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JJ McKool
09-18-2007, 04:44 AM
I like debating it, cuz everybody has an opinion, and there is no objective truth. That said, who's the best artist in the world, in your opinion? I think I made a thread like this before, but this time, state your reasons, and feel free to debate for or against anyone. Pretty much no rules here. Alive or dead.

I'll probably defend somebody or choose somebody later, but I'm thinkin about it right now.

Christopher G Toth
09-18-2007, 05:15 AM
On my top list would be David Finch, Michael Turner, Joe Mad , Gabriele Dell' Otto, there art is top notch, great artist all of them. :thumbs:

JJ McKool
09-18-2007, 05:51 AM
No seriously, think about it, pick one. You can always change your mind, but if there is a rule, it's only pick one.

Spacious Interior
09-18-2007, 06:36 AM
You know me...... I'm always gonna' pick Jae Lee.

Christopher G Toth
09-18-2007, 07:40 AM
David Finch he is the one

BKMDog
09-18-2007, 07:44 AM
If I had to pick just one, all-around, I'd vote for Alex Toth.

Creative, draws well - men, gorgeous women, kids, animals---any setting or time period, yet has a distinctive approach that goes beyond just understanding the academics doing art / comics. Few if any artists are better storytellers or effective designers. Executed well on any kind of story.

Yeah, I "like" the guys work, and there are artists who I find more appealing, but Toth is the example for others to follow, IMHO.

jakebilbao
09-18-2007, 07:45 AM
the one! the only! the incomparable! Mr............ Ladies and Gentlemen.........hold on tight here it comes.............Mr............ ladies, back up a bit, ok further more please.......thank you.... Mr...............

.............Bryan Hitch! :bounce: :bounce:

*applause*
*the crowd goes wild!* :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Toyandgadgetguy
09-18-2007, 08:26 AM
I wish I had one that I could say was best... there are just so many flavors out there.

Not due to his recent re-popularity either, but I'm a huge fan of Frank Cho. The guy is just amazing.

Best should be changed to favorite. Even then, I couldn't settle. They change with my mood.

JJ McKool
09-18-2007, 10:01 AM
NEVER!!! No, art is subjective to your opinion. It's sort of like best song or music act, there really isn't one, but you can argue it, and some people can argue it really well. It doesn't make a different which word you use, they both end up meaning the same thing, favourite just kinda seems like a puss word.

Mike225
09-18-2007, 10:04 AM
Mignola!

Justice41
09-18-2007, 10:31 AM
Byrne.......

kdmelrose
09-18-2007, 10:32 AM
Bernard Krigstein.

Supporting evidence (http://es.geocities.com/thegweb/berniekrigstein1.html):

http://www.timemachinego.com/linkmachinego/images/master-race-krigstein.jpg

Ian Ascher
09-18-2007, 10:34 AM
Walt Simonson.

Look at his Manhunter work for DC. Amazing stuff.

Phatman
09-18-2007, 11:29 AM
JJ:

You just did this same thread in June ;). Here's my answer from then:

In no particular order:

Will Eisner, John Buscema, Neal Adams, Alex Toth, Ross Andru, Gil Kane, Dave Cockrum, Mike Mignola, John Romita (Sr. and Jr.), Steve Ditko, Todd McFarlane, Erik Larson, Jae Lee, Simon Bisley, Ariel Olivetti, Steve Dillon, Steve Skroce, Bill Sienkiewicz, Alex Maleev, Frank Quitely, Mike Zeck, Gene Ha, Brent Anderson, Bernie Wrightson, Travis Charest, Geoff Darrow, Cully Hamner, Leilnil Yu, Mark Texiera, Doug Mahnke, Ed McGuinness, Don Kramer, J.G. Jones, Claudio Castellini, Carlos Pacheco, Walt Simonson, Howard Chaykin, Sam Kieth and Jack "the King" Kirby.

As great as all of them are, I have three others that I consider my holy-comics-trinity growing up that I put on a special pedestal: George Perez, John Byrne and Frank Miller.

(I left Cary Nord and Ryan Ottley off the list because it looks too much like sucking up around here-great artists)

Naming one as the greatest is not possible. They each provide(d) excellent work that influences me and inspires me as to what comic book art should be.

Grande
09-18-2007, 11:38 AM
John Buscema

BIGROD
09-18-2007, 11:45 AM
the one! the only! the incomparable! Mr............ Ladies and Gentlemen.........hold on tight here it comes.............Mr............ ladies, back up a bit, ok further more please.......thank you.... Mr...............

.............Bryan Hitch! :bounce: :bounce:

*applause*
*the crowd goes wild!* :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

I'm enjoying Ivan Reis's work a lot more than Hitch's these days.

Mike225
09-18-2007, 11:50 AM
http://www.timemachinego.com/linkmachinego/images/master-race-krigstein.jpgPull the strings! Pull the strings!

jmassie
09-18-2007, 12:15 PM
Bernard Krigstein.

Supporting evidence (http://es.geocities.com/thegweb/berniekrigstein1.html):

http://www.timemachinego.com/linkmachinego/images/master-race-krigstein.jpg


I Like you. You have taste. Krigstein was a hell of a painter as well. That whole last page of 'Master Race' was a major moment in comic book history. He and Johnny Craig are my favorite EC guys. I'd also like to put in a vote for Charles Burns, and Chris Ware. As far as drawing chops go, they can take bryan Hitch and all these other people mentioned working today to school.

JJ McKool
09-18-2007, 01:20 PM
This thread hasn't exactly turned out to how I wanted it to.

JJ:

You just did this same thread in June ;).

Naming one as the greatest is not possible. They each provide(d) excellent work that influences me and inspires me as to what comic book art should be.

I know I made this before. I was hoping this one would be more debate oriented, that's why I said pick one. So in an effort to make you all try to defend your artists, I'll throw some of the faults of a few of the artists mentioned:

Michael Turner

His shading is terrible (non-existent) and he barely puts anything out, with all these huge ambitions and none that have made any real progress. Sorry, low blow, I know, he's definitely a victim of circumstance. Oh, and all the characters he draws look the same save for the usuals: gender, costume, basic hair cut and overall size. Other than that, they're basically clones of one another.

You know me...... I'm always gonna' pick Jae Lee.

His art is too graphic, which is odd when it has so much shading to it. I mean graphic, as in flat, like sometimes his characters don't look like people, they look like just these flat drawings, and I don't like any of the detail he adds to pieces, it seems like it's always the same type of lines he does, and never anything new.

If I had to pick just one, all-around, I'd vote for Alex Toth.

Oh, lord, I'm gonna get a chewing for this. Sorry in advance. His art wasn't really appealing beyond the young kid demographic, it's too simple, his lines didn't vary much, and overall, he really seemed too much like just like a cartoonist or animator than an artist. Plus he wasn't terribly innovative, which is a big one when talking about older artists, and I don't honestly care for his storytelling, it's kinda bland. I dunno though, it could be that he really was one of the greats, the average guys just sucked and my perspective is all skewed. Again, sorry.

Mignola!

Kind of a boring addition imho. I don't mind his stuff and it can amplify a story, but it's a little bland and flat.

Byrne.......
I gotta ask why on this one. He's a fairly decent writer, but an artist, not that he's bad or anything, but I don't see anything new that he brought to the table. Could you explain it or show me some examples of what you really like with him?

Woot. Again, not really trying to downplay these artists, just light some fire underneath yous guys, defend your opinions! Oh and if I didn't include the artist, either you wrote too many down, or there's not much to disagree with, plus I don't wanna spend too much time on this right now.

Mike225
09-18-2007, 01:21 PM
Kind of a boring addition imho. I don't mind his stuff and it can amplify a story, but it's a little bland and flat. If you don't like Mignola, you don't like comic books.

JJ McKool
09-18-2007, 01:23 PM
That's a bold assumption. Wanna back it up rather than just being a fascist?

EDIT: Whoops, that may have come across as more negative than I meant it to. Nonetheless, it stands.

Mike225
09-18-2007, 01:24 PM
Anymore bold than asking for opinions then refuting them?

JJ McKool
09-18-2007, 01:26 PM
Twas trying to emphasize the assumption part more than the bold. Nothing wrong with a little bold, just defend it if you're gonna put that out there.

Mike225
09-18-2007, 01:29 PM
Mignola is an artist. He can do ultra-detailed or minimalist with equal effect. His style is unique and his storytelling is top notch. And it's pretty.

jmassie
09-18-2007, 01:44 PM
JJ McCool On Alex Toth-----"Oh, lord, I'm gonna get a chewing for this. Sorry in advance. His art wasn't really appealing beyond the young kid demographic, it's too simple, his lines didn't vary much, and overall, he really seemed too much like just like a cartoonist or animator than an artist. Plus he wasn't terribly innovative, which is a big one when talking about older artists, and I don't honestly care for his storytelling, it's kinda bland. I dunno though, it could be that he really was one of the greats, the average guys just sucked and my perspective is all skewed. Again, sorry."

Dude. He's one of the greats and your perspective sucks and is all skewed. I can't accept your apology for that one. Young kid demographic??????Not terribly innovative?????Bland?????????What the FUCK!!



:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: what????

Phatman
09-18-2007, 02:08 PM
JJ:

Attacking Mignola, Toth or Byrne shows you really don't have the art education or point of reference to have this discussion intelligently.

Mignola is simply great. This is not just an "I like this or that" debate on style. You can argue that his work isn't your favorite or your cup of tea, but you can't intelligently argue that his work is 'bland" or "flat". There are basic fundamentals of comicbook storytelling that he has mastered that are a matter of fact, not opinion or conjecture. Again, you can say you don't like something, but to deny an artist with his level of proficiency shows a lack of education, vision, and appreciation on your part that somewhat negates your opinion as valid or worthy of consideration.

Toth inspired just about every professional in comics with his work. Your statements on Toth are so revealing to your complete lack of any comic book art history or influence that the rest of your statements mean absolutely nothing.

On Byrne, I'd suggest you check out a title called "X-men" or this character called "Wolverine"-he didn't invent either, but pretty much made them what they are today. His work on Fantastic Four and Superman wasn't bad either. I haven't even mentioned that he is a master draftsman and storyteller as well one of the fastest artists the industry has ever seen.

I'm not trying to beat you up, JJ, but your are really missing the boat and don't really have the scope or education to argue this stuff on anything but a surface level. Sorry, but "I don't like this" doesn't really cut it in any discussion of art, film or literature.

jakebilbao
09-18-2007, 02:20 PM
yeah, good thing Hitch is not on your hate list because I'd bring down a whole can of whoop-ass on you!!!! :man:



heheheheheehe just kidding, jj, dude, i don't really know why you started this thread, maybe you're bored or what but, saying bad things about favorite artists of other people is like saying to a dog lover that his dog is ugly. and we have this unwritten rule in the dog-world, that you can insult me with all the insults in the world but if you say one bad thing about my dog, i'll bring a whole can of whoop-ass down on you. get it?

Mike225
09-18-2007, 02:34 PM
I can't believe I forgot to mention Tim Sale.

The Dag
09-18-2007, 02:45 PM
John Romita jr ... the guy can do 12 comics a month and all look good..

Justice41
09-18-2007, 03:03 PM
Thanks Phat. Saved me the trouble of chewing out JJ. Oh and JJ the fact I only put Byrne's name down as someone put Mignola's should have told you something about these guys.

JJ McKool
09-18-2007, 03:17 PM
JJ:

Attacking Mignola, Toth or Byrne shows you really don't have the art education or point of reference to have this discussion intelligently.

Mignola is simply great. This is not just an "I like this or that" debate on style. You can argue that his work isn't your favorite or your cup of tea, but you can't intelligently argue that his work is 'bland" or "flat". There are basic fundamentals of comicbook storytelling that he has mastered that are a matter of fact, not opinion or conjecture. Again, you can say you don't like something, but to deny an artist with his level of proficiency shows a lack of education, vision, and appreciation on your part that somewhat negates your opinion as valid or worthy of consideration.

Toth inspired just about every professional in comics with his work. Your statements on Toth are so revealing to your complete lack of any comic book art history or influence that the rest of your statements mean absolutely nothing.

On Byrne, I'd suggest you check out a title called "X-men" or this character called "Wolverine"-he didn't invent either, but pretty much made them what they are today. His work on Fantastic Four and Superman wasn't bad either. I haven't even mentioned that he is a master draftsman and storyteller as well one of the fastest artists the industry has ever seen.

I'm not trying to beat you up, JJ, but your are really missing the boat and don't really have the scope or education to argue this stuff on anything but a surface level. Sorry, but "I don't like this" doesn't really cut it in any discussion of art, film or literature.

OK, there's a level that brushes off my shoulder, but I'm not Jesus, there is a certain amount where anger tends to override my system. Saying "You're not educated enough," is an extremely pretentious and dick-headed thing to say. Your attacking my credentials to say this stuff, and I really need none. Simply having literacy, and a brain gives me enough credentials to say this stuff.

However, I wasn't trying to go in depth, I was trying to light just a small enough fire so that people would state some reasons as to why they think that artist deserves the title of best artist. I'm not going to go in depth and pick apart any of these artists right off the bat, how much would that piss people off? That's not the point at all, I said it multiple times already, I want people to defend their artists. I want a good honest debate. That so much to ask?

Seriously come on, I like all these artists, but do they all deserve the title? Give some points of reference, say specifics, talk about how putting the lighting a certain way emphasizes what they want you to see, talk about the detail as a storytelling tool, or the lack of detail as one. There are tons of things you could talk about in each one of these artists, brushing the surface was kinda what I was trying to do with my post.

Phatman
09-18-2007, 03:19 PM
yeah, good thing Hitch is not on your hate list because I'd bring down a whole can of whoop-ass on you!!!! :man:

Just to get your goat, Jake:

Hitch admits to tracing photographs from magazines just like Land. I give Bryan credit for admiting this (I think the book he says this is Interviews with Comic's Greatest Artists) and explaining why/when he does this. I think he is very talented, but I don't think his work is evolving (his Authority stuff and his JLA are incredible work). I know he is a strong influence in your work, but don't set him as your standard or "goal"-you can do even better.

Justice41 on a sidenote: I've seen several entries for a "Submariner art contest" around here? Why the hell haven't you allready won this?

JJ McKool
09-18-2007, 03:20 PM
Thanks Phat. Saved me the trouble of chewing out JJ. Oh and JJ the fact I only put Byrne's name down as someone put Mignola's should have told you something about these guys.

There is no artist anywhere that deserves that kind of recognition. Yes, I know he's good, but why do you think he's good. That's my point.

Christopher G Toth
09-18-2007, 03:23 PM
I wish I was related to Alex Toth that would be very cool :thumbs:

jakebilbao
09-18-2007, 03:24 PM
Just to get your goat, Jake:

Hitch admits to tracing photographs from magazines just like Land. I give Bryan credit for admiting this (I think the book he says this is Interviews with Comic's Greatest Artists) and explaining why/when he does this. I think he is very talented, but I don't think his work is evolving (his Authority stuff and his JLA are incredible work). I know he is a strong influence in your work, but don't set him as your standard or "goal"-you can do even better.

Justice41 on a sidenote: I've seen several entries for a "Submariner art contest" around here? Why the hell haven't you allready won this?
that sir is BlAsphemy!!!!!!!!! :man:






really? :blink: he copies? :blink: darn, didn't know that. are you sure he said trace? or he just copies references? trace? really? darn, maybe just the backgrounds........ really? :cry:

Buckyrig
09-18-2007, 03:26 PM
Just to get your goat, Jake:

Hitch admits to tracing photographs from magazines just like Land. I give Bryan credit for admiting this (I think the book he says this is Interviews with Comic's Greatest Artists) and explaining why/when he does this. I think he is very talented, but I don't think his work is evolving (his Authority stuff and his JLA are incredible work). I know he is a strong influence in your work, but don't set him as your standard or "goal"-you can do even better.

Was it figures? Or just buildings? I seem to remember it being about cityscapes, what have you.

jakebilbao
09-18-2007, 03:30 PM
see, maybe just cityscapes! :cry: but really? trace? :huh:

Phatman
09-18-2007, 03:31 PM
really? :blink: he copies? :blink: darn, didn't know that. are you sure he said trace? or he just copies references? trace? really? darn, maybe just the backgrounds........ really? :cry:

He said that he does it with some background stuff and extreme close-ups of faces-they give him some trouble, so he shortcuts this a bit. I've heard people that defend him on this and flat out deny it, but I've read it more than one place-I can search out the reference.

The-Spirit
09-18-2007, 03:34 PM
For me either Jack Kirby or Will Eisner, depends on what day of the week it is.

jakebilbao
09-18-2007, 03:34 PM
NO! for the love of God man! don't show it to me! :slap:









i'm easily depressed! :cry: :cry: :cry:

Nitecrawlah2
09-18-2007, 03:40 PM
Hmmm... David Mazzuchelli.

jmassie
09-18-2007, 03:46 PM
Hmmm... David Mazzuchelli.


You have taste too.

JJ McKool
09-18-2007, 03:47 PM
Wait, is that the first time Will Eisner got mentioned in this thread?

Mignola is an artist. He can do ultra-detailed or minimalist with equal effect. His style is unique and his storytelling is top notch. And it's pretty.
Ah-ha, this is the kind of thing I was looking for. In all honesty, I haven't been a huge fan of his style taste-wise, but that is true, he does that stuff pretty well. I wish he would opt for more fluidity, but I've haven't seen all his stuff so I can't say much with huge authority.

One thing specifically, or rather a couple things that might opt him out of having the best artist title, is how influential is he, and how versatile as far as characters? I mean, he's gotten a lot of different stuff to do since Helboy took off as far as covers here and there and whatnot, but before Hellboy hit it big, publishers were kind of reluctant, were they not? His style is in the dark and moody range, and he just doesn't fit as well with a Superman or a Spiderman.

jmassie
09-18-2007, 03:50 PM
Wait, is that the first time Will Eisner got mentioned in this thread?


Ah-ha, this is the kind of thing I was looking for. In all honesty, I haven't been a huge fan of his style taste-wise, but that is true, he does that stuff pretty well. I wish he would opt for more fluidity, but I've haven't seen all his stuff so I can't say much with huge authority.

One thing specifically, or rather a couple things that might opt him out of having the best artist title, is how influential is he, and how versatile as far as characters? I mean, he's gotten a lot of different stuff to do since Helboy took off as far as covers here and there and whatnot, but before Hellboy hit it big, publishers were kind of reluctant, were they not? His style is in the dark and moody range, and he just doesn't fit as well with a Superman or a Spiderman.

He got work with both Marvel and DC constantly before he was doing Hellboy. So they were not reluctant about him, really.

jmassie
09-18-2007, 03:54 PM
Gipi is good, since we are talking about people other than Americans.

GARAGE BAND (http://www.firstsecondbooks.net/BMR/garageBandBMR.html#four)

Phatman
09-18-2007, 04:08 PM
Wait, is that the first time Will Eisner got mentioned in this thread?

First name on my list:

Will Eisner, John Buscema, Neal Adams, Alex Toth, Ross Andru, Gil Kane, Dave Cockrum, Mike Mignola, John Romita (Sr. and Jr.), Steve Ditko, Todd McFarlane, Erik Larson, Jae Lee, Simon Bisley, Ariel Olivetti, Steve Dillon, Steve Skroce, Bill Sienkiewicz, Alex Maleev, Frank Quitely, Mike Zeck, Gene Ha, Brent Anderson, Bernie Wrightson, Travis Charest, Geoff Darrow, Cully Hamner, Leilnil Yu, Mark Texiera, Doug Mahnke, Ed McGuinness, Don Kramer, J.G. Jones, Claudio Castellini, Carlos Pacheco, Walt Simonson, Howard Chaykin, Sam Kieth and Jack "the King" Kirby.

As great as all of them are, I have three others that I consider my holy-comics-trinity growing up that I put on a special pedestal: George Perez, John Byrne and Frank Miller.

(I left Cary Nord and Ryan Ottley off the list because it looks too much like sucking up around here-great artists)[/I]

...and by the way JJ, I'm not saying you're stupid or unintelligent, just uninformed and ignorant of the topic at hand. Nothing personal.

xombey
09-18-2007, 04:16 PM
I can't believe I forgot to mention Tim Sale.
imitation Miller

Mike225
09-18-2007, 04:19 PM
imitation MillerNice red box you got there.

xombey
09-18-2007, 04:19 PM
Wait, is that the first time Will Eisner got mentioned in this thread?


Ah-ha, this is the kind of thing I was looking for. In all honesty, I haven't been a huge fan of his style taste-wise, but that is true, he does that stuff pretty well. I wish he would opt for more fluidity, but I've haven't seen all his stuff so I can't say much with huge authority.

One thing specifically, or rather a couple things that might opt him out of having the best artist title, is how influential is he, and how versatile as far as characters? I mean, he's gotten a lot of different stuff to do since Helboy took off as far as covers here and there and whatnot, but before Hellboy hit it big, publishers were kind of reluctant, were they not? His style is in the dark and moody range, and he just doesn't fit as well with a Superman or a Spiderman.hellboy's a lot of fun to read. and the pages are very graphic and dynamic. but mignola uses a lot of stock poses and imagery.

xombey
09-18-2007, 04:20 PM
Nice red box you got there.
i don't even know what those mean...

Mike225
09-18-2007, 04:21 PM
It's a warning to everyone else.

Newt
09-18-2007, 04:25 PM
With important real-world consequences, such as....

Help me out here, Mike.

JamieRoberts
09-18-2007, 04:25 PM
Sean Phillips. Pure storytelling, with grit.

Mike225
09-18-2007, 04:26 PM
With important real-world consequences, such as....

Help me out here, Mike.Sure.

The person with the red box is generally full of shit and need not be listened to.

JamieRoberts
09-18-2007, 04:29 PM
Sure.

The person with the red box is generally full of shit and need not be listened to.
http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1390906.jpg

Mike225
09-18-2007, 04:32 PM
http://static.sky.com/images/pictures/1390906.jpgSee? I don't know who that guy is, but I know he's full of shit.

Mike225
09-18-2007, 04:33 PM
Anyway, you guys were talking about your favorite artists?

xombey
09-18-2007, 04:53 PM
wow.

ok....

Toyandgadgetguy
09-18-2007, 05:08 PM
Anyway, you guys were talking about your favorite artists?

No, no, no. I'm certain that can't be right. I think JJ says that it has to be the bestest. I almost thought he was gonna suggest Charest for a moment there and then dare us to refute it. :p

Ian Ascher
09-18-2007, 05:14 PM
Wish I could find a specific page from Walt Simonsons Manhunter to post up here. The comics are about 30 years old but if you look at his panel layout and draftsmanship they are outstanding and well before his time.

Mwynn
09-18-2007, 05:38 PM
http://www.abitnice.com/mancomb%20copy%201.jpg

JJ McKool
09-18-2007, 05:43 PM
No, no, no. I'm certain that can't be right. I think JJ says that it has to be the bestest. I almost thought he was gonna suggest Charest for a moment there and then dare us to refute it. :p
Some people are getting it some aren't. It was "inspired" by that thread, in the sense that I was hoping people would show examples, talk about specific works, y'know, like an actual discussion thread. Not just a place where a bunch of people post their fav artists, but where they defend em. I said best, because it kinda implies beyond just what your tastes are.

For instance, I don't particularly like Kirby's style, but I am hugely appreciative for what he did do for comics, and the way he really inspired everyone around and after him, either indirectly or directly. His dynamism and energy are just nuts, and have been imitated, but for a long time, that's all they were, which kinda sucks, but what're you gonna do when all the publisher wants to see is Jack Kirby and you aren't? I used to not understand it, but then the more I saw of his art, and compared it, read about him and the artists of the time, the more I got it. This isn't a hypothetical position at all either, he really was amazing. But that's not to say there weren't certain limits to his style. It didn't translate as well into other genres, good, but not as good.

kdmelrose
09-18-2007, 05:49 PM
Ahem. I showed an example.

Mike225
09-18-2007, 05:56 PM
http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/151/mignola_deadman.gif

http://www.lambiek.net/artists/m/mignola/mignola.jpg

http://www.ubcfumetti.com/international/dh_dd1.jpg

Wayne Drake
09-18-2007, 06:00 PM
Jack Kirby

Wayne Drake
09-18-2007, 06:03 PM
Jack Kirby

Darwyn Cooke and Bruce Timm just sprang to mine, but I can't change my mind now cuz I walready said Kirby. Just got the FF Omnibus 2, that thing is crackling with energy.

JJ McKool
09-18-2007, 06:04 PM
Ahem. I showed an example.
Yes, yes you did, and thank you. You were one who got it, sort of, you didn't really explain it, but good nonetheless. Sadly, I rather disagree with that artist choice. Maybe it's more due to the printing than anything though. It's an effective story, but it's not the most effective I've read, y'know? The panels you did show were really cool, though I don't know, wouldn't it make more sense for him to fall harder than that?.

MARK A ROBINSON
09-18-2007, 06:23 PM
I dunno if i can pigeon hole one guy for that...

but overall- in my day ( which spans around 35 years) i would have to go out there and say all out package deal artist-

Oliver Copiel.

that dude is amazing. And he's only getting better. If you look at who he's worked with and for-Travis is super amazing but his stuff registers kinda stiff some times to me.

it's beautiful and inspiring- but when I think of comics i usually think of moving images (storyboards) and Copiel is a master of movement. Might be too cartoony for some peoples tastes- but it's comics...

he's covering the bases for me-

his super heroes look ...super.

he does amazing detailed small work. (those little panels kill me)

his splashes are awesome.

his storytelling is consistantly interesting to look at...i think this is because european comics gets alot in on the page helps...I've seen him do 12 panel pages that look better than guys who do 3 panel widescreen spread splashes.

he's got great character acting going on ( i think i read somewhere that he worked for Disney...that would explain alot.

and he draws HOT CHICKS. in every nationality and they actually look like they are different nationalities.


And after seeing house of M and Legion- all those characters- everyone having their own feel-

I'd love to see him on Super Man or Spider-Man.

impressive.

i'm also a high on Paul Smith.Eric Canete.Leniul Yu.Jim Starlin.Edwardo Risso.Marcelo Fruscin.Bruce Timm.

i know i missed the point of this post by limiting it ONE artist...but i can't do it...

i'm just a big fan of artists who make things look like they are moving...that's the art of comic books is to trick the eye the pages are turning themselves.

two bits.

M.

kdmelrose
09-18-2007, 06:24 PM
Maybe it's more due to the printing than anything though. It's an effective story, but it's not the most effective I've read, y'know? The panels you did show were really cool, though I don't know, wouldn't it make more sense for him to fall harder than that?.

:laugh:

Krigstein's "Master Race" is often considered one of those pivotal moments in comics, when the medium took a leap forward. That's not even a comment on the weight of the story itself, but on the storytelling technique.

Imboden
09-18-2007, 06:53 PM
John Romita, Sr.

He drew MY definitive Spider-Man/Peter Parker and cast. They all had distinct looks and people didn't just look like "a brown haired guy", or a "red-headed chick" or "(fill in the blank)".

And these two old covers kick ass.

'Nuff said.

Multisync143
09-18-2007, 07:00 PM
Greg Land # 1



http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/JohnByrne2/2007-08-04_091006_GhostRider.jpg


JOHN BRYNE # 2

Ian Ascher
09-18-2007, 07:16 PM
http://www.abitnice.com/mancomb%20copy%201.jpg


That's not the page I had in mind... hell... I dont even think that's Simonson art.

Wasabe
09-18-2007, 07:35 PM
I think if I was as good as HAL FOSTER I could get published.

Justice41
09-18-2007, 07:52 PM
There is no artist anywhere that deserves that kind of recognition. Yes, I know he's good, but why do you think he's good. That's my point.
You had to be there JJ. I base my thinking on who gave me the most joy when I was a kid reading comics. It was Byrne all the way. he drew almost at the same time almost everyone of my fave books X-men, Marvel Team Up, Iron Fist, Sporadic issues of FF and Avengers, Marvel Two in One. The whole Black Goliath and Thing storyline is classic. One of my favorite books was a Giant sized Hulk and Spiderman he did.
But All that needs be said is X-men. My next guy would be Buscema.

Justice41
09-18-2007, 08:14 PM
that sir is BlAsphemy!!!!!!!!! :man:






really? :blink: he copies? :blink: darn, didn't know that. are you sure he said trace? or he just copies references? trace? really? darn, maybe just the backgrounds........ really? :cry:
I've read that article, he said he copies not trace.

Mr.Musgrave
09-18-2007, 08:16 PM
You had to be there JJ. I base my thinking on who gave me the most joy when I was a kid reading comics. It was Byrne all the way. he drew almost at the same time almost everyone of my fave books X-men, Marvel Team Up, Iron Fist, Sporadic issues of FF and Avengers, Marvel Two in One. The whole Black Goliath and Thing storyline is classic. One of my favorite books was a Giant sized Hulk and Spiderman he did.
But All that needs be said is X-men. My next guy would be Buscema.

That's the thing. Byrne was very good back in the day. His current art is almost amateur hour.

Justice41
09-18-2007, 08:23 PM
Yeah, There is a line in King of new York where Chris Walken asks Larry Fishburne why he never went to see him in jail and Larry said who wants to see you behind bars. This is how I look at Byrne. I don't look at any of his new stuff so that his older stuff remains as a good memory. Why Tarnish it.

Mike225
09-18-2007, 08:28 PM
Byrne just needs a kick in the ass. Or he needs to have to work so that he can pay the bills again.

Justice41
09-18-2007, 08:42 PM
What Byrne needs is a dictator like Jim Shooter who will tell him what to do. Byrne has been allowed to slack off. He, at this point is running off past glory, which he unfortunately is eroding. Not to me, because I pay no mind to his rants. If he was under contract and the pages he slacked on were sent back for redo's, he would either man up or wuss out, but he isn't being taken to task.

Toyandgadgetguy
09-18-2007, 09:15 PM
Some people are getting it some aren't. It was "inspired" by that thread, in the sense that I was hoping people would show examples, talk about specific works, y'know, like an actual discussion thread. Not just a place where a bunch of people post their fav artists, but where they defend em. I said best, because it kinda implies beyond just what your tastes are.

For instance, I don't particularly like Kirby's style, but I am hugely appreciative for what he did do for comics, and the way he really inspired everyone around and after him, either indirectly or directly. His dynamism and energy are just nuts, and have been imitated, but for a long time, that's all they were, which kinda sucks, but what're you gonna do when all the publisher wants to see is Jack Kirby and you aren't? I used to not understand it, but then the more I saw of his art, and compared it, read about him and the artists of the time, the more I got it. This isn't a hypothetical position at all either, he really was amazing. But that's not to say there weren't certain limits to his style. It didn't translate as well into other genres, good, but not as good.


Oh, I got it. I'm still gonna have fun with it, though. If 2/3 of the posts can be "the best is:", then so can mine. I explained to you why I can't pick a best... but I don't think you got it. My taste varies. Rob Schraab (well, his character, Scud) was mentioned in another thread. His lines suited that character very well. His style was 'zany' (for lack of a better term). I don't think it would have worked well with a Batman book. Mignola is all about blacks and blockiness. He'd be ok on Batman, but not so much on Liberty Meadows (although that might be fun for one flashback scene).

Your thread is a good one, and your concept for evoking a good discussion is sound. I like it, and wholeheartedly approve. Now stop ruining my fun.

The Anti-crest
09-18-2007, 10:21 PM
dave mckean or Renzo Podesta

http://www.lambiek.net/artists/m/mckean_dave/mckean_dave1.jpg

http://a622.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/96/l_6728e57285f29f4dad7b6b67baaec415.jpg

Justice41
09-18-2007, 10:38 PM
Justice41 on a sidenote: I've seen several entries for a "Submariner art contest" around here? Why the hell haven't you allready won this?
I stopped posting art here. It became no fun. Those old submissions were my last.

The Anti-crest
09-18-2007, 11:17 PM
Manara is good, yes.

jakebilbao
09-19-2007, 12:53 AM
I've read that article, he said he copies not trace.
SEE!!!!!!!!! BRYAN HITCH LIVES!!!!!!!!! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Multisync143
09-19-2007, 01:04 AM
That's the thing. Byrne was very good back in the day. His current art is almost amateur hour.

Check out his latest commissions.

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=16

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/JohnByrne2/2007-08-04_091006_GhostRider.jpg

that's 2007 and it doesn't look amateur to me.

Justice41
09-19-2007, 01:18 AM
John Byrne at his worst is still better than most of us here including guys working pro. He's done it all already, he has nothing to prove which is also another reason I believe he doesn't do his best anymore. Thanks for the link, my JB art folder is kinda small.

Multisync143
09-19-2007, 01:30 AM
John Byrne at his worst is still better than most of us here including guys working pro. He's done it all already, he has nothing to prove which is also another reason I believe he doesn't do his best anymore. Thanks for the link, my JB art folder is kinda small.

Well thats one thing we agree on. :laugh:

Justice41
09-19-2007, 01:33 AM
Well thats one thing we agree on. :laugh:
Oh don't take my other persona on the chit chat seriously. I just like cursing and messing with folks.......It's the devil in me. Or is it me Iidish Blood?

jmassie
09-19-2007, 09:19 AM
Daniel Clowes.....That should be the last post. He is the greatest living cartoonist. Really. Better than anyone working anywhere on any comic book.

JJ McKool
09-19-2007, 09:53 AM
Srsly?
http://www.betaparticle.com/blog/images/eightball/8_12.jpg
That's what you call the best artist? I dunno man, I, I, I don't know what to say to that. He can tell stories, but I definitely have to disagree with you there.

Which does make me wonder, what are the specific criteria that one could put together in order to narrow it down to a handful of artists?

Some stuff I would think'd be:
1. How influential are they?
2. How appealing is the art to a wide range of people?
3. How well can they tell a story? What elements do they use to drive the story?
4. What are there artistic achievements?

What would you take away or add to the list? Already I think we could eliminate a few artists from the list that have been mentioned, but maybe not.

Mr.Musgrave
09-19-2007, 10:02 AM
that's 2007 and it doesn't look amateur to me.


Does to me. His current stuff is filled with very obvious anatomy and perspective mistakes.

Scott Story
09-19-2007, 10:10 AM
John Buscema
Gil Kane
John Romita Jr.
Mike Mignola

down21
09-19-2007, 12:37 PM
I love this list. Phatman's covered it all pretty much

"Will Eisner, John Buscema, Neal Adams, Alex Toth, Ross Andru, Gil Kane, Dave Cockrum, Mike Mignola, John Romita (Sr. and Jr.), Steve Ditko, Todd McFarlane, Erik Larson, Jae Lee, Simon Bisley, Ariel Olivetti, Steve Dillon, Steve Skroce, Bill Sienkiewicz, Alex Maleev, Frank Quitely, Mike Zeck, Gene Ha, Brent Anderson, Bernie Wrightson, Travis Charest, Geoff Darrow, Cully Hamner, Leilnil Yu, Mark Texiera, Doug Mahnke, Ed McGuinness, Don Kramer, J.G. Jones, Claudio Castellini, Carlos Pacheco, Walt Simonson, Howard Chaykin, Sam Kieth and Jack "the King" Kirby...George Perez, John Byrne and Frank Miller."

I also like Duncan Fegredo and Tim Vigil.

Bisley's my favorite though because of his use of blacks, composition and detail.

Here's the Wally Wood quote re tracing

"Never draw anything you can copy, never copy anything you can trace, never trace anything you can cut out and paste up." -Wally Wood ...

infamous1
09-19-2007, 12:49 PM
Jim Lee.

jmassie
09-19-2007, 12:52 PM
Srsly?
http://www.betaparticle.com/blog/images/eightball/8_12.jpg
That's what you call the best artist? I dunno man, I, I, I don't know what to say to that. He can tell stories, but I definitely have to disagree with you there.

Which does make me wonder, what are the specific criteria that one could put together in order to narrow it down to a handful of artists?

Some stuff I would think'd be:
1. How influential are they?
2. How appealing is the art to a wide range of people?
3. How well can they tell a story? What elements do they use to drive the story?
4. What are there artistic achievements?

What would you take away or add to the list? Already I think we could eliminate a few artists from the list that have been mentioned, but maybe not.

Yes seriously....

as for your criteria.
1. He is the father of a lot that is happening in the graphic novel movement today.
2. He had a comic book in The New York times Magazine this month. That reaches a fairly "Wide range of people" most of them having never set foot in a comic book store. Getting New Readers...wow what a concept.
3. Lots of people would argue that he is one of the greatest storytellers to ever work in this medium.
4. I can't even begin to list his 'Artistic Achievements. Here's one: When I read Ghost World when I was 16 I knew I wanted to draw comics until I died.

So yes seriously. You are a real twit.

Mike225
09-19-2007, 12:59 PM
JJ McKool on fluidity in art:

What? All comics are static images, that makes no sense.
Seriously, man. What the hell?

captainarian
09-19-2007, 02:25 PM
no oldies in mah list, i can't name one, i love'em all so here's my list:

Frank frazzeta- JIM LEE- ADAM HUGHES (his women)- TRAVIS CHAREST (u must die if u don't like him)- Frank cho (probably one the best women drawers in the world)-
travor scott, scott clarl, brett booth (can never identify their art, they're so alike but i love'em all)-
JAE LEE (shit his transformers/g.i.joe blew me away)
-pat lee (as long as he does robots)
- michael turner (as long as he draws cute teens, his men suck)
-marc silvestri
-erik larsen (before he became a kirby rip-off, when he had his own style :mad: )
-david finch (before his drawing method changed and turned into some kind of a 14th century penciling and inking :mad: )
-simone binachi (ahhh master)
-greg land
-brian hytch (you can't hate this freak)
-pacheco (the super man artist? awesome)
-ed benes (beautiful just awesome)
-al rio (kinkiness)
-j.scott campbell
- rob liefeld (yeah so i like him... sue me :sure: )
-stephan platt
--ryan otley
-adriano batista
-ron bagley (the spider man artist i guess)
-- the new daredevil artist and also the artist of immortal iron fist, i don't know their names.
-bill tuci
-francis yu
-faust artist (crazy fuckin lovable freak)
-jake bilbao :har:
-emily stone
there are more but that's all i can think of now.

Newt
09-19-2007, 05:32 PM
Nobody's brought him up, so I'll throw out R. Crumb. Excellent draftsman, stylistically versatile but always recognizable, probably the most influential post-comics code artist besides Kirby, influential in artistic genres outside of comics, practically invented many of the current non-adventure comics genres, may be the single best known comics artist to the non-comics-reading public, brought an enormous new demographic into comics in the '60's and '70's. Beat that!

Mike225
09-19-2007, 06:00 PM
R. Crumb is a great artist. Unfortunately, everything else about him makes me sick.

Newt
09-19-2007, 06:08 PM
He's definitely a nasty, obnoxious, and repulsive man. Most of his comics are about what a nasty, obnoxious, repulsive man he is. But they're still great!

Mike225
09-19-2007, 06:10 PM
:yuk:

Buckyrig
09-19-2007, 06:10 PM
He's my uncle.

Newt
09-19-2007, 06:16 PM
Really?

Mike225
09-19-2007, 06:18 PM
Oh, for fuck's sake..!

Buckyrig
09-19-2007, 06:25 PM
Oh, for fuck's sake..!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Newt
09-19-2007, 07:33 PM
Also whoever draws the little 'Even you can be saved' comics that you always find laying atop the urinal at the Krystal. That guy's a genius.

jmassie
09-19-2007, 08:21 PM
Also whoever draws the little 'Even you can be saved' comics that you always find laying atop the urinal at the Krystal. That guy's a genius.

Jake Chick

Chick (http://www.chickcomics.com/)

I like Crumb too. He doesn't make me sick.

JJ McKool
09-20-2007, 12:59 AM
Yes seriously....

as for your criteria.
1. He is the father of a lot that is happening in the graphic novel movement today.
2. He had a comic book in The New York times Magazine this month. That reaches a fairly "Wide range of people" most of them having never set foot in a comic book store. Getting New Readers...wow what a concept.
3. Lots of people would argue that he is one of the greatest storytellers to ever work in this medium.
4. I can't even begin to list his 'Artistic Achievements. Here's one: When I read Ghost World when I was 16 I knew I wanted to draw comics until I died.

So yes seriously. You are a real twit.
No, I wasn't saying he didn't meet this criteria. Because I don't find his style terribly likeable, and I don't know anybody who does personally, I find it not terribly agreeable that he would be the best comic artist. But I added the criteria, because they are beyond my own personal tastes, and there are many artists who I don't like personally that fit into those. That's why I added the list, keep your insults to your self next time.

JJ McKool
09-20-2007, 01:37 AM
Seriously, man. What the hell?
I was being sarcastic for the sake of being sarcastic, sorry.


However, if you want to sit there and insult me, I do want to mention:
1. Having no motion; being at rest; quiescent.
2. Fixed; stationary.
So I was referring to the word you used. That particular piece not being very fluid? No, but you shouldn't have used that word. Nonetheless, I didn't have to be a dick about it, and I'm sorry.

Raven
09-20-2007, 08:25 AM
What Byrne needs is a dictator like Jim Shooter who will tell him what to do. Byrne has been allowed to slack off. He, at this point is running off past glory, which he unfortunately is eroding. Not to me, because I pay no mind to his rants. If he was under contract and the pages he slacked on were sent back for redo's, he would either man up or wuss out, but he isn't being taken to task.

His life, his career.

No one needs Massa to rein them all's in. If he wants to kill his career, let him do it.

And NO NUDITY??

I posted an ass. That wasn't nudity, that was art, dammit. :)

Milo Manara doesn't draw women with clothes on. . .

jmassie
09-20-2007, 10:59 AM
No, I wasn't saying he didn't meet this criteria. Because I don't find his style terribly likeable, and I don't know anybody who does personally, I find it not terribly agreeable that he would be the best comic artist. But I added the criteria, because they are beyond my own personal tastes, and there are many artists who I don't like personally that fit into those. That's why I added the list, keep your insults to your self next time.

No....HAHAHa!

Justice41
09-20-2007, 11:38 AM
His life, his career.

No one needs Massa to rein them all's in. If he wants to kill his career, let him do it.

And NO NUDITY??

I posted an ass. That wasn't nudity, that was art, dammit. :)

Milo Manara doesn't draw women with clothes on. . .
Yes he does. he did his best work under the iron fist of Jim Shooter. Some artists need heavy handed guidance. Artists like Joe Mad.

Raven
09-20-2007, 03:31 PM
Yes he does. he did his best work under the iron fist of Jim Shooter. Some artists need heavy handed guidance. Artists like Joe Mad.
If an artist needs someone to hold their hand, they aren't professionals. It's that simple. He's already established himself and paid his dues so that he has the freedom to destroy himself, rip his fans, or work on Doom Patrol. :)

VOGLER/ART
09-20-2007, 03:47 PM
Chris Bachalo, Bernie Wrightson, Stephen Bissette and Geoff Darrow :thumbs:

MARK A ROBINSON
09-21-2007, 06:33 PM
If an artist needs someone to hold their hand, they aren't professionals. It's that simple. He's already established himself and paid his dues so that he has the freedom to destroy himself, rip his fans, or work on Doom Patrol. :)

I do agree with you Raven- but on the "hand holding thing"--

I think you are confusing "hand holding" with an objective point of view...Sometimes an editor can make or break his artist- i have had some awesome editors and some bad ones. But that's another conversation-or forum...

I for one think Byrne is an amazing artist who's work has influenced perhaps most of the comic book creators you enjoy today- and to throw into the mix another rational reason for his "sloppyness- or technical problems-" could all be summed up to one thing...

Age.

sometimes as you continue to place stress and strain and wear and tear at those tendins and muscles and joints you will not get the same line weights or even quality that you had say- 20 years ago...If you look at Bryne's work say- about 15-20 years ago- umm...

it's some pretty amazing stuff.

I think alot of people on here get caught up in Byrbe as a "personality" than rather Byrne as an artist.

I pray it doesn't happen to any artist...I have talked to guys who can't even pick up a pencil anymore.

So maybe it's time to chill with the John Byrne bashing.

it's old.

M.

JJ McKool
09-21-2007, 08:43 PM
If an artist needs someone to hold their hand, they aren't professionals. It's that simple. He's already established himself and paid his dues so that he has the freedom to destroy himself, rip his fans, or work on Doom Patrol. :)
Definitely disagree, there are tons of people out there that need a boss or somebody above them to keep them in gear, and I'm talking all jobs here. Most people in fact. It's actually in tune with multiple laws of physics, Newton's first law of motion, the 2nd law of thermodynamics; in essence, the laws of being lazy. All people are lazy, or at rest, unless they find something to motivate them, I don't know anybody who does anything "just cuz." It doesn't suddenly mean he's unprofessional, it means he may have just never relied entirely on himself to get work done. Or the age thing.

JJ McKool
09-21-2007, 09:29 PM
Y'know who I just realized hasn't been mentioned? David Mack. The guy uses so many different techniques in his art, and his sequentials not only look great, they tell a story in ways many comic artists can't: emotionally. Plus his pin-ups are real pretty too, and he can colour another person's art without stealing from their style at all, and still branding it with that Mack flare. Yeah, I think I choose Mack actually, as far as livin dudes.

Justice41
09-21-2007, 10:05 PM
If an artist needs someone to hold their hand, they aren't professionals. It's that simple. He's already established himself and paid his dues so that he has the freedom to destroy himself, rip his fans, or work on Doom Patrol. :)
It's not about holding hands it's about expectations. If there is none there will be none given. If age has done anything it's made him not care. As far as I'm concerned he's phoning it in because no one is going to tell him differently and also because he doesn't need the work, I suppose. When he's about Gene Colan's age maybe he'll wish he had done better. Colan takes longer to draw but his stuff is always top notch.

Rob Norton
09-23-2007, 05:36 PM
well..for me..its Adam Hughes. there are so many great artists listed here, but for ME, hughes is the hands down best at the moment. from his pencilling, his inking, his coloring, his ability to show all ranges of expressions and emotions, his humor.. hes got it ALL. here are some examples of some of his art that show what i listed...

his finished art, either black and white, or colored..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/starwars16.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/L4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/G13yahoo.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/TR_48yahoo.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/ww153.jpg

look at this picture, all the girls have distinct body language. you "get" alot of who they are by how they are standing...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/WizCov.jpg

his sketches are just amazing as well..they capture what the character is all about...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/PhoenixSk.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/PhoenixSk2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/EnchantressSk.jpg

Rob Norton
09-23-2007, 05:38 PM
"my love for adam hughes" part 2

the expressions....look at the smile on this gals face. isnt she just adorable?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/WondergirlSk.jpg

and the HUMOR. hughes is funny...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/CapnJackSK.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/MegaSK_16.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/marymarvel.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/hughe44.jpg

yeah... he rocks. my expectations for his all star wonderwoman are thru the roof to be sure.

rob

N Hammer
09-23-2007, 05:54 PM
George Perez.....

Phatman
09-23-2007, 06:18 PM
Adam Hughes is a tremendous cover artist and pin-up guy, but part of my criteria of being the "best comic book artist in the world" is actually drawing comics books. Yeah, he's got this WW thing coming up and he did do an issue or two of Gen13 a decade or so ago, but does that put him into this discussion at all?

JJ McKool
09-23-2007, 06:30 PM
look at this picture, all the girls have distinct body language. you "get" alot of who they are by how they are standing...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/robnor/WizCov.jpg
Except Witchblade I think, cuz while that's how a lot of guys end up drawing her, Sara Pezzini is a pretty tough cop and I think it's odd that she's just in a regular kind of sexy pose.

Rob Norton
09-23-2007, 07:46 PM
Except Witchblade I think, cuz while that's how a lot of guys end up drawing her, Sara Pezzini is a pretty tough cop and I think it's odd that she's just in a regular kind of sexy pose.

true, but when this cover was drawn, the book(witchblade) was pretty new. i dont think there was much to draw on, personality wise, to really define her except that she was the hot half nekkid gal from image comics. so...thats pretty much what he drew here.

rob

Rob Norton
09-23-2007, 07:51 PM
Adam Hughes is a tremendous cover artist and pin-up guy, but part of my criteria of being the "best comic book artist in the world" is actually drawing comics books. Yeah, he's got this WW thing coming up and he did do an issue or two of Gen13 a decade or so ago, but does that put him into this discussion at all?

no, he doesnt draw much sequential stuff, but he has done more that what you mentioned. just off the top of my head, he drew issues of "ghost". stuff for penthouse comics. he did that wildcats/xmen crossover which was amazing. some small sections in books here and there like a wonderwoman origin thing(2 pages i know, but still) and there was a 6 or 8 page thing in a tom strong book once.
yes..its not much, but he does do it. he knows hes not fast and cant maintain a monthy pace, and covers/pinups seem to fit him just fine. so i think he qualifies. also, even for doing so few seqential gigs, in my opinion, the ones he does do are always great. he never does anything half way. great anatomy, backgrounds, pacing, mood. its all there. so..yeah.. i think he can be considered.

rob

The Scribe
09-23-2007, 08:03 PM
Who's the best comic book artist in the world?

http://brightcove.vo.llnwd.net/d2/unsecured/media/2887271/2887271_443725134_2ba8633cea6fe666245a14c8ab88f7e0 f0fee8fe.jpg


:har:

The Scribe
09-23-2007, 08:29 PM
Artists I like past and present.

Jack Kirby
Gil Kane
Erik Larsen
Todd Nauck
George Perez
Alex Ross
Ed McGuinness
Jim Lee
John Byrne
John Romita Sr.
John Romita Jr.
Michael Turner
Carlos Pacheco.
Dave Cockrum,
Mike Wieringo
John Buscema
Ron Lim
Ethan Van Sciver
Mike Allred
Gardner Fox
Walter Simonson
Don Simpson
And, many more I haven't listed. ;)

THE 100 GREATEST COMIC ARTISTS #100-91

JJ McKool
09-24-2007, 12:41 AM
http://brightcove.vo.llnwd.net/d2/unsecured/media/2887271/2887271_443725134_2ba8633cea6fe666245a14c8ab88f7e0 f0fee8fe.jpg


:har:
In all honesty there was some truth to that at one point, ie. Youngblood.

jakebilbao
09-24-2007, 01:59 AM
AH! comes close second to Hitchy as my favorite! :) by a hair! :)

C. Wallace
09-24-2007, 03:10 AM
Michael Golden

jmassie
09-24-2007, 08:27 AM
No one has mentioned Steve Ditko.

quantum1019
09-24-2007, 12:07 PM
JOE KUBERT!


A fabulous artist with an incredibly dynamic style, a master storyteller (and teacher of comics storytelling) who has been working in the comics field for nearly 70 years...since he was 12!!!

Spacious Interior
09-24-2007, 01:30 PM
I went to his school. Yes, he's an inovator and it's in the genes.... but there are better.

One up? There are better, still, under the same roof working as facutly.

Then again, I guess it's all in how you define "better" and "best".

Joe's certainly on my list as one of the best.... but not the best.

Phatman
09-24-2007, 02:10 PM
No one has mentioned Steve Ditko.

Pay attention:

In no particular order:

Will Eisner, John Buscema, Neal Adams, Alex Toth, Ross Andru, Gil Kane, Dave Cockrum, Mike Mignola, John Romita (Sr. and Jr.), Steve Ditko, Todd McFarlane, Erik Larson, Jae Lee, Simon Bisley, Ariel Olivetti, Steve Dillon, Steve Skroce, Bill Sienkiewicz, Alex Maleev, Frank Quitely, Mike Zeck, Gene Ha, Brent Anderson, Bernie Wrightson, Travis Charest, Geoff Darrow, Cully Hamner, Leilnil Yu, Mark Texiera, Doug Mahnke, Ed McGuinness, Don Kramer, J.G. Jones, Claudio Castellini, Carlos Pacheco, Walt Simonson, Howard Chaykin, Sam Kieth and Jack "the King" Kirby.

As great as all of them are, I have three others that I consider my holy-comics-trinity growing up that I put on a special pedestal: George Perez, John Byrne and Frank Miller.

(I left Cary Nord and Ryan Ottley off the list because it looks too much like sucking up around here-great artists)

jmassie
09-24-2007, 02:20 PM
Pay attention:

SOOOOOOORRRRRY! I'm glad. It would be wrong not to have him listed.

pandayboss
09-24-2007, 02:29 PM
JACK KIRBY is the King! :D

Spacious Interior
09-24-2007, 02:59 PM
....because we're told thus.

jeffers
09-24-2007, 03:22 PM
JACK KIRBY is the King! :D


are you on crack?!

Liefeld is the KING!

JJ McKool
09-24-2007, 03:30 PM
I went to his school. Yes, he's an inovator and it's in the genes.... but there are better.

One up? There are better, still, under the same roof working as facutly.

Then again, I guess it's all in how you define "better" and "best".

Joe's certainly on my list as one of the best.... but not the best.
He's great for different reasons I think. He's incredibly fast, and he knows the foundations of how to tell a story better than most, but his look is not the best, and there has been a lot more stuff done since his time, that I don't know if he cares about as much, but then, neither do too many artists now. I think adaptability is important and his artwork just doesn't stand out with more current artists, and I'm not sure it would even if he was born later.

Amazing teacher though for sure, I got a course from them and I only finished half of it, but it was still well worth it.

Phatman
09-24-2007, 07:07 PM
SOOOOOOORRRRRY! I'm glad. It would be wrong not to have him listed.

Agreed.

jmassie
09-24-2007, 08:08 PM
Yes....hmmmmmmmm

The Scribe
09-24-2007, 08:46 PM
JACK KIRBY is the King! :D

http://rebelsofmars.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/jack_kirby.jpg

Moonrider
09-25-2007, 11:21 AM
Best comic book artist in the world?
Herge.

Sure, Jack Kirby is a very big name in American comics history. But all over the world more people know and love Tintin than they know of Darkseid or Orion.

Toyandgadgetguy
09-25-2007, 11:37 AM
Best? or most well known?

Moonrider
09-25-2007, 12:22 PM
Best? or most well known?

There's a reason why Tintin is hugely popular, and not simply because it's more accessible to international market than Kirby's works. Or maybe that's exactly what makes Herge a great artist. You take any work by Kirby and translate it to several languages, and I am not sure it will be accepted internationally more than Tintin.

Toyandgadgetguy
09-25-2007, 12:24 PM
But is he better?





















(I'm playing devil's advocate, in case you were unsure)

Moonrider
09-25-2007, 12:26 PM
Yes he is. Jack Kirby suck. :laugh:

JJ McKool
09-25-2007, 06:21 PM
Jim Davis is more well-known than Jack Kirby, and I've never heard of Tintin. I'm also quite positive most people know who the Captain America is.

kdmelrose
09-25-2007, 06:22 PM
... and I've never heard of Tintin.

:blink:

Really?

JJ McKool
09-25-2007, 06:41 PM
Honestly, never heard of it/him

kdmelrose
09-25-2007, 06:53 PM
Tintin is a him -- a character created by Georges Remi (Herge). His comics are among the most popular in the world. More than 200 million copies have been sold in 58 languages since the character's debut in 1929.

Lovecraft13
09-25-2007, 07:26 PM
Tintin is a him -- a character created by Georges Remi (Herge). His comics are among the most popular in the world. More than 200 million copies have been sold in 58 languages since the character's debut in 1929.

Just to be fair, I actually bought about 199 million copies of Tintin, and donate the books to New York City every New Year's Eve. It's a great pleasure ushering in the new year with millions of shredded Remi comics littering Times Square.

JJ McKool
09-25-2007, 09:17 PM
hahahahaha

Mark Bertolini
09-25-2007, 10:11 PM
My vote goes to either John Cassaday or Frank Quitely.

Moonrider
09-26-2007, 02:45 AM
Jim Davis is more well-known than Jack Kirby, and I've never heard of Tintin. I'm also quite positive most people know who the Captain America is.

Most people in United States and certain parts of Canada?

JJ McKool
09-29-2007, 06:21 AM
Everybody in Canada knows who Captain America, except for possibly the most northern parts (I live far enough north, and I'm pretty acquainted), who also wouldn't know wtf tintin is. I can pretty much guarantee most know who he is in Europe too. Granted, it's kinda cheating cuz he's like Uncle Sam, but still.

Moonrider
09-30-2007, 10:42 AM
But does more people in the world read Captain America than Tintin?

kdmelrose
09-30-2007, 10:49 AM
I would guess no.

mynameisearl
10-02-2007, 04:27 PM
Alex Ross, hands down, is in my opinion, the best or the best.


Close seconds.....

Joe Kubert
John Buscema
Berni Wrightson
Neal Adams
Marc Silvestri
Adam Hughes

hardinart
10-02-2007, 05:18 PM
I know I'm gonna catch a lot of crap but my favorite of all time is John Romita Jr. He's the only dude I know who can put out 3 books a month and the art still looks good.

E.J.Su
10-02-2007, 06:27 PM
It's interesting how "the best in the world" in this thread mostly consist of American artists and on very rare occasion European.

kdmelrose
10-02-2007, 07:01 PM
Eh, it's a forum largely comprised of North American readers/creators who read, or grew up reading, American comics.

Toyandgadgetguy
10-02-2007, 07:24 PM
It's interesting how "the best in the world" in this thread mostly consist of American artists and on very rare occasion European.

Familiarity, man. Bring more Taiwanese here, and the tide of opinion might change.

Haven't you ever heard of the 'World Series'? 'World Wrestling'? 'Where's Worldo'?

:nyah:




Also, Hardinart, I'm a huge fan of J.R. Jr's stuff as well. The guy is consistently good.

Mark Bertolini
10-02-2007, 08:00 PM
I have to go with Geof Darrow. No one, and I mean no one, can touch his level of detail and intensity.

JJ McKool
10-02-2007, 11:00 PM
I would guess no.

Well, that's not exactly fair, according to wikipedia, it started out as a children's strip did it not? That in itself makes it more likely to be read by a larger amount of people, but I really don't think that makes it any better. My guess is few kids like Rembrandt.

I know I'm gonna catch a lot of crap but my favorite of all time is John Romita Jr. He's the only dude I know who can put out 3 books a month and the art still looks good.

No no, that's definitely understandable, I just don't think reliability is enough to put you in the throne. Some of his stuff I genuinely like:
http://www.lambiek.net/artists/r/romita_jr/romita_jr_wolverine.jpg
http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/image/SpiderMan_02.jpg

Really really like this one, but a lot of it is because of the colourist:
http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0504/07/bp1.jpg


However some I genuinely hate:
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u50/jjmckool/romita_daredevil_1993jpg.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/Entertaining/spideromita.jpg
http://www.brokenfrontier.com/images/eyecatchers/106_large.jpg
http://www.playbackstl.com/images/stories/paneldiscussion/0707/lastffstorypg00.jpg

He knows how to get the point across, but that's just not enough to me.


On a side note, I'm really liking this guy:
http://www.silverbulletcomics.com/~editor/brant/Marvel/HULK107_CompRev_Page_19_01.jpg

Moonrider
10-03-2007, 12:22 AM
Well, that's not exactly fair, according to wikipedia, it started out as a children's strip did it not? That in itself makes it more likely to be read by a larger amount of people, but I really don't think that makes it any better. My guess is few kids like Rembrandt.

To my knowledge, most of Jack Kirby's works are in comic books which are in fact a children's read according to the consensus of his time when Captain America came out, and if I remember correctly Cap has appeared in comic strips as well. So it is still a fair comparison on that subject. That fact alone is not enough to say that Herge is any better, but you must put into account that people read all his work, not his character. Efforts from his assistants to do more Tintin books post mortem never fell through because they know that the cannot duplicate the maestro's craftmanship. I would even put Herge in high regard as Rembrandt, while Kirby though fondly remembered is not irreplaceable as an artist.

E.J Su, I like Hongkong artists such as Tony Wong and this one guy who was his apprentice (his name escape me at this point). I basically grew up with Tiger Wong (Dragon and Tiger Heroes) and The Force of Buddha's Palm.

E.J.Su
10-03-2007, 12:47 AM
Eh, it's a forum largely comprised of North American readers/creators who read, or grew up reading, American comics.Yes, but the question is not who is your favorite is it? Personally, I don't think there's an answer to that question, but that's just me.

hardinart
10-03-2007, 01:39 AM
, I just don't think reliability is enough to put you in the throne.

I disagree. Reliablity is everything. No doubt there is coolness in the art of dudes like Madurera, Hughs, Arthur Adams, Cherest and Alex Ross, but if every artist out there did what those guys did we'd have like 20 books out there (and to Alex Ross's credit 10 of those would be his). And nothing else to read. I bet if JR jr. took the time those guys did he could do something equally as brilliant, but to his credit he understands that comics were ment to come out on a monthly basis. Jack Kirby who is considered the greatest comicbook artist of all time (by every body I know over 40) wasn't what I'd consider the best artist either, but you look at the quantity as well as the quality and what he did (and What John Romita Jr is doing now) was (is)absolutly amazing.

Moonrider
10-03-2007, 02:57 AM
I would say that reliability is not only about commitment to the artist' work (scheduling etc.) but also commitment to the art form itself. Those who keep reinventing themselves worth given higher praise. I think it's okay for artists not to draw a lot of books in their lifetime so long as it's a conscious and deliberate decision on their part to ensure the quality of the books without making promises they can't keep. What would make them bad artists is when they are excruciatingly late but at the end they don't deliver the goods worth waiting for. Guys like Travis Charest knows he can't keep a deadline but he never fail to impress whenever his books come out. Tintin only come out less than thirty isues but it last forever (and the fact that the albums you can read now is actually redrawn many times by Herge from its original form while he drew new ones). JR Jr. knows he can keep a deadline while maintaining quality, and that also makes him a good artist*.

Great artists however, are measured by their finished works, their thoughts, and their mark on society.


*)Liefeld, well...he's no JR Jr. nor is he Travis Charest.:)

hardinart
10-03-2007, 05:25 AM
Great artists however, are measured by their finished works, their thoughts, and their mark on society.



I love looking at Cherest and Joe Mad's stuff but I'm still waiting for my battlechasers #10 and my Metabarons. I think you just proved my point.

JJ McKool
10-03-2007, 06:26 AM
I just realized, with the talk of reliability and quality, that Dave Stewart hasn't been mentioned. Seriously, how many incredible books have been put out there with his name attached over the last four years? And eclectic? Just look at Conan, and then look at Lex Luthor: Man of Steel. As far as colourists go, he's the best I know of.

To my knowledge, most of Jack Kirby's works are in comic books which are in fact a children's read according to the consensus of his time when Captain America came out, and if I remember correctly Cap has appeared in comic strips as well. So it is still a fair comparison on that subject. That fact alone is not enough to say that Herge is any better, but you must put into account that people read all his work, not his character. Efforts from his assistants to do more Tintin books post mortem never fell through because they know that the cannot duplicate the maestro's craftmanship. I would even put Herge in high regard as Rembrandt, while Kirby though fondly remembered is not irreplaceable as an artist.

The highest form of flattery is imitation. Granted, I think that held comics back, he still was held in high enough regards to influence EVERY North American comic artist working the field today, probably even most European and a lot of South American artists. I don't think it's because Herge is so awesome that people don't emulate him. Look at any comic strip artist, they all have unique styles. Does that mean they should all be put atop this throne? I don't read Garfield, Dilbert, or any of the insane amount of strips for the art and superb graphic techniques. Quite positive nobody does. And no I don't think it's because it's so good that it you just read it for the story. I never read Watchmen for the art, in fact, I read it in spite of the art that I truly didn't care for, because the story was just so incredible the whole way through. On a side note, I'm finding this mention of Captain America appearing in his own strip false. The only mentions seem to be of Captain America as a "comic-strip hero," though I can't find any examples. No, ads don't count.

Another thing that neither artists really have, is the ability to truly invoke emotion (from what I've seen, of course), other than nostalgia, or maybe your base excitement. It's something that's common among all the great traditional artists. Same with the idea of "filling." Despite both artists having a more simple style, I don't know how much they really make you think about the art itself. This is one of those things that sort of throws the ideas of just having a basic point.

An example outside of comic art, and the best single piece of artwork I've seen in my life thus far:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u50/jjmckool/Der_Mann_mit_dem_Goldhelm.jpg

You know that shiver down your body/spine you get sometimes when you listen to a truly amazing piece of music, that either just has a message that completely resonates with you, or it's just so incredible, that that's what happens? For the first time I've seen a piece of artwork, this happened. And it hasn't really stopped, every time I look at it, it just amazes me, and I get that feeling course through my body. This hasn't happened to me before with anything. Maybe it has for all of you, I'm young. Honestly, I just felt the need to show this, I don't know if it really is all that relevant. And it's not a Rembrandt painting, in case you didn't know, apparently they aren't sure of who did it, though it may have been his brother.

I disagree. Reliablity is everything. No doubt there is coolness in the art of dudes like Madurera, Hughs, Arthur Adams, Cherest and Alex Ross, but if every artist out there did what those guys did we'd have like 20 books out there (and to Alex Ross's credit 10 of those would be his). And nothing else to read. I bet if JR jr. took the time those guys did he could do something equally as brilliant, but to his credit he understands that comics were ment to come out on a monthly basis. Jack Kirby who is considered the greatest comicbook artist of all time (by every body I know over 40) wasn't what I'd consider the best artist either, but you look at the quantity as well as the quality and what he did (and What John Romita Jr is doing now) was (is)absolutly amazing.

Two examples that may disprove this particular theory of reliability, Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci and Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni. Neither artists had a tremendous amount of work completed over their lives, but both are well-noted for their contributions to the field. Yes, I understand both did much more than art, and that helps, but if you look just at their art, and the respect given for it alone, well, pretty high chairs they sit atop. Now, granted, this isn't terribly the best example, as they are artists of different circumstance, but I think the point should still be evident. But of course, you're still allowed your own opinions and decisions, and I can't tell you outright you're wrong, as is the fun in debating art. Oh, and an FYI, I'm noticing that apparently my writing appears hostile, even though it's entirely not. I talk the same way, though in considerably smaller amounts, but something about the way my body language reads, lets people know I'm not actually pissed off about anything.

kdmelrose
10-03-2007, 07:42 AM
Well, that's not exactly fair, according to wikipedia, it started out as a children's strip did it not? That in itself makes it more likely to be read by a larger amount of people, but I really don't think that makes it any better. My guess is few kids like Rembrandt.

Huh?

No one said anything about "better." The question was, "But does more people in the world read Captain America than Tintin?"

kdmelrose
10-03-2007, 07:44 AM
Yes, but the question is not who is your favorite is it? Personally, I don't think there's an answer to that question, but that's just me.

I think it becomes, in effect, "who is your favorite," because you're right: It's completely subjective.

Moonrider
10-03-2007, 08:10 AM
True. My opinions mostly come from the tacked on 'in the world' of this thread's name. I am sure plenty of people would agree that Jack Kirby is the greatest comic artist in America considering his art, his thoughts, and his mark in American society. But in the world and the grand scheme of things, my assessment is that he barely made a dent.

@JJ McKool: Just for info, Herge's work were very influential in the world of bande dessine and many many other comic book cultures in the world. Many have also imitated his art, one such particular artist is Peter Van Dongen from the Netherlands. His achievements far surpass what you may let yourself know. The fact that Jack Kirby's Captain America never graced the newspaper strips is really irrelevant because we are talking about the artist, not the character. If so then Steve Ditko would have been a better match for Herge because his Spider-man did appear in comic strips. It is not my intention to lure you into submitting the idea that Herge is the best comic book artist in the world, I merely gave you an example of one such artist that I know that deserve more recognition than someone like Jack Kirby, and I say this with the utmost respect for the man who obviously mean a lot to you, because he truly is a great artist. But comic books belong to all of humanity, and America is not the world.

And no, I don't think anybody's pissed here. I haven't had a good 'artsy' discussion in months.:)

kdmelrose
10-03-2007, 08:30 AM
... Herge's work were very influential in the world of bande dessine and many many other comic book cultures in the world.

Definitely. I see his influence in the work of a lot of South American comic artists.

JJ McKool
10-03-2007, 10:13 AM
True. My opinions mostly come from the tacked on 'in the world' of this thread's name. I am sure plenty of people would agree that Jack Kirby is the greatest comic artist in America considering his art, his thoughts, and his mark in American society. But in the world and the grand scheme of things, my assessment is that he barely made a dent.

@JJ McKool: Just for info, Herge's work were very influential in the world of bande dessine and many many other comic book cultures in the world. Many have also imitated his art, one such particular artist is Peter Van Dongen from the Netherlands. His achievements far surpass what you may let yourself know. The fact that Jack Kirby's Captain America never graced the newspaper strips is really irrelevant because we are talking about the artist, not the character. If so then Steve Ditko would have been a better match for Herge because his Spider-man did appear in comic strips. It is not my intention to lure you into submitting the idea that Herge is the best comic book artist in the world, I merely gave you an example of one such artist that I know that deserve more recognition than someone like Jack Kirby, and I say this with the utmost respect for the man who obviously mean a lot to you, because he truly is a great artist. But comic books belong to all of humanity, and America is not the world.

And no, I don't think anybody's pissed here. I haven't had a good 'artsy' discussion in months.:)

I was just letting people know that, in case anybody thought I was pissed. And I simply don't know of his influence, as I have not seen anybody's art where it was evident. But again, I've barely seen Herge's stuff, so maybe that's a part of the world I know nothing about. You also made it sound as though nobody tried to imitate him:
Efforts from his assistants to do more Tintin books post mortem never fell through because they know that the cannot duplicate the maestro's craftmanship.
Maybe I misinterpreted.

Oh, and I'm Canadian, so I'm quite aware that America is not the world, though I know they try to be :laugh: Personally though, I'm just not a fan of Kirby's art taste-wise, I take a lot more from traditional art, but it's more evident to me that Kirby is out there in influence to a lot of people, and I can't not respect it. Just for instance Alex Ross, and then I see myself being influenced by Ross almost by osmosis without really trying to be.

Also, what's the name of the guy who created Astro-Boy? He seems to have a ginormous influence on manga and that, and I don't know, has he been mentioned?

kdmelrose
10-03-2007, 10:40 AM
Also, what's the name of the guy who created Astro-Boy? He seems to have a ginormous influence on manga and that, and I don't know, has he been mentioned?

:laugh:

Osamu Tezuka. Yes, he was -- and remains -- incredibly influential, and not only on Japanese comics. He's not called the God of Manga for nothing.

This will probably come off as a little insulting, but I don't really intend it to be (besides, you don't seem to hold back on your opinions): JJ, you should read more about comic artists and comic history. You seem eager to dive into topics like this one, but you don't appear to have a very solid foundation (never heard of Tintin, "the guy" who created Astro Boy, your assessment of Krigstein's "Master Race," etc.).

JJ McKool
10-03-2007, 02:27 PM
:laugh:

Osamu Tezuka. Yes, he was -- and remains -- incredibly influential, and not only on Japanese comics. He's not called the God of Manga for nothing.

This will probably come off as a little insulting, but I don't really intend it to be (besides, you don't seem to hold back on your opinions): JJ, you should read more about comic artists and comic history. You seem eager to dive into topics like this one, but you don't appear to have a very solid foundation (never heard of Tintin, "the guy" who created Astro Boy, your assessment of Krigstein's "Master Race," etc.).
A little, seems more hostile than anything, like your pissed off I can have an opinion that's from a completely different viewpoint than you have. Not trying to force my opinion on people, or say that I'm absolutely right, if I sound that way, sorry, like I said before, this kinda thing is pretty subjective, there are some criteria that holds, but then there's exceptions to all of them, so it does come down to personal taste, for sure, but it's nice to discuss, is it not?

kdmelrose
10-03-2007, 02:31 PM
A little, seems more hostile than anything, like your pissed off I can have an opinion that's from a completely different viewpoint than you have.

I'm not pissed off at all; you're welcome to your opinions.

I'm just suggesting you learn more about comics and comics history to help in forming those opinions.

Mr.P.Phlegming
10-03-2007, 03:12 PM
Gotta go with Eric Powell the creator of The Goon

http://www.comicsreporter.com/images/uploads/goonnoir.jpg

http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/data/media/377/ACTION_COMICS_857.jpg

http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/data/media/377/MarvelMonsters_MOTP.jpg

http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/data/media/377/powell_eric_defenders_powell1.jpg

http://www.comicartcommunity.com/gallery/data/media/377/Bizarro.jpg

hardinart
10-03-2007, 03:40 PM
I just realized, with the talk of reliability and quality, that Dave Stewart hasn't been mentioned. Seriously, how many incredible books have been put out there with his name attached over the last four years? And eclectic? Just look at Conan, and then look at Lex Luthor: Man of Steel. As far as colourists go, he's the best I know of.



The highest form of flattery is imitation. Granted, I think that held comics back, he still was held in high enough regards to influence EVERY North American comic artist working the field today, probably even most European and a lot of South American artists. I don't think it's because Herge is so awesome that people don't emulate him. Look at any comic strip artist, they all have unique styles. Does that mean they should all be put atop this throne? I don't read Garfield, Dilbert, or any of the insane amount of strips for the art and superb graphic techniques. Quite positive nobody does. And no I don't think it's because it's so good that it you just read it for the story. I never read Watchmen for the art, in fact, I read it in spite of the art that I truly didn't care for, because the story was just so incredible the whole way through. On a side note, I'm finding this mention of Captain America appearing in his own strip false. The only mentions seem to be of Captain America as a "comic-strip hero," though I can't find any examples. No, ads don't count.

Another thing that neither artists really have, is the ability to truly invoke emotion (from what I've seen, of course), other than nostalgia, or maybe your base excitement. It's something that's common among all the great traditional artists. Same with the idea of "filling." Despite both artists having a more simple style, I don't know how much they really make you think about the art itself. This is one of those things that sort of throws the ideas of just having a basic point.

An example outside of comic art, and the best single piece of artwork I've seen in my life thus far:

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u50/jjmckool/Der_Mann_mit_dem_Goldhelm.jpg

You know that shiver down your body/spine you get sometimes when you listen to a truly amazing piece of music, that either just has a message that completely resonates with you, or it's just so incredible, that that's what happens? For the first time I've seen a piece of artwork, this happened. And it hasn't really stopped, every time I look at it, it just amazes me, and I get that feeling course through my body. This hasn't happened to me before with anything. Maybe it has for all of you, I'm young. Honestly, I just felt the need to show this, I don't know if it really is all that relevant. And it's not a Rembrandt painting, in case you didn't know, apparently they aren't sure of who did it, though it may have been his brother.



Two examples that may disprove this particular theory of reliability, Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci and Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni. Neither artists had a tremendous amount of work completed over their lives, but both are well-noted for their contributions to the field. Yes, I understand both did much more than art, and that helps, but if you look just at their art, and the respect given for it alone, well, pretty high chairs they sit atop. Now, granted, this isn't terribly the best example, as they are artists of different circumstance, but I think the point should still be evident. But of course, you're still allowed your own opinions and decisions, and I can't tell you outright you're wrong, as is the fun in debating art. Oh, and an FYI, I'm noticing that apparently my writing appears hostile, even though it's entirely not. I talk the same way, though in considerably smaller amounts, but something about the way my body language reads, lets people know I'm not actually pissed off about anything.

Look man I was talking comics not art history.

MARK A ROBINSON
10-03-2007, 06:18 PM
Lol.

JJ McKool
10-03-2007, 09:51 PM
I'm not pissed off at all; you're welcome to your opinions.

I'm just suggesting you learn more about comics and comics history to help in forming those opinions.
Oh, yeah, I do have a lot to learn.
Look man I was talking comics not art history.
So then, what you're saying is, comics aren't art? Sorry just playing devil's advocate I spose.

xombey
10-04-2007, 12:16 AM
bill waterson. he has the most integrity of any comic artist i've heard of. he refused all types of endorsement crap for calvin & hobbes and quit when he felt he had nothing else to say.

xombey
10-04-2007, 12:19 AM
rembrandt couldn't cut it as a comic book artist. he was notoriously slow, that's why he has so many sel-portraits. he had a hard time getting people to sit for him

JJ McKool
10-04-2007, 12:20 AM
:laugh: Nice. He does have an enormous amount of artwork out there though.

Y'know, you always here about how artists and musicians who refuse endorsements have "integrity," but, what's wrong with endorsements? Isn't the point to get your art out there as far as possible and for as many people to enjoy? Actually, I spose different people have different reasons of doing it, but why are endorsements bad?

hardinart
10-04-2007, 12:35 AM
Oh, yeah, I do have a lot to learn.

So then, what you're saying is, comics aren't art? Sorry just playing devil's advocate I spose.

Or you just like arguing so you take common sense and throw it out the window.

xombey
10-04-2007, 12:37 AM
as an example i'll use peanuts. older people who saw it in it's original inception, speak about it with the reverence i hold fo calvin & hobbbes. to me it's just this cutsy comic with a big focus on snoopy. he's put on mugs and calendars and totebags, etc.. and whatever insight into the human condition or whatever people saw in peanuts is reduced to a corny greeting card or t-shirt. then you have to keep the machine going to support those things even when snoopy , and charlie brown have nothing relevant to offer.

E.J.Su
10-04-2007, 01:48 AM
Y'know, you always here about how artists and musicians who refuse endorsements have "integrity," but, what's wrong with endorsements? Isn't the point to get your art out there as far as possible and for as many people to enjoy?I think you got it backward. If a corporation came to you with endorsement, that means they want to sell to your fans.

Nick Kerklaan
10-04-2007, 02:43 AM
*de-lurks*

I don't really have much knowledge of art or artists, in comics or out, though I am aiming to change this. That's why I've enjoyed reading this thread, and while I am hardly qualified to make any sort of statement as to who's the best comic book artist in the world, I'll touch on three personal favourites that I don't think have been mentioned yet (and if they have, apologies).

Jeff Smith:

http://moviesmedia.ign.com/movies/image/bone1_p39.gif

http://www.comicsreporter.com/images/uploads/bone1vedition_thumb.jpg

Yeah, he's done more than just Bone, but Bone's all I've read. I like the juxtoposition between the cartoonishness of the Bones and various talking animals vs. the rat creatures, humans, and other things that populate the tale, not to mention the relative realism of the characters vs. the backgrounds that I think I read somewhere he got from Walt Kelly's Pogo. And speaking of artists who are influenced by Walt Kelly's Pogo...

http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/cb/d7/4a7f9330dca0d440c08a1010.L.jpg

http://www.benzilla.com/upload_images/7_6588.jpg

Bill Waterson.

And yes I know comic strips aren't technically comic books but still. To me this actually makes Waterson's work all the more impressive. I love Dilbert as much as the next guy but you have to admit it's not going to win an art award any time soon. In the world of the Sunday funnies where art is often a secondary consideration, Waterson can really draw, yet, like Jeff Smith, he knows that simple is sometimes best, and when and where to truly let his skills shine. Which can also be said about my last pick, Chris Ware:

http://www.randomhouse.com/pantheon/graphicnovels/art/jimmyspread1.jpg

http://devernay.free.fr/images/qm2.jpg

http://savetherobot.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/ware_tales_425.jpg


One of the most singularly unique artistic talents I've ever seen. His sense of layout, pacing and pageflow is just incredible. Even his books covers and packaging are wonderfully designed. His style might come off as mechanical or lifeless to some, but I think that's what makes it work for the stories he tells. Again, Ware can draw really well in various styles, but he's developed a signature style that... darn it, I can't even really put into words why I like it so much. Like I said, simple can sometimes be best, and for me Ware's style is at once accesibly simple and disarmingly complex, and just pretty much like nothing else I've ever seen.

I also really love Tintin and echo what Moonrider and others have said about Herge. Also, Uderzo:

http://www.understandfrance.org/Images/AsterixObelix.jpg

So there you have it, some of my favourite artists. Others include Mignola, Ross, McFarlane et. al, but those've already been touched on plenty and my reasons for liking them are probably much the same as anyone else's. Like I said, I really basically have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to art and artists, as it's the writers I've tended to pay more attention to up until recently. So if anyone thinks I'm completely off the mark or talking out of my ass, let me know, because you're probably right.

Nick Kerklaan
10-04-2007, 02:48 AM
Sorry Xombey, that post took me forever to write and find images for, I didn't see that you'd said Bill Waterson before I posted, honest! :whistlin:

I agree about the integrity part. He also, if memory serves, pushed hard to be allowed to draw his Sunday comics in whatever way he desired, going against the grain of the standard Sunday format and getting his strip dropped by a lot of papers in the process.

JJ McKool
10-04-2007, 03:47 AM
I think you got it backward. If a corporation came to you with endorsement, that means they want to sell to your fans.
Yeah, I suppose that's true, I'm not really decided on the whole endorsement thing, so I can't say I have much of an opinion.
Or you just like arguing so you take common sense and throw it out the window.
How so? By mentioning quality, highly respected and influential artists who weren't exactly reliable? I know they aren't comic artists, I'm trying to show you my perspective on comic art.

hardinart
10-04-2007, 04:12 AM
Can I call you Data?

jmassie
10-04-2007, 10:39 AM
:laugh: Nice. He does have an enormous amount of artwork out there though.

Y'know, you always here about how artists and musicians who refuse endorsements have "integrity," but, what's wrong with endorsements? Isn't the point to get your art out there as far as possible and for as many people to enjoy? Actually, I spose different people have different reasons of doing it, but why are endorsements bad?

This makes me want to barf. Why shouldn't 'Integrity' be important. So many people nowadays have no problem being a total whore. Love ya J.J.

jmassie
10-04-2007, 10:42 AM
*de-lurks*

I don't really have much knowledge of art or artists, in comics or out, though I am aiming to change this. That's why I've enjoyed reading this thread, and while I am hardly qualified to make any sort of statement as to who's the best comic book artist in the world, I'll touch on three personal favourites that I don't think have been mentioned yet (and if they have, apologies).

Jeff Smith:

http://moviesmedia.ign.com/movies/image/bone1_p39.gif

http://www.comicsreporter.com/images/uploads/bone1vedition_thumb.jpg

Yeah, he's done more than just Bone, but Bone's all I've read. I like the juxtoposition between the cartoonishness of the Bones and various talking animals vs. the rat creatures, humans, and other things that populate the tale, not to mention the relative realism of the characters vs. the backgrounds that I think I read somewhere he got from Walt Kelly's Pogo. And speaking of artists who are influenced by Walt Kelly's Pogo...

http://g-images.amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/cb/d7/4a7f9330dca0d440c08a1010.L.jpg

http://www.benzilla.com/upload_images/7_6588.jpg

Bill Waterson.

And yes I know comic strips aren't technically comic books but still. To me this actually makes Waterson's work all the more impressive. I love Dilbert as much as the next guy but you have to admit it's not going to win an art award any time soon. In the world of the Sunday funnies where art is often a secondary consideration, Waterson can really draw, yet, like Jeff Smith, he knows that simple is sometimes best, and when and where to truly let his skills shine. Which can also be said about my last pick, Chris Ware:

http://www.randomhouse.com/pantheon/graphicnovels/art/jimmyspread1.jpg

http://devernay.free.fr/images/qm2.jpg

http://savetherobot.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/ware_tales_425.jpg


One of the most singularly unique artistic talents I've ever seen. His sense of layout, pacing and pageflow is just incredible. Even his books covers and packaging are wonderfully designed. His style might come off as mechanical or lifeless to some, but I think that's what makes it work for the stories he tells. Again, Ware can draw really well in various styles, but he's developed a signature style that... darn it, I can't even really put into words why I like it so much. Like I said, simple can sometimes be best, and for me Ware's style is at once accesibly simple and disarmingly complex, and just pretty much like nothing else I've ever seen.

I also really love Tintin and echo what Moonrider and others have said about Herge. Also, Uderzo:

http://www.understandfrance.org/Images/AsterixObelix.jpg

So there you have it, some of my favourite artists. Others include Mignola, Ross, McFarlane et. al, but those've already been touched on plenty and my reasons for liking them are probably much the same as anyone else's. Like I said, I really basically have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to art and artists, as it's the writers I've tended to pay more attention to up until recently. So if anyone thinks I'm completely off the mark or talking out of my ass, let me know, because you're probably right.

To have just gotten into comics you have good taste. I love Chris Ware. Jimmy Corrigan was incredible as is his entire 'ACME NOVELTY LIBRARY" I hate McFarlane though.

Nick Kerklaan
10-04-2007, 11:32 AM
To have just gotten into comics you have good taste. I love Chris Ware. Jimmy Corrigan was incredible as is his entire 'ACME NOVELTY LIBRARY" I hate McFarlane though.

Thanks. I didn't mean to suggest that I've just gotten into comics, though, I meant I've just gotten into caring about comics artists. I've been reading comics for years.

jmassie
10-04-2007, 11:42 AM
Thanks. I didn't mean to suggest that I've just gotten into comics, though, I meant I've just gotten into caring about comics artists. I've been reading comics for years.
Sorry. Regardless, thanks for the Chris Ware hype.

Matthew Shepherd
10-04-2007, 12:08 PM
So many people nowadays have no problem being a total whore.

I know! That Michaelangelo makes me so mad. I mean, he spends all his time working for the CHURCH! And this Leonardo Da Vinci character -- total prostitute, throwing ink on canvas for anyone with a few bucks to help him keep body and soul together! Don't get me started on that rapacious slut Rembrandt.

And gawd, even musicians are selling out and cashing in! That little tease Mozart, composing for the Court of Salzburg! And Bach is practically a "kept man" by a whole RANGE of dukes and other nobles!

It's a scandal, I tells you! An absolute scandal!

jmassie
10-04-2007, 01:15 PM
I know! That Michaelangelo makes me so mad. I mean, he spends all his time working for the CHURCH! And this Leonardo Da Vinci character -- total prostitute, throwing ink on canvas for anyone with a few bucks to help him keep body and soul together! Don't get me started on that rapacious slut Rembrandt.

And gawd, even musicians are selling out and cashing in! That little tease Mozart, composing for the Court of Salzburg! And Bach is practically a "kept man" by a whole RANGE of dukes and other nobles!

It's a scandal, I tells you! An absolute scandal!

Those Fuckers!!! They made good comics too. Well sorry....Artists have always been whores then. Hey, lets keep the cycle going...You should go spread your legs wide open and let someone ram a pepsi can up your ass. Then somehow tie it in with 'Rise Kraken'. BOOM. Check is in the mail. What a commercial that would be. What a versatile product pepsi is. AHHHHHH. Hell lets let the pope insert it for you. Hey what do you say? I'm glad you listened in that art history class they made you take. Love ya.

:nyah: :nyah:

xombey
10-04-2007, 01:20 PM
if calvin and hobbes,for example, were a work for hire situation, then i'd agree with your analogy. but in one case an artist is being hired to use his talents to express someone elses vision. in the other, an artist is paid to use his talent to express his personal vision. that's why someone like bill waterson has the right to refuse hallmark's proposal for a calvin and hobbes card, but chris bachalo has no say in what marvel does with the x-men pj's or whatever

Matthew Shepherd
10-04-2007, 02:37 PM
if calvin and hobbes,for example, were a work for hire situation, then i'd agree with your analogy. but in one case an artist is being hired to use his talents to express someone elses vision.

Oh, I agree. I just think the poster's wide-eyed steaming outrage that sometimes artists do things for money so they can eat was hilarious.

As a quick example: Charles Schultz amassed an amazing body of work in his lifetime -- whether you love Peanuts or hate it, it's a fascinating document of the times he lived through and his reflection of those times and his worldview through 50+ years of more-or-less topical comic strips is a work that's going to endure.

But I'll venture less than one person in twenty remembers that Snoopy appeared in life insurance commercials for Met on television in the ... '70s? '80s?

If that helped Schultz eat, then I say what the heck. Let the guy have a steak every once in a while. It doesn't change what he did at all, and when people look back on Charles Schultz 100 years from now, they'll see his work and his legacy, not the Met ads.

EDIT: And yes, I know Schultz could afford steak without the Met ads. The point is more about how "selling out" generally doesn't affect the actual work being done. If it's work of merit and worthy of accolades, it persists regardless of who capitalizes on it. Sometimes because of. My opinion of Calvin and Hobbes, for instance, isn't diminished in the least by seeing countless stickers of Calvin peeing on a Ford/Dodge/GMC logo on the backs of countless pickup trucks.

Going back a few pages (and back on-topic), I'd cast another vote for Hergé. The man was a fantastic artist AND an incredible storyteller.

Moonrider
10-04-2007, 03:04 PM
It's just a choice, mind you. Any artist can choose to be endorsed or not to be endorsed. Disney was an animator who endorse himself. Now there's Mickey Mouse in every kid's jammies, and Walt made history with an abundant amount of wealth in his lifetime. It's not about integrity if you're willing to sell out your works to feed your hungry children, and the choice to keep your idealism is not always the smartest. It all lies with the direction of which the artist is going. However, corporate control is and always have been an artist' greatest enemy.

JJ McKool
10-04-2007, 04:23 PM
This makes me want to barf. Why shouldn't 'Integrity' be important. So many people nowadays have no problem being a total whore. Love ya J.J.
Yeah, I just really don't know if I understand what integrity is. I mean, half the time you're trying to sell your own art, what's wrong with getting commissioned by a company? It's done all the time, with graphic design and that, and it can still end up really cool and ground-breaking. Then with stuff like where Moby or whoever sells the rights to his whole album for ads, that does seem whorey. I just generally am not sure what the boundaries of integrity are. What does everybody else call integrity? What's cool, and what's just selling out? Seems to be another criteria of the great artists.

:laugh: I guess Moonrider answered this, maybe I should just go back and read these other posts, but if anybody hasn't mentioned their viewpoint, please share.

Nitecrawlah2
10-04-2007, 05:59 PM
Tony Harris. Discuss!

kdmelrose
10-04-2007, 06:03 PM
What's to discuss?

JJ McKool
10-04-2007, 06:37 PM
Tony Harris. Discuss!
Tony Harris?
http://usaplpowerlifting.com/ipfmastersworlds/images/bio_tony_harris_c.jpg
lulz

Nitecrawlah2
10-04-2007, 08:13 PM
Nope. Tony Harris:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Ex_Machina_TPB_v1.jpeg

What's to discuss?
I don't know, just in case anyone wanted to challenge my obviously excellent response to this thread ;) .

Nick Kerklaan
10-04-2007, 08:36 PM
Weird that you should bring up Tony Harris... having just finished the third Ex Machina trade (and having only been aware of the series' existence for a week or two, stupid me), I have to say, Tony Harris is pretty impressive, and Brian K. Vaughan is fast becoming one of my favourite writers.

On the subject of writer-artists (which I just realized all three of my picks were), I definitely think Herge is up there. I am actually at a library right now as I type this so I think I am going to see if they have any Tintin books.

They have a pretty good stock of single issues here as well. Including, um, lots of Ultimate Spider-Man.

Brian Michael Bendis. Discuss!

Mike225
10-04-2007, 08:39 PM
They have a pretty good stock of single issues here as well. Including, um, lots of Ultimate Spider-Man.

Brian Michael Bendis. Discuss!Well, if you have to read Ultimate Spider-Man, you might as well do it for free.

Nick Kerklaan
10-04-2007, 10:14 PM
Well, if you have to read Ultimate Spider-Man, you might as well do it for free.

No kidding. Not that I've read past the first trade... does it maybe get better? At some point?

But ahem. Kind of off-topic now....

Mike225
10-04-2007, 10:19 PM
What I meant is that nothing happens in the individual issues. If you want the whole story, read the trades. It's a bit monotonous.

JJ McKool
10-05-2007, 12:36 AM
Well, some would consider writers artists too. I wouldn't, but some would. In either case, he is a bit of an artist (even if not a great one), he drew Jinx, did he not?

On a side note, I've noticed among readers and such, like Mike's saying, that many don't like issues that are just a part of a bigger story, how much of a storyline is OK before you get into those problems?

Nick Kerklaan
10-05-2007, 12:43 AM
Well, some would consider writers artists too. I wouldn't, but some would. In either case, he is a bit of an artist (even if not a great one), he drew Jinx, did he not?

Well, seeing as comic book artist and comic book writer are two clearly defined roles in the comic-making process, I would say that in this context, no one would call writers artists. Obviously writers are "artists", in the larger sense that they are creating something. I don't think anyone would disagree with that... would they?

And yeah, he did draw Jinx and some other stuff before his super-stuff, that's why I brought him up. He's a legitimate target for discussion in this thread. So... does anybody think Brian Michael Bendis is the greatest comic bok artist in the world?

... anybody?

JJ McKool
10-05-2007, 04:59 AM
Well, I do disagree with the part about creating because essentially, nobody can create anything, it's all based on what's already been, rather discoveries, I think is a better statement. But Bendis is not much of a storyteller with his art, and considering a lot of it is actually spliced in photos, I think it's safe to say most here would be appalled if he were put in such a place.

Moonrider
10-05-2007, 11:37 AM
Well, seeing as comic book artist and comic book writer are two clearly defined roles in the comic-making process, I would say that in this context, no one would call writers artists. Obviously writers are "artists", in the larger sense that they are creating something. I don't think anyone would disagree with that... would they?

And yeah, he did draw Jinx and some other stuff before his super-stuff, that's why I brought him up. He's a legitimate target for discussion in this thread. So... does anybody think Brian Michael Bendis is the greatest comic book artist in the world?

... anybody?

No. He kinda suck at drawing. :laugh:

Moonrider
10-05-2007, 11:42 AM
Nope. Tony Harris:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Ex_Machina_TPB_v1.jpeg


I don't know, just in case anyone wanted to challenge my obviously excellent response to this thread ;) .

I love Tony Harris' art. I 'imitate' him sometimes. With various results.

xombey
10-05-2007, 11:46 AM
On a side note, I've noticed among readers and such, like Mike's saying, that many don't like issues that are just a part of a bigger story, how much of a storyline is OK before you get into those problems?
i like when an individual story feels complete after i've read it. it can stand on it's own and it still fits in as part of a story. newspaper strip s do this well also. a storyline will go on for weeks, but you can pick up just today's newspaper and still get it (this doesn't work with, say orphan annie--but calvin &hobbes, better or worse , etc... do this well. you almost don't realize it's a continuing story till it's collected in 1 book.

xombey
10-05-2007, 11:48 AM
reading a brian michael bendis story is like the disappointment a lot of women have in sex. a great beginning, but disappointing finish.

Moonrider
10-05-2007, 12:05 PM
i like when an individual story feels complete after i've read it. it can stand on it's own and it still fits in as part of a story. newspaper strip s do this well also. a storyline will go on for weeks, but you can pick up just today's newspaper and still get it (this doesn't work with, say orphan annie--but calvin &hobbes, better or worse , etc... do this well. you almost don't realize it's a continuing story till it's collected in 1 book.

It's more evident in PvP by Scott Kurtz and Frank Cho's Liberty Meadows. Boy, that guy draws boobs like nobody's business.

Nick Kerklaan
10-05-2007, 01:28 PM
Well, I do disagree with the part about creating because essentially, nobody can create anything, it's all based on what's already been, rather discoveries, I think is a better statement. But Bendis is not much of a storyteller with his art, and considering a lot of it is actually spliced in photos, I think it's safe to say most here would be appalled if he were put in such a place.

What? Now you're just playing around with semantics. If you're a novelist and you write a novel you have created a novel. The novel is your creation, regardless of where you pulled the ideas for it from. Likewise if you are a comic book writer and you write a comic book script you have created the words that will become a comic book. By your logic you can't create a novel or comic book script, you can only "discover" it? I'm sorry but that's kind of crazy. You're reading too much into the word "create" I think.

xombey
10-05-2007, 02:52 PM
i've heard this from people like john byrne and kurt busiek. they basically contend that their are these establiushed archetypes, and all everyone does, is put their spin on it. superman jesus christ/eternal child, silver surfer = jesus christ, galactus = God, batman = revenge fantasy, etc...

even new things start off as versions of old things. for instance a lot of web comics are just still imah=ges that you click on to load the next "page". somewhere down the line it will become common place to use a method that's more intrinsic to what a computer can do

CWmax
10-05-2007, 02:53 PM
I'll just settle this....

John Buscema is the best ever.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/cwmax/ss1.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/cwmax/thorvsss.jpg
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/cwmax/ConanBuscema.jpg


CW

JJ McKool
10-05-2007, 08:48 PM
I won't say he's not good, but I'll just say something I don't like about that Conan piece (assuming that's Conan). The lines with the brush, or pen, I'm not sure about what you would use, but they look too shaky. I can understand it's a speed and time constraint thing, but then that is just a pin-up. I noticed Kubert has that in his art a lot because of how fast he works, but it's just not much a plus for me. Anybody else see what I'm talking about?

JJ McKool
10-05-2007, 08:55 PM
i've heard this from people like john byrne and kurt busiek. they basically contend that their are these establiushed archetypes, and all everyone does, is put their spin on it. superman jesus christ/eternal child, silver surfer = jesus christ, galactus = God, batman = revenge fantasy, etc...

even new things start off as versions of old things. for instance a lot of web comics are just still imah=ges that you click on to load the next "page". somewhere down the line it will become common place to use a method that's more intrinsic to what a computer can do
There's a philosophical ideology that this all sort of stems from, I don't suppose you would know the name? I heard an argument on it, and it made a ton of sense, I just don't remember the name it was called.

Moonrider
10-05-2007, 10:52 PM
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/cwmax/ConanBuscema.jpg

I won't say he's not good, but I'll just say something I don't like about that Conan piece (assuming that's Conan). The lines with the brush, or pen, I'm not sure about what you would use, but they look too shaky. I can understand it's a speed and time constraint thing, but then that is just a pin-up. I noticed Kubert has that in his art a lot because of how fast he works, but it's just not much a plus for me. Anybody else see what I'm talking about?

Nope. You just don't like it, that's all. :)

Seriously, it's a great piece with good anatomy and a clever use of light and dark. Most likely he use no sketch and draw directly into the paper with ink. I could be wrong about that but it's still incredibly hard to draw with a brush even if you use sketches. I don't see any faulty lines or muddy strokes there, which goes to say that this guy is a master.

Nick Kerklaan
10-06-2007, 02:01 AM
i've heard this from people like john byrne and kurt busiek. they basically contend that their are these establiushed archetypes, and all everyone does, is put their spin on it. superman jesus christ/eternal child, silver surfer = jesus christ, galactus = God, batman = revenge fantasy, etc...

even new things start off as versions of old things. for instance a lot of web comics are just still imah=ges that you click on to load the next "page". somewhere down the line it will become common place to use a method that's more intrinsic to what a computer can do

Yeah but even if all anyone does is put their own spin on archetypes, even if creators are just putting together different existing ideas to make "new" ideas, that's still creating. Synthesis is still creation. A peanut butter and jelly sandwich may consist of peanut butter, jelly, and bread, but its also its own entity distinct from any of the three seperately. To use a really odd and possibly not a hundred percent relevant analogy, but you get the picture. Just because something is created through a combination and manipulation of established, existing elements, doesn't mean its not a creation, or even a stunningly original creation. There are a lot of elements to be combined and manipulated.

And while what Kurt Busiek and John Byrne say has merit, and I've heard it from a lot of others, I also think saying "Nothing new can be done" is kind of a cop-out. New things are done all the time. If you break everything down to its base elements, yeah, maybe it'll all seem kind of similar, but art isn't really meant to be broken down into its base elements. Its meant to be enjoyed as it stands, or at the very least not to be dissected and compared to the point that it loses all meaning.

My two cents on that matter.

A.Huerta
10-06-2007, 03:29 AM
frazetta

hardinart
10-06-2007, 04:36 AM
^^ He's right ^^

Moonrider
10-06-2007, 09:53 AM
Yeah but even if all anyone does is put their own spin on archetypes, even if creators are just putting together different existing ideas to make "new" ideas, that's still creating. Synthesis is still creation. A peanut butter and jelly sandwich may consist of peanut butter, jelly, and bread, but its also its own entity distinct from any of the three seperately. To use a really odd and possibly not a hundred percent relevant analogy, but you get the picture. Just because something is created through a combination and manipulation of established, existing elements, doesn't mean its not a creation, or even a stunningly original creation. There are a lot of elements to be combined and manipulated.

And while what Kurt Busiek and John Byrne say has merit, and I've heard it from a lot of others, I also think saying "Nothing new can be done" is kind of a cop-out. New things are done all the time. If you break everything down to its base elements, yeah, maybe it'll all seem kind of similar, but art isn't really meant to be broken down into its base elements. Its meant to be enjoyed as it stands, or at the very least not to be dissected and compared to the point that it loses all meaning.

My two cents on that matter.

I'd say basically there are no new things in this world. But there are always new discoveries, like peanut butter and jelly. Who knew? A guy got too much stuff in his hand and suddenly, BAM! History. A creation in its basic sense can only belong to God. A 'human creation' in essence is the discovery consists of one or more God's creations that are molded and shaped with new perspective into new things. By common language, that's also 'creating'. It's really a matter of how you see it. If you're a very religious guy perhaps you'd say "No, there is nothing new under the sun." and it's not wrong, but there are new things discovered everyday and with millions upon milions of possible outcome, nothing looks exactly the same as the other.

JJ McKool
10-06-2007, 05:34 PM
Makes sense, I don't know if you need to believe in God though, it's more my science side(which feels stupid to say) that makes me think it. It's not that I think, say, all things you make, God just made them through you, you still made it, but it's not creating, it's just really good manipulating.
Yeah but even if all anyone does is put their own spin on archetypes, even if creators are just putting together different existing ideas to make "new" ideas, that's still creating. Synthesis is still creation. A peanut butter and jelly sandwich may consist of peanut butter, jelly, and bread, but its also its own entity distinct from any of the three seperately. To use a really odd and possibly not a hundred percent relevant analogy, but you get the picture. Just because something is created through a combination and manipulation of established, existing elements, doesn't mean its not a creation, or even a stunningly original creation. There are a lot of elements to be combined and manipulated.

And while what Kurt Busiek and John Byrne say has merit, and I've heard it from a lot of others, I also think saying "Nothing new can be done" is kind of a cop-out. New things are done all the time. If you break everything down to its base elements, yeah, maybe it'll all seem kind of similar, but art isn't really meant to be broken down into its base elements. Its meant to be enjoyed as it stands, or at the very least not to be dissected and compared to the point that it loses all meaning.

My two cents on that matter.

I don't believe it's a cop-out, it's a separate understanding on the matter. There can still be new manipulations, but they're still the same elements that you're always using. It's like, everyone's paths may be different, but they're still on the same road, the same world, y'know? When new pathways are made, people see that, and they can go, "Oh, cool, let's try this way" and when they do, they discover new things along the way. I think it's important that people see this, and yet, all perspectives are cool, because they can lead to new paths. Then again, when one path disrupts another, or a million others, like a Hitler's or a Stalin's. It's odd, I never even really thought of it this way, and yet this is my opinion. Very very odd. Thanks for the discussion on the matter too, I like hearing the other ideas out there.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/cwmax/ConanBuscema.jpg



Nope. You just don't like it, that's all. :)

Seriously, it's a great piece with good anatomy and a clever use of light and dark. Most likely he use no sketch and draw directly into the paper with ink. I could be wrong about that but it's still incredibly hard to draw with a brush even if you use sketches. I don't see any faulty lines or muddy strokes there, which goes to say that this guy is a master.
I do see muddy strokes and faulty lines, but I see where you're coming from, it is mostly a taste thing. The piece just doesn't seem as refined to me, to be regarded as one of those great works.
http://www.bilderberg.org/frazetta.gif

See, like I can see similarities between what's good about both of these, but I far better like this one, as it's smoother. I'm also just not really a fan of the feathering technique. It's also odd too, because
http://mdifiore.myweb.uga.edu/images/slideshow/frank_frazetta_thesorcerer.jpg
Both of those have elements in them that I don't like in the Conan piece, yet, I like them there. There must be a reason to it, might just be I don't like it in inks. Then again I sorta like that second pencilled piece in spite of it.

hardinart
10-06-2007, 07:04 PM
I do see muddy strokes and faulty lines, but I see where you're coming from, it is mostly a taste thing. The piece just doesn't seem as refined to me, to be regarded as one of those great works.
http://www.bilderberg.org/frazetta.gif

See, like I can see similarities between what's good about both of these, but I far better like this one, as it's smoother. I'm also just not really a fan of the feathering technique. It's also odd too, because
http://mdifiore.myweb.uga.edu/images/slideshow/frank_frazetta_thesorcerer.jpg
Both of those have elements in them that I don't like in the Conan piece, yet, I like them there. There must be a reason to it, might just be I don't like it in inks. Then again I sorta like that second pencilled piece in spite of it.

Data its called rendering.

JJ McKool
10-06-2007, 09:31 PM
That could be partly why, but then explain my like of these then:
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u50/jjmckool/noto21.jpg
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u50/jjmckool/NOTO9.jpg
Moonrider was right, it is mostly a taste thing.

Moonrider
10-08-2007, 09:24 AM
John Buscema's work always look better uncolored in black and white. His old Wolverine stuff was totally fucked up by the inker and the colorist.

I like the art of John's brother Sal Buscema better, with more straight lines and less the rendering. It doesn't tend to get lost in color, which is a good thing. But nobody ever really pay attention to Sal's work.

xombey
10-08-2007, 11:49 AM
i liked sal. but i think they're cousins, not brothers.

kdmelrose
10-08-2007, 11:51 AM
They're brothers (or, rather, were; John died in 2002).

CWmax
10-10-2007, 09:09 AM
John Buscema's work always look better uncolored in black and white. His old Wolverine stuff was totally fucked up by the inker and the colorist.
.


Werent the inkers on his Wolverine stuff Klaus Janson and Bill Sienkiewicz?


more JB Goodness....
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/cwmax/thor224.jpg


Just an 'average' JB cover---But still pretty awesome


CW

Moonrider
10-10-2007, 09:32 AM
Werent the inkers on his Wolverine stuff Klaus Janson and Bill Sienkiewicz?


No matter how big those names are, they were terrible in my eyes. Not a big fan of Janson's inks either.

John Buscema's art actually look better when his brother do the inks. IMHO.

CWmax
10-10-2007, 10:09 AM
I like Alfredo Alcacla inks over JB Conan.....

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/cwmax/jbaaconan.jpg


http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t165/cwmax/jbaaconan2.jpg


NICE!

CW

Atula Siriwardane
10-11-2007, 01:27 PM
John Buscema drawing Conan...
always....

Steve Robinson
10-23-2007, 10:42 PM
By far
John Buscema
ADAM HUGHES
Joe Quesada
Mark Silvestri
Jim Lee
Nuff said

Rob Norton
10-23-2007, 11:09 PM
By far
John Buscema
ADAM HUGHES
Joe Quesada
Mark Silvestri
Jim Lee
Nuff said


man...i like your choices there..

rob

Gabriel Solis
10-29-2007, 05:05 PM
I'm too lazy to post links, but my top guys...

Frazetta
Simon Biz
Quesada
Rudy Nebres
Dave Mazzuchelli
Richard Corben
Will Eisner
Dale Keown
and Wally f***in' Wood

JJ McKool
10-30-2007, 04:01 PM
Nice list. I can't believe I never got into Quesada until well after he became el chiefo.

jas
11-01-2007, 10:02 AM
albert Uderzo. :) :)

Joshua P
11-02-2007, 03:32 AM
Wow. Way too hard. All time? I can't pick just one. So I'm going to write a list. And believe me, I'm leaving a lot of people out. That said I will say that for the most part I don't think Joe Mad, Michael Turner and guys like him are the best comic artists. They draw some of the prettiest pictures, but the story element in their work often times is missing.

And really, that's the key to comics. Great Storytelling.

Here's a brief list:

Carl Barks - The Uncle Scrooge Creator is a master story teller and his Scrooge comics are great.

Barry Windsor Smith - I just love the detail he puts into his work. He also is a great storyteller in his own right.

Colleen Doran - Her style has an epic playfulness that's unique. She can make you laugh and cry in the same panel. Not too many have her depth of emotion in each panel.

James A. Owen - His detail is mind boggling. I could spend days looking at one picture and not get the whole story in it. The depth and scope are just awesome.

Rob Osborne - a Natural cartoonist. He tells more of a story in one panel than some artists do in whole comics.

George Perez - He's the perfect superhero artist. Honestly, I can't think of anyone better or as consistant other than maybe Mark Bagley.

Stan Sakai - He's a lot like Barks...just an amazing Storyteller.

Darick Robertson - Has a great gift for drawing the normal and the absurd. He's detailed and just fast. I love his stuff for that reason.

Craig Thompson - Seriously, read Blankets. It's amazing.

Jeff Smith - He's just so good. It seems so simple in comparison to some of the artists but he's just so gifted with the kind of tales he tells. McCloud talks about the concept of cartoon like images in comics. Jeff is the best example I think. Just a genius.

JP

Moonrider
11-02-2007, 10:40 AM
albert Uderzo. :) :)

:thumbs:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/6789/uderzoundgoscinnyfi0.jpg

rantz
11-02-2007, 12:22 PM
Hands down, the Best comic book artist in the history of comics is Will Eisner. Why do you think the highest awards given out to people within our industry are called: The Eisner?......

Inspirations, fan fav's, flavor of the moments, do not make the greatest of all time. Turner, Campbell, Lee, Mignola, Miller, Mad, Ramos, Romita's, Buscema (sp?) - all great artists of thier time, but certainly not he greatest of ALL time.

IMHO......

kdmelrose
11-02-2007, 12:29 PM
Why do you think the highest awards given out to people within our industry are called: The Eisner?

Because there was a big fight over ownership of the Jack Kirby Award, so the Eisner Awards and the Harvey Awards were created as a compromise?

Oh, wait, that's not what you meant.

:p

Mike225
11-02-2007, 12:30 PM
By 2012, it'll be called the Quesada Awards.

Phatman
11-02-2007, 12:48 PM
Hands down, the Best comic book artist in the history of comics is Will Eisner. Why do you think the highest awards given out to people within our industry are called: The Eisner?......

Hands down is a tough call. Eisner is great, but I don't put him up as the greatest. His work is not perfect. I think it's one of the most important to the history of the medium, but is he any more important than somebody like Jack Kirby-for one example?


Inspirations, fan fav's, flavor of the moments, do not make the greatest of all time. Turner, Campbell, Lee, Mignola, Miller, Mad, Ramos, Romita's, Buscema (sp?) - all great artists of thier time, but certainly not he greatest of ALL time.

IMHO......

I know this is just your opinion, but lumping Mignola, Miller, Buscema and the Romita's in with guys like Joe Mad, Turner or Cambell is absurd. These guys are hardly qualified as "fan faves" or flashes in the pan.