Hey, It's 1997 all over again...

[jeffers]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=135791

That's it. All the work Hitch and Millar put into this title...all for nothing.

We're back to bad costumes and oversized breasts (in real life, great, but on Marvel's "Gold Standard" line, not so much) and complete loss of a cinematic feel... And what the hell is Hawkeye doing pretending he's Chow Yun-Fat from "Hard Boiled"?!

Thanks a lot, Marvel.

Bastards.

[Scott Story]

Did they toss out Ultimate continuity? Not that I care, but Thor's hammer has changed shape, I hear he's back to talking in that Norse dialect, and wasn't Valkyre supposed to be a non-powered joke character in this setting, as she was in Ultimates II?

This does look very retro, I'll admit.

[eDuke]

Suh-weet! I can't wait for this!

[Phatman]

This looks like another reboot of the Avengers and not the Ultimates. I don't blame Loeb or Mad on this, but the short-sighted editorial direction being taken here. Even if it is a good production, it doesn't fit the look or feel of the title.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Do I even have to mention how much I think this sucks?

[Newt]

Do I even have to mention how much I think this sucks?

But... it's EXTREME!!!

[Mwynn]

http://www.newsarama.com/Ultimate_Marvel/Ultimates3/Ultimates3no1Preview2.jpg

What is going on in this page?

[Newt]

Well, obviously two Hawkeyes fighting two Venoms = four times the awesome!

[Mwynn]

Hawkeye?? Thats not Grifter?

[Mr.Musgrave]

But... it's EXTREME!!!

Yeah. My hatred for how much it sucks is extreme too. Mwynn's right. What the fuck is going on in that page? Worst fucking story telling I've seen in a long time.

[Newt]

:laugh:

It is pretty bad. Fancy coloring, though.

[Mr.Musgrave]

It's okay but my X-TREME hatred for the artwork makes me want to bunny-punch the coloring.

[kdmelrose]

At least Venom's tongue will appeal to the cat-penis fanciers.

[Newt]

An under-exploited demographic if ever there was one!

[Scott Story]

Over-rendered. Incomprehensible.

Colorist: "must... only... use... warm... colors..."

[MARK A ROBINSON]

This looks like a cool video game...

I wonder if it will be Multi- player?

;)

M.

[Biofungus]

This looks like a cool video game...

I wonder if it will be Multi- player?

;)

M.
Consider how it appears that there's like 3 Hawkters (Grifeyes?) in that scene, I'm sure there will be!

[Nitecrawlah2]

Man, I can't wait for that double gatefold chromium plated bulletproof variant # 1!!

[Mwynn]

Why is Thor punching himself? By the position of all the characters that is the only thing that could have happened.

http://www.newsarama.com/Ultimate_Marvel/Ultimates3/Ultimates3no1Preview1.jpg

[Mr.Musgrave]

If you had to be in this comic, wouldn't YOU punch yourself?

[Biofungus]

Actually, Wasp grabbed his hand and started going, "why ya punching yourself? Why ya punching yourself? Why ya..." well, you get the idea :p

[Moonrider]

I dunno, I kinda liked it. But this should have been a Marvel Mangaverse title.

[The Dag]

im kinda sick of talking about this...w been doing it for like a year...

[kdmelrose]

Guys, stopping forcing Dag to talk about this!

[Mike225]

http://www.newsarama.com/Ultimate_Marvel/Ultimates3/Ultimates3no1Preview2.jpg

What is going on in this page?Panel 1: Hawkeye has a gun. He’s running.

Panel 2: He’s shooting and jumping at the same time for some reason.

Panel 3: Looks like Hawkeye has a wrist band/crossbow thing and he’s shooting an arrow.

Panel 4: The arrow hits Venom in the eye.

Panel 5: Venom pulls the arrow out of his eye with his tongue.

Panel 6: Venom recoils in pain at the thought of having pulled an arrow out of his eye.

[Mike225]

Furthermore, on second viewing, I realize that Hawkeye has gone insane and is clearly the protagonist. He's shooting in all directions indiscriminately.

[Mwynn]

Why is the Hawkeye from panel 1 in three panels?

Is he running through that wall?

Why is Venom breaking the panel?

Did Hawkeye drop his guns in favor of an arrow?

How big is venom suppose to be.

He looks to be the same size as Hawkeye, then he is as big as the buildings.

If someone posted this page in the Artists section how many people will tear it apart?

[Paul Sanderson]

Do I even have to mention how much I think this sucks?

It's Marvel, Musgrave, what did you expect?

[Mike225]

:yawn:

[Scott Story]

Marvel does some good stuff--specifically, just about anything that Brubaker writes. Daredevil and Cap are good. Bendis' Avengers books, while not as great as the Busiek run, were not bad either. I picked up a Heroes for Hire, and while it's light reading, I enjoyed it. I guess my point is I don't want to paint with too broad a brush.

I think the problem with Ultimates (I almost typed "Authority") is that the standard was really high, and Vol I & II stand as hallmarks of superhero books in the decade. The Ultimates/Hulk Battle, for example, was pretty much the coolest superfight ever; and the domestic abuse with Giant Man/Wasp was truly shocking at the time. So, take a great book, and then go retro 90's, and to ignore how established characters are used, just seems crazy.

[Mike225]

Marvel does some good stuff--specifically, just about anything that Brubaker writes. Daredevil and Cap are good. Bendis' Avengers books, while not as great as the Busiek run, were not bad either. I picked up a Heroes for Hire, and while it's light reading, I enjoyed it. I guess my point is I don't want to paint with too broad a brush.Yeah, that's what I said. Except for the part about Bendis' Avengers being "not bad."

[Paul Sanderson]

There's always the odd exception, but those exceptions are getting rarer and rarer at Marvel these days.

[kdmelrose]

What Marvel books have you been reading ... these days?

[HaphazardJoy]

I'm not seeing the issue here really. A couple of the panels could use some more gutter space, and the colors are too similar from panel to panel, but the artwork is really quite nice in my book. It makes sense to me, Hawkeye busting up Venom, Venom gets shot in the eye, Venom is shown pushing the bullets out of his flesh and pulling the arrow out of his eye, Hawkeye lights him up again, almost certainly with explosive rounds, with rounds already going off inside of Venom. [There, fixed for Marvin]

Some of these complaints are really stretching. OMG, the same character appears in multiple panels on the same page?! What?! Those bastards! :sure:

[Newt]

When you can't tell which panel the character is actually supposed to be in, something is wrong.

[Paul Sanderson]

I look over most titles when I get to the store. Most from Marvel is unreadable garbage. But, I look them over so as to be able to render an honest opinion.

[HaphazardJoy]

When you can't tell which panel the character is actually supposed to be in, something is wrong.

Yes, something is indeed wrong in that case, and I'm going to say it's on your part. It made sense to me pretty much immediately.

[Mwynn]

I'm not seeing the issue here really. A couple of the panels could use some more gutter space, and the colors are too similar from panel to panel, but the artwork is really quite nice in my book. It makes sense to me, Hawkeye busting up Venom, Venom gets shot in the eye, Venom is shown pushing the bullets out of his flesh and pulling the arrow out of his eye, Hawkeye lights him up again, presumably with explosive rounds, possibly with rounds already going off inside of Venom.

Some of these complaints are really stretching. OMG, the same character appears in multiple panels on the same page?! What?! Those bastards! :sure:
If you have to use the words "possibly and presumably " then it is not clear.

[kdmelrose]

I look over most titles when I get to the store. Most from Marvel is unreadable garbage. But, I look them over so as to be able to render an honest opinion.

Honest, maybe. But I don't know how well-founded that opinion is.

[HaphazardJoy]

Not that I care, but Thor's hammer has changed shape

I know it's been pointed out in other discussions elsewhere, but I'll point it out again. In mythology, Thor's hammer was always capable of changing shape to suit his needs.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Honest, maybe. But I don't know how well-founded that opinion is.


Agreed. You can't just the quality of a book by "looking it over." That doesn't even make sense.

[HaphazardJoy]

If you have to use the words "possibly and presumably " then it is not clear.

Don't argue semantics Wynn. It's not as if this even has sound effects, much less caps and dialogue, without which, you can make this an issue with a large amount of comic content out there.

[Mr.Musgrave]

I know it's been pointed out in other discussions elsewhere, but I'll point it out again. In mythology, Thor's hammer was always capable of changing shape to suit his needs.


I've read a lot about norse mythology but I don't ever remember reading that.

[Newt]

Maybe you're more used to this kind of story-telling than I am, but the fact is: the first image of Hawkeye is not only totally out of his appropriate panel, not only in the same plane of focus as the figure of Venom (who is presumably supposed to be further away than Hawkeye) in the second panel, not only tangential to said figure of Venom, but is actually stepping on the third panel!

Speaking of that third panel, when did Hawkeye find the time to take his coat off? Or is it a sleeveless coat; I really can't tell. And what the hell is he aiming at with that gun in his left hand?

It also appears that Hawkeye suddenly found a Mini-gun or something in the last panel; seems like he would have used that first.

The whole thing just seems sloppy to me.

*EDIT* This is a response to post # 37; apparently I'm a slow typist.

[HaphazardJoy]

I've read a lot about norse mythology but I don't ever remember reading that.

It's depicted as a war hammer, axe, or club at different times, and has the ability to shrink down in size for easy carrying, as per Norse mythlogy. I don't know that it was ever depicted as a stone mallet like in Marvel's versions of Thor, but it's not a huge stretch.

[Newt]

I've read a lot about norse mythology but I don't ever remember reading that.

Yeah, I thought Mjolnir was always small and Thor kept it in his pocket. In any case, Marvel Thor is so thoroughly divorced from mythological Thor that citing story elements from one to support the other is ludicrous.

[Mwynn]

With good storytelling through art you do not need dialogue or sound effects.

Recall the silent issue of Gi Joe.

[Mr.Musgrave]

It's depicted as a war hammer, axe, or club at different times, and has the ability to shrink down in size for easy carrying, as per Norse mythlogy. I don't know that it was ever depicted as a stone mallet like in Marvel's versions of Thor, but it's not a huge stretch.

I just looked through some of my norse mythology books and they don't say anything about that. I can't even find anything on the internet that mentions the hammer shifting shape. I think you're mistaken.

[Mwynn]

I just looked through some of my norse mythology books and they don't say anything about that. I can't even find anything on the internet that mentions the hammer shifting shape. I think you're mistaken.
I think it comes down to who is telling the story at the moment.

The Prose Edda gives a detailed description of Mjolnir's special qualities:

"...He [Thor] would be able to strike as firmly as he wanted, whatever his aim, and the hammer would never fail, and if he threw it at something, it would never miss and never fly so far from his hand that it would not find its way back, and when he wanted, it would be so small that it could be carried inside his tunic."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mjolnir

[Raven]

I just looked through some of my norse mythology books and they don't say anything about that. I can't even find anything on the internet that mentions the hammer shifting shape. I think you're mistaken.

I think he IS right Steve, I recall something like that too. As well, a guy had a ring made that would turn into a ship.

Also, I bet half the people defending this crappy book would defend it no matter how it looked. The worst books Marvel ever puts out still get people defending them, because they are Marvel.

Norse mythology aside, Ultimate Thor wasn't even clearly a Norse God, his hammer was created in a LAB. What was wrong with his Ultimate costume anyway?

Is Millar still working at Marvel? Maybe he pissed them off, the way Starlin and Morrison did and they are doing this out of spite??

[BIGROD]

Also, I bet half the people defending this crappy book would defend it no matter how it looked. The worst books Marvel ever puts out still get people defending them, because they are Marvel.

Or maybe it's because everyone has different tastes. :rolleyes:
One person's dislikes could easily be another's "must-read" every month, Marvel or not.

[Rob Norton]

I look over most titles when I get to the store. Most from Marvel is unreadable garbage. But, I look them over so as to be able to render an honest opinion.


yeeeahh... cause flipping thru a book is a GREAT way to get a valid informed opinion. yeah. can i just FLIP thru a WRAITH comic book and come away with an honest and accurate opinion of the work beyond "hey..this looks like a 3rd rate retarded batman ripoff". is that fair? is that honest? does that encompase (sp?) your work and all the effort you put into it? oh well. doesnt matter. i flipped thru it. and its garbage. utter garbage. now im gonna tell EVERYone i know.

rob

[Biofungus]

The Prose Edda gives a detailed description of Mjolnir's special qualities:

"...He [Thor] would be able to strike as firmly as he wanted, whatever his aim, and the hammer would never fail
So basically, he can put up dry wall without slamming his thumb?

[kdmelrose]

So basically, he can put up dry wall without slamming his thumb?

Well, he is a god.

[Scott Story]

I've read a lot about norse mythology but I don't ever remember reading that.

Same here. I mean, I haven't read every possible book, and different artists have different ideas, but there's nothing about the hammer changing shape at will. In fact, the dwarves made it with its handle too short, and Thor couldn't change that. It's pretty well established.

Norse mythology aside, Ultimate Thor wasn't even clearly a Norse God, his hammer was created in a LAB. What was wrong with his Ultimate costume anyway?

You didn't finish Ultimates II, then? When the gods and giants of Asgard came to Wash. DC, and Loki, and all that?

[Mr.Musgrave]

Same here. I mean, I haven't read every possible book, and different artists have different ideas, but there's nothing about the hammer changing shape at will. In fact, the dwarves made it with its handle too short, and Thor couldn't change that. It's pretty well established.


Yeah, that's what was throwing me too. The dwarves were all pissed off at him about something and they fucked up the hammer design to spite him.

[HaphazardJoy]

Well it IS clearly stated that it can change size, and it's not always refered to as simply being a hammer. I can't really recall a specific source that said it could change forms specifically, but like the wiki entry, I have read multiple times that it can change size. One other thing here in the Ultimate Encyclopedia of Mythology that I thought was interesting, apparently in at least one story, mjollnir magic extended to healing and restoration.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Well, you can say that all you want but I haven't been able to find anything about it being able to change shape. Size, yeah. Smaller anyway. But not shape. If you can find a source for it, I'd be happy to read it. But none of my books nor my internet searches have said anything of the such.

[kdmelrose]

I haven't dusted off my mythology books for this, but in some stories Mjolnir was depicted as a hammer, in others an ax, and in others still, a club.

That's not necessarily the shape-shifting quality of the weapon but, rather, the nature of the storytelling tradition.

[Newt]

In any case, does any of that have anything to do with what happens to Marvel Thor? If he shows up in the next issue of Avengers in a goat-drawn chariot, will you say, "Well, there's mythological precedent?"

[Raven]

You didn't finish Ultimates II, then? When the gods and giants of Asgard came to Wash. DC, and Loki, and all that?

So he is the same as the regular Thor then??

And Steve, the reason the hammer handle was short was because Loki turned into a mosquito while the dwarves were forging it and pestered them.

[W. Smith]

I'm late the game, but I was very interested in this book.

I love me some Joe Mad, flaws and all. Battle chasers was really cool (damn Joe for not ever finishing it)

Gotta love Jeph Loeb too. I was not really fond of "Hush" but his other batman stuff was really good.

Besides, how could Marvel ever hope to measure up to Millar and Hitch? The Authority books have lost their zing, even though they managed to hold it together for a little while, but really, a different direction will draw in more "core" Marvel fans, and like it or not, most of you are too opinionated to be hard core fans, right?

You all here are true conissuers of comicdom. The eloquent elite, the high-minded, critical-eyed, literary purveyors of all that is right and wrong with comics.

And somewhere along the line, you forgot that comics was supposed to be insane out of proportion action fun for most (if not all) ages.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. But here's the real kicker: the ones of you bitchin' the most will buy it -all 12 or 13 issues- and then you will continue to make bogus criticisms and insubstantial comparisons.

I mean, after all we are talking about a universe that contains everything from a talking duck (howard), to a irradiated, spider bitten bug boy, that shoots webs from his wrist and is still considered cool.

No one stays in one place anymore (Bendis and Bagley the exception). What did you expect?

[Mr.Musgrave]

I expect quality. And not all comics are meant to be mis-proportioned, brightly colored action scenes.

And you forgot to say "you're just jealous."

[Newt]

I will not be buying this comic.

IN YOUR FACE, MARVEL! :mad:

[ponyrl]

I will, just to spite you ALL!

:laugh:

LONG LIVE MEDIOCRITY!

[Mike225]

I expect quality. And not all comics are meant to be mis-proportioned, brightly colored action scenes.

And you forgot to say "you're just jealous."You're just jealous.

[Newt]

Nuh-uh! Shut up!

[RandallFlagg]

I expect quality. And not all comics are meant to be mis-proportioned, brightly colored action scenes.

And you forgot to say "you're just jealous."
No one ever says that. When people pull the jealous card, it always comes out as something akin to "ur just jelus u cant get published."

[Mike225]

No one ever says that. When people pull the jealous card, it always comes out as something akin to "ur just jelus u cant get published."You're just jealous.

[Newt]

I will, just to spite you ALL!

:laugh:

LONG LIVE MEDIOCRITY!

Curse you, Ponyrl!

*shakes fist*

[Mike225]

I do have to give it up to Madureira...he finished some books even though X-Box 360s, PS3s and Wiis came out.

[Raven]

I expect quality. And not all comics are meant to be mis-proportioned, brightly colored action scenes.

And you forgot to say "you're just jealous."

Man, how did we not get along at first? :)

You pretty much summed it up for me.

[W. Smith]

You can expect quality, and not all books are supposed to be flashy super-hero books.

I have no idea about the jealousy thing at all. That seems out of place, I don't even know you. If your envy is that big an issue, seek some counseling, I hear it can be very helpful.

In comics, QUALITY is as subjective as in any other art. What floats your boat is completely personal.

All of us in this forum tend to float opinions out as facts, some of them can be quite harsh and largely unfounded. I am as guilty as the next guy. That being said, I have come to terms with the fact that Marvel is a BUSINESS first and everything else later. It is a very sound commercial move to put this team on a flagship book. I think it might have been better that they were involved in the "regular" universe, but this effort will increase sales and interest.

I am unsure why everyone is so critical of MAD!. His work is a good as anyone else in the business (maybe the few really greats like Lee or Ross) but he is as good a fracis lenil yu, steven niles or brian finch.

So if I interupted your rant, oh well. Keep ranting, lovers or haters we all have an opinion, and like the a$$holes we all have, they all stink.

[Raven]

You can expect quality, and not all books are supposed to be flashy super-hero books.
So if I interupted your rant, oh well. Keep ranting, lovers or haters we all have an opinion, and like the a$$holes we all have, they all stink.

I'm curious though, is anyone qualified to make judgements on the quality of a Marvel comic? Because when old pro's do it, they are said to be "old, jealous or they just don't get the modern audience" and when new guys do it they are "inexperienced, jealous, not qualified".

So is there anyone in the world that fans would agree is qualified to say that a book from Marvel is garbage?

[Mwynn]

I'm curious though, is anyone qualified to make judgements on the quality of a Marvel comic? Because when old pro's do it, they are said to be "old, jealous or they just don't get the modern audience" and when new guys do it they are "inexperienced, jealous, not qualified".

So is there anyone in the world that fans would agree is qualified to say that a book from Marvel is garbage?
Mormon Jesus?

[Mwynn]

I am unsure why everyone is so critical of MAD!. His work is a good as anyone else in the business (maybe the few really greats like Lee or Ross) but he is as good a fracis lenil yu, steven niles or brian finch.

You must have missed the Lee and Ross threads. Who is Brian Finch?

[Raven]

I am unsure why everyone is so critical of MAD!. His work is a good as anyone else in the business (maybe the few really greats like Lee or Ross) but he is as good a fracis lenil yu, steven niles or brian finch.

.

Steve Niles is a writer.

[W. Smith]

My head is up my butt today. Sorry:

David Finch and Steve McNiven

Also, anyone is qualified to judge, as I said comic quality is mostly subjective. I think we can often agree on what is really bad/terrible, but our opinions vary wildly on what is good or great. I just feel that often we, and I do include myself, do not allow for new directions. Be closed to the book. Judge it before you can read it. Judge it by it's cover (i.e., the art) before you read it.

I just think that it might be premature and relatively immature.

Once again, I did not bring up envy, jealously or stuff like that, that never even crossed my mind.

[jeffers]

I don't mind MAD's work (that much).... I remember drinking up his run on X-Men like drops of ambrosia. The Phalanx Saga (with Scott Williams inking)? Beautiful. Archangel finally getting his organic wings back? Great moment.

But the industry's changed since MAD last drew a monthly and (Good God) why did his first comic back have to be "The Ultimates"?! That's just a piss-poor, flash-over-substance decision by Marvel. Take the dense, detail-rich, photo-realistic style of Bryan Hitch and replace it with the manga-inspired, leg-band-big-boobed, hyperactive-thyroid cheesecake of Joe MAD?! C'mon! Sleeveless trenchcoat and a facemask on Hawkeye?!

It's the wrong fit. God, is it the wrong fit. It's like being served skirt steak after eating a Wagyu fliet mignon served with foie gras for two years: "I mean, skirt steak's good and all, but I just ate the best meat on the planet!"

Reading the Millar/Hitch Ultimates was like watching the Avengers if HBO produced it as a Sunday night series. It was "The Sopranos" of comics. It was the second season of "Deadwood." Joe Mad is like "Grey's Anatomy." I see why it's popular, but it ain't no Sopranos. You can see the difference in quality.

Hitch's production time was a downer, sure, but damn was it worth it. The question is: would you wait that long for Joe MAD?

[Mr.Musgrave]

You have to wait longer for Mad than you do for Hitch. History has proven that one over and over.

[knockedoutpanzer]

A book from Marvel is garbage.

[Phatman]

You can expect quality, and not all books are supposed to be flashy super-hero books.

All books should be able to tell a story though-it's sort of the point.


In comics, QUALITY is as subjective as in any other art. What floats your boat is completely personal.

What "floats your boat" is personal, but what is successful art (in any media) can be analyzed and equated by certain criteria. In 2-D art, these elements are obvious. In sequential art the trump card to everything is telling the story-a major point that you don't get.

All of us in this forum tend to float opinions out as facts, some of them can be quite harsh and largely unfounded. I am as guilty as the next guy. That being said, I have come to terms with the fact that Marvel is a BUSINESS first and everything else later. It is a very sound commercial move to put this team on a flagship book. I think it might have been better that they were involved in the "regular" universe, but this effort will increase sales and interest.

I think it will have a hard time equalling the sales of the Millar/Hitch run or having the same impact. We'll see.

I am unsure why everyone is so critical of MAD!. His work is a good as anyone else in the business (maybe the few really greats like Lee or Ross) but he is as good a fracis lenil yu, steven niles or brian finch.

You really are clueless, aren't you? I get that you like his style, but there is no substance to his work (i.e. he can't tell a story with his pretty pictures!). I'll throw a few names out there: is he as good as Romita? Hitch?Mignola?-not only is the answer no, it is FUCK NO! Digging somebody's style is great, but if you are going to make these kind of statements you need to back them up with more than "I dig me some Joe MAD!"-otherwise you come off as just another fanboy-assclown.

So if I interupted your rant, oh well. Keep ranting, lovers or haters we all have an opinion, and like the a$$holes we all have, they all stink.

Not only does your's stink it's been worked over so much by Joe Mad that you've lost touch with reality.

[exilednight]

You must have missed the Lee and Ross threads. Who is Brian Finch?

This is Brian Finch (http://www6.autonet.ca/BrianFinch/)

I love most of Alex Ross work. Justice, in my opinion, was a great read and should have been the story told in Infinite Crisis.

Jim Lee on the other hand is hit and miss with me. Sometimes I love his work, other times I wonder what the hell is he doing. He usually hits more often than he misses.

[ponyrl]

Greg Land IS GOD!

Liefeld is the second COMING!

*runs out of thread laughing*

:laugh:

[captainarian]

omg! lamo! this the funniest thread i've read in years since my membership in DW, i laughed so hard i was falling off my chair...kewl, ok now i know the ultimates will never get as perfect as the millar/hitch series but this looks good too, what's your problem guys? hawkeye looks great, the action and the rest look good, the colors are very sharp, that's not good but it's ok. why do you hate big boobs? big boobs are good for our health.
you are all jealous :D

knockedoutpanzer: i'm with you dude, but we still buy'em.

ponyrl: greg land is good...

[Moonrider]

why do you hate big boobs? big boobs are good for our health.
you are all jealous :D


:blink: I do NOT want big boobs.

[W. Smith]

I am not clueless, I just disagree. No I don't put Mad up there with Mignola or Romita, that is why I didn't mention those names. But Mad is as good as Angel Medina, J. Scott Campbell, and the others I tried unsuccessfully to mention.

Ron Paul this is nothing personal. I am more careful about what I spend today than I ever have been before. I have not been involved with DC since the beginning of Infinate Crisis, and I left Marvel at the beginning of Civil War. I try to keep up by stealing glimpses in the trades and GN at Barnes and Noble, but I won't spend my dollar.

All books evolve for better or worse. I just think we as a collective whole we can be overly critical. No matter what your view, comics are extremely subjective. Remeber that as a creator you may have a more intuitive eye, but with that comes a much more critical stance.

I was a MAD fan 12 years ago or so. I picked up his first main work (I think it was Troll #1 at Image), but I am not going to apologize for being one. People like Turner, Larson, McFarlane, yes and people even like Liefeld.

This book is clearly not the Ultimates in the vein of Millar/Hitch, but no book remains the same through the years. Look carefully at comics for the past years across the Millar/Hitch run. How many books have made drastic chages in direction, how many creative teams have cycled through? Very few books have maintained the same level of quality and storytelling.

In my opinion, you guys are acting like whiny babies, like this is a personal matter. It is a change in creative teams, not that big a deal. In the end there will still be comics, the Ultimates will still be there, and if necessary then a new creative team will be put in place and things will move on.

Just enjoy the ride. If a particular coaster is too scary, to jerky or to boring, then skip it, no is going to make you ride it, but you are not changing anyone's opinions by whining and attacking.

And that's the saddest part. Some of you have the talent and experience to provide some constructive critical insight, but all you are doing is just griping and bashing.

Justin
:(

[Mr.Musgrave]

As soon as you stop saying "art is subjective" like a bloody amateur we'll take your posts seriously. Until then, you're just another fanboy.

[Mwynn]

Also, anyone is qualified to judge, as I said comic quality is mostly subjective. I think we can often agree on what is really bad/terrible, but our opinions vary wildly on what is good or great. I just feel that often we, and I do include myself, do not allow for new directions. Be closed to the book. Judge it before you can read it. Judge it by it's cover (i.e., the art) before you read it.


The art is part of the story. If the art is unclear what the letter says is pointless to me.

[W. Smith]

As soon as you stop saying "art is subjective" like a bloody amateur we'll take your posts seriously. Until then, you're just another fanboy.

Ahh. You think because I believe that art is subjective, that I do not think there is a minimum quality.

If you want to gauge storytelling, panel layout, and composition, that's fine, and we should. But for a lot of people, it is okay to substitute style over substance and in that way it is still subjective.

And enough with this fan-boy crap. We are all fans, or we wouldn't be concerned with this topic at all.

Every artist and creator has his flaws, and anyone can point them out. If I am standing on the platform of wait and see, you are standing on the same unsubstantiated platfom of this is crap!

As for storytelling, someone mentioned GI Joe #21, Silent Interlude, of the original series, the "silent issue." I didn't think the second worked so well (in the new series). The original is one of my favorite books of all time. I wish I had a copy. What worked for storytelling there is the type of story, a silent, sneaky, spy infiltration, and still I remember panels where snake-eyes is fighting the red ninjas and storm shadow that were not perfectly clear and I was under age 15 at the time.

It is unfair, in my opinion, to make that issue the gold standard and the measure of storytelling. Comic books are meant to be a blend of words and pictures. Because the storytelling can sometimes stand alone doesn't mean it is supposed to, or even should be able too.

Silent films are great but sound effects and speech have, overall improved film haven't they? We may assert that some sillent films are classic masterpieces, but should we rely on that for everything in film from now on? 2001 is a great film and long pauses and silence are used effectively, but was Star Wars or Alien less of a film solely because they relied on dialog?

Mr. Musgrave: Attacking me doesn't prove any of your points, it just means that you are small and petty. If you want me to take you seriously, then commit to the dialog and stop being immature.

[Mr.Musgrave]

If you want to gauge storytelling, panel layout, and composition, that's fine, and we should. But for a lot of people, it is okay to substitute style over substance and in that way it is still subjective.


No, it's not. It is never alright to substitute style for substance. Using style as an excuse for poor artwork is the sign of a bad artist. You don't have the slightest clue when it comes to quality storytelling or even the basics of artwork. You want people to stop attacking you? Stop being so fucking obtuse.

And your "it's just comics" garbage is an insult to every creator in the field.

[Raven]

And your "it's just comics" garbage is an insult to every creator in the field.

Man, you wouldn't believe how many times I've wanted to choke the shit out of people for saying that.

[W. Smith]

I am not being obtuse, I am simply not going to back off of my stance because you can be a bigger jerk than I.

I am a creator in the field, or trying to be. Comics has been my passion since I was a kid, and I love them, I just realize that taking your stance and spitting venom as a matter of course just doesn't do much good.

And we see style over substance in every major media form. We critique it and it still sells. The demographic for comics is getting older, and companies will continue to try and lasso in new readers, especially the teen-age to early twenties crowd that is so absorbed in video games, where Mad's artwork and direction has been profitable. What I am trying to say is that artwork is not the only thing, the story is as important. Just see what happens.

We only saw one part of the book, and while I can see issues with the art, I had no real problem following the story. And I like the "hyper hero, hyper kinetic" art, it is what comics is about for alot of fans. Sometimes comics becomes to real, to much like the world today, and the fantasy is lost.

No, I don't particularly like the character designs, I liked Hawkeye the way he was, and I like that the Iron Man suit was oversized, but that doesn't mean the book is bad just because there have been modifications to character costumes.

Listen, just because you believe that you know more, doesn't mean we have to believe it. As I said before stop with the name calling. If you want to discuss the book and it's issues, problems and challenges, great, let's do that. Break down why it needs work and let's analyze it. But those of you that dislike the work because you dislike the artist may be going overboard, having not had the whole experience as of yet.

[Raven]

I am not being obtuse, I am simply not going to back off of my stance because you can be a bigger jerk than I.

I am a creator in the field, or trying to be. Comics has been my passion since I was a kid, and I love them, I just realize that taking your stance and spitting venom as a matter of course just doesn't do much good.

And we see style over substance in every major media form. We critique it and it still sells. The demographic for comics is getting older, and companies will continue to try and lasso in new readers, especially the teen-age to early twenties crowd that is so absorbed in video games, where Mad's artwork and direction has been profitable. What I am trying to say is that artwork is not the only thing, the story is as important. Just see what happens.

We only saw one part of the book, and while I can see issues with the art, I had no real problem following the story. And I like the "hyper hero, hyper kinetic" art, it is what comics is about for alot of fans. Sometimes comics becomes to real, to much like the world today, and the fantasy is lost.

No, I don't particularly like the character designs, I liked Hawkeye the way he was, and I like that the Iron Man suit was oversized, but that doesn't mean the book is bad just because there have been modifications to character costumes.

Listen, just because you believe that you know more, doesn't mean we have to believe it. As I said before stop with the name calling. If you want to discuss the book and it's issues, problems and challenges, great, let's do that. Break down why it needs work and let's analyze it. But those of you that dislike the work because you dislike the artist may be going overboard, having not had the whole experience as of yet.

Here's the thing though, not all of us were just complaining about the art. You state that "comics become too real" but that was exactly what we were told the Ultimate Universe was going to be. So some of us have issues with the art, some with Jeph Loeb's storytelling (which we can't judge yet) and some with the editorial decisions that were made to make this book happen.

Misleading fans and/or changing focus for the publishing line, combined with questionable art means that this book has to be incredibly well written to be good. In other words, when so many elements are bad, it can't be good.

[Mike225]

Here's the thing though, not all of us were just complaining about the art. You state that "comics become too real" but that was exactly what we were told the Ultimate Universe was going to be. So some of us have issues with the art, some with Jeph Loeb's storytelling (which we can't judge yet) and some with the editorial decisions that were made to make this book happen.

Misleading fans and/or changing focus for the publishing line, combined with questionable art means that this book has to be incredibly well written to be good. In other words, when so many elements are bad, it can't be good.Not to mention that it's a Marvel book and Quesada may/may not have had something to do with it!

[Mr.Musgrave]

*SNIP*

Just because something sells, that doesn't mean that it's quality. The mindless masses like Paris Hilton and Brittney Spears too.

And Mad has been broken down again and again, in this thread even. If you'd get off your soapbox you'd (possibly) get that. I don't care if the story is the greatest thing ever put to paper. The artwork is so atrociously bad I would never spend money on anything it was connected to. The story telling is non-existent, the anatomy and panel to panel continuity is laughable, and the designs are 1990's leftover garbage.

The artwork is bad by every rule of sequential art. And that is not subjective. Style is subjective, the rules of art are not. And poor storytelling and design is not a style.

And if you knew more than the rest of us, I wouldn't be sitting here telling you about the basics of art.

[Raven]

Not to mention that it's a Marvel book and Quesada may/may not have had something to do with it!

Captain America, Daredevil, in fact everything Brubaker does is great. Nextwave was awesome.

[Mwynn]

More art from Ultimates 3. First up Hawkeye, he is suppose to be a Marksman yet he seems to just be firing wild in every page he is in.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/mawynn74/ultimates-vol-3-20071108045400183.jpg

This page does a poor job of establishing where they are.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/mawynn74/ultimates-vol-3-20071108045400949.jpg

I guess that is Black Panther flying away. Yet where did Hawkeye and Wasp come from.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/mawynn74/ultimates-vol-3-20071108045610099.jpg

Is Black Panther throwing a punch or flying away?

[Mwynn]

Forgot the other Hawkeye.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/mawynn74/ultimates_3_interior_06.jpg

[Justice41]

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/mawynn74/ultimates-vol-3-20071108045400949.jpg

I guess that is Black Panther flying away. Yet where did Hawkeye and Wasp come from.

How did Venom all of a sudden get into the middle of a small bavarian village?

[W. Smith]

Here's the thing though, not all of us were just complaining about the art. You state that "comics become too real" but that was exactly what we were told the Ultimate Universe was going to be. So some of us have issues with the art, some with Jeph Loeb's storytelling (which we can't judge yet) and some with the editorial decisions that were made to make this book happen.

Misleading fans and/or changing focus for the publishing line, combined with questionable art means that this book has to be incredibly well written to be good. In other words, when so many elements are bad, it can't be good.

You maybe right. The book may not be very good, and Loeb may not be able to pull off the story, but he has been able to sell books while working with "Super-hero" artist, and that is what this is meant to do.

We have already determined, in agreement, that the Ultimate universe has run it's course for the most part, and this is just another sign of it. There is a reason that the universes keep colliding, and that the new typically fails to catch on. This is marvel U. The only way to have substantial overlap is to shotgun for both crowds. Thus the art aims at a different group than the Ultimates fans, and I am betting the story will be as hard edged as Loeb can get (which for most of the Ultimates fans will be no where edgy enough).

I am unsure why they (the powers that be) chose this path, but they did. I like Mad's art, I like Loeb's writing, and I like the Ultimates, so this is a win for me until I can see how it works out.

[W. Smith]

Just because something sells, that doesn't mean that it's quality. The mindless masses like Paris Hilton and Brittney Spears too.

And Mad has been broken down again and again, in this thread even. If you'd get off your soapbox you'd (possibly) get that. I don't care if the story is the greatest thing ever put to paper. The artwork is so atrociously bad I would never spend money on anything it was connected to. The story telling is non-existent, the anatomy and panel to panel continuity is laughable, and the designs are 1990's leftover garbage.

The artwork is bad by every rule of sequential art. And that is not subjective. Style is subjective, the rules of art are not. And poor storytelling and design is not a style.

And if you knew more than the rest of us, I wouldn't be sitting here telling you about the basics of art.

You are not educating me about anything, and if you had something positive to say it would be lost in the delivery. Sometimes the soapbox is a soapbox, and sometimes it is just a higher road than you are willing to walk.

[Mr.Musgrave]

You are not educating me about anything, and if you had something positive to say it would be lost in the delivery. Sometimes the soapbox is a soapbox, and sometimes it is just a higher road than you are willing to walk.


Oh, please. :rolleyes:

[kdmelrose]

I am unsure why they (the powers that be) chose this path, but they did.

With Millar and Hitch ending their popular and distinctive run on The Ultimates, Marvel seemed to have one of three options: 1.) End the title;

2.) Find a creative team that could try to continue in the same vein as Millar and Hitch (sparking repeated cries of "You're no Bryan Hitch!"); or

3.) Find a creative team that would take the book in a vastly different direction. The third one seems to be what Marvel chose.

Sometimes I think Joe Madureira gets a bad rap, not so much for what he's done (or left unfinished), but for the legion of imitators his work has spawned. "Style" aside, though, the storytelling on these pages is just awful.

[W. Smith]

More art from Ultimates 3. First up Hawkeye, he is suppose to be a Marksman yet he seems to just be firing wild in every page he is in.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/mawynn74/ultimates-vol-3-20071108045400183.jpg

This page does a poor job of establishing where they are.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/mawynn74/ultimates-vol-3-20071108045400949.jpg

I guess that is Black Panther flying away. Yet where did Hawkeye and Wasp come from.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd207/mawynn74/ultimates-vol-3-20071108045610099.jpg

Is Black Panther throwing a punch or flying away?


These three pages do not go in order from top to bottom. If they do something is seriously wrong. I think if you look the storytelling is quite improved if you place the pages in another order.

The first page is the splash where Black panther punches Venom. WAsp is attacking too and Hawkeye is in the background. All the players are present in this establishing shot, It is clear that Hawkeye has not yet entered the fray but is on the scene and that BP and Wasp are engaging Venom. Yes BP has been made the focal point, but it is clear that venom has been hit.

A modern day can and street light in the back ground establish the setting in today or close to it.

The next page continues the fight with BP and Venom. HE punches him in the stomach and then follows with a cross in the next panel, in the third panel venom catches the punch and in the forth grabs hold of BP completely, lifting him off the ground. The background is lacking.

The next page starts by showing the result of the previous page with BP being thrown high into the sky. The setting is a central park of some kind with the city in the background (the fight seems to be moving in and out of street settings, and that should be more clear)

The wasp has renewed her attack or is now Venom's focus, he grabs her the way he did panther. The third panel is a little open. Hawkeye has no arrived in the fight but it is not clear if it was his or wasp's action that frees her, but I think in the context of the next panels, it is clearly hawkeye because he becomes the focus of Venom's next attack. We have shifted setting from what looked like a park back to the middle of the street.

I agree that the story telling could be better, but it isn't as disgraceful as you say. The scenery shifts are not too bad, not as consistent as I would like, but on par for today's art in comics.

As for character designs, yes they are beginning to mimic the Marvel U, I already conceded that.

[MARK A ROBINSON]

Joe Mad obviously looks alil out of practice.

that's natural. He's been away for like...ever?

So i'm sure the story telling is rusty. Is anyone is to blame for this it's editoral---plan and simple. They see layout--- or in "theory" they see them.

:blink:

And i'm not sure about the pages order- but that Spider-Man/Hawkeye page looks more recent- am I correct on this?

If so- it's getting better IMO. ( i think the Spidey is awesome- i like the semen webs myself :) )

I guess it's just a matter of opinion...If you don't dig on it- there's like a Gazillion other books you can invest your time and money and love into.

Your opinion of the work will be counted at the voting booth- which in this case is the cash register at your local shop.

No need to "keep" slamming the guy.

M.

[kdmelrose]

( i think the Spidey is awesome- i like the semen webs myself :) )

Perv.

[Raven]

I am unsure why they (the powers that be) chose this path, but they did. I like Mad's art, I like Loeb's writing, and I like the Ultimates, so this is a win for me until I can see how it works out.

I don't know, maybe because this type of art is easier to sell to animation studios, maybe because it is more appealing to the manga fans. Or maybe the lawyers finally told them to stop making characters that look like actors. :)

MAD would have been a great fit for New Avengers, although with Spidey on the team too I guess this IS the New Avengers.

So we've got three teams of Avengers across the board, with some members of the Old Avengers on the roster, X-Men and Spidey on two of them, and Captain America on one of them.

[MARK A ROBINSON]

Perv.

LOL.

it's true- look at it. It is indeed- a "money shot" all you need is the "sqwirt"-Sqwirt"

I'm a fan.

I test editoral daily on the sublime level. It's the illusion of me taking the power back! It's to keep guys like you on your toes Melrose.

Blame it on Girls Gone Wild and sex informercials @ 3am.

:)

M.

[W. Smith]

Joe Mad obviously looks alil out of practice.

that's natural. He's been away for like...ever?

So i'm sure the story telling is rusty. Is anyone is to blame for this it's editoral---plan and simple. They see layout--- or in "theory" they see them.

And i'm not sure about the pages order- but that Spider-Man/Hawkeye page looks more recent- am I correct on this?

If so- it's getting better IMO. ( i think the Spidey is awesome- i like the semen webs myself :) )

M.

I like the spidey myself, and I concede that this takes the Ultimates along the lines of the other avengers books.

Sorry to be premptively repietitive, I was still writing and accidently posted so I had to go back and edit.

[Phatman]

I am not clueless, I just disagree. No I don't put Mad up there with Mignola or Romita, that is why I didn't mention those names. But Mad is as good as Angel Medina, J. Scott Campbell, and the others I tried unsuccessfully to mention.

You did say he was as good as anybody working today-you mentioned him with Alex Ross, Dave Finch, Steve McNiven and Jim Lee. I would put Mad with guys like Cambell and Turner-all flash, no substance. Medina isn't great, but he can at least tell a story (at least he could in the stuff I've seen of his-Spidey and Hulk).

Ron Paul this is nothing personal. I am more careful about what I spend today than I ever have been before. I have not been involved with DC since the beginning of Infinate Crisis, and I left Marvel at the beginning of Civil War. I try to keep up by stealing glimpses in the trades and GN at Barnes and Noble, but I won't spend my dollar.

All books evolve for better or worse. I just think we as a collective whole we can be overly critical. No matter what your view, comics are extremely subjective. Remeber that as a creator you may have a more intuitive eye, but with that comes a much more critical stance.


I have no problem with what anybody buys or offers up as their opinion. However, just because you have an opinion on some art doesn't mean it's a correct or an educated analysis-that's all I'm saying. Again, this isn't personal, but you are wrong regardless of what you think or feel on this topic. Art is subjective to it's audience, but not in critica