

Moonrider
09-23-2008, 01:14 PM
fair enough....ahem.

"Frank Miller has never given me grief. However I hate his writing and his art. I hate the fact that such a high profile writer does such slap dash work. And that people I would consider knowledgable and with sound opinions seem to become tools when the name of Miller comes up...he (and his mini-me's) ruined Batman in comics for at least a decade to the degree that Geoff Johns and the editorial team at D.C. had to make Batman "less of a Dick"


A lotta 'dick' has been thrown out in this thread. Record breaking. :har:

Anyway, I see your point but I don't think that his portrayals of Batman ruined the character in any way. At least his Batman: Year One is brilliant and do nothing but ground the character more to reality which in turn cause the butterfly effect that paid off with The Dark Knight film. DKR and DKR2 was probably subpar to the Year One before it in every way but it did influence the way people read and write about superheroes. Yes, DKR is no Watchmen and I never liked it but I can see how it was successful to a certain degree. In a way it benchmarked how brutal and crazy a Batman can be (though Morisson's work is going to stress the benchmark even further, I think) without losing his Batman characteristic. Yes, Miller is *probably* a chauvinist bastard but who gives a shit about that, it's not like his Batman is the definitive version of the concept anyway. That is why I never think much about ASBAR and never buy it. If I can get better stories of the Bat somewhere else, why bother bitching about it.

NickGuy
09-23-2008, 01:25 PM
DK2 was actually a brilliant satire on society today and how crazy everything has, can, and could get in our world.

Newt
09-23-2008, 02:57 PM
I like Miller's work, but that's because I don't take it seriously. I don't think Miller does either, but I could be wrong. For me reading a Frank Miller book is like listening to an AC/DC album- if you don't remind yourself that they're not really serious, you're not going to enjoy it.

NickGuy
09-23-2008, 03:02 PM
true

Eugene Selassie
09-23-2008, 03:07 PM
You guys are a trip.

Tried reading it...couldn't get past issue 6.

I don't see where all of this complex storytelling and deep allegorical content that everyone claims is in this story is.

This coming from someone who thinks Sin City is one of the greatest series ever.

NickGuy
09-23-2008, 03:15 PM
id say wait for it, but you seem to have given up already. if this does indeedfinish and it turns out to suck i will eat my words, but i have a feeling when its over alot of minds will be changed.

captainarian
09-23-2008, 05:10 PM
uh... :blink:

http://i33.tinypic.com/s5y2i0.jpg

Moonrider
09-23-2008, 06:12 PM
^Nothing wrong with that picture.

NickGuy
09-23-2008, 07:39 PM
agreed. thats awesome art.

Paul Sanderson
09-23-2008, 09:46 PM
Nothing wrong with the art.

captainarian
09-24-2008, 04:43 AM
that's not what i meant... jim lee is the best... this is the page done exactly to the original script...she grabbed the guy's balls... it seems that the editing team weren't so comfortable with that so they changed that part.
i'm just showing millers script... i'm not sure if it's wrong or not...
it's a cool idea to see a woman hurt guys with squizing their balls but with a 15 year old barbara... i just can't buy it.

Aidy
09-24-2008, 06:18 AM
that is a pretty interesting point you bring up about miller's stuff, thank you for using examples!

the all women are hookers line i thought was pretty interesting, considering that i assume you are talking about Sin City. In that case, not all women were hookers in there, and the ones that were were hookers because of the setting of the story (the bad side of town). You are also forgetting Selina Kyle, who has always been an independent soul...Miller hasn't changed that (yet). Also, Ellen Yindel was a great character in DKR, and she wasnt a lesbian or a cock-craver. Also you're forgetting Martha Washington, and Leonidas' wife in 300. All were excellently portrayed IMO.

I thought wonder woman's "sperm bank" line was hilarious, myself. maybe she was just cranky BECAUSE she was horny lol. I cant totally judge that line because we still have to see more of her, but also from the way superman talks to her, it seems that wonderwoman has just recently come to the world of man after living with the amazons....and im sure shes heard plenty of men-bashing on that island. I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict that she mellows out alot before this thing is over, seeing as how she isnt head-hunting bats in DK2.

I havent read Martha Washington. So i cant comment on that. and your right about Mrs Leonidas' wife...she was a strong woman who stood up to her husbands enemies and if I'm right got raped for her efforts. I may be wrong but I dont think Catwoman was a former hooker before Miller came along and even the lovely Karen Page...a Stan Lee creation was on drugs and became a hooker/porn star under Miller's reign.
yet again I find myself wondering what kind of mindfuck Miller suffered as a youth when the Prom queen turned him down at the Spring ball.

But I guess we're ruining the thread with all this talk of sexisim. :slap:

Moonrider
09-24-2008, 07:51 AM
yet again I find myself wondering what kind of mindfuck Miller suffered as a youth when the Prom queen turned him down at the Spring ball.

You didn't! :eek:

:laugh:

Okay seriously, as I said before Miller probably is a dick though I've never met him so I can't be sure, but back to the topic at hand I don't see any problem in the portrayal of a Batgirl grabbing bad guys by the balls. For one it shows that this girl is a badass and have no qualms whatsoever over using extreme force. That is more or less show signs of a strong character. And to be fair, he didn't do anything new or worse than what Mark Millar has done in Kick-Ass. A fifteen year old girl squeezing balls? Try a little girl hacking people to pieces. That I have a problem dealing with.

Aidy
09-24-2008, 07:53 AM
You didn't! :eek:

:laugh:

Okay seriously, as I said before Miller probably is a dick though I've never met him so I can't be sure, but back to the topic at hand I don't see any problem in the portrayal of a Batgirl grabbing bad guys by the balls. For one it shows that this girl is a badass and have no qualms whatsoever over using extreme force. That is more or less show signs of a strong character. And to be fair, he didn't do anything new or worse than what Mark Millar has done in Kick-Ass. A fifteen year old girl squeezing balls? Try a little girl hacking people to pieces. That I have a problem dealing with.


what about if a guy grabbed a girl by the vaginal skin?

Ingrid K. V. Hardy
09-24-2008, 08:38 AM
Oh well putting kids (girls mind...not women) in the robin suite outweighs the fact that in Miller's world ALL WOMEN ARE HOOKERS....yes even Wonder Woman, ...who in ASBAR is a Man hater until she gets some super-loving...calling a dude a Sperm Bank. And in DK2 asked Superman to throw her to the floor and "own her"...I find that characterisation a little hard too swallow (pun probably intended).....

In Miller's world if you aint getting dick or (heaven forbid) you dont want dick right there and then...you're a man hater/lesbian/wonderwoman. In ASBAR. Wonder woman seemed a little more sociable once Supes had given her the tongue of steel. I mean she'd just ranted her ass off about how shit men where/are...and had been telling everyone how wrong they where about Batman and how he should be hunted down..until she got patted on the head by Superman, and then she kinda mellowed a bit. "All she needed was a good dicking".

Here's a plan...wait for your girl to come home pissed off about work, tell her she's wrong and tell her to "shut up" then grab her and kiss her...see how she re-acts. If you really want to add a little spice throw her to the floor and tell her you're gonna "own her"...it make work in porn...but in the real world she's gonna make your balls hurt.

Hell maybe I'm wrong ...maybe my girl has me on too tight a leash...maybe I think women deserve a little more respect then Miller gives them credit. Maybe his way of thinking is totally acceptable...but to me that kinda sexist bullshit went out a long time ago.

So this really is the level of superhero comics now? This is supposed to be riveting storytelling? Funny, this kind of goes in hand with the other thread ''female characters in comics''... if I'm allowed to mention it. This is utterly revolting. It makes BOTH men and women look like ****ing neanderthals with no respect for anybody. This is going right over my head, I don't understand any of this.

Moonrider
09-24-2008, 11:43 AM
what about if a guy grabbed a girl by the vaginal skin?

Depends on the context of the story.

Aidy
09-24-2008, 11:56 AM
Depends on the context of the story.

:laugh:

Rob Norton
09-24-2008, 12:59 PM
So this really is the level of superhero comics now? This is supposed to be riveting storytelling? Funny, this kind of goes in hand with the other thread ''female characters in comics''... if I'm allowed to mention it. This is utterly revolting. It makes BOTH men and women look like ****ing neanderthals with no respect for anybody. This is going right over my head, I don't understand any of this.

oh sweet christ. "is this the level of superhero comics?" come on. this is ONE book. one writer. it isnt the STANDARD of current comics by ANY stretch of the imagination. and if you cant see that.. then, well....

this is not the most outrageous thing to be in comics by a long shot. i certainly can see why some people dont like it, but its not the most shocking thing in comics and not the standard of comics now.

rob

NickGuy
09-24-2008, 01:46 PM
You didn't! :eek:

:laugh:

Okay seriously, as I said before Miller probably is a dick though I've never met him so I can't be sure, but back to the topic at hand I don't see any problem in the portrayal of a Batgirl grabbing bad guys by the balls. For one it shows that this girl is a badass and have no qualms whatsoever over using extreme force. That is more or less show signs of a strong character. And to be fair, he didn't do anything new or worse than what Mark Millar has done in Kick-Ass. A fifteen year old girl squeezing balls? Try a little girl hacking people to pieces. That I have a problem dealing with.

I am very against judging an author/artist by the kind of stuff they write or draw. we dont judge actors by the roles they play, so why say Miller is a dick because he writes his characters as one?

Rob Norton
09-24-2008, 01:51 PM
I am very against judging an author/artist by the kind of stuff they write or draw. we dont judge actors by the roles they play, so why say Miller is a dick because he writes his characters as one?


THANK you. well said

Moonrider
09-24-2008, 02:31 PM
I am very against judging an author/artist by the kind of stuff they write or draw. we dont judge actors by the roles they play, so why say Miller is a dick because he writes his characters as one?

Did I say that? No I didn't, Sir! I said he's probably a dick, but I have said in an earlier post that I don't even give a shit nor do I feel compelled to prove the statement. I do not stand against Miller nor do I stand for him, I was simply stating my opinions on the Batgirl portrayal alone which I personally have no problems with.

Nick Kerklaan
09-24-2008, 02:34 PM
I also just want to add that a of Miller's portrayal of women is informed by film noir and the like, where women are often simultaneously shown as sex objects and strong, willful people.

What I'm trying to say is, just because a female character is, say, a hooker, doesn't mean she's not a strong female character. I'll take those warrior-prostitutes from Sin City as a depiction of strong, independent women over Power Girl any day.

Ingrid K. V. Hardy
09-24-2008, 02:50 PM
oh sweet christ. "is this the level of superhero comics?" come on. this is ONE book. one writer. it isnt the STANDARD of current comics by ANY stretch of the imagination. and if you cant see that.. then, well....

this is not the most outrageous thing to be in comics by a long shot. i certainly can see why some people dont like it, but its not the most shocking thing in comics and not the standard of comics now.

rob

My intention was not to make anyone angry. I'll keep it to myself.

NickGuy
09-24-2008, 02:57 PM
Did I say that? No I didn't, Sir! I said he's probably a dick, but I have said in an earlier post that I don't even give a shit nor do I feel compelled to prove the statement. I do not stand against Miller nor do I stand for him, I was simply stating my opinions on the Batgirl portrayal alone which I personally have no problems with.

i was quoting you, but i was also responding to the "i hate frank miller" quote from earlier this thread. I know what you said, and what i meant by my reply was that i dont think its very smart to say someone is something based on what they write. if you wrote a comic about child molesters, I would not call you a pedophile or sick.

Moonrider
09-24-2008, 03:04 PM
Miller is shaping up to be the 21st century Marquis deSade, then.

kdmelrose
09-24-2008, 03:27 PM
Better than a 21st-century Markie Post, I suppose.

http://llamabutchers.mu.nu/archives/Markie%20Post%20joella.jpg

Aidy
09-25-2008, 06:20 AM
i was quoting you, but i was also responding to the "i hate frank miller" quote from earlier this thread. I know what you said, and what i meant by my reply was that i dont think its very smart to say someone is something based on what they write. if you wrote a comic about child molesters, I would not call you a pedophile or sick.

Trust me dude..I'm smart enough. Now if the Miller had contained his lust for street walkers in Sin City that would rosey with me...it'd fit the story and world he created...but he then jumps from Marvel to DC leaving a trail of hookers behind him. Regardless of the timeline of the publications and what came out first...Miller see's a woman in comics and thinks..."hmmm hooker" in the same way he see's a hero and decides they should be tired, beaten and feeling ever niggle and pain in the body. they should also refer to everyone they met as a punk
How can you not say someone is something based on what they right? Thompson was a drinking, gun tooting journalist who liked a bet and he wrote as such. Tolkien was a English fantasist and wrote as such. Frank Herbert was into sand and wrote about sand. Robert A. Heinlein was a conservative who worte about conformist conservative sci-fi. Gaimen is a jewish fan of Michael Moorcock..and blow me apart with a hooker if he doesnt in actual fact write as such....H.G.Wells was a Darwinist who believed that evolution could be reversed..and holy shit...doesnt that happen in time machine??!?!

Moonrider
09-25-2008, 07:53 AM
Trust me dude..I'm smart enough. Now if the Miller had contained his lust for street walkers in Sin City that would rosey with me...it'd fit the story and world he created...but he then jumps from Marvel to DC leaving a trail of hookers behind him. Regardless of the timeline of the publications and what came out first...Miller see's a woman in comics and thinks..."hmmm hooker" in the same way he see's a hero and decides they should be tired, beaten and feeling ever niggle and pain in the body. they should also refer to everyone they met as a punk
How can you not say someone is something based on what they right? Thompson was a drinking, gun tooting journalist who liked a bet and he wrote as such. Tolkien was a English fantasist and wrote as such. Frank Herbert was into sand and wrote about sand. Robert A. Heinlein was a conservative who worte about conformist conservative sci-fi. Gaimen is a jewish fan of Michael Moorcock..and blow me apart with a hooker if he doesnt in actual fact write as such....H.G.Wells was a Darwinist who believed that evolution could be reversed..and holy shit...doesnt that happen in time machine??!?!

Now this is what happens if you take stuff too seriously. I mean why would you be interested in trying to describe Miller's psychological profile under the notion that you are absolutely sure he's a sex predator? Are you even sure of what you're saying about the guy, do you know him personally to be able to describe him as such? Who are you to judge a man?

Aidy
09-25-2008, 08:47 AM
Now this is what happens if you take stuff too seriously. I mean why would you be interested in trying to describe Miller's psychological profile under the notion that you are absolutely sure he's a sex predator? Are you even sure of what you're saying about the guy, do you know him personally to be able to describe him as such? Who are you to judge a man?

i'm not saying he's a sexual predator...and if it came across that way I'm sorry. Frank, I'm sorry.

What I'm saying is that he writes as a sexist, misogynistic writer and something of a one trick "Noir" pony. Who is constantly held up as one of Comicdoms greatest talents when we should be asking ourselves is this the kind of man we want as an ambassador.

NickGuy
09-26-2008, 12:28 AM
i'm not saying he's a sexual predator...and if it came across that way I'm sorry. Frank, I'm sorry.

What I'm saying is that he writes as a sexist, misogynistic writer and something of a one trick "Noir" pony. Who is constantly held up as one of Comicdoms greatest talents when we should be asking ourselves is this the kind of man we want as an ambassador.

Absolutely.

Moonrider
09-26-2008, 12:55 AM
Who's the idiot who appointed him ambassador? :laugh:

The guy writes what he likes, and we buy what we like. If the majority of comic book readers say his works are all genius level masterpieces then we got a lot to explain for ourselves.

Biofungus
09-26-2008, 04:48 AM
Yeah, I think Miller is WAY past his prime. The only reason he still gets work today is because of stuff he wrote in the 80's.

NickGuy
09-26-2008, 03:57 PM
Who's the idiot who appointed him ambassador? :laugh:

The guy writes what he likes, and we buy what we like. If the majority of comic book readers say his works are all genius level masterpieces then we got a lot to explain for ourselves.


i dont think comics really need ambassadors. Do movies have ambassadors? We dont need someone to go out there and say "hey look at me and look at this comic book thing i do". comics are part of pop culture, they dont need to be promoted as such, they just are.

as for the second half of your posts...alot of people also say that family guy is a funny tv show. now i dont agree, but i dont think that there is something wrong with the people who like it. I would have thought everyone would get that ASBAR isnt meant to be taken so seriously and laugh along, but it seems to really divide people. either you like it or you dont.

The Spirit
09-26-2008, 05:13 PM
Yeah, I think Miller is WAY past his prime. The only reason he still gets work today is because of stuff he wrote in the 80's.
I disagree, I think he should be doing new Sin City stories but he should never touch mainstream Superhero comics again.

Nick Kerklaan
09-26-2008, 05:19 PM
I disagree, I think he should be doing new Sin City stories but he should never touch mainstream Superhero comics again.

Or you could, you know, just not read his mainstream superhero stuff. :yawn:

NickGuy
09-26-2008, 06:33 PM
I disagree, I think he should be doing new Sin City stories but he should never touch mainstream Superhero comics again.

why not? they arent sacred. theyre SUPERHERO COMIC BOOKS, for crying out loud.


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l48/NickGuy_2006/kajfnaabd.jpg

Biofungus
09-26-2008, 06:41 PM
I'm just waiting for the All-Star Superman recall when Clark utters to himself, "Son of a gun!"

:p

Paul Sanderson
09-26-2008, 09:22 PM
Yeah, I think Miller is WAY past his prime. The only reason he still gets work today is because of stuff he wrote in the 80's.

Exactly!

Rob Norton
09-27-2008, 12:40 AM
Exactly!


yeeeah.. thats the ONLY reason. yep. thats it.
well. i guess you guys have figured it ALLLLL out. guess we can close this thread now.

Moonrider
09-27-2008, 01:25 AM
as for the second half of your posts...alot of people also say that family guy is a funny tv show. now i dont agree, but i dont think that there is something wrong with the people who like it. I would have thought everyone would get that ASBAR isnt meant to be taken so seriously and laugh along, but it seems to really divide people. either you like it or you dont.

Do you consider something that you don't take seriously as great masterpieces? Family Guy may be watched by millions of viewers, but Finding Nemo it is not. That's what I was getting at. There's no problem with anyone liking ASBAR, but to say that Frank Miller is the best damn comic book writer that ever lived based on that is another story altogether.

Paul Sanderson
09-27-2008, 02:01 AM
yeeeah.. thats the ONLY reason. yep. thats it.
well. i guess you guys have figured it ALLLLL out. guess we can close this thread now.

You can do what you like, of course, but it won't change my opinion that Miller is a has-been way past his prime.

Mic. Gee
09-27-2008, 03:57 AM
Name me one creator who was big in the 1980s who is in his prime anymore.
I think what happened was that Miller alienated some of the hardcore fan base when he went off to do Sin City.

ASBR is sexist for sure but we were all given that impression very early on that there was going to be "eye candy."
I think Miller's approach to Wonder Woman is probably the only interesting one because he openly explores the character's contraditcions--she comes from a place where women are seen as superior to men and now she has to take orders from them--why would she be happy about that? I think it's a departure from the barbie doll take on the character for the last what 60 years.

I think only a moron would come to the conclusion that Miller hates women or all his female characters are hookers This is speculation from from people who don't the guy's work and just have a vendetta against him because he's not always politically correct. What I do see is a lot of damals in distress and female fatales. What there suggests a contempt for women? Did he have someone brutally raped or something?

Brad Meltzer built a major mainstream storyline with that. He did it for what seemed like shock value but he doesn't get accused of anything because he's sentimental as much as his readers are.


As for women having problems with portrayal of women-- I think it's a mistake for any woman to think she can can speak for every woman's sensibility because they have access to a computer with an internet connection. In the Middle East it's taboo in many areas for women to wear anything that shows their figure. Is that a form of oppression or do men in the middle east respect women more?

Moonrider
09-27-2008, 06:23 AM
As for women having problems with portrayal of women-- I think it's a mistake for any woman to think she can can speak for every woman's sensibility because they have access to a computer with an internet connection. In the Middle East it's taboo in many areas for women to wear anything that shows their figure. Is that a form of oppression or do men in the middle east respect women more?

Good point. Coming from a country where most women can freely choose to wear the veil because of their devotion of faith, I always think it's strange that many westerners view them as being oppressed simply by judging them from what they wear.

captainarian
09-27-2008, 10:22 AM
FRANK MILLER RAPED THE GREAT PERSIAN EMPIRES GLORY AND ALL IT STOOD FOR. SO YEAH FOR that i call him an ass for not even researching a bit. but that's another story for an other time.

kdmelrose
09-27-2008, 10:25 AM
:blink:

I think you give Miller too much credit.

NickGuy
09-27-2008, 10:40 AM
Do you consider something that you don't take seriously as great masterpieces? Family Guy may be watched by millions of viewers, but Finding Nemo it is not. That's what I was getting at. There's no problem with anyone liking ASBAR, but to say that Frank Miller is the best damn comic book writer that ever lived based on that is another story altogether.


Napoleon, like anyone could even know that... :laugh:


I dont think Miller is the best goddamn comic book writer that ever lived, but i do think he is the most interesting. I mean, who else is going out there and just having as much blatant fun with the characters as miller?

Nick Kerklaan
09-27-2008, 11:44 AM
FRANK MILLER RAPED THE GREAT PERSIAN EMPIRES GLORY AND ALL IT STOOD FOR. SO YEAH FOR that i call him an ass for not even researching a bit. but that's another story for an other time.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Artsta
10-04-2008, 06:06 AM
did this book really come out on september 24th??? i check dc's website every few months but it always gets delayed. did this finally happen?