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The Scribe
01-16-2007, 10:13 PM
With DC canceling titles lately, I believe it's time to bring back DC Presents as a sixty-four page monthly comic.

So, many characters, and so many stories to tell.

I'd like to see Blue Beetle, Metamorpho, and John Stewart for the first two issues.

Who would you like to see in this comic?

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=160148

Biofungus
01-16-2007, 10:18 PM
I'd love to see the Incredible Hulk take out Supes and half of DC's "strong men"...


*ducks*


:har:

The Scribe
01-16-2007, 10:26 PM
I'd love to see the Incredible Hulk take out Supes and half of DC's "strong men"...


*ducks*


:har:

That would be a horrible story for a DC book.

Despite the fact that Superman would beat the Hulk by himself. ;)

Moonrider
01-17-2007, 06:29 AM
Ya mean Blue Beetle is gonna get canned? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Freeman01
01-17-2007, 12:22 PM
Superman has alreadt beaten the HULK in Marvel vs DC #3

RandallFlagg
01-17-2007, 04:57 PM
Sure he has. Because it was nothing but a popularity contest. But, the Hulk beat Onslaught. Because the madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets. Onslaught couldn't attack his mind. But he would own Superman. Hulk wouldn't like getting smacked around, and would take Superman down.

Ian Ascher
01-17-2007, 05:05 PM
Id hardly call Firestorm being canceled along with Blue Beetle and the Atom next in line if sales don't get better a big implosion.

However, I wouldn't mind seeing a DC Presents type book that could showcase lesser characters along w/ the top tier guys. Since DC is bringing back Barve & the Bold, you never know if something like this could be around the corner.

Scott Story
01-17-2007, 05:18 PM
I don't know if it's a big implosion. We see waves of new books come out, and can usually predict waves of new books getting cancelled. Marvel's Tsunami line? Or that line with Machine Man, Deathlok, etc. With DC, I understand Hawkgirl, Manhunter, Blue Beatle, Atom, and others are cancelled. There are others, like Checkmate and Shadowpact that are not far behind. Most of the other questionable series they are putting out as miniseries (Omega Men, Uncle Sam, Omac, Martian Mahhunter, etc.)

Paul Sanderson
01-17-2007, 05:27 PM
Is it definite those titles are being cancelled? I remember predicting here on this board ages ago that both Blue Beetle and Firestorm wouldn't go the distance. I'm sad to hear about the Atom, but when you replace the great originals with inferior copies, that tends to happen.

kdmelrose
01-17-2007, 05:28 PM
Only Manhunter and Firestorm have been announced, per April solicitations.

Ian Ascher
01-17-2007, 05:30 PM
Read the info at the link Scribe posted in his post.

It says Firestorm is gone.
Blue Beetle and Atom are on thin ice.

kdmelrose
01-17-2007, 05:31 PM
I'm sad to hear about the Atom, but when you replace the great originals with inferior copies, that tends to happen.

What's "inferior" about them? There's a long DC history of "replacing" the supposedly great originals, dating back to the dawn of the Silver Age.

And it's not as if the previous Atom, who was hardly the "original," was burning up sales charts.

Paul Sanderson
01-17-2007, 05:37 PM
I have no problem in replacements, so long as they're good. These latest ones aren't IMO, and looks like readers didn't care for them either. The Ray Palmer Atom certainly lasted longer than this new guy, no matter what you say.

kdmelrose
01-17-2007, 05:42 PM
I have no problem in replacements, so long as they're good. These latest ones aren't IMO, and looks like readers didn't care for them either.

Yes, because quality equals high sales. Right.

:rolleyes:

The Ray Palmer Atom certainly lasted longer than this new guy, no matter what you say.

Just because the new title might be canceled -- nothing has been announced yet -- doesn't necessarily mean Ryan Choi won't continue as The Atom in the DC Universe.

Scott Story
01-17-2007, 06:00 PM
I think my source was LITG. That's where Hawkgirl got added to the mix.

I don't read any of those titles, but it's a shame about Blue Beatle, because I heard it was enjoyed by younger readers.

DC is pretty forgiving of low sales figures, and will let a book finish when it's cancelled often. I think even books like Catwoman are in the 20K range, and it's not slated for cancellation that I know of. (I haven't checked CW's current sales, because I don't have immidiate access to them--my info is a little old here.)

Books like Nightwing, Robin, and BOP--How do they rank? Now I'm curious. Who knows a good place online to look into this?

Toyandgadgetguy
01-17-2007, 06:03 PM
Heh... how many times have titles for 'good' characters been cancelled?

Hasn't the JLA been cancelled before?
The Brave and the Bold?
Flash?

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

There are a number of factors that help to determine why a book is cancelled. Sometimes it's much more than what you see on the surface.

Paul Sanderson
01-17-2007, 06:08 PM
I agree, but oftentimes it's because the book didn't sell, and I think that's the case in this latest situation.

kdmelrose
01-17-2007, 06:08 PM
I think my source was LITG. That's where Hawkgirl got added to the mix.

I don't read any of those titles, but it's a shame about Blue Beatle, because I heard it was enjoyed by younger readers.

DC is pretty forgiving of low sales figures, and will let a book finish when it's cancelled often. I think even books like Catwoman are in the 20K range, and it's not slated for cancellation that I know of. (I haven't checked CW's current sales, because I don't have immidiate access to them--my info is a little old here.)

Books like Nightwing, Robin, and BOP--How do they rank? Now I'm curious. Who knows a good place online to look into this?


Yeah, Hawkgirl was mentioned by Rich Johnston this week. It wouldn't be a surprise, as it sold an estimated 18,141 copies in December.

Blue Beetle was at 21,358, and All New Atom at 22,852, which I presume is where the CBR thread came up with "on thin ice." DC just released a trade collection for the former and solicited one for the latter, which I take as good signs.

Catwoman sold an estimated 22,305 copies in December; Robin, 30,556; Nightwing, 34,889; and Birds of Prey, 29,825.

Paul Sanderson
01-17-2007, 06:09 PM
There are probably too many characters with their own titles that never should have gotten their own ongoing titles in the first place. There needs to be a cull of some of those titles IMO.

Scott Story
01-17-2007, 08:26 PM
I have to agree. Some of these characters make great members of team books, but don't carry books themselves. For example, I like Cyborg and Black Canary, but I'm not looking forward to their ongoing titles coming up.

The Scribe
01-17-2007, 10:50 PM
I don't read any of those titles, but it's a shame about Blue Beatle, because I heard it was enjoyed by younger readers.


I'd like to see Blue Beetle continue. Especially if it's bringing in new and younger readers.

I like it more than I thought I would. ;)

Paul Sanderson
01-18-2007, 01:38 AM
I have to agree. Some of these characters make great members of team books, but don't carry books themselves. For example, I like Cyborg and Black Canary, but I'm not looking forward to their ongoing titles coming up.

Yeah, I agree. Not every character, even good characters, lend themselves to their own title. They just don't. Mini-series', one shots, yes, but ongoings, no. Cutting some of these titles would weed out some of the lesser creators and allow the better guys to work on the better characters.

Moonrider
01-18-2007, 02:10 AM
But what goes into the category of 'better characters'? I mean Superman survived generations but before Infinite Crisis I just thought his character is dull. And wasn't it everybody who said 'there are no bad characters, only bad writers'?

Paul Sanderson
01-18-2007, 02:27 AM
That's true, but despite your personal opinion of Superman, he's one of the greatest characters every created, and a jewel in the crown for DC/WB, so naturally a character like that deserves the best you can give him. Same goes for Batman, Wonder Woman, JLA and all the top-tier titles/characters. Put the best on the best, that's only natural.

Moonrider
01-18-2007, 03:59 AM
...(Superman) is one of the greatest characters every created, and a jewel in the crown for DC/WB, so naturally a character like that deserves the best you can give him. Same goes for Batman, Wonder Woman, JLA and all the top-tier titles/characters. Put the best on the best, that's only natural.

So does that mean there exist this caste system in DC characters that prevent 'second' and 'third tier' characters turn into 'top tier' characters because they just don't deserve to be treated better? If so, I see no reason for a 'DC Comics Presents' for lesser characters that doesn't sell in their own titles because heck, the just don't deserve it. :yawn:

Buckyrig
01-18-2007, 12:40 PM
I seem to remember them bringing back Showcase (or maybe under another title like DC Presents) in the 90s, but with one character having the title for a year at a time. I think Supergirl was one of them. This isn't a bad idea, though maybe not for a year per character necessarily.

fluxchild
01-18-2007, 12:45 PM
If they actually had a year long storyline it could work good. 12 issues of mindless drivel would make anyone hate a character...no matter who it was.

I think Cyborg could carry an ongoing, black canary would with the help of awesome team ups, and not just GL or GA either. She's a character that I like but don't like to admit I like her...kinda like how I like some of JayZ's music, but on the whole I can't stand him....

fluxchild
01-18-2007, 12:56 PM
So does that mean there exist this caste system in DC characters that prevent 'second' and 'third tier' characters turn into 'top tier' characters because they just don't deserve to be treated better? If so, I see no reason for a 'DC Comics Presents' for lesser characters that doesn't sell in their own titles because heck, the just don't deserve it. :yawn:


I don't think that's what he's saying. The Top tier characters are always gonna sell better because they're popular with the mainstream. That's why you get team ups like Swamp Thing and Batman or Plastic Man and Superman. I very rarely would even pick those issues up tho....because of the second tier character....although I must say that I did pick up Batman Swamp Thing, and liked it. But that's one in a million. Who wants to see Plastic Man irritate Superman an entire issue as they try and get Mxylplk to say his name backwards? Not I.
If DC comics presents were used the way it should be, I guarantee that it would be successful. Take fledgling characters or "second-tier" characters along with new writers, and throw in a 4-6 issue story arc, and you'd have very good charcter driven work done by writers and artist trying to stay in the biz or become the next buzz.
It's weird, but I loved any episode of the Superfriends that had Myxplk in it. I loved the Plastic Man cartoon, but put those two together in a Superman comic, and I'm running for the hills warp 10.

Buckyrig
01-18-2007, 01:04 PM
Pick this up if you don't have it. Great read.

http://www.zianet.com/comic-booksuperstore/collected/superman-madman.jpg

Paul Sanderson
01-18-2007, 08:47 PM
No, what I'm saying is that not every character in a company's lineup necessarilly deserves their own ongoing series. The sales just won't be there for all of 'em. The best characters get the best treatment, that's only natural, and when you ever want to try and give more attention to a lesser character, then there's always one-shots, mini-series', or series' like Showcase, DC Presents, Brave & the Bold, things like that, or team books like JLA, JSA, Outsiders, Teen Titans etc. There's plenty of other avenues for those characters to get their time in the sun besides giving them an ongoing series.

Scott Story
01-18-2007, 09:15 PM
No, what I'm saying is that not every character in a company's lineup necessarilly deserves their own ongoing series. The sales just won't be there for all of 'em. The best characters get the best treatment, that's only natural, and when you ever want to try and give more attention to a lesser character, then there's always one-shots, mini-series', or series' like Showcase, DC Presents, Brave & the Bold, things like that, or team books like JLA, JSA, Outsiders, Teen Titans etc. There's plenty of other avenues for those characters to get their time in the sun besides giving them an ongoing series.

I'm in complete agreement. A lot of ongoings are just not going to make it, because not all characters have the the same "legs."

I do agree that there are no bad characters, just bad writers. But, that is not to say that any character can carry an ongoing.

52 is a good example of a book where B and C list characters can really shine. It's done well. It's got a few A listers like Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, and Lex Luthor, but mostly it's Black Adam, Renee Montoya, Question, Ralph Dibney, etc. It's usually the first book I read every week.

Paul Sanderson
01-18-2007, 09:22 PM
Yep, that's another good example there, Scott.

And while I agree too with the sentiment there are no bad characters, only bad writers, there are some characters that no matter how well written they may be, still won't be able to sustain an ongoing series, for the reason Scott states - they just don't have the legs to make it. Just one of those things.

And with the "no bad characters, only bad writers" sentiment in mind, wouldn't that have applied to the Ron Raymond Firestorm? Or the Ray Palmer Atom? I'm not necessarilly dissing their replacement characters, but are the new guys really outstandingly better than their predecessors? In those two instances, I personally don't think they are. Speaking for myself, I would have been more interested in series' (mini or ongoing) with Ron Raymond/Ray Palmer than their replacements, at least if they both had had top creators on both books. But that's just me. I do think, however, that both the Jason Rusch Firestorm and (whatever the new Atom's name is) Atom should have been given one-shots or mini-series' first, or add them to a team book or something, before diving head-first into their own ongoing. I don't think that was the right way to go from the outset.

Scott Story
01-18-2007, 11:23 PM
Robin had three miniseries before they committed to an ongoing, Catwoman a miniseries and a oneshot, Nightwing a miniseries, Birds of Prey two or three miniseries. They got the chance to proove themselves before they went ongoing. (Come to think of it, most of these also had Chuck Dixon.) That's the way to do it.

The Sinister Six, with Catman and Deadshot et al? If Simone wrote it, I would definitely read an ongoing. She has established this group beautifully. I'm sure not everyone agrees with me on this group, but that's cool. I think villains and fallen heroes make for interesting characters.

Paul Sanderson
01-19-2007, 12:50 AM
Robin had three miniseries before they committed to an ongoing, Catwoman a miniseries and a oneshot, Nightwing a miniseries, Birds of Prey two or three miniseries. They got the chance to proove themselves before they went ongoing. (Come to think of it, most of these also had Chuck Dixon.) That's the way to do it.

Exactly, I'm in complete agreement. Start off with those, get the characters established, get readers familiar with them, and then, if sales warrant, then give them their own ongoing. That really is the way to do it, and would go a long way to guaranteeing (or at least helping) the success of said ongoing. Even if Robin, Nightwing, Catwoman or whatever get canned in the near future, you can't argue with the success of those series' over several years. That approach wasn't done for any of these new guys (eg. the new Blue Beetle, Firestorm and Atom). If those series' are cancelled (and are they actually?), that will be one of the big reasons why.

Scott Story
01-19-2007, 10:27 AM
That's true, in that if any are cancelled, a comic that runs more than 100 consecutive issues has to be called a success.

Paul Sanderson
01-19-2007, 04:40 PM
Agreed.

Moonrider
01-19-2007, 11:17 PM
I agree about Firestorm and The Atom, but I would still feel bad if Blue Beetle is cancelled this early. It has great potential, it debuted in one of the most celebrated comic event of this century, it's written by a top creator and drawn by one of the most talented artist in the business, and if the character change served as a means to gain younger and newer readers then it accomplished just that.
The same goes for Marvel's Nextwave, but at least we know there will be future issues even though it won't be an ongoing series anymore.

Paul Sanderson
01-20-2007, 12:58 AM
Celebrated comic event of this century? Even though this century is only in its beginnings, I would still tend to consider that a vastly overstated statement. Still, I think Blue Beetle's intro could have been more guarded. they could have built up awareness and likeability of the character better, rather than just almost immediately tossing him into his own ongoing practically straight away, tossing him into the deep end as it were. I think the series would have had a better chance had they been more careful from the outset.

Moonrider
01-20-2007, 02:47 AM
It was an exaggeration, pretty much the same as saying Superman as one of the greatest character ever created.

Paul Sanderson
01-20-2007, 03:29 PM
Except that one isn't an exageration.