PDA

View Full Version : Spandex


Jonzeartist
02-13-2007, 08:25 PM
There is a disturbing trend in comics which I think needs to change and that's spandex. Even on ladies it can look kinda silly but on guys it's just silly.

Now when Image Comics started the creators wanted to make their own work and own it, have complete control. I respect that and wished them well but I was bummed when they came out with the work they did: Guys in spandex, for the most part anyway.

Rob Liefeld, who sold his soul to the devil, made a horrible team "Youngblood" who all just looked stupid. I'm of the opinion that if you cannot imagine it in real life and not LAUGH then draw it. For example: Hugh Jackman in yellow and blue spandex.

But there are some new comics that have come out that just follow the same old forumla. It's like was there a written rule that requires comic characters to wear bright colored tights? Comics come in many different styles and some are not always about superheroes.

If I were in charge of a comic company...I would avoid making comics about superheroes and NO NO NO spandex!!!

Jon

Kep!
02-13-2007, 08:55 PM
There is a disturbing trend in comics which I think needs to change and that's spandex. Even on ladies it can look kinda silly but on guys it's just silly.

Ummm...yeah. You do realize that since 1985 (that's a long time ago for those without a calendar nearby) this is pretty much par for the course? Hell, Wildstorm, Vertigo and Dark Horse and Image (Crossgen...Chaos...IDW...getting the point?) were all founded with this as one of the tenements (not exclusive, sure, but as a rule).

Now, you can dis Liefield all you want...lot of folks do. Fact is, Rob's good folks. But, more importantly to this discussion, Rob's drawn comics that have sold more than ONE MILLION copies per issue...Youngblood #1-4 were some of them. Before you slam a guy outright because it's the "popular" thing to do, look in the mirror and ask yourself what you've done to forward comics as an art? Say what you will about Rob, you're not saying anything new, but FIFTEEN YEARS later, you're still talking about him...clearly he's had an impact on YOU.

Please DO have an opinion...hell, have a really unpopular one...or in your case a popular one...but try to say something original not simply regurgitate what every 14 year old kid standing in line at the candy counter has said before.

:slap:

The Scribe
02-13-2007, 10:01 PM
Now, you can dis Liefield all you want...lot of folks do. Fact is, Rob's good folks. But, more importantly to this discussion, Rob's drawn comics that have sold more than ONE MILLION copies per issue...Youngblood #1-4 were some of them. Before you slam a guy outright because it's the "popular" thing to do, look in the mirror and ask yourself what you've done to forward comics as an art? Say what you will about Rob, you're not saying anything new, but FIFTEEN YEARS later, you're still talking about him...clearly he's had an impact on YOU.


Agreed. I like Liefeld and his characters. He's done more for comics than most will ever do. His comics still sell well. :har: :p

People are jealous of talent. Look at how many are coming out against Michael Turner.

I'm surprised and glad no one did this to Jack Kirby.

Jonzeartist
02-13-2007, 10:29 PM
Ummm...yeah. You do realize that since 1985 (that's a long time ago for those without a calendar nearby) this is pretty much par for the course? Hell, Wildstorm, Vertigo and Dark Horse and Image (Crossgen...Chaos...IDW...getting the point?) were all founded with this as one of the tenements (not exclusive, sure, but as a rule).

Now, you can dis Liefield all you want...lot of folks do. Fact is, Rob's good folks. But, more importantly to this discussion, Rob's drawn comics that have sold more than ONE MILLION copies per issue...Youngblood #1-4 were some of them. Before you slam a guy outright because it's the "popular" thing to do, look in the mirror and ask yourself what you've done to forward comics as an art? Say what you will about Rob, you're not saying anything new, but FIFTEEN YEARS later, you're still talking about him...clearly he's had an impact on YOU.

Please DO have an opinion...hell, have a really unpopular one...or in your case a popular one...but try to say something original not simply regurgitate what every 14 year old kid standing in line at the candy counter has said before.

:slap:

Okay I'm not going to debate why Liefeld sucks, if you don't see it then it's pointless to try and convince you. But what I'm saying is that look how many cliched characters there are. Still the superheroes who go out and fight supervillains. It might have been neat in the past when my DAD was a kid but there are people who still come out with so called new work with the same stuff that's been done over and over again. I'm merely using spandex as a symbol of this.

Jon

Jonzeartist
02-13-2007, 10:31 PM
Agreed. I like Liefeld and his characters. He's done more for comics than most will ever do. His comics still sell well. :har: :p

People are jealous of talent. Look at how many are coming out against Michael Turner.

I'm surprised and glad no one did this to Jack Kirby.

Rob's work sells well because people's standards are low.

Michael Turner is just fine, he has many great qualities though many of his female characters look a lot alike...thought they are babes so we'll forgive him. I don' tknow of ANYONE coming out against Turner.

Jon

Buckyrig
02-13-2007, 10:36 PM
Now, you can dis Liefield all you want...lot of folks do. Fact is, Rob's good folks. But, more importantly to this discussion, Rob's drawn comics that have sold more than ONE MILLION copies per issue...Youngblood #1-4 were some of them. Before you slam a guy outright because it's the "popular" thing to do, look in the mirror and ask yourself what you've done to forward comics as an art? Say what you will about Rob, you're not saying anything new, but FIFTEEN YEARS later, you're still talking about him...clearly he's had an impact on YOU.

Jim and Robbie sittin' in a tree... :p

The Scribe
02-13-2007, 10:50 PM
Rob's work sells well because people's standards are low.

:man: I'd say because people are jealous. :p


Michael Turner is just fine, he has many great qualities though many of his female characters look a lot alike...thought they are babes so we'll forgive him. I don' tknow of ANYONE coming out against Turner.

Jon

I've seen people on this forum say things and that his art should be used less.

I'm not saying people are against him as much as they are Liefeld.

Kep!
02-14-2007, 12:16 AM
Okay I'm not going to debate why Liefeld sucks, if you don't see it then it's pointless to try and convince you. But what I'm saying is that look how many cliched characters there are. Still the superheroes who go out and fight supervillains. It might have been neat in the past when my DAD was a kid but there are people who still come out with so called new work with the same stuff that's been done over and over again. I'm merely using spandex as a symbol of this.

Jon
Clearly you missed the point...not hard to imagine as you barely had one...you're ranting a rant that would have been timely in 1985 and has been only going downhill ever since. The ENTIRE deconstructionist movement of the 1990s was based around ridding the world of spandex but here you are touting it like it's your original idea and then tossing out a name simply for an emotional tag not because it had any relevance whatsoever.

Rob was HARDLY the purveyor, instigator, or worst offender of the spandex craze that started in 1938 and has run close to 70 years...in fact, as innovators go, he did little more than ride the wave. However, you decided to pick on him because you thought that was a cool idea and because everyone else picks on him. That's stupid. At 32 years old (By that I mean you Jonez...you're 32, right? Almost 32? Whatever) I'd expect a guy who calls himself an artist to have a take that doesn't suck...yet, your take did. If you want to debate the current state of deconstructionist storytelling in comics, then lets debate it...i have lots to say on the subject, but why go out slamming a guy who has nothing to do with the topic you propose? That's like suggesting we invade Iraq because it has WMDs. Again, that's stupid.

BTW- there are MANY, MANY comics out there for you...a supposed grown up who doesn't like spandex...I know, I've written some...but the #1 reason the undies-and-PJ books sell is still the same as ever: people actually read them. I know, I've written them too.

So, yeah, you can sit here and try to sound cool because you can rattle off the wanna-be comic artist line that Rob sucks OR you can actually discuss what you can and are doing about it. What's it gonna be?

Kep!
02-14-2007, 12:18 AM
Jim and Robbie sittin' in a tree... :p
You're just jealous. There's a rope ladder around the back if you wanna climb up...ignore the sign that says NO GIRLZ ALLOWD...we didn't mean you. :D

RandallFlagg
02-14-2007, 12:18 AM
Whoo! Someone give Kep points in my name!

Mr.Musgrave
02-14-2007, 02:06 AM
Agreed. I like Liefeld and his characters. He's done more for comics than most will ever do. His comics still sell well. :har: :p

People are jealous of talent. Look at how many are coming out against Michael Turner.

I'm surprised and glad no one did this to Jack Kirby.


#1. The Nazis did a lot for the advancement of medicine, that doesn't excuse what they did the rest of the time.

#2. "People are jealous" is the most fanboy statement that could ever be made. I cannot stand Liefeld or Mike Turner. They are bad artists. I don't care if you want to call it style or anything else. As an artist I can tell you their work is of poor quality and I would sooner stop drawing all together than to draw like either of them.

And sales do not equal quality.

#3. No one came out against Jack Kirby because Kirby was NOT an artist of poor quality. Kirby was an innovator. Liefeld is a tracer.

RandallFlagg
02-14-2007, 02:16 AM
I think it's best to just ignore him, Steve. Otherwise, this will just turn into another "Liefeld sucks!" "Nuh-uh!" "Uh-huh!" thread. While I do agree with you, I think Kep was right about how there's really no need to get into that.

Mr.Musgrave
02-14-2007, 02:27 AM
I think it's best to just ignore him, Steve. Otherwise, this will just turn into another "Liefeld sucks!" "Nuh-uh!" "Uh-huh!" thread. While I do agree with you, I think Kep was right about how there's really no need to get into that.


You're right. I just can't stand that people live under the delusion that there are artist's out there jealous of Rob fucking Liefeld's "talent."

Yeah, I really wish I was unable to draw anything but clenched fists and pockets on mis-proportioned people who all look the same. I also wish I was a known tracer. Twice.

Moonrider
02-14-2007, 05:42 AM
If I remember the early Image days none of the founding members do anything other than stick to their winning formula, or just continuing whatever they were famous from back at Marvel.
Jim Lee did X-Men. WildCATS early on was an X-Men lookalike team book.
Rob fucking Liefeld did X-Force. Youngblood was an X-Force lookalike team.
Todd McFarlane did Spider-Man VS Venom. Spawn was pretty much an amalgam of Spawn and Venom.
etc.
The fact is, they were mainstream artists and mainstream superheroes wear spandex. Why, I have no idea (the only reason I could think of is so that artists can draw boobies without the Comics Code Authority on their case) but to make a change in the world of comics fashion you need lots and lots of fact that superheroes can look cool without spandex.

Besides it's not really spandex anyway, I usually just draw nekkid girls in body paints.:P

SethNI
02-14-2007, 08:55 AM
Fact is, Spandex sells. There are a lot of books that don't involve spandex-clad superheroes, and as far as I am aware, some of them sell well, too. But Spandex based books sell the most. You want to run a comic company and not make the money, go right ahead, no one will stop you. You want your books to sell, spandex is the way.

This message was brought to you by the Say Yes to Spandex Party.

Kep!
02-14-2007, 10:14 AM
You're right. I just can't stand that people live under the delusion that there are artist's out there jealous of Rob fucking Liefeld's "talent."

Yeah, I really wish I was unable to draw anything but clenched fists and pockets on mis-proportioned people who all look the same. I also wish I was a known tracer. Twice.
Honestly, I think there ARE some who are jealous of his talent...admittedly few, but some. I believe there are MANY more who are jealous of his success (rightly)...and I believe that was the point of the whole jealous statement.

My issue here was simply the tossing out of a name as if he had something to do with the problem the original poster seemed to have...which he doesn't. You might as well blame Stan Lee for the the way Robin was added to Batman to give him curb appeal...nothing to do with it whatsoever.

Kep!
02-14-2007, 10:15 AM
If I remember the early Image days none of the founding members do anything other than stick to their winning formula, or just continuing whatever they were famous from back at Marvel.
Jim Lee did X-Men. WildCATS early on was an X-Men lookalike team book.
Rob fucking Liefeld did X-Force. Youngblood was an X-Force lookalike team.
Todd McFarlane did Spider-Man VS Venom. Spawn was pretty much an amalgam of Spawn and Venom.
etc.
The fact is, they were mainstream artists and mainstream superheroes wear spandex. Why, I have no idea (the only reason I could think of is so that artists can draw boobies without the Comics Code Authority on their case) but to make a change in the world of comics fashion you need lots and lots of fact that superheroes can look cool without spandex.

Besides it's not really spandex anyway, I usually just draw nekkid girls in body paints.:P
you are QUITE correct about the founders (most)...i was thinking of the early...and then later...folks who published through Image...lots of anti-spandex in there. Lots.

Kep!
02-14-2007, 10:20 AM
Fact is, Spandex sells. There are a lot of books that don't involve spandex-clad superheroes, and as far as I am aware, some of them sell well, too. But Spandex based books sell the most. You want to run a comic company and not make the money, go right ahead, no one will stop you. You want your books to sell, spandex is the way.

This message was brought to you by the Say Yes to Spandex Party.
Correct! At the end of the day, the male power fantasy is the driving force behind comics. is there room for more? HELL YES! Please give me something else. PLEASE! But "most" readers aren't going to seek out your Bone, Rex Mundi or Kabuki...often out of ignorance because they are hidden in those dark albatrosses we call comic shops instead of readily available at the local Kum-n-Go...that's where we, as the creators of books-that-don't-suck have to step up and demand wider coverage...until we do, people will think wearing underpants on the outside is normal.

Jonzeartist
02-14-2007, 12:42 PM
Clearly you missed the point...not hard to imagine as you barely had one...you're ranting a rant that would have been timely in 1985 and has been only going downhill ever since. The ENTIRE deconstructionist movement of the 1990s was based around ridding the world of spandex but here you are touting it like it's your original idea and then tossing out a name simply for an emotional tag not because it had any relevance whatsoever.

Rob was HARDLY the purveyor, instigator, or worst offender of the spandex craze that started in 1938 and has run close to 70 years...in fact, as innovators go, he did little more than ride the wave. However, you decided to pick on him because you thought that was a cool idea and because everyone else picks on him. That's stupid. At 32 years old (By that I mean you Jonez...you're 32, right? Almost 32? Whatever) I'd expect a guy who calls himself an artist to have a take that doesn't suck...yet, your take did. If you want to debate the current state of deconstructionist storytelling in comics, then lets debate it...i have lots to say on the subject, but why go out slamming a guy who has nothing to do with the topic you propose? That's like suggesting we invade Iraq because it has WMDs. Again, that's stupid.

BTW- there are MANY, MANY comics out there for you...a supposed grown up who doesn't like spandex...I know, I've written some...but the #1 reason the undies-and-PJ books sell is still the same as ever: people actually read them. I know, I've written them too.

So, yeah, you can sit here and try to sound cool because you can rattle off the wanna-be comic artist line that Rob sucks OR you can actually discuss what you can and are doing about it. What's it gonna be?

You're baiting me into something which will only turn into pointless name calling. Go to school for a few years and study art and the human anatomy and you'll start to see why I (and many other artists) do not like Rob's work.

As for spandex, for some reason it sells I don' tknow why. Maybe it's just because it's tradition in comics. But I'm saying that having Superman still around is fine but coming out with the same old thing and claim that it's "new" is not cool.

Jon

Phatman
02-14-2007, 12:49 PM
#1. The Nazis did a lot for the advancement of medicine, that doesn't excuse what they did the rest of the time.

#2. "People are jealous" is the most fanboy statement that could ever be made. I cannot stand Liefeld or Mike Turner. They are bad artists. I don't care if you want to call it style or anything else. As an artist I can tell you their work is of poor quality and I would sooner stop drawing all together than to draw like either of them.

And sales do not equal quality.

#3. No one came out against Jack Kirby because Kirby was NOT an artist of poor quality. Kirby was an innovator. Liefeld is a tracer.

End of debate-goodnight now.

Kep!
02-14-2007, 01:10 PM
You're baiting me into something which will only turn into pointless name calling. Go to school for a few years and study art and the human anatomy and you'll start to see why I (and many other artists) do not like Rob's work.



Yeah, clearly I don't know a thing about art...oh wait, this wasn't about art, it was about you referencing a non-player because you thought it would make you sound cool. I still have no idea why you're blaming Rob for the spandex...THAT was my point. Wow, you REALLY missed the point of your own thread.

As for spandex, for some reason it sells I don' tknow why. Maybe it's just because it's tradition in comics. But I'm saying that having Superman still around is fine but coming out with the same old thing and claim that it's "new" is not cool.

Brilliantly said 22 years ago. Thanks for bringing so much to collective discussion of comics.

Buckyrig
02-14-2007, 01:18 PM
You're just jealous. There's a rope ladder around the back if you wanna climb up...ignore the sign that says NO GIRLZ ALLOWD...we didn't mean you. :D

Do you have any amyl nitrate? It's just not a rodeo otherwise.

Kep!
02-14-2007, 02:02 PM
Do you have any amyl nitrate? It's just not a rodeo otherwise.
There's a joke in there...I'm sure of it...now to go break out my old Chem texts and figure it out. Heh.

The Scribe
02-14-2007, 02:55 PM
Honestly, I think there ARE some who are jealous of his talent...admittedly few, but some. I believe there are MANY more who are jealous of his success (rightly)...and I believe that was the point of the whole jealous statement.

My issue here was simply the tossing out of a name as if he had something to do with the problem the original poster seemed to have...which he doesn't. You might as well blame Stan Lee for the the way Robin was added to Batman to give him curb appeal...nothing to do with it whatsoever.

What Kep! said Musgrave. I'm tired of Liefeld is bad for comic threads.

I believe more than will admit are jealous of Liefeld and Turner, or there wouldn't be so many that come out against them, more against Liefeld than Turner. If you don't like them don't buy their comics. But, they will still sell comics.

You can't compare Nazi's and comic creators. :yawn:

If Liefeld and Turner were so awful then they wouldn't sell comics. (millions)

If you don't like a certain creator don't buy their comics. Simple enough.

But, apparently a lot of people agree that Turner and Liefeld are great. So, they buy their comics. I also buy independent comics like Bone, etc.

But, I started with superheroes and I'll continue to buy them.

The Scribe
02-14-2007, 02:58 PM
I'd like to add, if there weren't "fanboys" that buy as many comics as I do.

The comic industry would go out of business.

Kep!
02-14-2007, 03:20 PM
I'd like to add, if there weren't "fanboys" that buy as many comics as I do.

The comic industry would go out of business.
Thank you for paying my water bill this month. :)

The Scribe
02-14-2007, 03:49 PM
Thank you for paying my water bill this month. :)

I've probably paid more than that. ;)

I have a few comics you've worked on.

A Big Bang comic, I can't find right now but it's somewhere.

Also, I found ShadowHawk #1, that you wrote and lettered.

When are you going to write a Savage Dragon mini-series?

Erik needs a letterer. He's has to much to do. You might want to contact him about that. ;)

I have a loose plot for a Dragon mini-series. :thumbs:

Mr.Musgrave
02-14-2007, 03:53 PM
If Liefeld and Turner were so awful then they wouldn't sell comics. (millions)




SALES DO NOT EQUAL QUALITY.

Imboden
02-14-2007, 04:00 PM
Because its FUN to write superheroes?

That's why *I* do it, at least.

The Scribe
02-14-2007, 04:01 PM
People have different views on quality. You can buy what you want, and others will buy what they want.

It's collectors like me who keep the industry afloat.

People will always buy superhero comics. You have to buy what you want to and that's fine. ;)

The Scribe
02-14-2007, 04:03 PM
Because its FUN to write superheroes?

That's why *I* do it, at least.

That's what I'd like to do someday soon.

I buy Fist of Justice. ;)

The DarkMind
02-14-2007, 04:12 PM
SALES DO NOT EQUAL QUALITY.

No, but sadly sales DO speak louder then quality when it comes to that whole silly business aspect of producing comics.

From an artist stand point its difficult to take this shot to the back of the head, but bottom line comes down to it that for as much as artists spend on comics, there are many more non-artist fanboys that shovel much more money into the comic companies coffers and they don't know the sense of quality that an artist does, they normally cant even tell specifics of WHY they like certain art, they just know if they do or not.

So until the masses change their taste in whats hot and whats not....quality is not something that is going to sway sales figures. And yes that saddens me as much as it does everyone else. :cry:

Biofungus
02-14-2007, 04:18 PM
I buy Fist of Justice. ;)

Suck up.


:p

Mr.Musgrave
02-14-2007, 04:22 PM
No, but sadly sales DO speak louder then quality when it comes to that whole silly business aspect of producing comics.

But I'm not talking about business. I'm talking about art. And I don't care how many idiot fanboys buy rob liefeld comics, the fact is that he is a poor artist. You could take his crap to any respectable art related business and he would never get a job. If not for the 90's boom where ANYONE who could barely draw was hired, he would never have worked in comics at all.

Artistically, he is one of the worst "professional" artists ever. You'd have to be artistically retarded to think his "work" is quality.

heartofglitter
02-14-2007, 04:26 PM
It's obvious that the poster started this topic under the smokescreen of 'spandex,' just to rip at Rob Liefeld; so I am also returning the topic back on-topic.

I've heard the whole, 'why spandex? It's stupid and it sucks!' arguments before, and to be honest, those people always loose. Sure there's the whole sexy image that is brought about by spandex, especially for women. (This has nothing to do with the point I will make though.)
The truth of the matter is, if your a kickass crime fighter who has to be jumping all over the place, getting sweaty, and likely to get caught on whatever, glass, building, telegraph poles etc. etc. Would you prefer to be wearing a huge, flimsy overcoat / pants shirt / whatever; or would you want to get around in something that's comfortable, easy to breathe in, gives you more freedom of movement and less places for people to grab onto to you from, that shows off all your curves / muscles like spandex does?
I was a dancing student for many years, and the only clothing that we brought to any lesson was a leotard. Nothing else cuts it; the fabric and design is so amazingly flexible, and you don't have anything to slip over on.
Think of other professions and people who use tight spandex or lycra suits: swimmers, gymnists, runners, high jumpers, dancers, discus throwers, so, basically any olympian.

Here are some facts about spandex to help prove my point:
* can be stretched over 600% without breaking
* able to be stretched repetitively and still recover original length
* lightweight
* abrasion resistant
* poor strength, but stronger and more durable than rubber
* soft, smooth, and supple
* resistant to body oils, perspiration, lotions, and detergents
* no static or pilling problem

Proved my point yet? ;)

The DarkMind
02-14-2007, 04:33 PM
and that concludes this thread. thank you Cassandra :)

Paul Sanderson
02-14-2007, 04:36 PM
Nice work, Cassandra :)

The simple reply to anyone who doesn't like spandex heroes is:

Don't read them! You don't like 'em, avoid 'em. It ain't hard. But don't use that as a smokescreen for another lame-ass diss on Liefeld thread. I agree, he's a talent-less hack, but we've had that discussion a million times already. For someone complaining about the un-originality of comics, your post, Jonzeartist, is likewise extremely unoriginal!

Kep!
02-14-2007, 04:41 PM
It's obvious that the poster started this topic under the smokescreen of 'spandex,' just to rip at Rob Liefeld; so I am also returning the topic back on-topic.

I've heard the whole, 'why spandex? It's stupid and it sucks!' arguments before, and to be honest, those people always loose. Sure there's the whole sexy image that is brought about by spandex, especially for women. (This has nothing to do with the point I will make though.)
The truth of the matter is, if your a kickass crime fighter who has to be jumping all over the place, getting sweaty, and likely to get caught on whatever, glass, building, telegraph poles etc. etc. Would you prefer to be wearing a huge, flimsy overcoat / pants shirt / whatever; or would you want to get around in something that's comfortable, easy to breathe in, gives you more freedom of movement and less places for people to grab onto to you from, that shows off all your curves / muscles like spandex does?
I was a dancing student for many years, and the only clothing that we brought to any lesson was a leotard. Nothing else cuts it; the fabric and design is so amazingly flexible, and you don't have anything to slip over on.
Think of other professions and people who use tight spandex or lycra suits: swimmers, gymnists, runners, high jumpers, dancers, discus throwers, so, basically any olympian.

Here are some facts about spandex to help prove my point:
* can be stretched over 600% without breaking
* able to be stretched repetitively and still recover original length
* lightweight
* abrasion resistant
* poor strength, but stronger and more durable than rubber
* soft, smooth, and supple
* resistant to body oils, perspiration, lotions, and detergents
* no static or pilling problem

Proved my point yet? ;)
Cass, I like you! Exactly the point I didn't hit...but a very good one. Well done.

The Scribe
02-14-2007, 04:54 PM
Suck up.


:p

:p

Well, Bio do you buy Fist of Justice? :har:

Paul Sanderson
02-14-2007, 04:57 PM
I do :D

heartofglitter
02-14-2007, 05:05 PM
Thanks guys. :laugh: Spandex doesn't always have to look bad either, I mean look at swimmers and runners there days; their outfits are so well designed, and just look awesome.
And amen to your post Frank; like-wise, no-one is forcing anyone to look at anyone of Liefeld's work, so if they don't like him, just avoid his work. End of story.

Imboden
02-14-2007, 05:22 PM
That's what I'd like to do someday soon.

I buy Fist of Justice. ;)

And you're a better person for it. :D

Scott Story
02-14-2007, 05:30 PM
I think some of the supers in tight clothes are wearing spandex, gnomex, dyneema, and some of the other more or less bulletproof fabrics. Batman and his crew would be examples. Some, like Spider-Man, probably still wear spandex or lycra; he's got his spider-sense to avoid bullets, so he's not worred about turning hot lead. Just a thought. :whistlin:

Imboden
02-14-2007, 05:37 PM
Here are some facts about spandex to help prove my point:
* can be stretched over 600% without breaking
* able to be stretched repetitively and still recover original length
* lightweight
* abrasion resistant
* poor strength, but stronger and more durable than rubber
* soft, smooth, and supple
* resistant to body oils, perspiration, lotions, and detergents
* no static or pilling problem


AND superhero folks look good in 'em. Rooowwr! :w00t:

:slap:

JamieRoberts
02-14-2007, 06:24 PM
Every form of entertainment is populated by a few amazing works, diamonds in the rough, supported by countless examples of tried-and-true formulaic efforts of varying quality. Spandex is the lifeblood of comics. It dies, comics die (as things stand). Same as if CG-heavy blockbuster films died, the movie industry as we know it would cease to be. Manufactured pop stars? Don't underestimate the teenage girl factor in supporting the music business. You just have to look at a bookstore to see hundreds of 'gritty' or 'noir' crime thrillers, chick lit or formula sci-fi.

If every single comic reader chose to drop one spandex title and pick up Mouse Guard or Kabuki instead, it'd be a start. Likely to happen? Nah.

Biofungus
02-14-2007, 07:16 PM
It's obvious that the poster started this topic under the smokescreen of 'spandex,' just to rip at Rob Liefeld; so I am also returning the topic back on-topic.

I've heard the whole, 'why spandex? It's stupid and it sucks!' arguments before, and to be honest, those people always loose. Sure there's the whole sexy image that is brought about by spandex, especially for women. (This has nothing to do with the point I will make though.)
The truth of the matter is, if your a kickass crime fighter who has to be jumping all over the place, getting sweaty, and likely to get caught on whatever, glass, building, telegraph poles etc. etc. Would you prefer to be wearing a huge, flimsy overcoat / pants shirt / whatever; or would you want to get around in something that's comfortable, easy to breathe in, gives you more freedom of movement and less places for people to grab onto to you from, that shows off all your curves / muscles like spandex does?
I was a dancing student for many years, and the only clothing that we brought to any lesson was a leotard. Nothing else cuts it; the fabric and design is so amazingly flexible, and you don't have anything to slip over on.
Think of other professions and people who use tight spandex or lycra suits: swimmers, gymnists, runners, high jumpers, dancers, discus throwers, so, basically any olympian.

Here are some facts about spandex to help prove my point:
* can be stretched over 600% without breaking
* able to be stretched repetitively and still recover original length
* lightweight
* abrasion resistant
* poor strength, but stronger and more durable than rubber
* soft, smooth, and supple
* resistant to body oils, perspiration, lotions, and detergents
* no static or pilling problem

Proved my point yet? ;)
I'd like to add (since you brought it up), the "original" atheletes (the Greek Olympians) performed naked for maximum movement freedom. Spandex is the Comic Code authority's version of naked :p

Biofungus
02-14-2007, 07:17 PM
:p

Well, Bio do you buy Fist of Justice? :har:
My buying habits are none of your beeswax. Nobody's buying habits are of any business to anyone else, which is why I called you a suck up ;)

Moonrider
02-14-2007, 07:21 PM
The use of spandex is also related to an older tradition in art, which is the depiction of heroic proportion in anatomy. You want to make your heroes look powerful? Show their muscles, draw them in revealing poses, and what better way to do that than make them wear tight spandex? Superheroes are all about exaggeration. Artists like Liefeld have nothing to do with that, they just tend to...um, exaggerate more.

Spandex is the Comic Code authority's version of naked :p

I totally said that! :laugh:

DarkKni9hT
02-15-2007, 01:36 AM
It's obvious that the poster started this topic under the smokescreen of 'spandex,' just to rip at Rob Liefeld; so I am also returning the topic back on-topic.

I've heard the whole, 'why spandex? It's stupid and it sucks!' arguments before, and to be honest, those people always loose. Sure there's the whole sexy image that is brought about by spandex, especially for women. (This has nothing to do with the point I will make though.)
The truth of the matter is, if your a kickass crime fighter who has to be jumping all over the place, getting sweaty, and likely to get caught on whatever, glass, building, telegraph poles etc. etc. Would you prefer to be wearing a huge, flimsy overcoat / pants shirt / whatever; or would you want to get around in something that's comfortable, easy to breathe in, gives you more freedom of movement and less places for people to grab onto to you from, that shows off all your curves / muscles like spandex does?
I was a dancing student for many years, and the only clothing that we brought to any lesson was a leotard. Nothing else cuts it; the fabric and design is so amazingly flexible, and you don't have anything to slip over on.
Think of other professions and people who use tight spandex or lycra suits: swimmers, gymnists, runners, high jumpers, dancers, discus throwers, so, basically any olympian.

Here are some facts about spandex to help prove my point:
* can be stretched over 600% without breaking
* able to be stretched repetitively and still recover original length
* lightweight
* abrasion resistant
* poor strength, but stronger and more durable than rubber
* soft, smooth, and supple
* resistant to body oils, perspiration, lotions, and detergents
* no static or pilling problem

Proved my point yet? ;)
EXCELLENT point and right on topic too!!!! Yer FIRED!!! :laugh: :laugh:
Seriously though, you forgot skiers, which brings up another fine point: aerodynamics. Many superheroes fly, and what better way to cut the drag of wind resistance than to limit the amount of fabric that the air can catch? Spandex is perfect for this application.

Paul Sanderson
02-15-2007, 03:12 AM
You know, those ancient Greeks would have worn spandex had it existed back then :p

Imboden
02-15-2007, 11:36 AM
My buying habits are none of your beeswax. Nobody's buying habits are of any business to anyone else, which is why I called you a suck up ;)

You don't buy it, do you. :cry:

You're off my Christmas card list! :mad:

Kep!
02-15-2007, 12:34 PM
You don't buy it, do you. :cry:

You're off my Christmas card list! :mad:
He was on it?!?

Imboden
02-15-2007, 01:42 PM
He was on it?!?

Of course he was! :whistlin:

(Shhhhh, no he wasn't. I just said that to try'n hurt his feelings. Keep that between you and me, okay? Thanks.)

Biofungus
02-15-2007, 01:49 PM
He was on it?!?
^what he said^

The Scribe
02-15-2007, 02:08 PM
My buying habits are none of your beeswax. Nobody's buying habits are of any business to anyone else, which is why I called you a suck up ;)

Well, after a comment like that I'd say you don't buy it. Shameful. :p

I've never had a response like that on here or on the CBR forums. :har: :whistlin:

The Scribe
02-15-2007, 02:14 PM
You know, those ancient Greeks would have worn spandex had it existed back then :p

Maybe.

I heard that only young men could participate or attend the early Olympics. ;)

During the ancient times normally only young men could participate. Competitors were usually naked, not only as the weather was appropriate but also as the festival was meant to be, in part, a celebration of the achievements of the human body. Upon winning the games, the victor would have not only the prestige of being in first place but would also be presented with a crown of olive leaves. The olive branch is a sign of hope and peace.

Even though the bearing of a torch formed an integral aspect of Greek ceremonies, the ancient Olympic Games did not include it, nor was there a symbol formed by interconnecting rings. These Olympic symbols were introduced as part of the modern Olympic Games.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympics

Imboden
02-15-2007, 02:19 PM
^what he said^

You didn't get it?

It had a picture of me and Ed dressed as bums sitting next to a raggedy looking fake Christmas tree with stacks of DWP piled around us. He's holding a list titled "People Who Don't Buy DWP" and some gibberish as names on the list. Except for one line where we wrote in actual names to personalize the card. Yours said 'Biofungus' on that line. The inside said "Hope YOU'RE having a good Christmas".

:nyah:

Biofungus
02-15-2007, 02:22 PM
Well, after a comment like that I'd say you don't buy it. Shameful. ;)

I've never had a response like that on here or on the CBR forums.


I responded like that because it was a very judgmental question. If I could afford to buy comics regularly, I probably would consider it, but since I can't, and don't, it's not your place to nanny-nanny-foo-foo what I do and do not buy, nor anybody elses. I scrounged a *lot* just to be able to pay for a subscription to this website. The comics I do read, admittedly, are downloaded.

Congratulations that you can spare the extra few bucks a month to purchase what many more of us probably would had we the same extra few bucks. I'm sure the other several hundred indy publishers on this site who's books you don't purchase also congratulate you. ;) Oh, I'm sorry, was that shameful?

Too bad. Yes, I am being defensive, because too many people here (maybe not you, I admit the jest, but you still bring up a good point) tend to take the high and mighty road because they can afford to purchase the extra indy titles, and feel that just because they can afford it, that everybody else here should be able to also, and that they are somehow better because they're supporting the title. When I worked for a comic/gaming store in NH, I used to order Digital Webbing published titles. We sold almost no comics, so I knew said orders were risky at best, but that was my way of support. You do what you can, when you can, if you feel it's worth it (sorry, but no matter how much I want to support an indy, if a book is crap I'm not supporting it), and nobody has the right to judge you for that.

Biofungus
02-15-2007, 02:24 PM
You didn't get it?

It had a picture of me and Ed dressed as bums sitting next to a raggedy looking fake Christmas tree with stacks of DWP piled around us. He's holding a list titled "People Who Don't Buy DWP" and some gibberish as names on the list. Except for one line where we wrote in actual names to personalize the card. Yours said 'Biofungus' on that line. The inside said "Hope YOU'RE having a good Christmas".

:nyah:
Wow, you're cold man. Real cold...



:laugh:

The Scribe
02-15-2007, 02:30 PM
:blink:

Bio, I wasn't judging you.

If you can't buy it for financial reasons that's fine.

I was just joking with you because you called me a "suck up."

I have little money. I've be known to forgo a bill or two because of my buying habits.

But, I'm almost up to date on most of my bills now. ;)

Biofungus
02-15-2007, 02:50 PM
:blink:

Bio, I wasn't judging you.

If you can't buy it for financial reasons that's fine.

You did it again ;)

So what if I did have the money to buy some comics?

The Scribe
02-15-2007, 03:05 PM
You did it again ;)

So what if I did have the money to buy some comics?

:blink:

I'd say buy what you want to with your money. ;)

Imboden
02-15-2007, 03:36 PM
One thing that Bio said kinda hit me as odd, but the more I thought about it, the more I think it might be the general mindset of most people.

He said "...the extra indy titles..."

Do most people consider indy titles an afterthought; something that is purchased only when the money doesn't get all spent on "regular" books? If one has been following an "Indy title" for some time and then, suddenly, one month the number of "regular" titles burns through that month/week's comic allowance does the person skip the Indy book, or has it achieved "regular" status because of it's quality (or whatever criteria is used to bump a book into "regular" status).

This isn't directed at Bio, just a general observation. Maybe I'm reading too much into four words, maybe not. But I AM curious now.

Thoughts?

Biofungus
02-15-2007, 03:39 PM
:blink:

I'd say buy what you want to with your money. ;)
Thank you :)

Biofungus
02-15-2007, 03:46 PM
One thing that Bio said kinda hit me as odd, but the more I thought about it, the more I think it might be the general mindset of most people.

He said "...the extra indy titles..."

Do most people consider indy titles an afterthought; something that is purchased only when the money doesn't get all spent on "regular" books? If one has been following an "Indy title" for some time and then, suddenly, one month the number of "regular" titles burns through that month/week's comic allowance does the person skip the Indy book, or has it achieved "regular" status because of it's quality (or whatever criteria is used to bump a book into "regular" status).

This isn't directed at Bio, just a general observation. Maybe I'm reading too much into four words, maybe not. But I AM curious now.

Thoughts?
Actually Mike, my response on that was geared more towards the mindset (that's especially prevalent on DW) that indy books need to be supported by merely buying them. What I mean is, good, bad, crap, outstanding, all are lumped into the same category. "Buy independent, support independents!" It's a "just spend your money to support them even if it's crap" mentality. That's what I was referring to.

I think the main reason indy is a bit of an "afterthought" actually comes down to retailers. They are too inconsistent with stocking indy titles, that it's pretty much a no-guarantee you'll even find a book. You can find the mainstream books easily, because retailers will stock them. But everything outside of that is a gamble for a retailer, and especially in this day and age, a lot of them can't afford to/aren't willing to take that risk. So you might get lucky and find a decent indy title after you've picked up all your Marvel and DC titles, but that doesn't mean the next issue is going to be there next month. Even the publisher has a large stake in it. You may have loved issues 1, 2 and 3 of "Atomic Monkey Love", and even had it special ordered at the comic shop, but if the publisher of Atomic Monkey Love can't make enough money to keep it going, well... tata...

Quality, commitment and consistency will "bump a book into regular status", IMO. The reader has to know he/she is going to get something they enjoy, every month, otherwise why get into it in the first place?

I'm all for supporting indies, but I think the "blind support" mentality has to go. Just because it's indy, doesn't mean it's inherently worth supporting.

Imboden
02-15-2007, 03:59 PM
I'm all for supporting indies, but I think the "blind support" mentality has to go. Just because it's indy, doesn't mean it's inherently worth supporting.

No, I totally agree there.
And you explained those four words well, thanks. I figured I was just reading into it but had to make sure, y'know?
Hell, I'll be right up front and say that *I* don't spend that much on non-Marvel/DC stuff. And the only factor in that is "it just doesn't catch my eye" or appeal to me in some fashion.

Now... Spandex. A right or a privilege?

Biofungus
02-15-2007, 04:02 PM
Now... Spandex. A right or a privilege?

Privilege, definitely. There are some asses that were just never meant to be squeezed into such material (comic book or real world). :har:

The Scribe
02-15-2007, 04:02 PM
One thing that Bio said kinda hit me as odd, but the more I thought about it, the more I think it might be the general mindset of most people.

He said "...the extra indy titles..."

Do most people consider indy titles an afterthought; something that is purchased only when the money doesn't get all spent on "regular" books?
Thoughts?

More than will admit it probably think this way.

I'm not sure is Image still considered an independent publisher?

I buy comics with the Image label on them. I wouldn't want to miss Savage Dragon. Also, Madman will be an Image comic soon. ;) :bounce:

I also buy Metadocs from Antarctic Press and TMNT from Mirage.

http://www.antarctic-press.com/html/version_01/store.php?id=Metadocs

I buy different comics most are mini-series from smaller companies. I can't remember them all. I look through every page of Previews. ;)

JamieRoberts
02-15-2007, 04:34 PM
One thing that Bio said kinda hit me as odd, but the more I thought about it, the more I think it might be the general mindset of most people.

He said "...the extra indy titles..."

Do most people consider indy titles an afterthought; something that is purchased only when the money doesn't get all spent on "regular" books? If one has been following an "Indy title" for some time and then, suddenly, one month the number of "regular" titles burns through that month/week's comic allowance does the person skip the Indy book, or has it achieved "regular" status because of it's quality (or whatever criteria is used to bump a book into "regular" status).

This isn't directed at Bio, just a general observation. Maybe I'm reading too much into four words, maybe not. But I AM curious now.

Thoughts?

I think it's fair to say that indy titles carry a lot more risk, as far as a lot of us are concerned. This is due to lack of mainstream coverage or trusted reviews, varying print quality and (often) high price points. I realise most indy titles are charging the bare minimum in order to keep the book (and the creators in some cases) alive, and that costs are generally the culprit of the last two points. So, with all that said, it's got to be hurting the indy titles that more coverage isn't prevalent.

Can anyone name a magazine/website that consistently features indy titles, reviewing them to a high standard monthly/weekly? How many readers/hits do these get? I'll bet they aren't common knowledge.

I stand by my pledge to drop mainstream titles and support creators from thee boards and others like them, but I accept they'll be hard to find and pot luck in quality. I'd love to be informed, but it's not easy to get educated.

Eliseu Gouveia
02-15-2007, 04:50 PM
More than will admit it probably think this way.

I'm not sure is Image still considered an independent publisher?

I buy comics with the Image label on them. I wouldn't want to miss Savage Dragon. Also, Madman will be an Image comic soon. ;) :bounce:

I also buy Metadocs from Antarctic Press and TMNT from Mirage.

http://www.antarctic-press.com/html/version_01/store.php?id=Metadocs

I buy different comics most are mini-series from smaller companies. I can't remember them all. I look through every page of Previews. ;)

Do you buy Infiniteens?

Eliseu Gouveia
02-15-2007, 05:31 PM
........... silence..........

The Scribe
02-15-2007, 11:13 PM
Do you buy Infiniteens?

I haven't seen it yet. There are a few other independents I want to see as well. I know my shop doesn't order many independents.

I will eventually order issue one to check it out.

Kep!
02-15-2007, 11:28 PM
Privilege, definitely. There are some asses that were just never meant to be squeezed into such material (comic book or real world). :har:
http://www.assmatrix.com/types/longshot.jpg

What, you're not turned on?

The Scribe
02-15-2007, 11:42 PM
So, I receive negative point by someone who didn't even comment in this post? :man:

I believe a few people need to give me positive points. ;) :whistlin:

Kep!
02-16-2007, 12:02 AM
So, I receive negative point by someone who didn't even comment in this post? :man:

I believe a few people need to give me positive points. ;) :whistlin:
Happened to all of us. He just went through and whacked willy-nilly.

Willy is pissed.

The Scribe
02-16-2007, 12:47 AM
Happened to all of us. He just went through and whacked willy-nilly.

Willy is pissed.

Well, someone who is upset could at least have the guts to comment.

Instead of just giving negative points because we made them cry. :p

Paul Sanderson
02-16-2007, 03:43 AM
One thing that Bio said kinda hit me as odd, but the more I thought about it, the more I think it might be the general mindset of most people.

He said "...the extra indy titles..."

Do most people consider indy titles an afterthought; something that is purchased only when the money doesn't get all spent on "regular" books? If one has been following an "Indy title" for some time and then, suddenly, one month the number of "regular" titles burns through that month/week's comic allowance does the person skip the Indy book, or has it achieved "regular" status because of it's quality (or whatever criteria is used to bump a book into "regular" status).

This isn't directed at Bio, just a general observation. Maybe I'm reading too much into four words, maybe not. But I AM curious now.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I'd say it is that way, Imby, or at least it is here. For example, the cons I've had tables in Artist's Alley here, I've noticed that readers/buyers come here last after they've already bought their regular titles. And by that stage, they either have very little money to spend on the indie stuff, or they have none at all, walking past the tables, smiling, sometimes saying nice things but not buying. I've seen that quite often.

Paul Sanderson
02-16-2007, 03:46 AM
But of course, you should buy (if you have the money to do so) what you think is good, whether that be a major title or an indie title. Buy what is good (for you), not what isn't.

hannu
02-16-2007, 07:32 AM
Well, someone who is upset could at least have the guts to comment.

Instead of just giving negative points because we made them cry. :p

Wasnīt pissed. I thought a person could give points at any occasion, posting or not. You can see who gave you those points, and Kep defintely "noticed". I gave you and Kep a negative and Musgrave a positive point.

I didnīt realize that reputation points were such a big deal. So, Scribe, itīs your turn to retaliate, Kep already did.

:nyah:

I donīt care about spandex, nor superheroes. I read them only haphazardly. But it would be interesting to see someone come up with a non-spandex design, but in peopleīs minds superhero equals spandex. There was this conseptual designer (donīt remember his name), who did an interesting revamp of x-men with more contemporary clothing, yet making them distinctive and recognisable. There was a thread about it here.

I think a lot of times the costume is way more important than whatīs inside it. Theyīre like running, jumping logos.

ps. To see my opinion on Liefeld, read Musgraveīs posts.

hannu
02-16-2007, 07:55 AM
[QUOTE=So, Scribe, itīs your turn to retaliate[/QUOTE]


Oh! You already did! Suppose weīre even, then?
:laugh:

ps. Liked the smilie!

Imboden
02-16-2007, 11:39 AM
http://www.assmatrix.com/types/longshot.jpg

What, you're not turned on?

What're you doing taking pictures like that of my wife for?!?

:man:

Kep!
02-16-2007, 12:01 PM
What're you doing taking pictures like that of my wife for?!?

:man:
I had to test out the new wide-angle lens somehow.

Kep!
02-16-2007, 12:04 PM
Wasnīt pissed. I thought a person could give points at any occasion, posting or not. You can see who gave you those points, and Kep defintely "noticed". I gave you and Kep a negative and Musgrave a positive point.

I didnīt realize that reputation points were such a big deal. So, Scribe, itīs your turn to retaliate, Kep already did.

:nyah:

I donīt care about spandex, nor superheroes. I read them only haphazardly. But it would be interesting to see someone come up with a non-spandex design, but in peopleīs minds superhero equals spandex. There was this conseptual designer (donīt remember his name), who did an interesting revamp of x-men with more contemporary clothing, yet making them distinctive and recognisable. There was a thread about it here.

I think a lot of times the costume is way more important than whatīs inside it. Theyīre like running, jumping logos.

ps. To see my opinion on Liefeld, read Musgraveīs posts.
Actually, I think the points are ludicrous (i can say that since I seem to have a ludicrous amount). However, if you have enough of a beef to dump negs, have enough of a take to post your thoughts. Or do people in Finland not disagree and still get along? Hell, Musgrave and I agree on squat, but we get along fine.

hannu
02-16-2007, 12:35 PM
post your thoughts

Lesson learned, will do. Iīve been way too passive anyway. :thumbs:

Kep!
02-16-2007, 02:39 PM
Lesson learned, will do. Iīve been way too passive anyway. :thumbs:
THAT'S the ticket! :D