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Raven
07-10-2008, 01:08 PM
What books since 2000 would be considered classics in the future?

I am not sure if there has really been any groundbreaking work the last decade, if anything it seems as if the last 8 years at Marvel and DC were simply attempts return to the pre-90's success of the "status quo" and "crossover events".

But outside of Marvel and DC, I can think of a few groundbreaking works; Mouse Guard and Pride of Baghdad.

Anyone else?

Nick Kerklaan
07-10-2008, 04:36 PM
Maybe I shouldn't reply to this, since it seems destined to turn into yet another "Marvel and DC suck now!" bitchfest, but:

I haven't read it, but Y: The Last Man seems like it's often being namechecked as such.

Or Ex Machina.

Or the new Cap run.

I will be, I know, horribly flamed for this, but in my opinion: Identity Crisis and 52.

I also think Invincible and Walking Dead will eventually be looked back on as, if not "groundbreaking works", at least solid examples of their genres, and certainly as standout success stories for independent books.

Mwynn
07-10-2008, 04:41 PM
The Current run of Green Lantern.

Mark Bertolini
07-10-2008, 04:54 PM
I'll go with:

Ex Machina
Y: The Last Man
Transmetropolitan
Planetary
Starman
Sin City
Spider-Man: Reign
Punisher MAX
Bendis's Daredevil

there's more, I just can think of them right now.

WSSmith
07-10-2008, 05:16 PM
100 BULLETS
BULLSEYE: GREATEST HITS
BUSIEK AND NORD'S: CONAN
The LONE RANGER
30 DAYS of NIGHT
TELLOS
BRUBAKER'S - CAPT AMERICA AND DAREDEVIL
FABLES
The EXTERMINATORS
G MORRISON'S - SEVEN SOLDIERS OF VICTORY


AND MY 80'S TILL TODAY PICK IS MY #1 COMIC FAV:

USAGI YOJIMBO

Newt
07-10-2008, 05:35 PM
As far as relatively mainstream stuff, I agree that 100 Bullets and Y the Last Man will probably be on the list, as well as the next-gen supers like Invincible and Hellboy. But I expect as far as comics historians of the future are concerned, this decade will be most notable for the broadening of the field. Stuff like Persepolis, Jimmy Corrigan, and probably some crazy webcomics that I've never heard of will be the touchstones for the decade; works that expand on and go further than the literary comics of the 80s and 90s.

I'm not too clear on publication dates; some of those may actually date from the 90s.

Buckyrig
07-10-2008, 05:41 PM
Off the top of my head (and mainstream)


The New Frontier
X-Statix


Others...but I'm too lazy to put much thought into it right now. :)

Nick Kerklaan
07-10-2008, 05:41 PM
As far as relatively mainstream stuff, I agree that 100 Bullets and Y the Last Man will probably be on the list, as well as the next-gen supers like Invincible and Hellboy. But I expect as far as comics historians of the future are concerned, this decade will be most notable for the broadening of the field. Stuff like Persepolis, Jimmy Corrigan, and probably some crazy webcomics that I've never heard of will be the touchstones for the decade; works that expand on and go further than the literary comics of the 80s and 90s.

I'm not too clear on publication dates; some of those may actually date from the 90s.

I agree. I'm not all that well-versed on comics lit, so I went to more mainstream/genre stuff for my picks.

I definitely would've included Jimmy Corrigan, which seems to have already more or less attained the status of "classic", but I thought it was from the 90s. As it is, it actually came out in 2000, so it counts.

Phatman
07-10-2008, 06:17 PM
What books since 2000 would be considered classics in the future?

I am not sure if there has really been any groundbreaking work the last decade, if anything it seems as if the last 8 years at Marvel and DC were simply attempts return to the pre-90's success of the "status quo" and "crossover events".



Here's a few:

Ultimates, Ultimate Spiderman, Daredevil,The Authority, Ex Machina, Y:The Last Man, Fables, 100 Bullets, All-star Superman, Conan, The Goon, Hellboy,The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Whiteout, Queen and Country, Shaolin Cowboy, Powers, Planetary, The Boys

Nick Kerklaan
07-10-2008, 06:24 PM
Here's a few:

Ultimates, Ultimate Spiderman, Daredevil,The Authority, Ex Machina, Y:The Last Man, Fables, 100 Bullets, All-star Superman, Conan, The Goon, Hellboy,The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Whiteout, Queen and Country, Shaolin Cowboy, Powers, Planetary, The Boys

Oh yeah! Doh!

T.J. May
07-10-2008, 08:32 PM
David Boring

Blankets

But the last 8 years will likely be historically remembered (at least stateside) for the influx of Manga titles, etc.

ronin7
07-10-2008, 08:58 PM
The Bendis, Ellis, Millar, Morrison, Vaughn, and other innovative works will be remembered along with the influx of the Manga titles. Though I think Millar is going to go down as this decade's Alan Moore if the critics are anything to go by.

kdmelrose
07-10-2008, 09:00 PM
Though I think Millar is going to go down as this decade's Alan Moore if the critics are anything to go by.

What?!?

:blink:

:laugh:

Mark Bertolini
07-10-2008, 09:08 PM
Yeah, what?

I'm pretty sure Alan Moore is this decade's Alan Moore.

And if it's not him, it won't be Mark Millar, it'll be Warren Ellis.

Nick Kerklaan
07-11-2008, 02:43 AM
Or Frank Miller!


http://www.additiverich.com/knife/archives/GoddamnBatman.jpg


:laugh:

Paul Sanderson
07-11-2008, 02:50 AM
There are good comics out today. Y The Last Man, Green Lantern, Detective Comics and a few more. But I wouldn't classify any of these as classics, now or ever. A good comic doesn't make it a classic. Nothing around today (or the last 8 years) is good enough to be categorised as such, not in my book.

kdmelrose
07-11-2008, 07:43 AM
Frank Dirscherl in "Comics Aren't As Good As They Used To Be" Shocker!

:laugh:

Aidy
07-11-2008, 07:54 AM
I can't believe its not the Justice League,
Planetary Brigade
The Authority
Planetary
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
From Hell...or is this 90's?
(as much as I dont like it) Ultimate Spider-man
Identity Crisis
Bone
All Star Superman
7 Soilders
52 (due to the sheer amount of graft involved)
Green Lantern Rebirth
Owly

Raven
07-11-2008, 09:11 AM
I really don't see stuff like Ultimate Spider-Man and Green Lantern as groundbreaking. These titles simply restored the characters to their previous high profile position. Although I'd say Brubaker's Cap book is also in this category, it is so well done it goes beyond that.

Now Ex Machina is a great example.

Half the stuff you guys mentioned is from the 90's. :)

Paul Sanderson
07-11-2008, 09:39 AM
Frank Dirscherl in "Comics Aren't As Good As They Used To Be" Shocker!

:laugh:

Laugh all you want, but I happen to go by the true meaning of the word classic. Today the word is so overused, we use it to describe a half decent haircut. I'm talking about something much more than that, and say what you like, but I don't see anything truly matching the definition of classic in the last 8 years.

Ian Ascher
07-11-2008, 10:46 AM
What books since 2000 would be considered classics in the future?

I am not sure if there has really been any groundbreaking work the last decade, if anything it seems as if the last 8 years at Marvel and DC were simply attempts return to the pre-90's success of the "status quo" and "crossover events".

But outside of Marvel and DC, I can think of a few groundbreaking works; Mouse Guard and Pride of Baghdad.

Anyone else?


Are you thinking along the lines of books like Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns? Books that 20 plus years later are still in print and still being discussed as to what they did for the industry as a whole and how, both inside and out?

Or are you just thinking along the terms of something like Stan Lee & Jack Kirby on Fantastic Four or Frank Miller's run on Daredevil? Great runs on regular monthly titles that will be used as examples of how a monthly comic can succeed in this industry and hold up over time.

If it's the former... I don't think we've seen anything as powerful and it might be another 8 years before we do again. If it's the latter... than just about everything mentioned in this thread is going to be correct in someone's eyes.

A classic will always be a classic in the eyes of someone who thinks it to be so.

That said.... my list includes:

Sandman
Planetary
Hellboy
Green Lantern (Johns run)
Queen & Country

Aidy
07-11-2008, 11:21 AM
ah yeah...
Sandman...how could I forget that...
also
Marvels (Alex Ross and kurt Busek)
Kingdom come
Hellblazer

Phatman
07-11-2008, 11:48 AM
ah yeah...
Sandman...how could I forget that...
also
Marvels (Alex Ross and kurt Busek)
Kingdom come
Hellblazer

Marvels-'94
Kingdom Come-'96

Great comics, but wrong decade.

Phatman
07-11-2008, 12:04 PM
A good comic doesn't make it a classic. Nothing around today (or the last 8 years) is good enough to be categorised as such, not in my book.

You're wrong. Longevity isn't the only thing that can make a good comic into a classic---if you were to list your "classics", I'll guarantee you that I could counter with a contemporary book that is as good or better.

Is Miller's run on Daredevil a "classic" and the Bendis/Maleev run not?
Are the Shooter/Perez or Busiek/Perez Avenger's runs "classics" and The Ultimates not?
Is Seed of Destruction or The Chained Coffin a "classic" and Conquerer Worm not?
Are Fables, Ex Machina, The Goon, etc. just good comics and not classics?

I think you really need to broaden your horizons and actually read and experience some of the work you're are criticizing---it stacks up against any sequential artwork ever created.

Aidy
07-11-2008, 12:04 PM
super...I am living in a 90's grunge timewarp, I can't wait for the new screaming tree's album.

Phatman
07-11-2008, 12:05 PM
super...I am living in a 90's grunge timewarp, I can't wait for the new screaming tree's album.

Ross did do those mega-size books for Dc this decade---very cool stuff.

Aidy
07-11-2008, 12:11 PM
Ross did do those mega-size books for Dc this decade---very cool stuff.


Yeah, the newspaper sized books?I got my missues the Wonder woman one and the two JLA ones. The dudes art is unbelivable. In his collected art of DC book, there's a pic of his giant cardboard cut outs of Alan Scott and Jay Garrick and they look real. Like photo real.....talented bastard..makes me sick

ronin7
07-11-2008, 04:43 PM
Yeah, what?

I'm pretty sure Alan Moore is this decade's Alan Moore.

And if it's not him, it won't be Mark Millar, it'll be Warren Ellis.


Mark Millar's been proclaimed as Britain's highest selling writer of this decade. And his works have been compared to Alan Moore's Watchmen constantly. Aside from being very critical of Alan Moore and some of Mark Millar's work. I do see the difference in skill between Millar and Moore. Though, I'm not going to get into a "who is better war" because a) it'd be a waste of all of our times and b) I don't care.

Mark Bertolini
07-11-2008, 04:49 PM
Mark Millar's been proclaimed as Britain's highest selling writer of this decade. And his works have been compared to Alan Moore's Watchmen constantly. Aside from being very critical of Alan Moore and some of Mark Millar's work. I do see the difference in skill between Millar and Moore. Though, I'm not going to get into a "who is better war" because a) it'd be a waste of all of our times and b) I don't care.


Yeah, I get what you're saying. Personally, I like Millar's work, but I would liken Warren Ellis as more of an Alan Moore-type writer than Millar, but that's just me. Maybe not selling-wise, but definately mindset-wise. Millar does a lot of work that you know will sell boatloads, but Warren Ellis does work he wants to do, regardless of how much it will sell, which I think is closer to what Alan Moore does (Lost Girls, anyone?).

(Although, Millar did put out some stellar work on his creator-owned work, like Chosen, Wanted, and the Unfunnies.....I think I forgot the point I was trying to make.... :laugh: )

kdmelrose
07-11-2008, 05:00 PM
Mark Millar's been proclaimed as Britain's highest selling writer of this decade.

Yeah, by Mark Millar!

:laugh:

And his works have been compared to Alan Moore's Watchmen constantly.

Who has compared his works to Watchmen?

jeffo46
07-11-2008, 05:27 PM
I don't usually buy DC or Marvel except for Showcase or the Essentials series,but I did make a exception for Identity Crisis when it came out in trade paperback form.IMO,that was one of the best things to come out of DC in years,so yeah,I would consider that a classic that hopefully would still be remembered years from now.

WSSmith
07-11-2008, 06:41 PM
What no IDENTITY DISC fans?

I think a major change in the industry nowadays is thanks to the Hollywood money and the Internet. Writers ( Bendis is a great example), Artists (Sale's a great example), and artist/writers (Frank Miller) have become their own brands! They are a corporation unto themselves. Marvel and DC have yet to fully accept this, but they are learning (example The Avengers/Invaders w/ Ross). This one could have eaten them alive from the inside. Image's creation in the 90's was the launching pad. It showed what power creators really have nowadays. I think this is wonderful for the creators. However the trick is Marvel and DC are not the kingmakers anymore. So who is? Well it's not the comic readers either!! It is Hollywood and the Internet the places that generate the most revenue and attention. It's a good thing Marvel has a Studio now. They will only be hurt at the comic shelves and comic stores because folks will buy more Indy and small press stuff. Mainly because the big creators don't need the big 2 to produce quality product. They can do it themselves. It forces the big 2 to embrace things like the ICON and VERTIGO lines more and more.

A few more classics:

STRANGE EMBRACE - David Hine
PANORAMA OF HELL - Hideshi Hino
LOST GIRLS- Alan Moore
PALOMAR - Gilbert Hernandez
LOCAS - Jaime Hernandez
STRANGEHAVEN - Gary Spencer Milledge
The FRANK BOOK - Jim Woodring
KINGDOM of the WICKED - Chris Grahame
To AFGHANISTAN and BACK - Ted Rall
PROMETHEA, TOP 10, and TOM STRONG - Alan Moore's ABC Comics

Paul Sanderson
07-11-2008, 08:53 PM
Identity Crisis was one of the worst comic book storylines I've ever had the displeasure of reading :yuk:

Nick Kerklaan
07-11-2008, 10:33 PM
Sandman is 90s too, guys.

Raven
07-12-2008, 10:33 AM
I find it funny whenever Bendis is mentioned.

He did all his classic work before going to Marvel. Ever since, he's been kind of fanfiction-ish (Daredevil being the exception). Nothing he has done since compares to his early work.

Nick Kerklaan
07-13-2008, 01:39 PM
Yeah, I get what you're saying. Personally, I like Millar's work, but I would liken Warren Ellis as more of an Alan Moore-type writer than Millar, but that's just me. Maybe not selling-wise, but definately mindset-wise. Millar does a lot of work that you know will sell boatloads, but Warren Ellis does work he wants to do, regardless of how much it will sell, which I think is closer to what Alan Moore does (Lost Girls, anyone?).


Weirdly enough, a bunch of stuff I ordered on Amazon just came in recently, including Lost Girls and Transmetropolitan Vols. 1-3. Perhaps I'll have more to say after I actually read them.

Mark Bertolini
07-13-2008, 02:15 PM
Weirdly enough, a bunch of stuff I ordered on Amazon just came in recently, including Lost Girls and Transmetropolitan Vols. 1-3. Perhaps I'll have more to say after I actually read them.



Transmet is a winner every time. Let me know how Lost Girls is, I'd considering picking it up.

Eugene Selassie
07-13-2008, 02:15 PM
I find it funny whenever Bendis is mentioned.

He did all his classic work before going to Marvel. Ever since, he's been kind of fanfiction-ish (Daredevil being the exception). Nothing he has done since compares to his early work.

What about Alias and Ultimate Spider Man?
Those were light years ahead of most of the stuff on shelves.

Mark Bertolini
07-13-2008, 02:16 PM
What about Alias and Ultimate Spider Man?
Those were light years ahead of most of the stuff on shelves.



I think in 10 years, Alias is going to be remembered as Bendis's opus.

Eugene Selassie
07-13-2008, 02:23 PM
Transmet is so fucking brilliant.

Warren Ellis is so fucking brilliant...

:har:

Nick Kerklaan
07-13-2008, 02:34 PM
Transmet is a winner every time. Let me know how Lost Girls is, I'd considering picking it up.
Will do. It definitely looks gorgeous. Which it should, considering how goddamn expensive it is. If I wasn't a Moore fanboy...

On the subject of Bendis, what about his crime stuff? Jinx, Goldfish, Torso, etc. Is that worth looking into? I'm hearing Alias and Powers get mentioned fairly often, so I'll have to look into those. I read the first volume of USM and wasn't particularly impressed. That whole book could have been one, or at the most, two to three issues.

And, lastly, my local used book store has the hardcovers of Vol. 1 and 2 of Sinestro Corps War for $15.00 each. I decided against getting them 'cause flipping through didn't immediately grab me, but am now starting to regret my decision. Assuming they're still there, are they worth picking up? Keeping in mind that I haven't read any of the series up to that point, or actually, any of Johns' Green Lantern at all.

Really, I've barely read any Johns. 52 and one issue of Justice Society of America are all that come to mind.

Eugene Selassie
07-13-2008, 02:49 PM
Will do. It definitely looks gorgeous. Which it should, considering how goddamn expensive it is. If I wasn't a Moore fanboy...

On the subject of Bendis, what about his crime stuff? Jinx, Goldfish, Torso, etc. Is that worth looking into? I'm hearing Alias and Powers get mentioned fairly often, so I'll have to look into those. I read the first volume of USM and wasn't particularly impressed. That whole book could have been one, or at the most, two to three issues.

And, lastly, my local used book store has the hardcovers of Vol. 1 and 2 of Sinestro Corps War for $15.00 each. I decided against getting them 'cause flipping through didn't immediately grab me, but am now starting to regret my decision. Assuming they're still there, are they worth picking up? Keeping in mind that I haven't read any of the series up to that point, or actually, any of Johns' Green Lantern at all.

Really, I've barely read any Johns. 52 and one issue of Justice Society of America are all that come to mind.

On Bendis...READ JINX ASAP! It was a damn good read. Goldfish as well, in fact I saw the trade at my LCS for half price, I need to scoop that. Never read Torso.

On Johns...I HIGHLY RECOMMEND starting at the beginning with Green Lantern: Rebirth. You'll get a better appreciation for the characters besides Hal. It was a great read. In fact, if you didn't like the TPB, I'd buy it from you man...that is how confident I am.

Johns' Green Lantern redefined the classic monthly just as Bendis did on Daredevil.

Nick Kerklaan
07-13-2008, 03:35 PM
Great, more books to buy.

But you might be right, part of what turned me off from buying Sinestro Corps was it kind of seemed it picks up mid-story.

Related question: my budget can probably withstand getting all the Green Lantern trades, or all of Brubaker's Cap trades (well, including the Omnibus, which apparently collects the first 25 issues). Which, in everyone's opinion, should I get? They both seem up my alley, and I probably will eventually end up reading them both, so it's really just a matter of which one is so good that I absolutely have to read it first.

Also, with Cap, should I start at the beginning, or can I just pick up with the Death of Captain America arc?

Eugene Selassie
07-13-2008, 03:41 PM
Great, more books to buy.

But you might be right, part of what turned me off from buying Sinestro Corps was it kind of seemed it picks up mid-story.

Related question: my budget can probably withstand getting all the Green Lantern trades, or all of Brubaker's Cap trades (well, including the Omnibus, which apparently collects the first 25 issues). Which, in everyone's opinion, should I get? They both seem up my alley, and I probably will eventually end up reading them both, so it's really just a matter of which one is so good that I absolutely have to read it first.

Also, with Cap, should I start at the beginning, or can I just pick up with the Death of Captain America arc?

You shouldn't start with Death of Captain America. Go back and start from the beginning. Ed Bru really toiled to plant all of the seeds to get to that point, and you won't enjoy it as much. I noticed alot of the people who jumped on board with Death of at my LCS liked it, but didnt love it until they went back and got the previous volumes.

GL or Cap...I'd get both.

ronin7
07-13-2008, 04:03 PM
Will do. It definitely looks gorgeous. Which it should, considering how goddamn expensive it is. If I wasn't a Moore fanboy...

On the subject of Bendis, what about his crime stuff? Jinx, Goldfish, Torso, etc. Is that worth looking into? I'm hearing Alias and Powers get mentioned fairly often, so I'll have to look into those. I read the first volume of USM and wasn't particularly impressed. That whole book could have been one, or at the most, two to three issues.

And, lastly, my local used book store has the hardcovers of Vol. 1 and 2 of Sinestro Corps War for $15.00 each. I decided against getting them 'cause flipping through didn't immediately grab me, but am now starting to regret my decision. Assuming they're still there, are they worth picking up? Keeping in mind that I haven't read any of the series up to that point, or actually, any of Johns' Green Lantern at all.

Really, I've barely read any Johns. 52 and one issue of Justice Society of America are all that come to mind.

Goldfish and Torso were great reads, but you'll probably find Bendis' art work generic like every one else did. Other then that I highly recommend them. As to Geoff Johns, I can't recommend anything from him because he misses more often than he hits.

Calloway
07-13-2008, 04:10 PM
Bruce Jones run on Hulk. Gave the true hulk back to the fans for a while. He was also able to make it feel classic in the sense of Jekyll and Hyde in mood and style. A lot has to be said of the perfect teaming of JRJR and his colorists as well. Sadly it went south again.

Eugene Selassie
07-13-2008, 04:14 PM
Here's one that WOULD HAVE been classic if they got to do a lengthy run.

Ellis/Granov on Iron Man.

If they got full creative freedom and had a 3-4 year run on the book, it would be talked about in the same breath as Ed Bru's Cap, Johns JSA/GL or Ennis' Punisher

WSSmith
07-13-2008, 05:33 PM
Yea Ellis/ Granov is good Iron Man #1 was one of the best first issues i've ever read a 10! I also like Bruce Jones Hulk alot and World War Hulk even if the ending wasn't what i hoped it would be.

Johns/ Frank 's work on Action Comics. I ve read Action for years and years it has not been this good since like when Curt Swan was around. After all Superman needs to change something, most writers change stuff with everyone but Supes. Morrison got that with ALL STAR SUPERMAN down.

Brubaker/ Fraction / Aja on Iron Fist damn good. Iron Fist and Power Man used to be some of the best written comics, heroes that aren't tough enough to drop kick a planet can get into all kinda a predicaments!

Walt Simonson's ORION was pretty killer too.

Nick Kerklaan
07-14-2008, 02:25 AM
Cool, thanks for the reccomendations, guys. I probably will start at the beginning of both Green Lantern and Cap, I like to start at the beginning of runs anyway, but I was just hoping I might be able to save my wallet a bit of trauma. No such luck, looks like.

I can't get both right now, though. I have to get Doom Patrol and/or more Transmet. :(

Eugene Selassie
07-14-2008, 11:03 AM
Cool, thanks for the reccomendations, guys. I probably will start at the beginning of both Green Lantern and Cap, I like to start at the beginning of runs anyway, but I was just hoping I might be able to save my wallet a bit of trauma. No such luck, looks like.

I can't get both right now, though. I have to get Doom Patrol and/or more Transmet. :(

OH SHIT!

Someone said the magic words....Doom Patrol.

I am in the middle of reading the entire run. Yes, EVERY volume.

The Haney stuff. The Kuppenberg stuff. The Morrison stuff. The Arcudi stuff.

Mark Bertolini
07-14-2008, 01:00 PM
If you dig Morrison's Doom Patrol, be sure to check out The Invisibles. The most mind-blowing comic series ever. Guaranteed to leave you questioning your own existence.

Phatman
07-14-2008, 01:28 PM
Bruce Jones run on Hulk. Gave the true hulk back to the fans for a while. He was also able to make it feel classic in the sense of Jekyll and Hyde in mood and style. A lot has to be said of the perfect teaming of JRJR and his colorists as well. Sadly it went south again.

Great one LGM----excellent work.

KHudd
07-14-2008, 01:30 PM
I have a question for all of you . What makes these comics you brought up so good .

Eugene Selassie
07-14-2008, 01:49 PM
Ellis/Granov Iron Man....

1st time regular series Iron Man had been handled correctly since...since Kurt Busiek was on the book.

High technology, corporate espionage, great art and the armor looked SLEEK for the first time since....well, the Busiek/ Chen run.

Nick Kerklaan
07-14-2008, 02:46 PM
If you dig Morrison's Doom Patrol, be sure to check out The Invisibles. The most mind-blowing comic series ever. Guaranteed to leave you questioning your own existence.
Actually, the reason I want to check out Doom Patrol is that I recently finished The Invisibles.

It was good, if a bit uneven. Sometimes it seems like Morrison lets his torrent of "Brilliant Ideas" get in the way of actually telling, you know, a good story.

Eugene Selassie
07-14-2008, 03:00 PM
Actually, the reason I want to check out Doom Patrol is that I recently finished The Invisibles.

It was good, if a bit uneven. Sometimes it seems like Morrison lets his torrent of "Brilliant Ideas" get in the way of actually telling, you know, a good story.

Though I'm normally "In Morrison I Trust", I COMPLETELY agree...

Final Crisis is a testament of this.

Nick Kerklaan
07-14-2008, 03:05 PM
Actually, I'm really liking Final Crisis right now. Other than sometimes seeming like he's trying to cram in too much and thus not taking the time he maybe should on certain things, it seems relatively free of what I feel is Morrison's biggest weakness - getting in his own way.

Eugene Selassie
07-14-2008, 03:09 PM
Actually, I'm really liking Final Crisis right now. Other than sometimes seeming like he's trying to cram in too much and thus not taking the time he maybe should on certain things, it seems relatively free of what I feel is Morrison's biggest weakness - getting in his own way.
Really?

Many say that about his New X-Men run. Yet I find that his best mainstream work to date.

Nick Kerklaan
07-14-2008, 03:12 PM
Haven't read New X-Men yet, but I found that to be the case with parts (mostly the last two volumes) of The Invisibles, Arkham Asylum and and the two or so volumes I read of his JLA.

Really, I just wish he would reign himself in a little more. My friend maybe put it best - "There's no denying his appeal, but he's a freight train; somebody has to put on the brakes sometimes."

Eugene Selassie
07-14-2008, 03:22 PM
Haven't read New X-Men yet, but I found that to be the case with parts (mostly the last two volumes) of The Invisibles, Arkham Asylum and and the two or so volumes I read of his JLA.

Really, I just wish he would reign himself in a little more. My friend maybe put it best - "There's no denying his appeal, but he's a freight train; somebody has to put on the brakes sometimes."

I concur.

The only thing that got me about his JLA that it got to be like Michael Bay movies.

You HAD to have big universe threatening villains to justify the Big 7 being together.

My problems with that...

1.) Whenever a non big 7 Leaguer guest starred, it added nothing to the story.
"Whats the big deal about Steel, The Atom, Green Arrow??? We've got the big 7."

2.) Every villain next arc had to top the last. It was escalation to a point of no return.

3.) New characters didn't get a chance to shine. Tomorrow Woman was a great idea and I LOVED Aztek. But Aztek's series couldve lasted longer and he might not have died in WW3 if his fan base was big enough. I.E. more people from League bought his book.

4.) Lack of character interaction. I understand his mentality...The Leaguers all have their own book, save the drama for their own books.
BUT GUESS WHAT? That takes away any real way we can connect to these characters. You've made them the Gods that all Marvel fans complain to DC about being unrelatable and such.

Eugene Selassie
07-14-2008, 03:30 PM
I found his X-men was a breath of fresh air compared to his JLA.

Great inter-character drama.

In fact THE ONLY writer to make me care about Cyclops and Jean Grey.

Nick Kerklaan
07-14-2008, 03:32 PM
I think it's kind of telling that I liked Waid's fill-in stories for that JLA run better than any of Grant's stuff.

I was all like, "Finally! Grant's doing some crazy shit, but I actually sort of care!" and then discovered it was Waid. And felt sad.

But too much dwelling on the negative! Final Crisis = yay!

Eugene Selassie
07-14-2008, 03:46 PM
Mark Waid= Best writer to ever write JLA

Nick Kerklaan
07-14-2008, 03:54 PM
Which reminds me, and to get slightly back on topic, a book from this decade that should be considered, if not a classic, at least "really fucking good", is Mark Waid's Empire. Definitely the best "villain story" I've ever read.

Eugene Selassie
07-14-2008, 03:56 PM
Which reminds me, and to get slightly back on topic, a book from this decade that should be considered, if not a classic, at least "really fucking good", is Mark Waid's Empire. Definitely the best "villain story" I've ever read.

GREAT STUFF.

Shockrockets by Busiek as well.

Nick Kerklaan
07-14-2008, 04:19 PM
I'll have to check that out. Love love love Busiek.

It's too bad Trinity hasn't been particularly interesting so far.

Eugene Selassie
07-14-2008, 04:33 PM
I'll have to check that out. Love love love Busiek.

It's too bad Trinity hasn't been particularly interesting so far.

I want to adopt the Busiek/Chen Iron Man run.
:har:

Nick Kerklaan
07-14-2008, 04:48 PM
Speaking of Iron Man, I'm really liking the new series so far. Fraction's playing with a lot of fun ideas, and the character of Tony Stark really comes across well.

This is literally the first Iron Man comic I've ever read, so whether or not it fits with what's gone before isn't really a concern to me. It's just a really good read.

Eugene Selassie
07-14-2008, 05:02 PM
Speaking of Iron Man, I'm really liking the new series so far. Fraction's playing with a lot of fun ideas, and the character of Tony Stark really comes across well.

This is literally the first Iron Man comic I've ever read, so whether or not it fits with what's gone before isn't really a concern to me. It's just a really good read.

Its ok...

I just think that it is not doing enough to separate it from Director of SHIELD.

Iron Man is my fav character, and not even I can justify this new series.

Another thing, Tony and Pepper really feel like their 1967 counterparts in the book. I don't mind retro, but there was ALOT of character development which made the characters more 3 dimensional over the last 10 years that has been conveniently forgotten in Iron Man.

Like I said...the ONLY writers that have handled Iron Man correctly since 2000...

Busiek
Ellis
Casey
Gage

Mark Bertolini
07-14-2008, 07:41 PM
Its ok...

I just think that it is not doing enough to separate it from Director of SHIELD.

Iron Man is my fav character, and not even I can justify this new series.

Another thing, Tony and Pepper really feel like their 1967 counterparts in the book. I don't mind retro, but there was ALOT of character development which made the characters more 3 dimensional over the last 10 years that has been conveniently forgotten in Iron Man.

Like I said...the ONLY writers that have handled Iron Man correctly since 2000...

Busiek
Ellis
Casey
Gage



What, not Bendis?....... :har:

Nick Kerklaan
07-15-2008, 04:57 AM
Its ok...

I just think that it is not doing enough to separate it from Director of SHIELD.

Iron Man is my fav character, and not even I can justify this new series.

Another thing, Tony and Pepper really feel like their 1967 counterparts in the book. I don't mind retro, but there was ALOT of character development which made the characters more 3 dimensional over the last 10 years that has been conveniently forgotten in Iron Man.

Like I said...the ONLY writers that have handled Iron Man correctly since 2000...

Busiek
Ellis
Casey
Gage

What's "handling a character correctly", though? It seems like a lot of people are more hung up on how "true to the characters" any particular Big Two book is, as opposed to whether it's just a good comic or not. The truth is, the characters aren't really characters. They're just properties. Properties that have gone through a revolving door of creative teams over decades. If someone wants to tell a story with a property that maybe doesn't quite fit exactly with what's gone before, why the hell not? Unless it completely changes the feel and point of the character, it's still valid. And the old stuff will always be there.

In my opinion, runs should be judged more on their own merits than as "part of a whole". Even if they essentially are parts of a whole, the way the system is set up almost dicates that the various parts are never going to completely gel into a satisfying whole. No two creative teams are going to approach a property exactly the same way, so why not just take each creative team's individual contribution for what it is on its own?

Eugene Selassie
07-15-2008, 11:16 AM
What's "handling a character correctly", though? It seems like a lot of people are more hung up on how "true to the characters" any particular Big Two book is, as opposed to whether it's just a good comic or not. The truth is, the characters aren't really characters. They're just properties. Properties that have gone through a revolving door of creative teams over decades. If someone wants to tell a story with a property that maybe doesn't quite fit exactly with what's gone before, why the hell not? Unless it completely changes the feel and point of the character, it's still valid. And the old stuff will always be there.

In my opinion, runs should be judged more on their own merits than as "part of a whole". Even if they essentially are parts of a whole, the way the system is set up almost dicates that the various parts are never going to completely gel into a satisfying whole. No two creative teams are going to approach a property exactly the same way, so why not just take each creative team's individual contribution for what it is on its own?

I agree with you 97% on this...

The thing is, the FEEL of Iron man just hasnt been there for a while. Like I said, Ellis brought it back, and so did Gage with his annual and Casey with his mini series.

An X-men book shouldnt feel like a JLA book. A Doom Patrol book shouldnt feel like an Eternals book. I just feel that Iron Man doesnt feel like an Iron Man book. And if I see another suicide bomber in an Iron Man book, I will yak. That trick is getting tired, ESPECIALLY in that book. Does IM have ANY OTHER VILLAINS besides Mandarin, Fin Fang Foom and the Stane family?

Mark Bertolini
07-15-2008, 11:22 AM
I tell you, Marvel really needs to capitalize on Iron Man right now. Make Tony Stark Marvel's greatest villain. Remember, he injected himself with the experimental and highly unstable Extremis virus. Sure, it gave him some nifty new abilities, but who knows what it did to his (admittedly not completely stable) psyche? Now he's taken control of SHIELD, he's eliminated a bunch of heroes who could have stood in his way (forgetting all the current Skrull bullshit), and you have the potential makings of a world-dominating bad guy. Iron Man could rival Doom for top spot, I shit you not.
I would pay large volumes of hard-earned money for something like this.

PIMPZILLA
07-19-2008, 09:24 PM
Books to be talked about in 20 years..
-The Boys
-Y:The Last Man
-Justice(anything by Alex Ross really)
-New Frontier
-Wanted
-All-star Batman and Robin The Boy Wonder(if you say no. Ask yourself this. Won't it always be your example of incredible lateness on a book?)
-Ultimate Hulk Vs. Wolverine(see above)
-One More Day(this decades Clone Saga. People'll be talking. It won't be good things though)

Examples of shining monthly titles
-The Hush Story
-Death of Captain America
-Messiah Complex
-Justice League( for #11 alone it deserves this)
-Young Avengers
-Brubaker/Bendis/Maleev Daredevil(all three runs)



Think about it.

Raven
07-19-2008, 09:37 PM
Books to be talked about in 20 years..
-The Boys
-Y:The Last Man
-Justice(anything by Alex Ross really)
-New Frontier
-Wanted




Think about it.


How can you even put shit like Wanted next to those other books???

Phatman
07-19-2008, 11:02 PM
I think one thing has been proven by this thread---Raven's opinion on comics is shared by nobody at all. You have five pages of examples of solid work that will be remembered in the year's to come. Your negative portrayal of the comics of this decade is not educated or backed by any legitimate points of criticism---your last comment is a clear example.

buhe
07-20-2008, 12:04 AM
-One More Day(this decades Clone Saga. People'll be talking. It won't be good things though)

It's so bad that it's like a stain that will never go away! :blink:

To me this has been one serious ego trip for Joe who obviously wanted to be part of comic book history, with him being the most noticeable, but in the worst way which I doubt was part of his plan.

http://www.comicmonsters.com/CMpromobanner.gif
http://www.comicmonsters.com/

Raven
07-20-2008, 01:57 AM
I think one thing has been proven by this thread---Raven's opinion on comics is shared by nobody at all. You have five pages of examples of solid work that will be remembered in the year's to come. Your negative portrayal of the comics of this decade is not educated or backed by any legitimate points of criticism---your last comment is a clear example.

What the hell are you talking about??? Are you high or something?
All I said was Wanted no where near as good as all the other books he listed in his post. It is only going to be remembered as that comic that was made into a movie. It had already been forgotten before the movie was even released! It is insulting to even compare Millar's work to someone like Brubaker.

I haven't said anything else negative at all in this thread, you are obviously easily confused or something. Hell I even agree with your last posted list of comics, most of them are great, especially Y.

But Millar is to writing what Liefeld is to art.

Phatman
07-20-2008, 02:29 AM
What the hell are you talking about??? Are you high or something?
All I said was Wanted no where near as good as all the other books he listed in his post. It is only going to be remembered as that comic that was made into a movie. It had already been forgotten before the movie was even released! It is insulting to even compare Millar's work to someone like Brubaker.

I haven't said anything else negative at all in this thread, you are obviously easily confused or something. Hell I even agree with your last posted list of comics, most of them are great, especially Y.

But Millar is to writing what Liefeld is to art.



I am not sure if there has really been any groundbreaking work the last decade, if anything it seems as if the last 8 years at Marvel and DC were simply attempts return to the pre-90's success of the "status quo" and "crossover events".

But outside of Marvel and DC, I can think of a few groundbreaking works; Mouse Guard and Pride of Baghdad.
Anyone else?

The bold letters would be the point---you've been completely disproven in your own thread on your assertion.

Phatman
07-20-2008, 02:30 AM
But Millar is to writing what Liefeld is to art.

Not really.

Nick Kerklaan
07-20-2008, 02:36 AM
I was wrong, this didn't turn into yet another "Marvel and DC suck now!"" thread, it turned into yet another "Millar is the worst writer EVER!" thread.

ponyrl
07-20-2008, 04:17 AM
Someone close this so I can get the last word! (always wanted to have a last word thread closed of my own).

It's words 'n' pictures people. I'll argue all day in a shop about it (and have) but it was person to person.

Which made it more fun.

Ever argue with someone who HASN'T read comics before 2001?

It's like speaking spanish f*cking to a Klingon!

Nick Kerklaan
07-20-2008, 04:29 AM
In all fairness, this particular thread has been mostly a positive, constructive discussion.

PIMPZILLA
07-20-2008, 09:08 AM
How can you even put shit like Wanted next to those other books???
What!? Wanted was excellent. It put you in this world where you didn't have to follow rules, could do whatever you wanted, and didn't need self-control. That's where it was appealing. Plus, It had some of the best lines and THE BEST opening panel in all of comicdom.

PIMPZILLA
07-20-2008, 09:11 AM
Not really.

Agreed. His current work is shaping up to be some of the best work to date. Old Man Logan is one of the best, if not the best, Wolverine story ever. 1985 is pretty good, interesting concept, and his F4 run brings it back to the over-the-top-high-adventure-zaniness of the Lee/Kirby era.

Raven
07-20-2008, 11:46 AM
The bold letters would be the point---you've been completely disproven in your own thread on your assertion.

Except I wasn't trying to prove a point on anything, I was simply asking a question.

What books would you consider groundbreaking in the last eight years? You can cut and paste threads all you want, I haven't really said anything.

Raven
07-20-2008, 11:46 AM
What!? Wanted was excellent. It put you in this world where you didn't have to follow rules, could do whatever you wanted, and didn't need self-control. That's where it was appealing. Plus, It had some of the best lines and THE BEST opening panel in all of comicdom.

It was a parody of the DC villains starring Eminem.

Not quite Sandman.

kdmelrose
07-20-2008, 11:53 AM
... and THE BEST opening panel in all of comicdom.

:blink:

Chuck Palahniuk begs to differ.

RandallFlagg
07-20-2008, 11:58 AM
:blink:

Chuck Palahniuk begs to differ.
could you explain please?

kdmelrose
07-20-2008, 12:01 PM
The opening scene of Issue 1 -- including the pointed reference to IKEA -- reads like a discarded early draft of Fight Club.

The second scene ... well, don't get me started on that.

RandallFlagg
07-20-2008, 12:04 PM
Ok, thanks. I didn't know that. :)

Eugene Selassie
07-20-2008, 12:09 PM
How can you even put shit like Wanted next to those other books???
I think I'm inclined to agree.

Eugene Selassie
07-20-2008, 12:12 PM
Not really.
Um, yes really.
:har:

Eugene Selassie
07-20-2008, 12:14 PM
Ever argue with someone who HASN'T read comics before 2001?

It's like speaking spanish f*cking to a Klingon!

LOL. The majority of people at my LCS

They either just started reading with the Didio/Quesada regimes, or they STOPPED reading then.

Its hard only being able to discuss A specific or B specific era of comics.

Eugene Selassie
07-20-2008, 12:27 PM
Agreed. His current work is shaping up to be some of the best work to date. Old Man Logan is one of the best, if not the best, Wolverine story ever. 1985 is pretty good, interesting concept, and his F4 run brings it back to the over-the-top-high-adventure-zaniness of the Lee/Kirby era.

I think you're putting Old Man Logan on an as yet undeserved pedestal...the story isnt even done and your calling it the best???

But FF, methinks you are in the minority. Every person I've spoken with, post I've seen, review I've read states that this run is not that great. I tried the first 3 issues and didn't care to read the rest. That book hasnt been great since Waid was on it, but at least McDuffie's stuff was pretty entertaining.

Raven
07-20-2008, 12:41 PM
I wasn't saying Marvel and DC haven't put out good books, but stuff like Huston's Moon Knight wasn't groundbreaking, it was just good, it reestablished the character, but that isn't quite the same as a brand new piece of work. Geoff Johns probably had the best run ever on Green Lantern, but it wasn't anything we hadn't seen before, other than it didn't suck as bad as some of the 90's GL stuff.

Eugene Selassie
07-20-2008, 01:00 PM
I wasn't saying Marvel and DC haven't put out good books, but stuff like Huston's Moon Knight wasn't groundbreaking, it was just good, it reestablished the character, but that isn't quite the same as a brand new piece of work. Geoff Johns probably had the best run ever on Green Lantern, but it wasn't anything we hadn't seen before, other than it didn't suck as bad as some of the 90's GL stuff.

Well the 80s and 90s as a whole didn't show us much, if any quality Green Lantern stuff.

Mark Bertolini
07-20-2008, 01:17 PM
I think that if Millar's going to be remembered for something, it should be for Chosen. That was an awesome book, I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it. Fantastic art by Peter Gross (Lucifer).

Also, check out Millar's The Unfunnies. The most disturbing comic book ever created, and also one of the funniest.

Calloway
07-20-2008, 01:22 PM
Did anyone mention the early deadpools with Ed McGuiness? Funniest mainstream comics I've ever read.

PIMPZILLA
07-20-2008, 01:45 PM
I think you're putting Old Man Logan on an as yet undeserved pedestal...the story isnt even done and your calling it the best???

But FF, methinks you are in the minority. Every person I've spoken with, post I've seen, review I've read states that this run is not that great. I tried the first 3 issues and didn't care to read the rest. That book hasnt been great since Waid was on it, but at least McDuffie's stuff was pretty entertaining.

I enjoyed the first issue so much that if the rest of the story[Old Man Logan] is half as good, it'll be the best I've read. It's really difficult to get people to care about Logan, and Millar has succeeded in that.

Eugene Selassie
07-20-2008, 01:48 PM
I enjoyed the first issue so much that if the rest of the story[Old Man Logan] is half as good, it'll be the best I've read. It's really difficult to get people to care about Logan, and Millar has succeeded in that.

To each their own, but I think the story should be completed first before going there.

I still have yet to see a writer consistently get Wolverine right since Morrison on New X-men and Rucka on Wolverine.

ronin7
07-20-2008, 08:02 PM
That's your opinion Eugene. I found Grant Morrison's character rape of the X-Men disgusting. Especially his portrayal of Wolverine. And don't get me started on Greg Rucka's incest driven drivel.

Raven
07-21-2008, 08:52 AM
I enjoyed the first issue so much that if the rest of the story[Old Man Logan] is half as good, it'll be the best I've read. It's really difficult to get people to care about Logan, and Millar has succeeded in that.

Yeah, by making him Clint Eastwood. . .

PIMPZILLA
07-21-2008, 06:32 PM
Yeah, by making him Clint Eastwood. . .

exactly...

Mr.Musgrave
07-21-2008, 06:32 PM
Yeah, by making him Clint Eastwood. . .


Which is pretty much who he's always been. Just...y'know...more one dimensional.

Eugene Selassie
07-21-2008, 06:46 PM
Which is pretty much who he's always been. Just...y'know...more one dimensional.

Dammit...STOP SAYING STUFF THAT MAKES SENSE MUSGRAVE!!!!

Buckyrig
07-21-2008, 08:14 PM
In all fairness, this particular thread has been mostly a positive, constructive discussion.

Quiet, schmuck. :man:

Buckyrig
07-21-2008, 08:17 PM
I think that if Millar's going to be remembered for something, it should be for Chosen. That was an awesome book, I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it. Fantastic art by Peter Gross (Lucifer).

I'd have liked Chosen better if it didn't have the ending it had. Made the whole thing seem like a stunt to me.

I liked Authority and Ultimate X-Men more.

wisper
07-21-2008, 09:30 PM
DWP...a classic book/idea/fromat :)

WSSmith
07-21-2008, 10:52 PM
I have enjoyed everything Millar has done along with Morrison, Loeb, Bendis, Ellis on down the list. I just think at times the comic book writer, because of the monthly deadlines and cookie cutter business practices. They are not given as much room to make adjustments and evolve. Sometimes as anyone who has worked on deadlines knows you fall back on what you know. A good fishing spot is a good fishing spot no reason to change if the fish are still jumping on the line. They have moved forward to a point that it is possibly inconvenient to take risks other artististic types are able to take. Stan Lee was very consistent with his OHenry style story telling. He then evolved to use more balanced supporting casts in a hero/character driven story. Something he merely copied from Leone and Kurosawa. Balance is the key in any story when its out of whack the story is dead. Stan Lee and Denny O'Neill, I believe perfected this type of story followed by Wolfman, Augustyn, and many others.

I know this is an out of place opinion, but I'm the guy who loves it all. I've been a comic fan since I learned to read, and probably the least critical person of the business. I learn something from every single comic.

"Real seriousness in regards to writing is one of two absolute neccessities. The other, unfortunately is talent." - E. Hemingway

Nick Kerklaan
07-22-2008, 03:18 AM
Quiet, schmuck. :man:

Sorry. What I meant to say was:

THIS THREAD IS A SACK OF SHIT! FUCK ALL Y'ALL!!!!!!

Better?

Raven
07-22-2008, 07:56 AM
I have enjoyed everything Millar has done along with Morrison, Loeb, Bendis, Ellis on down the list. I just think at times the comic book writer, because of the monthly deadlines and cookie cutter business practices. They are not given as much room to make adjustments and evolve. Sometimes as anyone who has worked on deadlines knows you fall back on what you know. A good fishing spot is a good fishing spot no reason to change if the fish are still jumping on the line. They have moved forward to a point that it is possibly inconvenient to take risks other artististic types are able to take.


Millar's bad because he is oppressed by the system? For real?

Then how is Ellis so good?

WSSmith
07-22-2008, 09:12 AM
Millar's bad because he is oppressed by the system? For real?

Then how is Ellis so good?
I don't think he is better, I'd say thats just your preference. Like some dig Hemingway some like Faulkner. It may be different levels of talent or just different goals as writers. I enjoy both equally, but no writer is universally loved. Every writer has a different audience.

Raven
07-22-2008, 10:27 AM
I don't think he is better, I'd say thats just your preference. Like some dig Hemingway some like Faulkner. It may be different levels of talent or just different goals as writers. I enjoy both equally, but no writer is universally loved. Every writer has a different audience.

Yes, it is THE SYSTEM. All bad writers have only THE SYSTEM to blame. . .

But seriously, saying you have a different audience still doesn't excuse bad writing. Howard Stern has an "audience" but I wouldn't agree that they have any taste or know what "class" is.

WSSmith
07-22-2008, 10:38 AM
Yes, it is THE SYSTEM. All bad writers have only THE SYSTEM to blame. . .

But seriously, saying you have a different audience still doesn't excuse bad writing. Howard Stern has an "audience" but I wouldn't agree that they have any taste or know what "class" is.


Im not a Howard Stern fan, but the only question i'd have is does he make you laugh. Does he do his job well enough to please the majority. I don't think the system is bad as much as it asks for similar work. The system wants to use whats worked. Its adverse to change. We need outside the box thinking to be groundbreaking and thats not what DC and Marvel specialize in thats more Avatar and Top Shelf.

Personally I think being classless and lowbrow entertainment tend to break more ground than the more highbrow stuff. I believe in pushing boundaries and that is something frowned upon in todays PC world.
Something Millar and Ellis excel at is not being PC.

ronin7
07-22-2008, 06:19 PM
Im not a Howard Stern fan, but the only question i'd have is does he make you laugh. Does he do his job well enough to please the majority. I don't think the system is bad as much as it asks for similar work. The system wants to use whats worked. Its adverse to change. We need outside the box thinking to be groundbreaking and thats not what DC and Marvel specialize in thats more Avatar and Top Shelf.

Personally I think being classless and lowbrow entertainment tend to break more ground than the more highbrow stuff. I believe in pushing boundaries and that is something frowned upon in todays PC world.
Something Millar and Ellis excel at is not being PC.

Um, it's kind of funny to me that you say this. Because to me it's the same people who complain about how the world is PC that ENFORCES the PC mindset.

yellowphantom
07-22-2008, 11:18 PM
...yikes...the shit flying everywhere now...better get my post in before this sucker is shut down....

BLACK HOLE: CHARLES BURNS

BOX OFFICE POISON :ALEX ROBINSON

NEW FRONTIER: DARWYN COOKE

CAPTAIN AMERICA : BRUBAKER

WALKING DEAD : KIRKMAN (AND IVINCIBLE TOO)

WSSmith
07-23-2008, 09:22 AM
Um, it's kind of funny to me that you say this. Because to me it's the same people who complain about how the world is PC that ENFORCES the PC mindset.


First that is a silly statement, just plain silly. Doesn't make sense at all! Maybe to you, but not me.

Second I didnt complain about anything, just stating alot of the well reported media complaints of Ellis and Millar's work which I enjoy. Have you not seen the critics and reviews of Millar's The Chosen/UnFunnies/ Wanted and Ellis's new novel, some thought they went to far.

Finally writing and writers are judged by how long they are remembered and their sales not by critics or opinions.

I was not trying to start an argument either. I'm one of DC and Marvel's biggest fan, along with comics in general.

Raven
07-23-2008, 10:51 AM
First that is a silly statement, just plain silly. Doesn't make sense at all! Maybe to you, but not me.

Second I didnt complain about anything, just stating alot of the well reported media complaints of Ellis and Millar's work which I enjoy. Have you not seen the critics and reviews of Millar's The Chosen/UnFunnies/ Wanted and Ellis's new novel, some thought they went to far.

Finally writing and writers are judged by how long they are remembered and their sales not by critics or opinions.

I was not trying to start an argument either. I'm one of DC and Marvel's biggest fan, along with comics in general.

The difference between the two is this though: No one complains about Ellis's writing. They may not like his stories, but the man has a craftmanship and style that is unique to him.

Millar writes like a 15 year old junkie.

KHudd
07-23-2008, 11:43 AM
Everyone is talking about y the last man , I have not read a single issue is it good ?

Raven
07-23-2008, 01:44 PM
Everyone is talking about y the last man , I have not read a single issue is it good ?

It's really good.
So is Ex Machina.

Nick Kerklaan
07-23-2008, 02:22 PM
Ex Machina began great, and then started dragging. Still interesting, but it didn't really seem to be going anywhere. Haven't read it in awhile, interested in seeing where its ended up once I get through all the other shit I have to read.

Eugene Selassie
07-23-2008, 03:18 PM
Ex Machina began great, and then started dragging. Still interesting, but it didn't really seem to be going anywhere. Haven't read it in awhile, interested in seeing where its ended up once I get through all the other shit I have to read.

Agreed.

BUY EVERY COMIC BRIAN K. VAUGHN HAS WRITTEN...RIGHT NOW!!!!

:har:

Ultimate X-men, Runaways, Ex Machina, Y The Last Man, Dr Strange:The Oath, etc...

Mark Bertolini
07-23-2008, 03:36 PM
Y: The Last Man is a fantastic comic book series. Seriously, do yourself a favour and pick up the first couple of TPBs, you won't regret it.

Raven
07-24-2008, 09:54 AM
Agreed.

BUY EVERY COMIC BRIAN K. VAUGHN HAS WRITTEN...RIGHT NOW!!!!

:har:

Ultimate X-men, Runaways, Ex Machina, Y The Last Man, Dr Strange:The Oath, etc...

I wouldn't say everything.

Don't read Ultimate X-Men, not because it isn't good, but because supporting that book is a bad idea. Instead, buy two copies of Pride Of Baghdad.

Paul Sanderson
07-24-2008, 07:21 PM
I read the first and second Y The Last Man trades fairly recently, and they were very good, I have to agree with the consensus here.

ronin7
07-24-2008, 08:39 PM
First that is a silly statement, just plain silly. Doesn't make sense at all! Maybe to you, but not me.

Second I didnt complain about anything, just stating alot of the well reported media complaints of Ellis and Millar's work which I enjoy. Have you not seen the critics and reviews of Millar's The Chosen/UnFunnies/ Wanted and Ellis's new novel, some thought they went to far.

Finally writing and writers are judged by how long they are remembered and their sales not by critics or opinions.

I was not trying to start an argument either. I'm one of DC and Marvel's biggest fan, along with comics in general.


It does make sense because what I am saying is that while some people complain about others trying to enforce the conservative mind set. There are others who complain about the people who try to enforce the counter culture mind set. It's my pointing out the Catch 22 argument. As to Millar and Ellis works. I think they are both equally talented at what they do. Ellis is daft Sci-Fiction writer. While Millar is a great political writer who loves pissing people off.

Mr.Musgrave
07-25-2008, 12:27 AM
Did......did you....DIDI YOU JUST DISS CLINT EASTWOOD?! :huh:

Mus, man, tha fuck you smokin' man. :(

He's one of my favorite actors, man. :(

S'wrong with you, man.

You ain't right, man. *sniff*, you just ain't right.

DON'T DISS ON THE EASTWOOD! :man:

Ya needs GEE-ZUSS!



How exactly did I diss on Eastwood?

ponyrl
07-25-2008, 12:57 AM
Oh, wait, nevermind. Brain freeze, my mind juxaposed something while I was reading your original post, then fixed itself when I re-read it.

my bad.
:whistlin:

Mr.Musgrave
07-25-2008, 01:51 AM
Eastwood would have never made a mistake like that....

Calloway
07-25-2008, 02:10 AM
It's true.

ponyrl
07-25-2008, 03:49 AM
*crawls away* :(

Raven
07-25-2008, 09:23 AM
It does make sense because what I am saying is that while some people complain about others trying to enforce the conservative mind set. There are others who complain about the people who try to enforce the counter culture mind set. It's my pointing out the Catch 22 argument. As to Millar and Ellis works. I think they are both equally talented at what they do. Ellis is daft Sci-Fiction writer. While Millar is a great political writer who loves pissing people off.

To be political, you have to take a stand on something and make a statement counter to what others might be saying.

Just saying offensive shit isn't political.

captainarian
07-31-2008, 04:21 AM
invincible.
spawn
savagedragon.

kingdom come.
y the last man.
daredevil.

Eugene Selassie
08-01-2008, 02:20 PM
To be political, you have to take a stand on something and make a statement counter to what others might be saying.

Just saying offensive shit isn't political.

LMFAO!!!