INVINCIBLE by JIM LEE!!!

[Rob Norton]

over on NEWSARAMA there is a pic of a new cover for an upcoming issue of INVINCIBLE drawn by Jim Lee. apparently ol Mark Grayson is getting a new costume. i myself thought the old one was fine, and this new one looks a BIT much like nightwing. but..thats one image with jim lee drawing it. im sure ottley will be making it look kick ass.

im at work and limited on what i can do with this computer..hence me not leaving a link or whatever. but.. just go look. someone needs to post up that image here so's all can see it.

rob

[Mwynn]

http://www.newsarama.com/ImageComics/Invincible/51/lee_invin.jpg

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=136298

[Mike225]

I like the old one better.

[exilednight]

Looks like nightwing and robin.

[Nick Pitarra]

It looks like its just colored different.

~nick

[Justice41]

Yuck!
http://www.sequart.com/news/graphics/InfiniteCrisis5lee.jpg

[hellblazer72]

i think jim lee needs to quit doing pin ups and covers for other people and put out a damn issue of a book that's already late because he decides to do 2 monthly series after claiming he's not a monthly guy

[Great Scott]

Wya's better than Lee any day.

[hannu]

I agree.

[Moonrider]

It's not like he's really trying there. That Invincible pic looks as if it's something Lee did for like less than five minutes.

Still, Wya's art is better suited for this book than his.

[Rob Norton]

Wya's better than Lee any day.


thats a stretch.....


rob

[BIGROD]

thats a stretch.....


rob

Nope, opinion.

[Rob Norton]

Nope, opinion.


oh, well then. let me rephrase. in MY opinion its a huge stretch to say that Wya is better than Lee "any day".
im very positive on Wya. guys spectacular. there isnt one image of invincible that Wya has done that isnt better than this one by Lee. but to say hes better than Lee when considering the entierty of the work the both of the artists... its a stretch. but yes...its an opinion. yay for free thinking!!!

rob

[Mr.Musgrave]

Just because someone has drawn more, that doesn't make them a better artist. That doesn't even make sense. Lee's been using the same five poses and two facial expressions since the early 90's. He hasn't advanced as an artist at all. That's not the sign of a superior artist.

[Rob Norton]

Just because someone has drawn more, that doesn't make them a better artist. That doesn't even make sense. Lee's been using the same five poses and two facial expressions since the early 90's. He hasn't advanced as an artist at all. That's not the sign of a superior artist.

another good opinion...

but you are implying that im saying things i did not say. i never said "cause hes drawn MORE". no..it doesnt make sense. i didnt say that. you say lee has been using the same poses and facial expressions. i know what you are saying. i see it. in fact..i look at his old uncanny xmen stuff and it seems there are more facial expressions and the like all over there and he has maybe lost that. but when you consider that fact of yes...the sheer volume of work he has done means he has drawn more pages means hes got alot more skills than a "newer" artist. like framing panels and perspective and mood and lighting and etc etc etc...
you suggesnt he hasnt advanced as an artist at all? i disagree. he tried the heavy inked Deathblow stuff(influenced by sincitym we know) he has done stuff with watercolors tones in batman hush. hes tried different things. hes grown. but i do agree there are certain things that seems to be repeating in his work. i think Lees BEST work comes in the small in-between panels. its all the big spash page shots that get old, cause yes.. we've seen all those poses from him and everyone else over and over.

just some thoughts there..
rob

[Mr.Musgrave]

No, see, just because he has drawn more pages" that doesn't mean "hes got alot more skills." It means he's drawn more pages.

Quantity is not quality.

Experimentation isn't growing either. It's experimentation. When you get down to it, he's still using the same over-hatched gritted teeth clench-fisted style he's been using since 1991. I could start coloring my work with ketchup, but that doesn't mean I've grown.

Artistically, Wya is a far more accomplished artist. Lee's figures are weak, his expressions and storytelling is almost non-existent, he's all flash and no substance. As he's always been.

Popularity is not quality either.

[Rob Norton]

No, see, just because he has drawn more pages" that doesn't mean "hes got alot more skills." It means he's drawn more pages.

Quantity is not quality.

Experimentation isn't growing either. It's experimentation. When you get down to it, he's still using the same over-hatched gritted teeth clench-fisted style he's been using since 1991. I could start coloring my work with ketchup, but that doesn't mean I've grown.

Artistically, Wya is a far more accomplished artist. Lee's figures are weak, his expressions and storytelling is almost non-existent, he's all flash and no substance. As he's always been.

Popularity is not quality either.

well... i just disagree with the statements of "weak figures/non-existent expressions & storytelling/all flash and no substance". i dont think thats true.
i DO agree "popularity in not quality", but it can be true more often than some people would think.
im also not saying wya isnt any good. hes WAY good. but.. to be fair... he does this facial expression where someone has a half-shut eyes/mouth way off to the side in an "ooooh" shape thats getting a LITTLE old. bit its a minor thing in an overly great body of work.

rob

[Mr.Musgrave]

Well, as an artist I believe it is true. I've said that about Lee since I was a kid.

But to be fair, which is worse: Wya doing that "ooh" shape for a couple years, or Lee using that gritted teeth or no expression look for decades?

[Rob Norton]

Well, as an artist I believe it is true. I've said that about Lee since I was a kid.

But to be fair, which is worse: Wya doing that "ooh" shape for a couple years, or Lee using that gritted teeth or no expression look for decades?


ha...well...if Wya's still doing decades from now.. we will see then i guess..

[Mwynn]

http://www.lambiek.net/artists/l/lee_jim/jimlee_xmen.jpg

http://www.pulllist.com/comic/image_comics/invincible/41/cover-full.jpg

[Mike225]

I still believe the cover of X-Men #1 wasn't drawn as a cover, just a bunch of sketches cut and pasted to make a picture.

[Mwynn]

You are probably right.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/f/fa/Xmenjimlee.jpg

[Mike225]

Other than Xavier pointing in Magneto's general direction, there's no interaction with the characters.

[Mwynn]

Other than Xavier pointing in Magneto's general direction, there's no interaction with the characters.
I think he is pointing at Storm's ass.

[Mike225]

I think he is pointing at Storm's ass.That's a good theory...or he threw a rock at Colossus' head.

[kdmelrose]

http://www.newsaramablog.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10006/normal_TVG46_HeroesA_Sub.jpg

[Mike225]

Good point, Kevin.

[Phatman]

Rob:

I think your arguement is flawed. You're saying that being popular and prolific equates to quality. You can argue the merits of an artist's work based on specific criteria to try to back up your opinion, but since when does quantity equal quality in any artform? I'd argue in this case that Ryan's run on Invincible is better than any single work of Jim Lee on a wide variety of criteria. This doesn't discount Mr. Lee's career or say that he's not a very talented artist, just that his work, while commercially successful, is not as strong as a lot of other artists who aren't as popular or prolific in the industry. In the end, I doubt he cares what we or any other critics think as long as customers and publishers enjoy and support his work. However, that isn't the end goal of many artists who strive to be and do more with their talent-not to mention experience some artistic growth and development during their career.

[heartofglitter]

Discussions like this are really jading me as an artist. I love Jim Lee's work, always have. I don't see what everyone is talking about when they talk about him recycling poses, and facial expressions. The thing is, Lee basically does Superhero stuff; and to be honest the genre doesn't really leave much room for artistic expression. It is all gritted-teeth, and big fists.
I guess I'll make a comparison, Michael Turner. Now in my opinion Turner's work hasn't changed in years, and his faces never change, and his anatomy sucks.
I mean at least Jim Lee knows about anatomy, even if his style hasn't really changed. (Also, another reason I look up to Lee is that at least he's willing to play with different media.)

Eh, any way. I guess anything I say is going to sound like a rant, so let me say this. When someone says that an artist sucks, or their quality sucks, it's your opinion. And just because you believe it is so, doesn't mean it is true. (In most cases. lol.) :slap:

[kdmelrose]

So, criticism of Jim Lee is jading to you as an artist, but criticism of Michael Turner isn't ...

:p

[Rob Norton]

Rob:

I think your arguement is flawed. You're saying that being popular and prolific equates to quality. You can argue the merits of an artist's work based on specific criteria to try to back up your opinion, but since when does quantity equal quality in any artform? I'd argue in this case that Ryan's run on Invincible is better than any single work of Jim Lee on a wide variety of criteria. This doesn't discount Mr. Lee's career or say that he's not a very talented artist, just that his work, while commercially successful, is not as strong as a lot of other artists who aren't as popular or prolific in the industry. In the end, I doubt he cares what we or any other critics think as long as customers and publishers enjoy and support his work. However, that isn't the end goal of many artists who strive to be and do more with their talent-not to mention experience some artistic growth and development during their career.

yeah..i GET what you guys are saying. popular and prolific doesnt immediatly mean quality. but i think i does MORE times that it does not. why cant the artists working on big books be recongnized as being GOOD? speaking of comics only.. if an artist is consistently selling, being hired by everyone, working in the industry for decades, i really dont think that all those thousands (millions) of people are just stupid and blind and buying something that isnt good. SOMEtimes that happens. yes..i totally know that. i just dont think its the case with jim lee.
and we all have different tastes. you would say that ryans invincible run is better that ANY one of jim lees works? thats your opinion, but i find that..again.. a huge stretch. ryan IS doing artwork that is new and fresh and interesting, as opposed to work from Lee which carries a style and feel any long term fan would describe as "seen it".
but, being fair again, part of the reason we are all so ga-ga over invincible is the story as much as the art.. but thats getting into something else entierly. so..speaking artistically... like..the images posted above. i dont see anything wrong with the invincible cover, but i think the Jim Lee XMEN cover kicks its ass all over the place. it looks cut and paste cause it was broken down into 4 different images so's to be that whole variant cover bullshit for that issue, but.. thats why its broken up.
but its one of my favorite xmen images ever. kicks ass.

rob

[Justice41]

No, see, just because he has drawn more pages" that doesn't mean "hes got alot more skills." It means he's drawn more pages.

Quantity is not quality.

Experimentation isn't growing either. It's experimentation. When you get down to it, he's still using the same over-hatched gritted teeth clench-fisted style he's been using since 1991. I could start coloring my work with ketchup, but that doesn't mean I've grown.

Artistically, Wya is a far more accomplished artist. Lee's figures are weak, his expressions and storytelling is almost non-existent, he's all flash and no substance. As he's always been.

Popularity is not quality either.
Quoted for truth and Accuracy. In fact when I saw this I thought to myself that Wya is a better artist than Lee, even at this early stage in his comics career.

[Mike225]

it looks cut and paste cause it was broken down into 4 different images so's to be that whole variant cover bullshit for that issue, but.. thats why its broken up.Well, yeah, I know that. I still own the two copies I bought before I realized it'd be cheaper to buy the big one. Even so, the characters on the seperate covers have no interaction with each other.

[heartofglitter]

So, criticism of Jim Lee is jading to you as an artist, but criticism of Michael Turner isn't ...

:p
I'm fine with criticism, but discovering that people I look up to are recycling their work, and taking short-cuts to produce their art is.
I've always seen comics as this fantastic medium, and it upsets me to hear people talking about how so many artists rip from others, recycle their work, etc.

[Justice41]

http://www.newsaramablog.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10006/normal_TVG46_HeroesA_Sub.jpg
big deal he copied some faces.woop dee doo.

[kdmelrose]

I wasn't celebrating that cover.

[Justice41]

I know, it was pre-emptive attack. You were pointing out his popularity, I know.

[kdmelrose]

Well, no ...

[jmassie]

thats a stretch.....


rob

Ottley can tell a story better than Lee any day of the week. I think anyway. That's the most important thing. Lee wastes pages on characters just standing there looking cool. All flash and no substance.

[Rob Norton]

Well, yeah, I know that. I still own the two copies I bought before I realized it'd be cheaper to buy the big one. Even so, the characters on the seperate covers have no interaction with each other.

well. jeez, what do you want them doing? playing cards and having a smoke and a laugh together? its an action superhero comic gatefold cover that needed to be broken up and look like a sweet action shot in each section so as to stand on its own. and they are all..kinda...charging towards magneto, who isnt looking, but.. still...that was his cover shot. cant have a single image of HIM staring at god knows what behind him can we?

rob

[jmassie]

I like the old costume better by the way.

[Rob Norton]

Ottley can tell a story better than Lee any day of the week. I think anyway. That's the most important thing. Lee wastes pages on characters just standing there looking cool. All flash and no substance.

i would say that most times, with the "wasting pages with characters standing there looking cool" could be attributed to the writer. not the artist. claremont, grant morrison, jeph loeb, frank miller... im sure thier scripts say "page 5: bad ass shot of (whoever) standing there looking strong, angry, powerful, go crazy. have fun".

kirkman doesnt write that way, so ottley doesnt need to do it that much. but if kirkman DID... ottley would be drawing that way. maybe BETTER than others, for sure.. but he would be doing it.

just a thought there..

rob

[Phatman]

why cant the artists working on big books be recongnized as being GOOD? speaking of comics only.. if an artist is consistently selling, being hired by everyone, working in the industry for decades, i really dont think that all those thousands (millions) of people are just stupid and blind and buying something that isnt good.

Why? This happens every day in every other media/entertainment outlet.

so..speaking artistically... like..the images posted above. i dont see anything wrong with the invincible cover, but i think the Jim Lee XMEN cover kicks its ass all over the place. it looks cut and paste cause it was broken down into 4 different images so's to be that whole variant cover bullshit for that issue, but.. thats why its broken up.
but its one of my favorite xmen images ever. kicks ass.

Just to show you what I'm talking about, here are several gatefold covers that illustrate the point that everybody else is trying to make to you concerning the X-men cover. They have all taken composition into account while complying with the constraints of the format-something the Lee cover completely misses the mark on.:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e120/Mossmanart/lsh100a.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e120/Mossmanart/jsa50.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e120/Mossmanart/Absolutley_Authoritative.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e120/Mossmanart/X-MenV2_CVR200a.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e120/Mossmanart/HughesAdam_wc-xm_dps_sm.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e120/Mossmanart/ExMachinaVol2TP.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e120/Mossmanart/Avengers_vs_Korvac.jpg

Now these are some guys kickin' ass!

(in order: Davis, Pacheco, Hitch, Bachalo, Hughes, Harris, and Frank are the artists)

[heartofglitter]

That's all well, and good; but how old are these works in comparison to the X-Men cover?
That X-Men cover is damn old, and of course his covers have improved since then. I think people are trying to compare apples, and oranges.

[kdmelrose]

These are probably more fair comparisons:

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/news/images/0308/batman619.jpg

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/news/images/0308/batman619b.jpg

[heartofglitter]

Thanks for that kdmelrose. I don't see the point of comparing stuff that are probably 10 years apart, that sort of defeats the point, doesn't it?

[Mr.Musgrave]

Except that they still look like completely disjointed still life drawings.

[Phatman]

Thanks for that kdmelrose. I don't see the point of comparing stuff that are probably 10 years apart, that sort of defeats the point, doesn't it?

I can pull up older stuff if that's the goal here-my point is that the cover was a poor composition (something Lee have obviously learned from). The fact is that a lot of people here applaud this piece as a great cover and it's not-it's a cut and paste job from a sketchbook with no uniformity or cohesion. You can evaluate art on the basis of it's basic elements and this cover fails to do that successfully-regardless of it's "cool" factor. This doesn't mean Jim's a bad artist or anything (I think I've mentioned he's very good)-my point was to balance Rob's arguement.

To further the point, almost every artist I put up there is older than Lee or are his contemporaries (Hitch and Bacchalo would be exceptions). The age of the work or the artist has nothing to do with bad execution.

[Rob Norton]

i REALLY do get what you are saying PHATMAN. all the images you posted are GREAT. but... alot of those are double page interiors. so it IS hard to compare to a 4PAGE gatefold cover where the whole dimensions are different to a 2 page. BUT..YES.. the xmen cover could be better... but i dont care. its simple and shows the characters well. it works. i like it.
and look at the other 2 page group shots that were posted. THOSE look much better dont they? i would say that it shows some growth as an artist, though some say he hasnt.

rob

[Mr.Musgrave]

Why would the size make a difference when we're talking about character interaction in an image. That makes no sense at all. None of the characters, even the ones standing next to each other on the same cover, look like they're part of the same scene. The new images posted have the same problem.

"Cool" also doesn't equal quality. Flash, no substance.

[Mwynn]

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/news/images/0308/batman619.jpg

This looks like colorforms.

[kdmelrose]

No, this does:

http://www.samstoybox.com/toypics/ColorformsBatman2.jpg

[Mwynn]

No, this does:

http://www.samstoybox.com/toypics/ColorformsBatman2.jpg
Is there a Jim Lee version?

[Mr.Musgrave]

Actually, they both do. If the Jim Lee figures had white outlines around them, it would totally look colorformed. How strange.

[Mwynn]

Actually, they both do. If the Jim Lee figures had white outlines around them, it would totally look colorformed. How strange.
Most of the characters in that drawing are not even the same art style.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Most of the characters in that drawing are not even the same art style.


Actually, you're right. I hadn't noticed that. And the lightsources are all over the place. I'm sure someone will claim it's because of the spotlights, despite the lack of logic on that one.

[ponyrl]

No, this does:

http://www.samstoybox.com/toypics/ColorformsBatman2.jpg
Guess the artist?

I'm courious. I know it's on the back of my mind lurking........Infantino maybe? :huh:

[Mr.Musgrave]

Aparo?

[L Jamal]

Actually, you're right. I hadn't noticed that. And the lightsources are all over the place.
it's because of the spotlights :) :p

[Justice41]

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/news/images/0308/batman619.jpg

This looks like colorforms.
Take note of the direction Robins cape is blowing. Ha.
It's either Jim Aparo or Neal Adams or Dick Giordano or Jose Luis Gonzalez Lopez who did the colorforms art.

[L Jamal]

Take note of the direction Robins cape is blowing.
Gotham City has strange wind patterns near the top of the skyscrapers cause by drafts.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Gotham City has strange wind patterns near the top of the skyscrapers cause by drafts.


Or spotlights. :nyah:

[hellblazer72]

i used to be a big fan of lee's work when he was on uncanny x-men. but it seems that around when wildcats came out that he stopped growing as an artist. he's art is stiff and lifeless. all his figures look posed. his costume designs are bad. he's out of his element now, filling a book with splash pages is not story telling, sorry jim the 90's are over. it's time to retire

[Mwynn]

The hiding of the feet on this one is pretty funny.

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/news/images/0308/batman619b.jpg

Both Poison Ivy and Killer Croc are floating.

[Ron Phillips]

Wow, Wya hasn't been on here in a while.

Anyway, having worked with and been friends with Wya I always marvel at his ability to take a simple character drawing and give it a life of its own. Subtle things, variations and expressions. It's always so fun.

I hope he'll one day be as popular as Lee, but to do that he'll need to leave Invincible, but he's the heart of the book now. The guy's a work horse and his art doesn't falter even though he keeps a near monthly schedule. I mean who in the last 5-10 years, aside from indy guys drawing their own books, have managed to put out as many consecutive issues?

Lee may be a giant of the 80's, but did he ever dedicate himself to any one series for as long? I can't answer that myself, just curious.

Regarding the cover, well it kind of fits into the flow of the series' covers, but I can't help but think there's a little Ottley in Lee's cover. Hate the color combination. But I'm a little partial to Blue and Gold.

[Justice41]

Gotham City has strange wind patterns near the top of the skyscrapers cause by drafts.
Explain the exhaust and smoke plumes then. :laugh:

[ponyrl]

Aparo?
was going to be my first guess but couldn't get the name out the back of my skull.

[shushubag]

It's just funny that the cover getting ripped here is the book that holds the record for sales.

Rip on Jim Lee all you like, I still like him. His style, yeah it never advanced, but so what. For me there is so much crappy art in comics Lee aint nothing to gawk at.

Anyways, I don't know who Wya's influences are but if I had to make a guess I'd think Jim Lee would be somewhere in there. I could be wrong but then again maybe not. Who knows, maybe Wya will jump in one day.

Anyways, yeah when you look at the cover all together it just doesn't look right but you have to know that it was part of Marvels strategy to split that up into 4 different covers so people would buy 5 issues to get them all. That's what Lee had to keep in mind. Back then his art would sell, and it did. I contributed, and I HAVE NO FUCKING SHAME!

MWahahahahahahahahahaha!

[MARK A ROBINSON]

I'm setting up a "Hater Aid" stand right here.

Stop hating on Jim Lee.

He's the best in the biz.

He's probablly one of the most stand up guys in the biz.

No need to hate.

You seen him draw up close? You'd feel ashamed of yourself for thinking otherwise.

He's got skills man. So Roin's cape is blowing in the wrong direction? Who give a flying fig...

I'm not even sure that's not a photoshopped together image done by some lackey in production who doesn't know shit from shy-o-lah about what's what. If it's a gathered image...and the styles look different- that's probablly the case.

One guy that i will defend on these boards is Jim. He's a college. AND he's done a shitload for comics in general.Think off all the things you wouldn't have without him?

Why shit talk? Without him this conversation would not be taking place? There would be no X-men maybe? There would be no Wildstorm. No AUTHORITY.No Joe Mad? No J. Scott Campbell? none of that.

There's some artist in some degree that you can trace back to Jim Lee that you know and love--- that without Jim Lee would ot be.

He's a legend.

That's why we are talking about him. Because he's awesome.

I know i might be getting testy on here- but damn dude. I know it's all about opinion...you post- yeah..."i don't like Jim Lee" period.But to keep posting just to slam him?

Time to retire?

Have you ever watched Jim draw up close? ummm...it's amazing.

His work is still pretty than 90 percent of the work out there.Stop hating and fucking draw something better then.

whew.

:slap:

M.

[hellblazer72]

wow the old draw something better line...was wondering when that would show up

[Mr.Musgrave]

I knew this thread wouldn't last long before someone brought up the fanboyist of all fanboy arguments: "You're just jealous."

Fucking. Please.

[MARK A ROBINSON]

wow the old draw something better line...was wondering when that would show up

Yup.

and then you were expecting it. Where's the beer?

;)

and i'm not somebody...I'm me..."fuckin pleasee" :rolleyes:

;)

hey Ed...I hate my icon btw...how do i change it? :blink:


M.

[Ron Phillips]

Yup.

and then you were expecting it. Where's the beer?

;)

and i'm not somebody...I'm me..."fuckin pleasee" :rolleyes:

;)

hey Ed...I hate my icon btw...how do i change it? :blink:


M.

Mark, go here: http://digitalwebbing.com/forums/profile.php?do=editavatar.

[BIGROD]

One guy that i will defend on these boards is Jim. He's a college.

No shit? In that case, how can I enroll in Jim Lee University??? :har:

[captainarian]

fuck this, i hate lee for this, ryan otley rules! he should be invincible's artist for life. what the hell?

[captainarian]

ottley ottley ottley ottley :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
in recent months ryan has become my #1 artist, and has bit jim lee down, i still love lee and he's still a god but his interfierance with invincible will not be tolerated, i have made ottley my biggest influence right now.

[kdmelrose]

fuck this, i hate lee for this, ryan otley rules! he should be invincible's artist for life. what the hell?

:blink:

[colorzoo]

ottley ottley ottley ottley :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
in recent months ryan has become my #1 artist, and has bit jim lee down, i still love lee and he's still a god but his interfierance with invincible will not be tolerated, i have made ottley my biggest influence right now.


How dare Jim Lee bully his way into that book? who does he think he is! really people, Invincible isn't the holy of holy's of comics, get over it.

[kdmelrose]

Uh ... he only drew the cover to Issue 51.

[Rob Norton]

Uh ... he only drew the cover to Issue 51.


and...the im sure the guy (Lee) was ASKED to draw the cover. hes not "interfering" like someone wants to think. besides, much as some people dont want to admit it, Lees name is a draw. it has the potential to have Jim Lee fans pick up the book and become regular readers. whats wrong with that? especially since we are all SO in love with Invincible.
and anyone that has paid attention would know that ottley and kirkman have stated before that they are HUGE fans of the early 90's image comics. that includes Jim Lee. i onle mention this cause someone was wondering/thinking that maybe ottley liked or was influenced by Lee's work.

rob

[Mwynn]

It's just funny that the cover getting ripped here is the book that holds the record for sales.


Yes because the best things are always the one that sale the most.

[Mike225]

I just realized that there were posts between my last one and the last page. Okay...

I never said I hate Lee, not at all. I like most of his stuff, I just don't like certain images he's done. I didn't make the comment about the X-Men cover to sway opinions, I was just stating what I believe to be true. The sketches look fine, it's the complete composition that I have a problem with.

Oh, and he's shit at designing costumes. I think we all can agree with that.

[jmassie]

i would say that most times, with the "wasting pages with characters standing there looking cool" could be attributed to the writer. not the artist. claremont, grant morrison, jeph loeb, frank miller... im sure thier scripts say "page 5: bad ass shot of (whoever) standing there looking strong, angry, powerful, go crazy. have fun".

kirkman doesnt write that way, so ottley doesnt need to do it that much. but if kirkman DID... ottley would be drawing that way. maybe BETTER than others, for sure.. but he would be doing it.

just a thought there..

rob

Back in the early 90's when Lee was on X-men he was so popular that higher ups at Marvel forced Claremont to start writing to the 'strengths' of Lee. As a writer you are supposed to do that. The thing about Lee is that his drawings of people just standing there doing nothing for an entire page aren't a strength.

[Phatman]

Yeah, I don't get how things got so misconstrued in this thread. The X-men cover is a bad composition-that doesn't make Lee a bad artist. In fact, I think he is an incredibly talented guy whose a good person to boot. My beef is with the people who declare him an "art god" at the exclusion of guys who can tell stories much better than him with just as much flare and style. Frankly, I think it's absurd to even have the old "artist A is better than artist B" debate in most cases since it usually degenerates into taste and opinion rather than critical analysis of the work. I think most of us can agree that Ottley and Lee are both pretty good artists-in fact, it's not really up for debate-they are.

[Mike225]

Back in the early 90's when Lee was on X-men he was so popular that higher ups at Marvel forced Claremont to start writing to the 'strengths' of Lee. As a writer you are supposed to do that. The thing about Lee is that his drawings of people just standing there doing nothing for an entire page aren't a strength.Too bad he never wrote anything with the letterer in mind.

[Buckyrig]

Too bad he never wrote anything with the letterer in mind.

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/images/smilies/rimshot.gif

[Mike225]

Thank you, thank you!

[heartofglitter]

Yeah, I don't get how things got so misconstrued in this thread. The X-men cover is a bad composition-that doesn't make Lee a bad artist. In fact, I think he is an incredibly talented guy whose a good person to boot. My beef is with the people who declare him an "art god" at the exclusion of guys who can tell stories much better than him with just as much flare and style. Frankly, I think it's absurd to even have the old "artist A is better than artist B" debate in most cases since it usually degenerates into taste and opinion rather than critical analysis of the work. I think most of us can agree that Ottley and Lee are both pretty good artists-in fact, it's not really up for debate-they are.
Yes, thank you! This is something that I was trying to across, but failed at.

[Mwynn]

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/mawynn74/x-men_200_cover.jpg

[captainarian]

wait all this time it was jim lee and i thought that this x-men cover was finch's work? damn

[SethNI]

I think both are great artists, but it sure does look like Jim Lee has tried to imitate Wya's style for that cover, which I am sure for Ryan is a big compliment.

[Mic. Gee]

I don't know if anyone's said this but it looks like Wya HAS been influenced by Jim Lee. His work looks like a cross betweeen Jim Lee, Jeff Bone and Cully Hammer. Wya uses less lines so his work looks more confident.
The End.

[Hanzou]

Bad composition or not, that X-Men #1 cover is one of the greatest covers in comics history.

Haters be damned!

[Mungkay]

The new costume is pretty underwhelming. It just doesn't "pop" like the yellow one did.

If he was going to get a new costume, you'd think he's ditch the lenses. Every time he gets in a fight he has to get them replaced. :yuk:

[Phatman]

Bad composition or not, that X-Men #1 cover is one of the greatest covers in comics history.


WTF!?! :blink:

[Mike225]

Bad composition or not, that X-Men #1 cover is one of the greatest covers in comics history.

Haters be damned! :laugh:

[Mwynn]

Bad composition or not, that X-Men #1 cover is one of the greatest covers in comics history.

Haters be damned!
I would like to see your top five or ten list of best covers.

[htucker]

while this debate goes on, i thought it was hilarious that Leinil Francis Yu is qouted as this being one of his favorite covers ever (the x-men cover i mean)...

"Jim Lee is one of the greatest artists ever. This cover is probably as memorable for me as it is ubiquitous. The way Jim uses depth of field in this cover is the backbone of how i design my covers and even interiors. Not only do the individual pieces stand on their own, but putting them together is even more marvelous." -- December 2007 Wizard

of course, thinking about it now, i probably just instigated someone hating on Yu now.

... sigh

[captainarian]

the new costume sucks shit! end of the story, bring on the old costume dude, i bet this one is a dream mark is having while he's sleeping or some shit.
and what kind of a freakin costume is his brother wearing? :yuk:

[superman79]

Slightly off topic but I saw Jim Lee's cover of Heroes for tv guide and was less than impressed. If Scott Williams quit inking Lee, he wouldn't be pencilling. Williams is Lee's bread and butter. Proof that good inkers are as important as anyone else in creating. Having that synergy between penciler,inker and colorist can make or break the whole project. I'm now removing myself from my soapbox.

[chris stevens]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VaSqkq4hhwI


yeah, what would jim lee do without scott williams.. :slap:

jim lee is a fine comic book artist. it's great for 'invincible' to have him doing that cover, and i'm sure kirkman and wya are thrilled he's doing it. it all but guarantees that people who've never read the book before will at least be picking it up. and that's the whole point.

[captainarian]

he hasn't even spent 5 minutes on the damn thing, what the hell? this is worse than his quick sketches.