Onslaught Reborn Liefeld/Loeb/Scholarship fund!

[Mikeg]

Just wanted to remind everone that Onslaught Reborn is coming up soon from Marvel. This Books Profits will be directly benefiting the Sam Loeb Scholarship Fund. So get extra copies and pass em out. Or you can email the fund at samloeb2@aol.com to find out how to donate directly to the fund.

There will be variant covers for this series by Joe Mad, Mike Turner, Ed Mcguiness and J.scott campbell, and one mystery artist rumored to have the initials J.L for the 5th issue.

Heres a preview of Liefelds art for the series

http://www.photodump.com/direct/mikeg/40183_4-T.jpg (http://www.photodump.com/viewer/mikeg/40183_4.html)

Its looking like a fun great series, I hope everyone checks it out.

For more sneak peeks and news, go to www.ROBLIEFELD.net

[Justice41]

Boy did you pick the wrong site to spam. Bwhahahahahahahahahaha!

[Angel]

"Photodump" ....how appropriate.

[The-Spirit]

Wow Rob Liefield! He's something else.

[Mikeg]

Boy did you pick the wrong site to spam. Bwhahahahahahahahahaha!

why do you say that? and no Im not a spammer, This is comics board, Im talking about a comic, not just any comic, its for a charity. So I think that its appropriate.

[The-Spirit]

It's about Liefield.

He has an effect on people here.

[Justice41]

You have three posts and one is to respond to me, you are advertising a comic. I'd say you are a spammer. Most people here hate Liefeld, I don't , that's why I laughed that mischievous laugh because I know what will happen soon to this thread. By the way, that artwork is horrible.

[Mark Poulton]

Yeah, this book looks great. Outside of Skottie Young's Human Torch series, I never dug the FF, but Rob makes them look cool. I didn't hear about the mystery variant by J.L. That's pretty damn cool!

[BearClaw]

I'm looking forward to this book. When does it come out?

[FIG]

The book does look cool, I'm in.

[Jon Malin]

I think the preview page rocks. Very much looking forward to the book of course.

-Jon

[Raven]

Even if the proceeds from this book went into my own pocket, I would not buy it.

I just absolutely hated Heroes Reborn.

[dpendleton]

I gotta say the art does not look bad at all.

[Press Oblivion]

I'm looking forward to it too.

I'm a big Liefeld fan and always look for something new to come out from this dude.

Marvel just wants to revisit and honor an era in their history. I don't recall any negative response for the Age of Apocalypse, isn't this in the same vain?

Check out the vidoe logs on Youtube for some of the background on the Liefeld process, it's cool.

[Mr.Musgrave]

I don't recall any negative response for the Age of Apocalypse, isn't this in the same vain?


AoA wasn't a massive sales failure and they didn't have to replace the creative teams due to low sales unlike Heroes Reborn.

[Nitecrawlah2]

Was it just due to low sales? If I recall, there were some looooooooonnngg waits between issues as well.

[Mr.Musgrave]

That too. The thing was a giant flop.

[Press Oblivion]

Was it just due to low sales? If I recall, there were some looooooooonnngg waits between issues as well.

AoA wasn't a massive sales failure and they didn't have to replace the creative teams due to low sales unlike Heroes Reborn.
We can go on about the past but why? It's done. Why not leave it in the past and try to give something like this a chance and a fresh perspective.

If you don't like Rob's art, that's one thing. If you didn't like Heroes Reborn, that's another thing. If you were upset about the printing/shipping schedule of a comic that came out 10 years ago, that is yet another matter all together. . . . and all of those points are valid reasons for not wanting to get this new series because you experienced something unfavorable in the past, but they're just comic books and they're just comic book creators. I don't understand the seething disdain for Rob Liefeld and you're probably going to miss something good because you've judged the product before it's even been released.

Yeah . . . I'm well aware of Rob's reputation but it's been 10 years. His work does appeal to people so why can't we just leave everyone to their tastes and likes, bury the past and give the guy a break?

[Mr.Musgrave]

You asked a question...

I don't recall any negative response for the Age of Apocalypse, isn't this in the same vain?

you got an answer. It ain't our fault you have an issue with the truth.

[Press Oblivion]

That's pretty snide! Where is the attitude coming from Steve? Did I say something that offended you?

It sounds like you want to start a fight over this?

I'm aware of the truth and varied opinions on Liefeld's work I don't understand why people. . . . comic fans . . . can't let matters, of 10 years ago, go.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Look, you asked why people look back fondly on Age of Apocalypse and not on Heroes Reborn and it's because HR was a huge flaming failure and AoA wasn't. That has nothing to do with personal opinions on Liefeld's work or not letting things go. The thing was a friggin' sales flop that left Marvel with a big fat black eye. THAT is why people don't have fond memories of it. Jesus Christ! If you don't want an answer don't ask the friggin' question!

[JamieRoberts]

In a way, Heroes Reborn did Marvel some good, because when the books were safely back in Marvel's hands afterwards, we all appreciated just how much we'd taken them for granted. I think.

[Press Oblivion]

Look, you asked why people look back fondly on Age of Apocalypse and not on Heroes Reborn and it's because HR was a huge flaming failure and AoA wasn't.
Point made and understood. I'm not challenging this. . . .

That has nothing to do with personal opinions on Liefeld's work or not letting things go.
I see. I was trying to point out that Marvel is using the same theme for HR as they did with AoA and that's simply revisiting an old idea. It was Marvel's idea to do this. They see potential in the title and a market for the product. I apologize for not making that clear in my first post. . . .
The thing was a friggin' sales flop that left Marvel with a big fat black eye. THAT is why people don't have fond memories of it.
Jesus Christ! If you don't want an answer don't ask the friggin' question!
Why are you getting all bent out of shape dude. You're acting like I attacked you. I don't see how addressing me like a child is making your argument any clearer.

I'm asking a new question now and that question is why can't people leave that in the past and try to look at this venture with a new perspective.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Why would people look forward to a project based of off one of the biggest flops in Marvel history?

[Biofungus]

I think it's a fairly simple question to answer:

People felt burned by Heroes Reborn. They have no intention of spending the money again (and it's more now than it was per issue back then) only to potentially get burned again.

[Justice41]

If you guys had watched the YouTube vids of Rob you'd know that they are tying this into Civil War.I don't hate Rob or his art but it lacks way too much for me to get excited about. After watching him Draw on is lap in the video I think I now know why Rob does horrible backgrounds. Very hard to draw BG's on your lap. I wish Rob would just add some black spots to his pages, man they look barren.

[Mikeg]

If you guys had watched the YouTube vids of Rob you'd know that they are tying this into Civil War.I don't hate Rob or his art but it lacks way too much for me to get excited about. After watching him Draw on is lap in the video I think I now know why Rob does horrible backgrounds. Very hard to draw BG's on your lap. I wish Rob would just add some black spots to his pages, man they look barren.

That civil war youtube spot was just a joke, rob made that mock up copy up.

As far as the original HR being a flop. It wasnt, there was alot of political stuff going on within marvel back then that ruined the project in the later stages. Essentially Rob and Jim's first six books were huge successes financially, marvel had financial problems and was in the middle of restructuring the company, so new guys came in and attempted to Re-negotiate Robs and Jims contract to a much smaller figure. Rob Decided to leave the project as he would not be able to pay his inker/colorist/scripter the amount he had promised them, so he left and Jim lee picked up all four books at the smaller paycheck, he dropped off penciling duties, and put other guys on all the books. That is when the books did bad. No one cared about the project anymore. It was no ones fault but Marvel.

By the way, this isnt me just thinking what might have happened, this is knowlede gained from recent interviews with Rob Liefeld and Jeph Loeb. Information that was printed in this past months Marvel Spotlight. So if marvel is willing to print the info, Im sure that it actually what went down. Now that the company is in different hands, I think that HR is looked at as a potentially massive success that went wrong do to poor managment in the marvel offices. Thats how Jeph Loeb see's it too. Jeph Loeb had the oppurtunity to stay on the cap and avengers book, but chose to leave as well because he wanted to continue working with Rob. He stayed on doing some scripting for Iron man, because of a previous deal with scott lobdell.

[The-Spirit]

You asked a question...
you got an answer. It ain't our fault you have an issue with the truth.
http://www.destinationhollywood.com/celebrities/jacknicholson/images/jacknicholson_fewgoodmen_04.jpg
You want the truth?
http://www.picturehouses.org.uk/static/atchs/Content/nt/nt6ir.jpeg
I think I'm entitled.
http://www.cracked.com/jp/quotestruth.jpg
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

[Biofungus]

You're right, Mikeg, but missing a key point:

The company thinks it was a potentially massive success that went wrong due to poor management. That's why they're delving into the mythos again.

However, the reception by many fans has shown that it WASN'T poor management that screwed HR, and people are not willing to get burned again.

I think what's really dividing fans about this is Marvel is banking a LOT on Liefeld for this book (I'm talking popularity, not just actual production). Liefeld has caused probably a more solid dividing line amongst fans than anybody in this industry ever has. You either love him or hate him. If there even is a middle ground, it's so small that no side bothers to try to cater to it (ala politics).

Also, Re: Justice
I agree. It seems rather than spot some decent blacks, he fills the empty space with "gobbledeegook" which makes it look worse.

[Mwynn]

gobbledeegook (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gobbledeegook)

[Press Oblivion]

Why would people look forward to a project based of off one of the biggest flops in Marvel history?
The answer is no. People wouldn't look forward to a project like that. I guess that my fan status of Rob's work allows me to look past some of the elements that others find disagreeable because I enjoyed that material.

If you guys had watched the YouTube vids of Rob you'd know that they are tying this into Civil War.I don't hate Rob or his art but it lacks way too much for me to get excited about. After watching him Draw on is lap in the video I think I now know why Rob does horrible backgrounds. Very hard to draw BG's on your lap. I wish Rob would just add some black spots to his pages, man they look barren.
There's something about Rob's work that brings me back to my early days of collecting comics. All the founders of image had an effect on my drawing during that time. When I see any of their names on something I just have to see it and hold. The Nostalgia that settles in is so greatt. Comics have really changed since that era and to look at Rob's work brings back a lot of grea memories . . . . so yeah I'm excited about this one and I hope that it does well.

I liked watching videos as it's a chance to look at the process of an illustrator. I think that some of his methods are a little cumbersome but if it works for him, more power to him.
That civil war youtube spot was just a joke, rob made that mock up copy up.

As far as the original HR being a flop. It wasnt, there was alot of political stuff going on within marvel back then that ruined the project in the later stages. Essentially Rob and Jim's first six books were huge successes financially, marvel had financial problems and was in the middle of restructuring the company, so new guys came in and attempted to Re-negotiate Robs and Jims contract to a much smaller figure. Rob Decided to leave the project as he would not be able to pay his inker/colorist/scripter the amount he had promised them, so he left and Jim lee picked up all four books at the smaller paycheck, he dropped off penciling duties, and put other guys on all the books. That is when the books did bad. No one cared about the project anymore. It was no ones fault but Marvel.

By the way, this isnt me just thinking what might have happened, this is knowlede gained from recent interviews with Rob Liefeld and Jeph Loeb. Information that was printed in this past months Marvel Spotlight. So if marvel is willing to print the info, Im sure that it actually what went down. Now that the company is in different hands, I think that HR is looked at as a potentially massive success that went wrong do to poor managment in the marvel offices. Thats how Jeph Loeb see's it too. Jeph Loeb had the oppurtunity to stay on the cap and avengers book, but chose to leave as well because he wanted to continue working with Rob. He stayed on doing some scripting for Iron man, because of a previous deal with scott lobdell.
I didn't know any of this. It's very interesting to know what went on behind the scenes.

You're right, Mikeg, but missing a key point:

The company thinks it was a potentially massive success that went wrong due to poor management. That's why they're delving into the mythos again.

However, the reception by many fans has shown that it WASN'T poor management that screwed HR, and people are not willing to get burned again.

I think what's really dividing fans about this is Marvel is banking a LOT on Liefeld for this book (I'm talking popularity, not just actual production). Liefeld has caused probably a more solid dividing line amongst fans than anybody in this industry ever has. You either love him or hate him. If there even is a middle ground, it's so small that no side bothers to try to cater to it (ala politics).
So if Jim Lee was on this, it would be meeting with a more favorable response? Perhaps you're right, just the name of Liefeld sparks controversey where ever it's murmered.

[Press Oblivion]

http://www.destinationhollywood.com/celebrities/jacknicholson/images/jacknicholson_fewgoodmen_04.jpg
You want the truth?
http://www.picturehouses.org.uk/static/atchs/Content/nt/nt6ir.jpeg
I think I'm entitled.
http://www.cracked.com/jp/quotestruth.jpg
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
http://pressoblivion.net/Forums/Smileys/default/21.gif

[Justice41]

I liked the books that Lee's company put out and bought the Liefeld Cap books Wasn't interested in any of his Extreme guys stuff. Portacio's Hulk and New design on Ironman were the tits. I lost interest in the books quickly because everything looked rushed. They tried to cram way too much story into too few books. FF went from the accident to Namor in two or three issues. Didn't care much for the takes on the personalities of Banner, Doom or Stark. Cap was a wreck. So no anything that spawns from those books is a miss for me. In Fact it was this move that soured me on Jim Lee. After all the shit talking they ran back to their masters for money. Then Lee completely sold out and I haven't bought anything of his since.

[protonik]

Was it just due to low sales? If I recall, there were some looooooooonnngg waits between issues as well.

Heroes Reborn hit ALL of its shipping dates.

[protonik]

Steve, why do you have to be so aggressive everytime someone mentions Liefeld or hell, ANY POSTS for that matter? The guy asked a question and you took personal offense to it and attacked him. That ain't cool man.

[protonik]

I liked the books that Lee's company put out and bought the Liefeld Cap books Wasn't interested in any of his Extreme guys stuff. Portacio's Hulk and New design on Ironman were the tits. I lost interest in the books quickly because everything looked rushed. They tried to cram way too much story into too few books. FF went from the accident to Namor in two or three issues. Didn't care much for the takes on the personalities of Banner, Doom or Stark. Cap was a wreck. So no anything that spawns from those books is a miss for me. In Fact it was this move that soured me on Jim Lee. After all the shit talking they ran back to their masters for money. Then Lee completely sold out and I haven't bought anything of his since.

Actually, to be fair Jim and Rob didn't talk smack about Marvel. MOST of the Image guys wanted to continue to do their work for Marvel and do their Image books as side projects, not full fledge universes as they wound up doing. Just an outlet for their ideas but when they all met with Marvel Management, McFarlane made it into this "us or them" kind of thing and started the whole smack talking back and forth. I don't recall Rob, JIm, Jimmy V, or the rest really doing a lot of smack talking except that they were all essentially fired over it. I think Valentino is the one who lost the most in that deal because he was firing on all cylinders on Guardians of the Galaxy and Shadowhawk and his other stuff never really lived up to the promise that his Guardians stuff was delivering. Larsen may have said a few things about Marvel but not anything inflammatory and the only one who HASN'T gone back to Marvel is Toddy Mac.

[Justice41]

The shit talking was not about Marvel it was about them and their ego's and how they were going to do this and that. Yet now everytime Marvel or DC calls, Silvestri, Larsen, Liefeld, Lee and Portacio go running back for that easy cash. Toddy Mac is the man. I don't care if he never draws again, he stuck to his guns, kept his prices down, produced nice stuff and made great toys.
Jim Lee is non entity to me except for his old stuff before running back tail tucked to Marvel then selling out to DC.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Steve, why do you have to be so aggressive everytime someone mentions Liefeld or hell, ANY POSTS for that matter? The guy asked a question and you took personal offense to it and attacked him. That ain't cool man.


He asked a question and I gave him an answer. Then he starts going after me claiming that I can't let things go and that I'm just hating on Liefeld when all I did was give him an unbiased answer. I never said Liefeld sucks, I told him the truth about Heroes Reborn. Then he flips shit on me. How could I not take offence to that?

[Phatman]

Steve, why do you have to be so aggressive everytime someone mentions Liefeld or hell, ANY POSTS for that matter? The guy asked a question and you took personal offense to it and attacked him. That ain't cool man.

The real question is why do you come into every thread that even vaguely mentions Liefeld to defend him? We get that you love the guy and his work. That's fine, but your fanboy-rose colored glasses taint every statement you make about him or his art. Musgrave is right about HR being a failure-let it go.

You don't have to come in here on the white horse every time somebody mentions your idol to defend him. I hope the book does well for the scholarship fund, but Marvel and the charity would be better served trying a new concept than rehashing this failure.

[j giar]

I just want to say three things......

1.He asked a question and I gave him an answer. Then he starts going after me claiming that I can't let things go and that I'm just hating on Liefeld when all I did was give him an unbiased answer. I never said Liefeld sucks, I told him the truth about Heroes Reborn. Then he flips shit on me. How could I not take offence to that?
Can't we all just get along??!??
2.
Also, Re: Justice
I agree. It seems rather than spot some decent blacks, he fills the empty space with "gobbledeegook" which makes it look worse.
I just bought some of this at my local art supply center....Shit's expensive!
3. Why is it everytime I come back on here there's another Liefeld thread??
Christ it's like the dreaded Hordes of Hydra! Cut one off and two more grow back in it's place.
I'm leaving now....off to redefine the comics medium! :nyah:

[Mikeg]

You're right, Mikeg, but missing a key point:

The company thinks it was a potentially massive success that went wrong due to poor management. That's why they're delving into the mythos again.

However, the reception by many fans has shown that it WASN'T poor management that screwed HR, and people are not willing to get burned again.

I think what's really dividing fans about this is Marvel is banking a LOT on Liefeld for this book (I'm talking popularity, not just actual production). Liefeld has caused probably a more solid dividing line amongst fans than anybody in this industry ever has. You either love him or hate him. If there even is a middle ground, it's so small that no side bothers to try to cater to it (ala politics).

Also, Re: Justice
I agree. It seems rather than spot some decent blacks, he fills the empty space with "gobbledeegook" which makes it look worse.

Well, actually this is the most positive response to a liefeld book Ive seen in a LONG time. Ive been following his work since new mutants and since the internet hit, this is the most positive reaction that I have seen yet to his work. In all honesty, I think there is so much more going for this book though.

1. Its for the Sam Loeb Scholarship Fund

2. Its written By Jeph Loeb and its his first marvel project since leaving DC

3. Variant covers by Joe Mad, Mike Turner, EMC, J.SCott Campbell and a mystery artist for the 5th variant, Possibly Jim Lee.

4. Nostalgia, for alot of people that Ive talked to outside of the internet, Heroes reborn was the first time alot of people actually picked up any of the marvel universe books, captain america, avengers, iron man, FF. I know it got me hooked on those characters, because I came from the Image generation of fans. Now I collect new and old stuff about those characters, it helped me and legions of Image comics fans connect with those characters.

5. Jeph Loeb has said that there will be lasting repercussions to this series. I have a feeling that the female bucky is going to make it back over to the 616 universe.

Just my opinions.

[zpro1]

Its funny how some complete losers, that being anyone here who has more than a 1000 posts on some dorky comic book site, talks smack against the best artists that ever drew comicbooks. :laugh: Keep writing more of these goofy all knowing posts and see where it takes ya....... heck in your minds if you shout and bitch loud enuff the editors of the big 2 companies might actually employ you because of writing such insightfull knowledge :yawn:
zpro1
ps Rob Liefeld is the ultimate antichrist of comics nuff said 666

[Mr.Musgrave]

Thank you, troll. That was very intelligent. We'll see if we can't find you a doggie treat. Now sit, roll over, and play dead.

[Nitecrawlah2]

Heroes Reborn hit ALL of its shipping dates.
On all of its titles? I recall some issues with Captain America and Iron Man. Although perhaps with the waits we have now between issues it's probably nothing to bat a lash about.

[Mikeg]

On all of its titles? I recall some issues with Captain America and Iron Man. Although perhaps with the waits we have now between issues it's probably nothing to bat a lash about.

hmm, I dont specifically remember any delays at all in any of the books, but maybe there was between the Liefeld books and when lee took over, but I even doubt that. I stopped collecting all the books once Liefeld left the project. I loved the Jim Lee books, but he stopped penciling the FF anyways. Brett booth took over, and I love his art too, but once Liefeld was gone the whole project didnt seem appealing anymore, it had been soured. I would love to see Rob get on an ongoing at marvel again. Something completely brand new.

[Mikeg]

CHECK IT OUT!


http://robliefeld.net/ons2nov.htm


Rob Posted a bunch of new sneak peeks for onslaught reborn over at his website in full color! Man they looks great, I cant wait to see this story hits the stands, its gonna be epic. And I LOVE how onlaught looks so savage!

what do you guys think?:)

[ponyrl]

Question.

Doe prof X still exist in the new marvel universe for Onslaught to exist?

[Mikeg]

I think franklin creates this new Onslaught with his powers somehow, or releases him as a new seperate character. It looks like this series is going to establish onslaught as a more permanent threat to the marvel U.

[ponyrl]

Ah, then I can stick this one in with the GR series where little pieces of satan are flung across the marvel universe and GR has to hunt then down.

(lord *shakes head*)

[Terry]

New here!

Great looking pages! Can't wait!

And it's a very common "untruth" that the original HR had low sales. No it didn't. They all sold huge. There were also no late books from Rob's side of the house. Marvel wanted to renegotiate his & Jim Lee's contracts to pay them less money, as Marvel had a new regime take over. Jim chose to take the new contract, which paid him around half of what he was originally getting, and also gave him less control. Rob opted to leave and not take that deal.

It's that simple.

[Mr.Musgrave]

So simple it's wrong. Liefeld was kicked off of Captain America after six issues because of late books and poor sales. I worked in a comic store at the time. The books were late. Did they sell better than the titles had priviously? Yeah. That was also the year Marvel went bankrupt and their sales tanked hard as a whole.

Put the two together and figure out if the sales were actually that good. It ain't that hard.

[Terry]

So simple it's wrong. Liefeld was kicked off of Captain America after six issues because of late books and poor sales. I worked in a comic store at the time. The books were late. Did they sell better than the titles had priviously? Yeah. That was also the year Marvel went bankrupt and their sales tanked hard as a whole.

Put the two together and figure out if the sales were actually that good. It ain't that hard.

Funny how every "expert" on the internet worked at a comic store, isn't it?

The books all shipped on time. The books sold like hotcakes. I guess you could say he was "kicked off", but only because he wouldn't renegotiate.

[Terry]

Here's the sales figure for the failures:


September '96
3 Avengers (Vol. 2) 1 $2.95 Marvel 276,700
4 Captain America (Vol. 2) 1 $2.95 Marvel 274,100

October '96
11 Captain America (Vol. 2) 2 $1.95 Marvel 131,900
12 Avengers (Vol. 2) 2 $1.95 Marvel 131,000

November '96
11 Avengers (Vol. 2) 3 $1.95 Marvel 125,200
12 Captain America (Vol. 2) 3 $1.95 Marvel 124,600

December '96
11 Avengers 4 $1.95 Marvel 118,600
12 X-Man 24 $1.95 Marvel 117,800

January '97
10 Avengers 5 $1.95 Marvel 113,900
11 Captain America 5 $1.95 Marvel 112,400

February '97
8 Avengers 6 $1.95 Marvel 120,200
9 Captain America 6 $1.95 Marvel 116,600

[Mr.Musgrave]

New Dimensions Comics in Cranberry, Pa. You can make up whatever fanboy nonsense you want but the numbers, unlike Liefeld, do not lie. I suppose you believe that Liefeld left Image of his own accord too. :rolleyes:


Edit:

#1 Care to site sources for those numbers?

#2 Those numbers are lower than comic sales figures now and they are much lower now than they were in the 90's. And if you'll notice, they drop every month. Thanks for proving my point.

[Justice41]

Source those figures.

[Terry]

New Dimensions Comics in Cranberry, Pa. You can make up whatever fanboy nonsense you want but the numbers, unlike Liefeld, do not lie. I suppose you believe that Liefeld left Image of his own accord too. :rolleyes:


Edit:

#1 Care to site sources for those numbers?

#2 Those numbers are lower than comic sales figures now and they are much lower now than they were in the 90's. Thanks for proving my point.

CBG is the source.

And look at the rankings. After Lee's studio took over they stayed around the same for a couple of months, and then went down even further.

So 276,000 is lower than now?

Here's September's top 10

1 Civil War 4 $2.99 Marvel 272,500
2 Justice League of America 2 $2.99 DC 143,400
3 Astonishing X-Men 17 $2.99 Marvel 124,000
4 Amazing Spider-Man 535 CW $2.99 Marvel 117,000
5 Ultimate Spider-Man 100 $3.99 Marvel 116,200
6 52 18 $2.50 DC 111,800
7 52 19 $2.50 DC 111,600
8 52 20 $2.50 DC 111,100
9 52 21 $2.50 DC 110,300
10 Wolverine 46 CW $2.99 Marvel 107,900

Even Rob's lowest issue back then would've been #5 today.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Even Rob's lowest issue back then would've been #5 today.
10 Wolverine 46 CW $2.99 Marvel 107,900


:laugh: That's not even close to how sales work.

Oh, and saying CBG is your source isn't sourcing something. Lets see a scan or a link.

[Terry]

:laugh: That's not even close to how sales work.

Oh, and saying CBG is your source isn't sourcing something. Lets see a scan or a link.


You're the one who compared it to today's sales, not me.

And here's the link:

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1672

For someone so "knowledgable" about sales in the comic world, you should know that website already.

[kdmelrose]

Looking back at Comics Buyer's Guide sales estimates, I don't think you can say the "Heroes Reborn" books "sold huge" by the standards of the day.

The first issues all did well: Preorders for Fantastic Four were an estimated 314,000; Iron Man, 277,500; Avengers, 276,700; and Captain America, 274,100.

For comparison, that's month's Uncanny X-Men sold 203,700, Spawn sold 161,500, and Amazing Spider-Man sold 87,900. So, those debut issues did well.

But the second issues saw huge drop-offs: Fantastic Four, 162,500 (-52%); Iron Man, 140,000 (-50%); Captain America, 131,900 (-48%); and Avengers, 131,000 (-47%). They slipped from the Top 5 spots to Nos. 6, 8, 11 and 12, respectively.

By the third issues, the drop had slowed: Fantastic Four, 154,600; Iron Man, 138,700; Avengers, 125,200; and Captain America, 124,600. (The top-selling title that month was Superman: The Wedding Album Collector's Edition, with 227,700.)

By issue six, which I think was the end of Liefeld's stint, sales had pretty much found their level: Fantastic Four, 155,700; Iron Man, 136,800; Avengers, 120,200; and Captain America, 116,600.

Those are good numbers by 1996 standards, and great by today's. But after the first issues, there's nothing about those numbers that indicates "Heroes Reborn" was the "blockbuster" that we're often led to believe it was.

[Mr.Musgrave]

You're the one who compared it to today's sales, not me.

And here's the link:

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1672

For someone so "knowledgable" about sales in the comic world, you should know that website already.


#1 That's not the type of comparison I was giving.

#2. It's got nothing to do with not knowing the website. The burden of proof is yours, not mine.

#3. From your very own link:

"The new versions generated plenty of debate, with Liefeld’s version of Captain America in particular the target of much heated invective from many fans. The “Heroes Reborn” titles were solid hits in the declining market of 1996, performing far better than their previous counterparts, although it remains to be seen whether the purchases came from new consumers or represent dollars rerouted from the dozens of Marvel titles that did not survive into 1996."

You crack me up, fanboy.

[Terry]

Looking back at Comics Buyer's Guide sales estimates, I don't think you can say the "Heroes Reborn" books "sold huge" by the standards of the day.

The first issues all did well: Preorders for Fantastic Four were an estimated 314,000; Iron Man, 277,500; Avengers, 276,700; and Captain America, 274,100.

For comparison, that's month's Uncanny X-Men sold 203,700, Spawn sold 161,500, and Amazing Spider-Man sold 87,900. So, those debut issues did well.

But the second issues saw huge drop-offs: Fantastic Four, 162,500 (-52%); Iron Man, 140,000 (-50%); Captain America, 131,900 (-48%); and Avengers, 131,000 (-47%). They slipped from the Top 5 spots to Nos. 6, 8, 11 and 12, respectively.

By the third issues, the drop had slowed: Fantastic Four, 154,600; Iron Man, 138,700; Avengers, 125,200; and Captain America, 124,600. (The top-selling title that month was Superman: The Wedding Album Collector's Edition, with 227,700.)

By issue six, which I think was the end of Liefeld's stint, sales had pretty much found their level: Fantastic Four, 155,700; Iron Man, 136,800; Avengers, 120,200; and Captain America, 116,600.

Those are good numbers by 1996 standards, and great by today's. But after the first issues, there's nothing about those numbers that indicates "Heroes Reborn" was the "blockbuster" that we're often led to believe it was.

True - But considering that all 4 of those books weren't selling at all before HR, except the short Waid/Garney Cap run, which still wasn't selling as high as the HR issues, it was very big success. 100,000 is 100,000, no matter what year it is.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Looking back at Comics Buyer's Guide sales estimates, I don't think you can say the "Heroes Reborn" books "sold huge" by the standards of the day.

Thus, my comparison.

[Mikeg]

You're the one who compared it to today's sales, not me.

And here's the link:

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1672

For someone so "knowledgable" about sales in the comic world, you should know that website already.

Yeah Im with terry on this one, theres no real arugument here, the books sold well and Liefeld was not kicked off the books due to low sales. they tried to re negotiate his and jims contract, Jim agreed liefeld did not, simple as that.

The reason these books are still considered succesful is not because of how they sold compared to other books though, its how they sold compared to what they were selling before lee and liefeld came on, which was horribly. They re invigerated the characters and got a ton of new fans into them. I know they got me into Fantastic four and captain america for the first time. And I still get those books to this day, if they have a good team on them.

[Terry]

#3. From your very own link:

"The new versions generated plenty of debate, with Liefeld’s version of Captain America in particular the target of much heated invective from many fans. The “Heroes Reborn” titles were solid hits in the declining market of 1996, performing far better than their previous counterparts, although it remains to be seen whether the purchases came from new consumers or represent dollars rerouted from the dozens of Marvel titles that did not survive into 1996."

You crack me up, fanboy.

Aaaand? I don't get your point here, hater.

[Mr.Musgrave]

100,000 is 100,000, no matter what year it is.


No, that's cancellation level in this day and age. Now use your head and figure out what it would be back when comics actually sold big. :rolleyes:

[Mr.Musgrave]

Aaaand? I don't get your point here, hater.

I'm not surprised by that. Your own link casts doubt on your own, obviously incorrect, "facts."

[Mr.Musgrave]

The reason these books are still considered succesful is not because of how they sold compared to other books though, its how they sold compared to what they were selling before lee and liefeld came on, which was horribly.


So they sold slightly better than utter failures. Yeah, that's a good thing in what marketing land?

[Mikeg]

#1 That's not the type of comparison I was giving.

#2. It's got nothing to do with not knowing the website. The burden of proof is yours, not mine.

#3. From your very own link:

"The new versions generated plenty of debate, with Liefeld’s version of Captain America in particular the target of much heated invective from many fans. The “Heroes Reborn” titles were solid hits in the declining market of 1996, performing far better than their previous counterparts, although it remains to be seen whether the purchases came from new consumers or represent dollars rerouted from the dozens of Marvel titles that did not survive into 1996."

You crack me up, fanboy.

well I know for a fact that me and my friends were new readers to the books, Im pretty sure that the rest of the image generation were picking those books up as well. You gotta understand, those of us that grew up on image books had no interest at all in those characters before this project. There was alot of new readers.

[Terry]

No, that's cancellation level in this day and age. Now use your head and figure out what it would be back when comics actually sold big. :rolleyes:

100,000 is cancellation level? You are absolutely ridiculous! According to your logic, only 12 comics in todays market don't warrent cancellation. You are too funny.

[Mr.Musgrave]

100,000 is cancellation level? You are absolutely ridiculous! According to your logic, only 12 comics in todays market don't warrent cancellation. You are too funny.

Why do you think there are only a handful of regular titles from the big two, brainiac?

[Terry]

I'm not surprised by that. Your own link casts doubt on your own, obviously incorrect, "facts."

Once again, say something. That's 2 posts in a row with you (unsuccessfully) trying to be cute. Don't hide behind attempted sarcasm.

[Terry]

Why do you think there are only a handful of regular titles from the big two, brainiac?


A handfull? Marvel has dozens of "regular" titles. So does DC.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Once again, say something. That's 2 posts in a row with you (unsuccessfully) trying to be cute. Don't hide behind attempted sarcasm.


Your own link casts doubt on your own, obviously incorrect, "facts."

What about that was hard to understand? Jesus Christ!

[Mikeg]

So they sold slightly better than utter failures. Yeah, that's a good thing in what marketing land?

not slightly better, massively better. And better then successes of today. 1996 was not the early 90's, thats when the boom was, by 96 the crazy boom days were over, these books were succesful by those days standards as well.

[Terry]

So they sold slightly better than utter failures. Yeah, that's a good thing in what marketing land?
They doubled previous sales.

[Justice41]

Post the six months sales figures before HR.

[Mr.Musgrave]

A handfull? Marvel has dozens of "regular" titles. So does DC.


You're not overly bright, are you? I'm done with this. I should have known better than to attempt a converstaion based on facts with a newbie Liefeld fanboy.

[Mikeg]

Your own link casts doubt on your own, obviously incorrect, "facts."

What about that was hard to understand? Jesus Christ!

No it dosnt.

[Terry]

Your own link casts doubt on your own, obviously incorrect, "facts."

What about that was hard to understand? Jesus Christ!

Again, what about my own link does that? I gave you numbers. I gave you facts. The books sold huge. Someone's personal commentary on that site somehow lessens the sales number?

[ChrisK]

New Dimensions Comics in Cranberry, Pa. You can make up whatever fanboy nonsense you want but the numbers, unlike Liefeld, do not lie. I suppose you believe that Liefeld left Image of his own accord too. :rolleyes:


Small world, I used to love New Dimensions, its more of a summer comic trip now, since I like to go to Fun-for-All as well. I haven't been there for a while though... like 6-8 months. All I know is the ND in Century III sucks(personal opinion). Its huge, its got some sweet deals, but I walk in there, and it's never the friendliest of comic shops, the guys working there act like its a struggle to get up and wring up my books. I just get that vibe. So now I stick closer to home, and visit Phantom.

I didnt know you where that close Mus.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Again, what about my own link does that? I gave you numbers. I gave you facts. The books sold huge. Someone's personal commentary on that site somehow lessens the sales number?


Because the sales numbers WERE NOT HUGE. We've already covered that.

[Mikeg]

You're not overly bright, are you? I'm done with this. I should have known better than to attempt a converstaion based on facts with a newbie Liefeld fanboy.

boy you really think highly of yourself, calling him a newbie because he's new to THIS message board, like its special or something. your the one who refusese to accept FACTS, and bases your opinions on shadows of doubt, which really hold no water.

[Terry]

Because the sales numbers WERE NOT HUGE. We've already covered that.

So, what would have been huge? This wasn't 1994.

[Mikeg]

Because the sales numbers WERE NOT HUGE. We've already covered that.

Yes they were, your wrong and obiously just trying to convince yourself that you won the argument somehow that you are so obiously losing.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Small world, I used to love New Dimensions, its more of a summer comic trip now, since I like to go to Fun-for-All as well. I haven't been there for a while though... like 6-8 months. All I know is the ND in Century III sucks(personal opinion). Its huge, its got some sweet deals, but I walk in there, and it's never the friendliest of comic shops, the guys working there act like its a struggle to get up and wring up my books. I just get that vibe. So now I stick closer to home, and visit Phantom.

I didnt know you where that close Mus.

I didn't realize that either. Honestly, the NDC job was the worst job I've ever had. Everything went against logic and, you're right, it wasn't a very friendly place. I like Phantom a lot though. I just never get up that way much.

I haven't been to Fun-For-All in years though. I used to go there to play that Marvel fighting game based around the infinity wars. It's been that long.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Yes they were, your wrong and obiously just trying to convince yourself that you won the argument somehow that you are so obiously losing.

The first issues all did well: Preorders for Fantastic Four were an estimated 314,000; Iron Man, 277,500; Avengers, 276,700; and Captain America, 274,100.

For comparison, that's month's Uncanny X-Men sold 203,700, Spawn sold 161,500, and Amazing Spider-Man sold 87,900. So, those debut issues did well.

But the second issues saw huge drop-offs: Fantastic Four, 162,500 (-52%); Iron Man, 140,000 (-50%); Captain America, 131,900 (-48%); and Avengers, 131,000 (-47%). They slipped from the Top 5 spots to Nos. 6, 8, 11 and 12, respectively.

By the third issues, the drop had slowed: Fantastic Four, 154,600; Iron Man, 138,700; Avengers, 125,200; and Captain America, 124,600. (The top-selling title that month was Superman: The Wedding Album Collector's Edition, with 227,700.)

By issue six, which I think was the end of Liefeld's stint, sales had pretty much found their level: Fantastic Four, 155,700; Iron Man, 136,800; Avengers, 120,200; and Captain America, 116,600.

You see these numbers? These are not huge numbers for the time. Good but NOT HUGE. And the only one here who agrees with you is the OTHER Liefeld fanboy. Odd thing, that. :slap:

[Terry]

here was your original post:

AoA wasn't a massive sales failure and they didn't have to replace the creative teams due to low sales unlike Heroes Reborn.

Massive sales failure? Not at all. But now it sounds like you're backing off of that line of thinking.

[Mr.Musgrave]

here was your original post:

Massive sales failure? Not at all. But now it sounds like you're backing off of that line of thinking.

The line failed didn't it? The books were cancelled weren't they? Yes, they were. Did the same thing happen to AoA? No, no it didn't.

Try again, fanboy.

[Mwynn]

:har:

[Mikeg]

here was your original post:



Massive sales failure? Not at all. But now it sounds like you're backing off of that line of thinking.

Dont worry terry this is one of the guys who is just jealous of Liefelds success, Im sure he has a problem with the way Rob draws, so he thinks that everything he does MUST be a failure.

[Terry]

The line failed didn't it? The books were cancelled weren't they? Yes, they were. Did the same thing happen to AoA? No, no it didn't.

Try again, fanboy.

What books were cancelled? What are you talking about?! They were supposed to go 12 issues, and they actually ran an extra issue for the Wildstorm crossover.

[Mikeg]

The line failed didn't it? The books were cancelled weren't they? Yes, they were. Did the same thing happen to AoA? No, no it didn't.

Try again, fanboy.
They failed because marvel went into bankruptcy and tried to renegotiate the contracts, they failed because Liefeld left the books, had he stayed the success would have stayed. So Liefelds part of the books were still a success. Your logic is completely flawed.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Dont worry terry this is one of the guys who is just jealous of Liefelds success, Im sure he has a problem with the way Rob draws, so he thinks that everything he does MUST be a failure.


And THERE we have it! The "jealousy" retort of the fanboy. Facts mean nothing to the fanboy, only their mindlessly blind loyalty. You guys keep sucking the dick of your coked out tracer hero. I'm sure he loves it. :laugh:

[Mikeg]

What books were cancelled? What are you talking about?! They were supposed to go 12 issues, and they actually ran an extra issue for the Wildstorm crossover.

Actually thats true, I forgot there was the 13th issue.

[Terry]

And THERE we have it! The "jealousy" retort of the fanboy. Facts mean nothing to the fanboy, only their mindlessly blind loyalty. You guys keep sucking the dick of your coked out tracer hero. I'm sure he loves it. :laugh:
And here we go. When the hater's argument is lost, he resorts to childlike vulgarities. By posting this, you admit defeat.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a217/sharcque/personal/av7812gn.gif

[Biofungus]

I'll agree that the first issues were huge. But ONLY the first issues. For the era (and no, the 90's boom did NOT die down before HR, in fact it *culminated* with HR, HR was the closing bookend), so issues 2-6 were decent sellers by that standpoint, but not "huge hits" by that days standard. They would be huge hits by TODAY's standards.

[Mr.Musgrave]

They failed because marvel went into bankruptcy and tried to renegotiate the contracts, they failed because Liefeld left the books, had he stayed the success would have stayed. So Liefelds part of the books were still a success. Your logic is completely flawed.


The books sales were dropping monthly with Liefeld ON the books, retard! How is that sucessful? You own link shows that the books sales dropped almost 50% across the board after the first month. Anyone with half a brain knows that it wasn't a huge sucess.

[Mikeg]

And THERE we have it! The "jealousy" retort of the fanboy. Facts mean nothing to the fanboy, only their mindlessly blind loyalty. You guys keep sucking the dick of your coked out tracer hero. I'm sure he loves it. :laugh:

No the facts mean everything, but you are jealous of Liefelds artistis ability that much is obvious, otherwise you wouldnt be here talking about it. What do you care if his books are succesful or not, there must be some motivation for you putting so much energy into bashing robs work.

[Mr.Musgrave]

And here we go. When the hater's argument is lost, he resorts to childlike vulgarities. By posting this, you admit defeat.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a217/sharcque/personal/av7812gn.gif


Go back and look, genius. Your buddy Mike made the first insult. But I know how facts and logic confuse you.

[Mr.Musgrave]

No the facts mean everything, but you are jealous of Liefelds artistis ability that much is obvious, otherwise you wouldnt be here talking about it. What do you care if his books are succesful or not, there must be some motivation for you putting so much energy into bashing robs work.


Jealous of his artwork?! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Are you fucking high? Jealous of a tracer who is a joke to the artistic world? Are you fucking high?!


Edit: And why are we here talking about it? BECAUSE THIS IS A COMIC BOOK MESSAGE BOARD, IDIOT.

[kdmelrose]

... they failed because Liefeld left the books, had he stayed the success would have stayed.

The post-Liefled issues didn't experience that much of a sales drop, really. Avengers and Captain America both kept above the 100,000 mark.

[Terry]

Go back and look, genius. Your buddy Mike made the first insult. But I know how facts and logic confuse you.

Goofy back & forth banter is one thing. Vulgarity is another.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Goofy back & forth banter is one thing. Vulgarity is another.


Oh, more excuses. There's a big surprise. Thanks for proving my point about you, too.

[Biofungus]

They failed because marvel went into bankruptcy and tried to renegotiate the contracts, they failed because Liefeld left the books, had he stayed the success would have stayed. So Liefelds part of the books were still a success. Your logic is completely flawed.


I'm going to disagree with this. Marvel brought Lee and Liefeld onto HR as a PR stunt, but because of the nature of the event, I don't think they needed to add the extra "gimmick" to do the numbers they did. Liefeld only brought derision to the series. Lee was still riding a wave of popularity, whereas Liefeld was being frowned upon, and they still did similar numbers.

I admit that this the numbers added (if any) via the creative teams used are not totally quantifiable, but I believe there's evidence to suggest that they didn't make as big an impact as people seem to think.

Your logic that Liefeld made HR a "huge hit" is more flawed than just about any argument you're attempting to counter.

[Mr.Musgrave]

The post-Liefled issues didn't experience that much of a sales drop, really. Avengers and Captain America both kept above the 100,000 mark.


You're just jealous, KD. You know you are.

What? I'm just saving them the effort.

[Terry]

Oh, more excuses. There's a big surprise. Thanks for proving my point about you, too.
What excuses? and I did go back & look. You were the first to start with the "brainiac" & "fanboy" comments. And you're the only one using vulgarities and curse words.

[Mr.Musgrave]

#1. Mines still better. At least I know anatomy. Oh, and I'm not a tracer.

#2. Steal an image from my site again and you'll be hearing from my lawyer.

[Biofungus]

And here we go. When the hater's argument is lost, he resorts to childlike vulgarities. By posting this, you admit defeat.



Actually, the "you must be jealous" argument is the first, and last sign of a desperate (and completely failed) Leifeld argument. You haven't been on this particular website long enough to realize that.

[ChrisK]

I didn't realize that either. Honestly, the NDC job was the worst job I've ever had. Everything went against logic and, you're right, it wasn't a very friendly place. I like Phantom a lot though. I just never get up that way much.

I haven't been to Fun-For-All in years though. I used to go there to play that Marvel fighting game based around the infinity wars. It's been that long.

It was either: Marvel Super Heroes, Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter, or Marvel vs. Capcom. and that was back when Fun-For-All was relatively new. I remember going there when it opened, it was awesome (I was a lot smaller then) and everything was bright, and new, they took GOOD care of the turf on the mini-golf, and it was alot cleaner. meh... Its still one of the bigger arcades left in/around the pittsburgh area, even though most of the games are whack.

By the way, the mall Phantom is in, Parkway Center, is getting smaller and smaller, there is about 6 stores left, including phantom, K-mart, and a few clothes stores. The entire downstairs is closed down, as is the entire third floor. K-mart is keeping that place alive. I remember when Parkway Center had a HUGE arcade. I remember it being one of the biggest around for a while, it even had enclosed rides. I'm getting old... :\

[Terry]

#1. Mines still better. At least I know anatomy.

#2. Steal an image from my site again and you'll be hearing from my lawyer.

#1. http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a217/sharcque/emotes/lachen70.gif

#2. http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a217/sharcque/emotes/bouncebig.gif

[Terry]

Actually, the "you must be jealous" argument is the first, and last sign of a desperate (and completely failed) Leifeld argument. You haven't been on this particular website long enough to realize that.

I've lurked here for years. Vulgarity trumps jealousy anytime.

[Mikeg]

I'm going to disagree with this. Marvel brought Lee and Liefeld onto HR as a PR stunt, but because of the nature of the event, I don't think they needed to add the extra "gimmick" to do the numbers they did. Liefeld only brought derision to the series. Lee was still riding a wave of popularity, whereas Liefeld was being frowned upon, and they still did similar numbers.

I admit that this the numbers added (if any) via the creative teams used are not totally quantifiable, but I believe there's evidence to suggest that they didn't make as big an impact as people seem to think.

Your logic that Liefeld made HR a "huge hit" is more flawed than just about any argument you're attempting to counter.

I can see some validity in your argument, however, I know for a fact that I was one of the people who was a new customer of these products and they were HUGE. It was a really big deal when this happened and really did bring alot of popularity to these characters that was not there before.

[Mr.Musgrave]

By the way, the mall Phantom is in, Parkway Center, is getting smaller and smaller, there is about 6 stores left, including phantom, K-mart, and a few clothes stores. The entire downstairs is closed down, as is the entire third floor. K-mart is keeping that place alive. I remember when Parkway Center had a HUGE arcade. I remember it being one of the biggest around for a while, it even had enclosed rides. I'm getting old... :\


Oh, I was talking about the Phantom in Oakland. Yeah, the Parkway Center Mall is a ghost town.

[Biofungus]

It was either: Marvel Super Heroes, Marvel Super Heroes vs. Street Fighter, or Marvel vs. Capcom.

Actually, I think he meant "War of the Gems". That game holds my best video game moment. I was playing, and some scuz decides to join in, and he enters all these cheat codes to get all the gems at the beginning of the game, and it doesn't do squat for him. I kicked his ass :laugh:

[Mr.Musgrave]

I can see some validity in your argument, however, I know for a fact that I was one of the people who was a new customer of these products and they were HUGE. It was a really big deal when this happened and really did bring alot of popularity to these characters that was not there before.


Nostalgia and news coverage does not equal sales. And your fanboy buddy might thing I'm kidding but I'm not. Remove the image and if you steal from me again you will hear from my lawyer. It won't be the first time I've done it and it won't be the last. What you've done is illegal and I don't fuck around when it comes to people stealing from me.

Then again, I should expect this kind of shit from Liefeld fanboys.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Actually, I think he meant "War of the Gems".


That's the one!

[Mikeg]

#1. Mines still better. At least I know anatomy. Oh, and I'm not a tracer.

#2. Steal an image from my site again and you'll be hearing from my lawyer.

1. No, no its really..really not. Someone lied to you.

2. Oh Im sure Id be hearing from them really quick, since I STOLE it from your page...pfft :banana: Peanut butter jelly time peanut butter jelly time :carrot:

[Biofungus]

I can see some validity in your argument, however, I know for a fact that I was one of the people who was a new customer of these products and they were HUGE. It was a really big deal when this happened and really did bring alot of popularity to these characters that was not there before.
Arguably, the Marvel hype machine could have been more responsible. Kevin pointed out that the post Liefeld issues saw a very little reduction in sales, showing that the popularity really had little to do with Liefeld.

Historically, when a comic goes through a "restart", especially when it's hyped so much (like the Superman restart in the 80's, Spiderman with MacFarlane, etc), there will ALWAYS be people jumping on, curious about the story (can you think of a better jumping on point?). When the numbers carry w/o the creators, you have to realistically consider it wasn't necessarily the creator who carried the book ;)

[Mr.Musgrave]

1. No, no its really..really not. Someone lied to you.

2. Oh Im sure Id be hearing from them really quick, since I STOLE it from your page...pfft :banana: Peanut butter jelly time peanut butter jelly time :carrot:


1: Again, at least I'm not a tracer.

2: You did steal it, assbag. Remove the image. Fucking fanboy thief.

[Terry]

Nostalgia and news coverage does not equal sales. And your fanboy buddy might thing I'm kidding but I'm not. Remove the image and if you steal from me again you will hear from my lawyer. It won't be the first time I've done it and it won't be the last. What you've done is illegal and I don't fuck around when it comes to people stealing from me.

Then again, I should expect this kind of shit from Liefeld fanboys.
Because him posting that pic here is going to make him a lot of money, right? :rolleyes:

[ChrisK]

Oh, I was talking about the Phantom in Oakland. Yeah, the Parkway Center Mall is a ghost town.

oh yeah! Oakland is nice, kinda tight squeeze though...


Actually, I think he meant "War of the Gems". That game holds my best video game moment. I was playing, and some scuz decides to join in, and he enters all these cheat codes to get all the gems at the beginning of the game, and it doesn't do squat for him. I kicked his ass.

Its Marvel Super Heroes. War of the Gems was on SNES.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Because him posting that pic here is going to make him a lot of money, right? :rolleyes:


Money has nothing to do with it. He removed an image/page from my site and posted it without permission. That is illegal. But again, art legalities mean little to Liefeld fanboys.

[Biofungus]

1. No, no its really..really not. Someone lied to you.

2. Oh Im sure Id be hearing from them really quick, since I STOLE it from your page...pfft :banana: Peanut butter jelly time peanut butter jelly time :carrot:
Steve is here as a comics fan, not a comics artist (although he is a great artist in his own right, he just doesn't apply it to comics), so comparing the two first off, is moot.

And taking an image really is a rotten (and potentially illegal) thing to do (or haven't you been following all the 'swipers' threads?) Instead of mocking Steve for wanting to defend his copyright, you should have just posted a link.

And for the record, I'd rather see a comic done by Steve. He has a much better dynamic. I can't believe you can call someone "jealous" of Liefelds work yet fail to see the GIGANTIC flaws in it (including the stiffness of his characters, and his extremely limited pose and camera angle range).

[Terry]

Money has nothing to do with it. He removed an image/page from my site and posted it without permission. That is illegal. But again, art legalities mean little to Liefeld fanboys.

Why not disable the right-click ability on your site if you don't want it copied?

[ChrisK]

Money has nothing to do with it. He removed an image/page from my site and posted it without permission. That is illegal. But again, art legalities mean little to Liefeld fanboys.

I hate to do this, but technically, he gave you credit, so he didnt steal the image... he is, however, stealing your bandwidth, for that you can smack him.

and yes, your anatomy is better than liefelds. At least you didn't draw Spider-Man with boobs.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Why not disable the right-click ability on your site if you don't want it copied?


It is right-click disabled. He lifted the entire page. Either way, it's still illegal.

[Terry]

I hate to do this, but technically, he gave you credit, so he didnt steal the image... he is, however, stealing your bandwidth, for that you can smack him.

and yes, your anatomy is better than liefelds. At least you didn't draw Spider-Man with boobs.
Nope -- he's not stealing bandwidth, either.

[Mr.Musgrave]

I hate to do this, but technically, he gave you credit, so he didnt steal the image... he is, however, stealing your bandwidth, for that you can smack him.


He still lifted it without permission.

[Biofungus]

Its Marvel Super Heroes. War of the Gems was on SNES.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Super-Heroes_(video_game)

I didn't know what the prefix was for the game.

[Mr.Musgrave]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Super-Heroes_(video_game)

I didn't know what the prefix was for the game.


Whatever it was called, it was a cool game.

[Terry]

Ok guys, it's been fun. Gotta get to work now.

Hey Mus, you need to disable the right click on the index of your pics on the left side of the page. Pretty sure that's how it was copied.

[ChrisK]

oops, I missed the photodump.com banner as well... you're right Mus. He's a thief and a troll. All we need is a Warrior, a Wizard, and a Valkyrie and we've got us some Guantlet.

[Mr.Musgrave]

oops, I missed the photodump.com banner as well... you're right Mus. He's a thief and a troll. All we need is a Warrior, a Wizard, and a Valkyrie and we've got us some Guantlet.

Someone needs to ban his ass before I completely flip shit.

[Mikeg]

Ok guys, it's been fun. Gotta get to work now.

Hey Mus, you need to disable the right click on the index of your pics on the left side of the page. Pretty sure that's how it was copied.

word, Im just about to get OFF work, so I gotta go too.

[Biofungus]

Nope -- he's not stealing bandwidth, either.
Doesn't matter. People can't just do what they want with other people's copyrighted work. Creating pictures of known comic characters for the purpose of a portfolio falls under "fair use", but taking an image from someone's site (Steve still owns the copyright to the picture, even if not the Spiderman character in the picture), and he had no *legal* rights to use it in any way, shape or form (and the fact that he reposted it violates the copyright further).

[Mikeg]

Doesn't matter. People can't just do what they want with other people's copyrighted work. Creating pictures of known comic characters for the purpose of a portfolio falls under "fair use", but taking an image from someone's site (Steve still owns the copyright to the picture, even if not the Spiderman character in the picture), and he had no *legal* rights to use it in any way, shape or form (and the fact that he reposted it violates the copyright further).

Thats not true and wouldnt hold up in court, I can do whatever I want with his pictures, he has them on a public website that he has links to. As long as I dont make money I can spread that pic all over the web. If what you were saying held any water, liefeld couldve sued the world for spreading that cap picture around.

[ChrisK]

I'm not touching this one.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Thats not true and wouldnt hold up in court, I can do whatever I want with his pictures, he has them on a public website that he has links to. As long as I dont make money I can spread that pic all over the web. If what you were saying held any water, liefeld couldve sued the world for spreading that cap picture around.


Wrong fuckwit. Entirely wrong. And it absolutely holds up in court, especially since I've already sued someone who stole from my site. Good to know you're an absolute fanboy moron.

[Mr.Musgrave]

I'm not touching this one.


Guy's the biggest fucking idiot we've had around here in a long time.

[Mikeg]

Guy's the biggest fucking idiot we've had around here in a long time.

so Im like #1? Whoo hoo!

Are you ten?

[Biofungus]

Thats not true and wouldnt hold up in court, I can do whatever I want with his pictures, he has them on a public website that he has links to. As long as I dont make money I can spread that pic all over the web. If what you were saying held any water, liefeld couldve sued the world for spreading that cap picture around.
No, he couldn't because he did it as part of his contract with Marvel, who used it in a brief pre-HR promo for HR.

[kdmelrose]

Thats not true and wouldnt hold up in court, I can do whatever I want with his pictures, he has them on a public website that he has links to. As long as I dont make money I can spread that pic all over the web. If what you were saying held any water, liefeld couldve sued the world for spreading that cap picture around.

You might want to read up on copyright law. There are some good links in the "Creator Resource" thread in Creator Community.