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View Full Version : Dave Finch =The New Liefeld or Greg Land?


Justice41
11-07-2006, 12:52 PM
David Finch's art:

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1176/img0339biv8.jpg

Sergio Toppi's art:

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/7915/05nh9.jpg

Buckyrig
11-07-2006, 01:01 PM
Go Go Go! :bounce:

ponyrl
11-07-2006, 01:13 PM
Oh shnikes!

Cap
11-07-2006, 01:19 PM
Well damn, I am a fan a Finch and this is a kick in the nuts.

Mr.Musgrave
11-07-2006, 01:31 PM
Tracer hack. Thanks for pointing out Sergio Toppi though. That samurai pic is really nice. Nice enough to steal and alter badly, it seems.

ponyrl
11-07-2006, 01:32 PM
You know what's even worst, at the top of Finch's page it says "No honor".

Wow.

Justice41
11-07-2006, 01:34 PM
At least Dave could have just added after Sergio in his sig. Sergio is an old master and why Dave thought he could steal his artwork, almost verbatim, is a mystery. Then again Dave's been swiping Jim Lee and Travis Charest panels for some time now. He's a great renderer but this just knocks him down a few notches.

Justice41
11-07-2006, 01:37 PM
How did IJamal remove completely his post? I ws just about to respond to him that by the time most abusers get caught many offenses have been commited beforehand.

cybershaw
11-07-2006, 01:55 PM
Damn, why do these guys do this so much/ Pressure, deadlines, run out of ideas? It seems like some really talented guys are getting outed as of late. Do you guys think any of the old school ( Kirby, Eisner, Busma era) guy did this or is it just the climate of producing over rendered photo real art?

Discuss amongst yourselves...or here, i guess. :whistlin:

JasonM
11-07-2006, 01:57 PM
I think it's less a case of this suddenly happening now and more a case of never before has information been so readily available to so many and communication so quick. Before it would take years for something like this to get out if it was ever caught to begin with. Now it takes 5 minutes and a forum.

Eliseu Gouveia
11-07-2006, 02:06 PM
Dayum, Sergio is amazing!

j giar
11-07-2006, 02:13 PM
I've never really been a big fan of this guys work! It's just that it's not really that much different than what Lee or Silvestri were doing back in the late 90's ,early 00's so it's not that devastating to me. It's a shame that someone of this guys talent would do something so blatant and not give cred where it's due.

Scott Story
11-07-2006, 03:02 PM
I have to admit, I didn't know Finch took other people's art. It's still a mystery to me why you would take the time to steal art (i.e., trace it) when it takes less time to lay it out yourself. I mean, at least for me, I can make up art quicker than I can slavishly copy it: of course, I never have copied other people, so I'm assuming it would take less time; and, my style is not as line heavy as Finche's

Recently Marvel put out a letter to its artists telling them not to plagiarize. I know this is an Image page, but that letter should have been a shot across the bow for the whole comic art world.

This is as bad as that Bachalo thing, where he use a page twice, once for an Image cover and once for a Marvel splash page, and didn't tell either publisher.

Don't people know stealing is wrong? Or do they just not understand what is or is not stealing? Or do they just not want to know?

j giar
11-07-2006, 03:25 PM
I have to admit, I didn't know Finch took other people's art. It's still a mystery to me why you would take the time to steal art (i.e., trace it) when it takes less time to lay it out yourself. I mean, at least for me, I can make up art quicker than I can slavishly copy it: of course, I never have copied other people, so I'm assuming it would take less time; and, my style is not as line heavy as Finche's

Recently Marvel put out a letter to its artists telling them not to plagiarize. I know this is an Image page, but that letter should have been a shot across the bow for the whole comic art world.

This is as bad as that Bachalo thing, where he use a page twice, once for an Image cover and once for a Marvel splash page, and didn't tell either publisher.

Don't people know stealing is wrong? Or do they just not understand what is or is not stealing? Or do they just not want to know?

I don't care how ignorant you are, you have to know what is right and wrong. What's stealing and what's not! Or maybe I'm giving him to much credit...I'm with you Scott...I don't understand it.

Kel Nuttall
11-07-2006, 03:42 PM
What makes me laugh is how many people talk about right and wrong and stealing when it comes to the "sacred" topic of comic art....but, honestly, how many of you shouting "thief!" have STOLEN music, movies, comics or software on your computers?

Not that I'm defending this kind of swiping, I'm just busting on the hypocracy. ;)

Scott Story
11-07-2006, 04:06 PM
I understand what you are saying, Kel. Once I started having properties of my own, and understood the nature of intellectual property and what it means to own it, I got militant about it. I don't take free computer programs from friends, I've never ripped a movie, etc. I didn't always feel this way, but I do now. It's hard to make money off your properties, and even harder when people can easily rip it off. Piracy of any sort sucks.

cybershaw
11-07-2006, 05:21 PM
I'll burn a Tool CD, but i'm not going to pass it off as my music. These are two seperate issues

Nitecrawlah2
11-07-2006, 05:39 PM
Could someone post information regarding the Chris Bachalo situation? I totally missed that one.

David Finch's artwork always looked like an Image-studio born and bred style anyways, so I was never a big fan. But this trace is one of the most obvious pieces I've ever seen. The Sergio piece itself looks sweet though.

Scott Story
11-07-2006, 05:55 PM
The Bachalo thing was from about a month back in CBR's Lying in the Gutters.

Biofungus
11-07-2006, 06:22 PM
What makes me laugh is how many people talk about right and wrong and stealing when it comes to the "sacred" topic of comic art....but, honestly, how many of you shouting "thief!" have STOLEN music, movies, comics or software on your computers?

Not that I'm defending this kind of swiping, I'm just busting on the hypocracy. ;)
I totally understand this, but it's not quite the same thing. The thing is, these artists are basically making money off of copying others work. I'm not saying stealing music, etc. is okay, but at least most people who do it aren't claiming it as their own and trying to make money from it.

Erick Cruz
11-07-2006, 06:42 PM
So this is one piece where it's proven he copied someones art, i ask when was this piece done? it's on an Image board so it mustve been done when he was still at Top cow which was almost 3 yrs ago? It might be a practice he hasnt done since?
Justice41 said he's been stealing from Jim lee and Travis Charest i'd like to see these swipes before i start ragging on Finch more. Not saying what he did is right (in this case), but it might be just a one time thing, unless what Justice says is true.

Justice41
11-07-2006, 06:52 PM
Books from 2001.
http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=57762430921%201%20FINCH%20CVR
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/57762430921.1.FINCH.CVR.GIF

Erick Cruz
11-07-2006, 07:00 PM
I totally understand this, but it's not quite the same thing. The thing is, these artists are basically making money off of copying others work. I'm not saying stealing music, etc. is okay, but at least most people who do it aren't claiming it as their own and trying to make money from it.

Again im not condoning stealing but i have a different point of view on certain things.

Musicians for the most part make their money from:
a) their record label contracts
b) Tours
and finally record sales, which they make only a small percentage from, the majority goes to the label. So when music is shared online or thru ripped cds by a friend of yours you're hardly doing a dent to their income.

Ofcourse smaller indy type bands make a bit more from sales but if we're comapring apples to apples Finch is far from being a small timer.

When it comes to art, in this case comic book art it's not mostly about the money, its more about ethics and morals. If someone who does it often like in every comic he draws like Land then it becomes a problem, but if it's something that's done every time Haleys comet comes by doesnt mean it's right but i'd give the artist less of a hard time especially is it's a practice he doesnt do anymore.
We all know Liefeld did it but that's in the past, he still gets ragged for it but that was almost 10-15 years ago, i think maybe the most "rescent" are a photo of a swimsuit model he used for a cover and the SHIELD helicarrier in the original Heroes Reborn series. Certainly he has that stigma that'll stay with him forever but you have to give some sort of leeway in that (at least i hope for his sake) he's learned his lesson and wont do it again.

Erick Cruz
11-07-2006, 07:09 PM
Books from 2001.

alright, now we have a "point of origin" per se, by then Finch was pretty much one of TC's best artists so it's safe to say he was an established "star" in the industry. He made a conscious (sp?) decision that has come back to bite him in the ass 5 yrs laters (this should be sent to Rich Johnson at Lying in the Gutters over at cbr.com) and now we need to establish a pattern before we bury Finch's reputation.

Justice41
11-07-2006, 07:20 PM
Quiet you, the mob wants a lynching. ;)

Phatman
11-07-2006, 07:20 PM
Finch's work has grown past that of a Lee/Silvestri clone, but this is really bad. IMO, tracing a photo is bad, but stealing another artist's work this blatantly is really shitty.

Biofungus
11-07-2006, 07:39 PM
I dunno. That female face in the background looks really bad... Maybe he *should* be tracing more if that's the normal calibre of his work.

I know, that's harsh, but still, for a cover? I think an editor would have said something about the eye spacing at least...

j giar
11-07-2006, 07:53 PM
Maybe Finch IS Liefeld..and Liefeld is Finch. It's been a clever ploy this whole time.
When I was 6 I stole a baby ruth candy bar while with my stepfather. Being the clever thief that I was I pulled the candy bar out after I had got into the car. He took me back into the store and made me confess and apologize! I never stole again. Maybe he did this once under stress of deadlines and has never done it again. or....maybe he's been swipin the whole time.

Erick Cruz
11-07-2006, 10:59 PM
I dunno. That female face in the background looks really bad... Maybe he *should* be tracing more if that's the normal calibre of his work.

I know, that's harsh, but still, for a cover? I think an editor would have said something about the eye spacing at least...

Editors? what editors? wasnt that the point to Image, artists make the rules?

As far as the womans face, i remember reading in an interview with Finch (i believe in one of Wizards Top Cow specials) that he had a difficulty drawing womens faces (this is around the Ascention/Aphrodite IX days) which i think pretty much explains that face.

The Scribe
11-07-2006, 11:14 PM
What makes me laugh is how many people talk about right and wrong and stealing when it comes to the "sacred" topic of comic art.


You're going to say something like that on a comic forum!?

You're dead to me. :man:


but, honestly, how many of you shouting "thief!" have STOLEN music, movies, comics or software on your computers?

Not that I'm defending this kind of swiping, I'm just busting on the hypocracy. ;)


I've downloaded music before. I'm looking for a better psp I have Limewire, it's ok but not good enough.

But, anything I download usually, I buy or already have bought.

Still haven't "musicians" ripped up off enough, especially the new "music?"

They have one or two good songs, then the rest is just fluff.

eDuke
11-07-2006, 11:30 PM
I know this isn't a popular answer for several of you, but in the comic and commercial art business, especially in studio settings, sometimes you're told to copy something. Before jumping on someone for doing something many years ago.... ah, nevermind. I'm not gonna get into this.

Carry on.

The Scribe
11-07-2006, 11:35 PM
I know this isn't a popular answer for several of you, but in the comic and commercial art business, especially in studio settings, sometimes you're told to copy something. Before jumping on someone for doing something many years ago.... ah, nevermind. I'm not gonna get into this.

Carry on.

It's over their heads to believe that. :rolleyes:

Why jump all over someone for doing something years ago?

Anyway Leave Finch alone he draws swell. :thumbs:

Mr.Musgrave
11-07-2006, 11:51 PM
I know this isn't a popular answer for several of you, but in the comic and commercial art business, especially in studio settings, sometimes you're told to copy something.


Doesn't mean you have to do it. Ethics and all.

RandallFlagg
11-07-2006, 11:56 PM
Doesn't mean you have to do it. Ethics and all.
Yes you do! Never question what any authority figure tells you to do! Don't you know anything? When you start following all that "ethics" crap, then things get all screwy!

The-Spirit
11-08-2006, 12:01 AM
I'm reading another greg land swipe thread on another forum right now and I've been thinking about what bothers me the most about all this.
I love Old-school comics and i know those guys swiped and paid homage to each other but... They could really draw, they put in the long hours and made it happen. This trend towards mass swiping like Land and Liefield do is getting more dominant. I think unless someone cracks down on this and calls these guys out the artwork is going to get more and more antiseptic and impersonal, I'd love to see some of these guys go on sabbatical no internet no reference and just draw from life.

It kills me that with all the great advances in technology that make the artwork better, superior printing, color, and tools, modern artists are just using it to become machines. It's sad.

Justice41
11-08-2006, 08:53 AM
Read this. What the guy says about Jim Lee is funny because I've always thought the same thing ever since Lee started mimicking J Scott Campbell.
http://groups.msn.com/travischarest/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=5830&LastModified=4675585535253362609

The-Spirit
11-08-2006, 09:07 AM
AWWW Crap!

Travis Charest used the name Space Girl for his comic. :cry:

Paul Sanderson
11-10-2006, 05:55 AM
Don't people know stealing is wrong? Or do they just not understand what is or is not stealing? Or do they just not want to know?

They know, Scott, they just don't care.

zpro1
11-11-2006, 05:14 PM
Petty jealousy rules this board. If you think you can do better than stop griping about it and go do it. If you think you can draw better than Finch than do it. If you think you can draw better and never do a swipe in your life and know anatomy more than a Rob Liefeld than prove it. Pure Jealousy and envy is what make some guys tick I guess. :whistlin:
zpro1

ps. people would never get anywhere if they didnt steal every once in a while :laugh: Hey justice41 swipe any good Dale Keown pics lately.

kdmelrose
11-11-2006, 05:17 PM
You know a thread is past its expiration date when someone whips out the ol' "You're just jealous" comment ...

:rolleyes:

Mr.Musgrave
11-11-2006, 05:27 PM
You know a thread is past its expiration date when someone whips out the ol' "You're just jealous" comment ...

:rolleyes:


Apparently we have a new board douchebag though. He's just trying to make his presense known so we can start trashing him like the mindless little twat he is. Get hepatitis and die, zpro1!

Paul Sanderson
11-11-2006, 05:30 PM
That's a bit harsh, but yes, zpro is a douchebag, I quite agree.

kamikaze
11-11-2006, 06:18 PM
well, this thread was fun while it lasted...can anyone express opinions about anything anymore?

Scribbly
11-11-2006, 06:36 PM
well, this thread was fun while it lasted...can anyone express opinions about anything anymore?


Yes!! I want an explanation right now!
Why Sergio Toppi was stealing art from David Finch???
Ohh, those italian pirates!!!!

JamieRoberts
11-11-2006, 06:41 PM
I am jealous of Finch's natural talent.

Which is why he's a shit for not using it more.

Paul Sanderson
11-11-2006, 06:44 PM
I am jealous of Finch's natural talent.

Which is why he's a shit for not using it more.

Well said, Jamie.

Justice41
11-11-2006, 07:15 PM
Zpo1 is jealous that he hasn't the talent to swipe. Me swipe Keown? You outta your mind? And get beaten over the head like Finch and Land. I just know how to draw like a lot of different artists. I'm a mimic. ;)

Scott Story
11-11-2006, 07:16 PM
Petty jealousy rules this board. If you think you can do better than stop griping about it and go do it. If you think you can draw better than Finch than do it. If you think you can draw better and never do a swipe in your life and know anatomy more than a Rob Liefeld than prove it. Pure Jealousy and envy is what make some guys tick I guess.
zpro1

As far as I'm concerned, I haved proved all the above in my work. Of course, you are welcome to go check out my work and disagree with me. But, that's my opinion. :blink: ;)

protonik
11-11-2006, 08:40 PM
I am trying to think of an artist that hasn't done the same thing every now and again.

protonik
11-11-2006, 08:57 PM
Zpo1 is jealous that he hasn't the talent to swipe. Me swipe Keown? You outta your mind? And get beaten over the head like Finch and Land. I just know how to draw like a lot of different artists. I'm a mimic. ;)

That is actually a very good quality to have in this industry! Back when they USED to have fill ins they would ask the fill in to draw as close as possible to the regular artist and it got a lot of guys work. Its how Barry Smith got his start. I am always amazed at people who can do that. You could get hired on at a studio pretty easy with that ability.

MARK A ROBINSON
11-12-2006, 12:25 AM
Damn, why do these guys do this so much/ Pressure, deadlines, run out of ideas? It seems like some really talented guys are getting outed as of late. Do you guys think any of the old school ( Kirby, Eisner, Busma era) guy did this or is it just the climate of producing over rendered photo real art?

Discuss amongst yourselves...or here, i guess. :whistlin:

deadlines.Or just inspiration sometimes (i don't think to the extend of a carbon copy of the original- but hell- I have taken bits and pieces from tons of reference material...

PUH-leezzzzzze. a deadline is a deadline and i got bills to pay. But if it was my image and it was a blatant swipe- somebody would be getting a phone call and be paying my ass.

BUT-i dunno if i'd be so quick to go crucifying the guy without knowing the whole bit here...Things happen. Not saying it's right-but it does happen for various reasons when it does.This could have been approved by the original artist. Go deeper with the fact checking.

Sometimes things get altered and changed at the last minute without an artist's conscent. Not that it happened here-but you never know- it has happened to me.So...something to think about.

And if i'm not wrong that NO HONOR cover was ages ago? Finch has grown in leaps and bounds as an artist now.

I dunno-

This in no way changes the fact that I think David Finch kicks so much ass and is perhaps one of the best pencilers in the bizness right.
M.

Justice41
11-12-2006, 12:45 AM
That is actually a very good quality to have in this industry! Back when they USED to have fill ins they would ask the fill in to draw as close as possible to the regular artist and it got a lot of guys work. Its how Barry Smith got his start. I am always amazed at people who can do that. You could get hired on at a studio pretty easy with that ability.
Believe me in the field I'm in it has helped a lot. I get clients who need a certain look or style but the original artists aren't available or just too pricey so they come to us and get a fairly close replica of the style they want so their sales office's won't look awkward. The secret to being a good mimic is to start off with just a normal figure but do the finished rendering in the style of he/she you are emulating. Works everytime it's tried. This way you avoid swiping because all you are doing is applying a finish like a specific artist.

Justice41
11-12-2006, 12:48 AM
deadlines.Or just inspiration sometimes (i don't think to the extend of a carbon copy of the original- but hell- I have taken bits and pieces from tons of reference material...

PUH-leezzzzzze. a deadline is a deadline and i got bills to pay. But if it was my image and it was a blatant swipe- somebody would be getting a phone call and be paying my ass.

BUT-i dunno if i'd be so quick to go crucifying the guy without knowing the whole bit here...Things happen. Not saying it's right-but it does happen for various reasons when it does.This could have been approved by the original artist. Go deeper with the fact checking.

Sometimes things get altered and changed at the last minute without an artist's conscent. Not that it happened here-but you never know- it has happened to me.So...something to think about.

And if i'm not wrong that NO HONOR cover was ages ago? Finch has grown in leaps and bounds as an artist now.

I dunno-

This in no way changes the fact that I think David Finch kicks so much ass and is perhaps one of the best pencilers in the bizness right.
M.
You have questionable morals and ethics. Wrong is wrong.

MARK A ROBINSON
11-12-2006, 10:47 AM
You have questionable morals and ethics. Wrong is wrong.

Ummm..

you don't know me personally.And i bet you don't know David Finch either. So what is your basis of such an assessment? you should take it easy with all those stones brother.


I am just honest. If you can't take it- I dunno what to tell you. I just have an issue with the fact that if this image was indeed "swiped" without the artist's permission-Being that Finch is so known?

Do you really feel this would have been the first time we would heard about it now? I'm sure it would have been showcased (not to put down DWP) on a larger forum say a newsarama maybe?

And by you-? I think it would come from more credible places.

I doubt it.

Maybe it would be better (if you are SO offended or just shooting blanks here) to contact Mr. David Finch himself. (i'm sure it can't be too hard- he only works for Marvel)- Because otherwise i'm confused about what you are trying to do here?

ps- my Ladybird wants to know if you'd want to come over and work this out or some eggs and bacon? :)

M.

eDuke
11-12-2006, 11:04 AM
...I'd love to see some of these guys go on sabbatical no internet no reference and just draw from life.
Good point. Okay, here's a story to draw from life. A cast of characters are stranded on planet Pluto, there's a civilization built deep inside the ground with 17th century architecture, make them look as authentic as possible. Hop to it, no reference, draw from life. ;)

MARK A ROBINSON
11-12-2006, 11:38 AM
Good point. Okay, here's a story to draw from life. A cast of characters are stranded on planet Pluto, there's a civilization built deep inside the ground with 17th century architecture, make them look as authentic as possible. Hop to it, no reference, draw from life. ;)

Hold on...Let me get my light-box out.

;)

M.

Mcd91
11-12-2006, 11:59 AM
Hi,
I have to say I feel disappointed by David Finch. I always liked him, even back when he was doing the first Cyberforce Annual and was nothing more than a Silvestri clone. He got better by leaps and bounds and he was my favourite artist at Top Cow.

I would really like to know what made him do this. Do you think it's possible to contact him?

Best

Rob

Mr.Musgrave
11-12-2006, 12:09 PM
Tracing is not reference. It's tracing. And there's never a good enough excuse for stealing someone else's work. Deadlines are not an excuse. If you can't make your deadlines then you need re-evaluate your work habits.

Scribbly
11-12-2006, 12:18 PM
Yeahhh!!!!
Why you don't go to the next Comicon
and do lynch to this guy Finch!!!

YYYIIIIEEEEAAAAAH!!!!!!!

Mcd91
11-12-2006, 12:46 PM
Yeahhh!!!! Why you don't go to the next Comicon and do lynch to this guy Finch!!! YYYIIIIEEEEAAAAAH!!!!!!!

;)

No, don't get me wrong here. I am just interested in his motivation. I wonder why someone, being a talented artist, feels the need to copy so blatantly. I mean, I don't get it. Really I don't.
I believe that David Finch is very talented and it doesn't make sense for me. I mean, he could've done this himself, he's capable of doing it. Than why copy?

Best

Rob

cybershaw
11-12-2006, 01:32 PM
Ummm..

Maybe it would be better (if you are SO offended or just shooting blanks here) to contact Mr. David Finch himself. (i'm sure it can't be too hard- he only works for Marvel)- Because otherwise i'm confused about what you are trying to do here?

M.



that's really not the point of this message board. we are not looking to cure the ills nor police the comic world. The point is to have a discussion and dialog of why an artist would do such things no matter who it is or what the circumstance are. It's not always about getting answers or excuses from whomever the discussion is about, rather than to have a discussion about the overall issue of swiping or stealing. It's clear this was not an homage to another artists work rather than a carbon copy rip off of his work. I'm sure if Mr. Finch had a rebuttal he would make an excuse or give his reason but that doesn't mean that's what it is. That's the reason for the discussion. I don't need to ascertain his reason because that is only justified depending on your own ethics and Finch's ethics are in question so, his answer why he did this, would also be in question. The true question is why would anyone talented enough to draw from his own ideas feel the need to use someone else's work. Look at the picture, he didn't take inspiration from the original, he TOOK the original.

MARK A ROBINSON
11-12-2006, 01:35 PM
Tracing is not reference. It's tracing. And there's never a good enough excuse for stealing someone else's work. Deadlines are not an excuse. If you can't make your deadlines then you need re-evaluate your work habits.

Does anybody know how to trace a stick figure??

I keeeed i keeeed.

You guys crack me up. I expect to see all of your @ the New York Con with torches in hand attempting to set fire to all of the tracers of the world.

cmon. it's comic books!

I think it's great you all are so passionate about this.Either way-I think the deal is that Finch is not here to defend himself. I also feel that when i'm on these boards alot of you talk the talk but really can't walk the walk. Myself included...

I have no idea why you'd want to get up here on your soapbox and start slinging stones at a guy that about 2 months ago ( MOON KNIGHT) were talking nothing but good things about him.

Now you all seek to bury the guy for something that was like 5 years ago.

weird.

Someone mentioned what was the motivation- i think that's more important- it could have been an homage piece approved by the other artist- you don't really know. Once agian, check your facts please.

I just have a problem with people who have something to say and hide behind a fake name internet site and don't go straight to the source.

And before all of you start giving your real names and home phone numbers here-save it and send it to David Finch. Because he is the impetus of this thread.

And Mr. Musgrave- Tracing can be reference- especially when i am tracing myself.

i.e.- duplicate panels.

i.e- static shots.

i.e- backgrounds.

I could go on- but if you want some further tips you could always PM me- i'd be happy to help you out.

Best,

Mark A. Robinson
chairman of the Don't Lynch Finch Foundation

Soulless MW
11-12-2006, 02:07 PM
:cool: I had somthing to say, but why? When You all know better than me and the next guy. I'll just say, I like Finch. And what ever reason he had for doing this. Was one he thought was worth it. Now go live life. And leave the puppys alone.

Phatman
11-12-2006, 02:35 PM
Someone mentioned what was the motivation- i think that's more important- it could have been an homage piece approved by the other artist- you don't really know. Once agian, check your facts please.

I just have a problem with people who have something to say and hide behind a fake name internet site and don't go straight to the source.

And Mr. Musgrave- Tracing can be reference- especially when i am tracing myself.


Mark:

1) In this case, the art was not a homage piece, it was an exact copy of another artist's rendering. I agree, tracing can be a tool, but in this case it was used to steal an image created by another artist, sell it to a publisher and not credit the original source. Sorry, but that is incredibly unprofessional, unethical and probably illegal.

2) I agree that Finch is incredibly talented and I love his more recent work. This doesn't excuse theft-even if it's five years ago. It isn't about skill or talent, it's about respect for other artists and the medium.

3) There is really no reason to confront Finch on this. I have a problem with it, but what am I going to do? Yell at him at a con? Embarass him in a panel? I stopped buying Land's stuff a long time ago for stealing and I'll do the same if Finch does this anymore. That's my only recourse.

4) Tracing and reference are two different things. I don't care if an artist is using tracing as a method as long as they credit sources or use their own source material (own art or photos). I think the final product is usually inferior, but that is a matter of taste, not ethics. Reference is when you look to or refer to something to create your art-a completely seperate method from tracing. There is a difference-you and most of the rest of the people around here know exactlly what the difference is.

If people where just honest about what they are doing, there would be a lot less arguements around concerning this issue.

Mr.Musgrave
11-12-2006, 02:45 PM
You know, and this isn't directed at Phatman...it just happens to be the post underneath his, but it's damned near impossible to have an artistic discussion on this site. You have a half dozen people who know what they are talking about and six dozen idiots who can't even grasp simple artistic concepts. It's amazing.

Biofungus
11-12-2006, 03:17 PM
Well, I want to say for this particular case:

Who's to say that BOTH artists didn't reference some older image/photograph? It looks like something I've seen before, and *not* from a drawing, but an actual photograph (from WWII I believe. Not that the guy in question was in the war, but rather something seen in a rare bit of peace in "rural" life. I could be mistaken though, but I am fairly certain I've seen something extremely similar in an old photograph).

Mr.Musgrave
11-12-2006, 03:20 PM
That is a huge stretch. A HUGE stretch.

Scribbly
11-12-2006, 03:35 PM
The situation that surprise me the most here, is that besides those or another artist gaffes, is the fact that the FANS seems to enjoy destroy them.
No consideration,no mercy not even any kind of respect for the artist,wherever their names are.
Just plain criticism. Judgmental and condenatory.
The most high the artist go, he most low he must to be shutted down, tied by his feet and dragged along the arena before use them to feed the lions.
Maybe I'm wrong but for me a "fan" is a supporter, an admirer, someone who's going to cheer up his artist and follow him under any circunstances.
Giving back to the artist recognition and gratitude in pay for the goddies the artist can bring to us through his constant effort.
A FAN is the guy/girl WHO EXPEND his money to watch, see and apreciate what the artist has done.
Suporting the artist career with his pocket.
And I don't think critics are doing that.
They don't put a penny for the artist fortune, but are waiting to see the guy fall to quickly jump over and pull out his eyes.
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn for those kind of fan.

Mr.Musgrave
11-12-2006, 03:43 PM
Maybe, you yammering lunatic, we're a bunch of artists and creators who are judgemental of known theives and tracers. We're not just comic book fans, we're fucking artits. And not all artists are so willing to sell our ethics down the goddam river.

Scribbly
11-12-2006, 03:50 PM
Frankly, my dear....

Mr.Musgrave
11-12-2006, 03:50 PM
Idiot.

Edit: Scratch that. Fanboy idiot.