Rob Liefeld is the modern day equivalent of JACK KIRBY

[FreLL]

Interesting column by Robert Kirkman in Marvel Spotlight. If you missed it, this site has a scan of it:
http://popcultureshock.com/index.php?p=40486&page=5

[kdmelrose]

And Chuck Austen is the modern-day Stan Lee!

:w00t:

[secondrater]

yikes. that's all I can say.

[Biofungus]

I've lost just about all respect for Kirkman. And it's not that I totally disagree about his comparisons 'tween Kirby's and Liefelds art style, either. It's a] the "adding characters" comment (Kirby's creations were original, almost ALL of Liefelds are ripoffs of existing characters. "Bloodwulf"? Please. Who gives a rats ass about the name, when everything else about the character screams "Lobo!"). He also fails to mention how Liefeld is a pariah for screwing over other artists, whereas Kirby didn't (at least, not so outright, that I'm aware of).

Back to the comment about "energy on the page" and "lack of understanding of anatomy", like I said, I don't disagree with him on that, but there are a LOT of artists who fit that bill as well.

Now, unless Kirkman comes out saying he wrote that sarcastically, as a joke...

[The-Spirit]

Blasphemy.

[Nitecrawlah2]

I can't fault the guy for being a fan of Liefeld and digging his work. I just can't see the legitimacy of an arguement where Liefeld is considered to be like Kirby. Perhaps, and only in this case, where both artists draw such heated attention, either for or against them.

[HaphazardJoy]

Hey now, you know you can't respect someone who doesn't have the same opinion as you, it's in the rule book.
:sure:

Not a Liefeld fan, but I see some of what Kirkman's talking about. I can get the excitement on the page, but personally I prefer well composed pages over whiz-bang action and dramatic poses oozing out of the book.

[protonik]

I've lost just about all respect for Kirkman. And it's not that I totally disagree about his comparisons 'tween Kirby's and Liefelds art style, either. It's a] the "adding characters" comment (Kirby's creations were original, almost ALL of Liefelds are ripoffs of existing characters. "Bloodwulf"? Please. Who gives a rats ass about the name, when everything else about the character screams "Lobo!"). He also fails to mention how Liefeld is a pariah for screwing over other artists, whereas Kirby didn't (at least, not so outright, that I'm aware of).

Back to the comment about "energy on the page" and "lack of understanding of anatomy", like I said, I don't disagree with him on that, but there are a LOT of artists who fit that bill as well.

Now, unless Kirkman comes out saying he wrote that sarcastically, as a joke...

Kirby was HARDLY original. WHat made Kirby was that he was prolific and his takes on concepts were interesting. Kamandi wasn't original, it was Planet of the Apes taken to an extreme point. Captain America was ripped off from the Shield. Thor's origin came from a Charlton Comic drawn by Steve Ditko. Many stories from both the Prisoner and Star Trek were used in later issues of the Fantastic Four. The Eternals was taken from Van Daniken's CHariots of the Gods. Mr. Fantastic? Plastic man. I could go on and on and I am a Kirby FANATIC but to say everything Kirby did was original or that he was original is bull. Kirby was prolific in what he created and innovative with the concepts. Gimme ONE example of a Kirby character I can't trace back to something else and I'll take back what I've said but the fact is you can't and using Black Panther? HA. Typical pulp jungle king with superhero trappings. What Kirby did was introduce popular concepts to comics that existed in other media.

Liefeld's characters are hardly rip offs, at least not anymore so than Moore, Ellis, Millar etc have created rip offs. Sure, Supreme was Superman in powers but I don't think Superman thought he was god and killed people and asked questions later. Glory, ROman and Agent America were OBVIOUS and intentionally OBVIOUS. Rob never said they were original in concept, but they are unique in his interpretations of the concepts and directions he wanted to take the characters.

[The Scribe]

:blink: :confused: :eek:

I like Liefeld, but to compare him to Kirby is nuts.

I might however, compare Kirby and Larsen. :har:

[theflash]

Gimme ONE example of a Kirby character I can't trace back to something else and I'll take back what I've said

Silver Surfer

[theflash]

and allow me to set the record straight for those of you buying into this crap. Kirby and Liefeld are not even in the same league. Kirby's art has what's known as a style. it's not the only style he knew, it was the style he preferred. i haven't seen anything from Rob to indicate the same is true for him. i don't hate him or his stuff, but Rob is not now, nor primed to be Jack Kirby or even the Jack Kirby of his day. Kirby was the King even in the 70s when Neal Adams was the top of the heap.

sounds to me like someone is trying pretty hard to justify a lot of really shit books he bought back in the 90s.

[protonik]

Silver Surfer

Gabriel the Archangel of the Lord, he acted as a Herald of Jesus, bringing tidings of his coming.

[Biofungus]

Not even close. Good try though.

Add "New Gods" to that original characters list, btw.

[ponyrl]

Interesting column by Robert Kirkman in Marvel Spotlight. If you missed it, this site has a scan of it:
http://popcultureshock.com/index.php?p=40486&page=5
WFT? :huh:

[protonik]

Again, the New Gods were not "original". You are basing your assertions on the visuals of the characters. Kirby when asked about the inspiration for the Silver Surfer cited both the surfers he'd watch at the beach and angels like Gabriel. As far as the New Gods... ANY mythological cycle. It was heavily inspired by Wagner's operas and the characters filled roles similar to the old gods of Norse mythology and even Judaeochristian myths. Highfather was Moses. Orion the hunter and God of War. Lightray was the light of the sun. Darkseid was just another form of Satan. Desaad was the Marquis De Sade transformed into a god of pain and torture etc. No. Not original, inspired? yes. Original. No. I'm a HUGE Kirby fan. I read anything I can about him and my memory is quite clear on the things he said about what inspired him in his characters and ideas. Most of them have some basis in the Bible like Orion's personality being very similar to Sampson, that arrogant anger. His ugliness being masked by mother box in a beautiful form. COmmon themes explored in mythology.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Kirkman was being painfully sarcastic in that article. If Kirby hadn't taken all the good names in the 60's maybe Liefeld wouldn't have to use "Bloodwulf?" Yeah, there's no way that's a serious statement.

And Protonik makes me laugh. But he makes us all laugh, doesn't he? And not in a good way.

[The-Spirit]

Kirby was HARDLY original.
Boy's

Lets take 'im out back and STRING 'IM UP!

[The Scribe]

Add "New Gods" to that original characters list, btw.

What about, The Externals, Mr. Miracle, Fantastic Four, The Demon, Ghost Rider, Black Panther, and Dr. Doom?


http://kirbymuseum.org/

[ponyrl]

Boy's

Lets take 'im out back and STRING 'IM UP!
I's got the tar an' featha's boys. Who's got teh truck and the beers!

YEEE----HAAAAAAAA!

:laugh:

[Mr.Musgrave]

Spirit, anyone who claims Kirby was unoriginal while Rob Liefeld (a known thief, plagiarist, and tracer) IS, doesn't deserve the effort.

[protonik]

Kirby's style was not something he preferred and I think Mark Evanier would agree with me. One of the criticisms that Kirby regularly had leveled against him was how he drew claws, the little square nibs on the end of his monsters fingers. He always said it was how HE saw them and he drew what he saw. Kirby's style developed not as a conscious development. The man used to have a GORGEOUS Alex Raymond style but it didn't have the life Alex Raymond's artwork had. Kirby's style developed because of the deadlines he was under in the early 60s pencilling most of Marvel's books and laying out another chunk of them whenever someone needed a hand or Stan wanted him to do examples. Kirby developed an expedient style as a result that we know as his peak style. Sure some elements are a conscious choice but once he adopted them they became so integral to his way of drawing. He DEFINITELY did NOT have multiple styles to choose from, that was a result of the inkers. Underneath that all those pages look the same.

[The-Spirit]

Spirit, anyone who claims Kirby was unoriginal while Rob Liefeld (a known thief, plagiarist, and tracer) IS, doesn't deserve the effort.http://www.spiritrider-wagontrain.com/photos/lynching.jpg


Awww Crap you're right.

Dang it you're right.

Let 'em go boy's.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Obviously what you know about Kirby wouldn't fill a thimble.

Edit: Damn, Spirit posted right before I did.

[The-Spirit]

Kirby's style was not something he preferred and I think Mark Evanier would agree with me. One of the criticisms that Kirby regularly had leveled against him was how he drew claws, the little square nibs on the end of his monsters fingers. He always said it was how HE saw them and he drew what he saw. Kirby's style developed not as a conscious development. The man used to have a GORGEOUS Alex Raymond style but it didn't have the life Alex Raymond's artwork had. Kirby's style developed because of the deadlines he was under in the early 60s pencilling most of Marvel's books and laying out another chunk of them whenever someone needed a hand or Stan wanted him to do examples. Kirby developed an expedient style as a result that we know as his peak style. Sure some elements are a conscious choice but once he adopted them they became so integral to his way of drawing. He DEFINITELY did NOT have multiple styles to choose from, that was a result of the inkers. Underneath that all those pages look the same.
If you were in prison...you'd be on the bottom of the butt rape right now.

[protonik]

What about, The Externals, Mr. Miracle, Fantastic Four, The Demon, Ghost Rider, Black Panther, and Dr. Doom?


http://kirbymuseum.org/


The Eternals are based on Van Daniken AND Greek myth... isn't it obvious? Mr. Miracle was based on escape artists and stage magicians, especially Jim STeranko. Fantastic FOur? PLease. The Demon was another variation on the Dr. Jekkyl and Mr. Hyde formula he used so much. Kirby didn't create Ghost Rider and aside from that the Ghost Rider is based on western tales of ghostly horsemen, except its a motorcycle, seeking revenge in the old west. Black Panther I already mentioned. Dr. Doom? Oh please. Scarred villain? Armour? C'mon.

[protonik]

Spirit, anyone who claims Kirby was unoriginal while Rob Liefeld (a known thief, plagiarist, and tracer) IS, doesn't deserve the effort.


LOL. Here, let me open my mouth so you can put more words in it Steve. :laugh: I said no such thing. You want to talk thieves and tracers and plagiarists let's open a Greg Land thread.

[Biofungus]

Again, the New Gods were not "original". You are basing your assertions on the visuals of the characters. Kirby when asked about the inspiration for the Silver Surfer cited both the surfers he'd watch at the beach and angels like Gabriel. As far as the New Gods... ANY mythological cycle. It was heavily inspired by Wagner's operas and the characters filled roles similar to the old gods of Norse mythology and even Judaeochristian myths. Highfather was Moses. Orion the hunter and God of War. Lightray was the light of the sun. Darkseid was just another form of Satan. Desaad was the Marquis De Sade transformed into a god of pain and torture etc. No. Not original, inspired? yes. Original. No. I'm a HUGE Kirby fan. I read anything I can about him and my memory is quite clear on the things he said about what inspired him in his characters and ideas. Most of them have some basis in the Bible like Orion's personality being very similar to Sampson, that arrogant anger. His ugliness being masked by mother box in a beautiful form. COmmon themes explored in mythology.
Inspiration does not denote lack of originality.

[protonik]

Obviously what you know about Kirby wouldn't fill a thimble.

Edit: Damn, Spirit posted right before I did.

No, I'm just not the blind Kirby fan. I bet you were one of those guys who 12 years ago was making fun of Kirby and didn't understand why so many people were praising him weren't you? SO many people are blind to Kirby's legacy in both directions. You want to call Liefeld a thief and plagiarist. The same applies to Kirby then because he was a story stealin', panel swipin', son of a gun!!

Kirby was the king but he is credited with FAR, FAR more than he actually did. Kirby was great, he did a hell of a lot. He was innovative. Hell, I cried for two days when he died. I pour over his material on a damn near daily basis and read and watch as much about him as I can but I'm not gonna wear blinders and say he was original especially when he says EXACTLY what his inspirations are fro various characters and ideas.

Hell, let's go back to the Silver Surfer... he was the Herald of Galactus... the basic plot he got from Stan was what? Make them fight god.

[protonik]

Inspiration does not denote lack of originality.

You are mistaking originality for innovation. Was Star Wars original? No and most people don't claim it is. It is an innovative take on another concept.

[The-Spirit]

By this guys standard no characters are original.

I mean Superman was based on Moses or something right?

Jack Kirby is responsible for comics "Superhero comics in particular" being what they are today, I don't know if there was anyone to take his place if he weren't around. I know one thing many of the characters he created have stood the test of time because of their originality.

I think this guy just wants to make a name for himself. He knows insulting Kirby is like peeing on your new carpet.

Leave him alone.

[protonik]

Dude, I'm not insulting Kirby. Nowhere did I insult Kirby. And yes, there are no original ideas or concepts out there but innovative takes on those concepts. Even Superman wasn't all that original, it was Philip Wylie's Gladiator with elements of Doc Savage! Kirby is my all time favourite artist, I'm just realistic about his work and don't put mythological attributes on him because they aren't true. You're right, without Kirby comics wouldn't be what they are today and there prolly isn't anyone to have taken his place but that doesn't make him original, it means he was prolific and innovative and he helped to create ideas that resonated with the audience. Here we can say this: the Silver Surfer was an original take on the concept of the Angel as Herald but NO WAY can you say the SIlver Surfer is an original concept. You simply can't. You can't say that about ANY of his characters and ideas he put into comic book form and to think you can is to simply mythologize Kirby. :slap:

[The Scribe]

The Eternals are based on Van Daniken AND Greek myth... isn't it obvious? Mr. Miracle was based on escape artists and stage magicians, especially Jim STeranko. Fantastic FOur? PLease. The Demon was another variation on the Dr. Jekkyl and Mr. Hyde formula he used so much. Kirby didn't create Ghost Rider and aside from that the Ghost Rider is based on western tales of ghostly horsemen, except its a motorcycle, seeking revenge in the old west. Black Panther I already mentioned. Dr. Doom? Oh please. Scarred villain? Armour? C'mon.


Now I have to take you outside and properly beat you.

:har: :slap:

[protonik]

I've also been on here off and on for about 3 years, I just lurk a lot.

[Biofungus]

You are mistaking originality for innovation. Was Star Wars original? No and most people don't claim it is. It is an innovative take on another concept.
Dude, you're the one saying Kirby combined a california surfer dude with Gabriel, the biblical Archangel and came up with Silver Surfer.

If that isn't originality AND innovation, I don't know what is :rolleyes:

[protonik]

Dude, you're the one saying Kirby combined a california surfer dude with Gabriel, the biblical Archangel and came up with Silver Surfer.

If that isn't originality AND innovation, I don't know what is :rolleyes:

Oy, English is my second language and I am better at it than you are...

[Mr.Musgrave]

No, I'm just not the blind Kirby fan. I bet you were one of those guys who 12 years ago was making fun of Kirby and didn't understand why so many people were praising him weren't you?

I've been studying the art and life of Kirby since I was 10 years old. So catch fire and die, dickfor.

[Biofungus]

For the record, Liefeld was/is neither original NOR innovative. He spent everything he has on Cable, and that was it. He's not very creative either.

I think his greatest contribution to comics is more along the lines of creators rights. His greatest disservice to comics was, well... his comics :)

Kirby advanced comics as a storytelling medium.

Liefeld only altered the working conditions, not the medium itself.

[protonik]

Crossing the line again Musgrave? Still haven't grown up yet have you?

[kdmelrose]

I think his greatest contribution to comics is more along the lines of creators rights.

How so?

[Mr.Musgrave]

Crossing the line again Musgrave? Still haven't grown up yet have you?


You crossed the line when you accused me of being a Kirby bandwagoner. You were always one of the worst members of this board and I see your idiocy hasn't improved with age. Go read your precious tracer's comics. They're about your speed.

[Biofungus]

How so?
Well, before Liefeld and Image, creator owned/produced comics were more niche, less mainstream.

[Biofungus]

Oy, English is my second language and I am better at it than you are...
Um, no. You're now slinging groundless insults at me. Don't accuse Musgrave of something you yourself did a couple of posts before ;)

[protonik]

For the record, Liefeld was/is neither original NOR innovative. He spent everything he has on Cable, and that was it. He's not very creative either.

I think his greatest contribution to comics is more along the lines of creators rights. His greatest disservice to comics was, well... his comics :)

Deadpool? You forgot Deadpool? He had some great unique takes actually.

Youngblood was unique because it explored the concept of superheroes as celebrities. The FF had touched on it and Booster Gold was supposed to be about it but the way Rob did it laid the groundwork for the Ultimates. Bloodstrike? C'mon, that was a unique concept, Project Born again was very intriguing. Liefeld's comics had the problem that he didn't have talented enough writers to explore the concepts he wanted and we got generic action comics with generic personalities. When he DID get the talent to write the books he let them get turned into generic versions like SUpreme as Superman, Youngblood as Teen Titans etc.

The tag by the way is a bit of a joke. I am a Liefeld fan, don't get me wrong, it just pisses off the people I don't like when they see it.

Liefeld DID help to change the way the artwork was approached also, the Image style was defined by Liefeld, Lee and McFarlane and is a staple, sad as that may be, of the industry.

Its why guys like Lieber, Sprouse, Kirby, Byrne, Mignola and Ditko top my list of influences. I see one more useless anchor panel I'm gonna shoot myself.

[protonik]

You crossed the line when you accused me of being a Kirby bandwagoner. You were always one of the worst members of this board and I see your idiocy hasn't improved with age. Go read your precious tracer's comics. They're about your speed.

I was hardly one of the worst members of this board just because I despised you. Keep insulting me and see where it gets ya.

[Biofungus]

Deadpool is "what if spiderman became a mercenary". Most of the traits that define Deadpool were added by writers long after Liefeld left Marvel.

[protonik]

Um, no. You're now slinging groundless insults at me. Don't accuse Musgrave of something you yourself did a couple of posts before ;)

I think it was obvious mine was meant to be a joke though, he's being an asshole.

[The-Spirit]

Liefeld's comics had the problem that he didn't have talent.
Well said.

[protonik]

Deadpool is "what if spiderman became a mercenary". Most of the traits that define Deadpool were added by writers long after Liefeld left Marvel.

And there you just confirmed my arguement about Kirby...

[Mr.Musgrave]

And there you just confirmed my arguement about Kirby...


No, what he was doing was pointing out how ass backwards and utterly wrong your "argument" is.

You were right about one thing though. You are a joke.

[protonik]

Steve, go away.

[protonik]

Ohhhh, it got quiet... where did Steve go?

[Biofungus]

The tag by the way is a bit of a joke. I am a Liefeld fan, don't get me wrong, it just pisses off the people I don't like when they see it.

I don't care how you feel about Liefeld. But your arguments about Kirby really aren't holding much water. You're pointing to points of *inspiration* for many of Kirby's characters, but when you compare the inspiration with the end results in most of his creations, they are still quite a bit far apart.

I repeat: Inspiration does NOT denote lack of originality.

[Biofungus]

I think it was obvious mine was meant to be a joke though, he's being an asshole.
So you were insulting me on the grounds that Musgrave was being an asshole?

[protonik]

I don't care how you feel about Liefeld. But your arguments about Kirby really aren't holding much water. You're pointing to points of *inspiration* for many of Kirby's characters, but when you compare the inspiration with the end results in most of his creations, they are still quite a bit far apart.

I repeat: Inspiration does NOT denote lack of originality.

I agree biofungus, my point is that Kirby gets a lot of credit for being "original" in his characters when they aren't. He has provided innovative takes on classic concepts. Being original and possessing originality isn't the same, if that makes sense. Original implies TO ME, the idea that the origin of something has no basis in anything that has gone on before. Originality implies TO ME the ability to take old ideas and spin them in unique manners. Does that make sense?

[protonik]

So you were insulting me on the grounds that Musgrave was being an asshole?

No, I wasn't meaning to insult you, I was being silly. I speak English, it isn't my second language. It was meant to be like a ribbing. My bad if it didn't come across that way.

[Mr.Musgrave]

So you were insulting me on the grounds that Musgrave was being an asshole?


And I was only insulting him on the grounds that he insulted me first. So it all loops around to Protonik being a waste of space.

[Biofungus]

Dude, I'm not insulting Kirby. Nowhere did I insult Kirby. And yes, there are no original ideas or concepts out there but innovative takes on those concepts. Even Superman wasn't all that original, it was Philip Wylie's Gladiator with elements of Doc Savage! Kirby is my all time favourite artist, I'm just realistic about his work and don't put mythological attributes on him because they aren't true. You're right, without Kirby comics wouldn't be what they are today and there prolly isn't anyone to have taken his place but that doesn't make him original, it means he was prolific and innovative and he helped to create ideas that resonated with the audience. Here we can say this: the Silver Surfer was an original take on the concept of the Angel as Herald but NO WAY can you say the SIlver Surfer is an original concept. You simply can't. You can't say that about ANY of his characters and ideas he put into comic book form and to think you can is to simply mythologize Kirby. :slap:
I'm not even a fan of Kirby, and I even own most of those 90's Liefeld comics, but even I'm aware of the differences in their individual contributions to the comics medium.

[protonik]

I'm not even a fan of Kirby, and I even own most of those 90's Liefeld comics, but even I'm aware of the differences in their individual contributions to the comics medium.

Er. I wasn't comparing them. I see where people get it and in some ways I agree, both master the action scene and both have been maligned in their careers after a period of insane popularity and both have created hundreds, if not thousands, of characters but Rob isn't the new Kirby. Only two people come close, Byrne for his sheer OUTPUT of pages and Larsen for his unbridled creativity. Well, I take that back, one person comes close: Grant Morrison.

[The Scribe]

I agree biofungus, my point is that Kirby gets a lot of credit for being "original" in his characters when they aren't. He has provided innovative takes on classic concepts. Being original and possessing originality isn't the same, if that makes sense. Original implies TO ME, the idea that the origin of something has no basis in anything that has gone on before. Originality implies TO ME the ability to take old ideas and spin them in unique manners. Does that make sense?


I don't believe Bio was saying that.

So, what characters have you created?

What characters do you see as entirely original?

Deadpool, so I heard on this board, was stolen from someone who sent Liefeld one of their characters, a ninja in a purple costume.

So, why aren't the Fantastic Four original, you need to elaborate.

[Biofungus]

I agree biofungus, my point is that Kirby gets a lot of credit for being "original" in his characters when they aren't. He has provided innovative takes on classic concepts. Being original and possessing originality isn't the same, if that makes sense. Original implies TO ME, the idea that the origin of something has no basis in anything that has gone on before. Originality implies TO ME the ability to take old ideas and spin them in unique manners. Does that make sense?
By this logic, nothing was ever created past Genesis 1:1, it was all just "innovative rearrangements" of what existed before. All original concepts ended about the time humans learned to write things down. Everything after that has simply been a slightly different take on existing concepts.

I can accept that we all have our own opinions, but I have to say: if that is your definition of originality, it's an extremely narrow worldview.

[protonik]

I don't believe Bio was saying that.

So, what characters have you created?

What characters do you see as entirely original?

Deadpool, so I heard on this board, was stolen from someone who sent Liefeld one of their characters, a ninja in a purple costume.

So, why aren't the Fantastic Four original, you need to elaborate.

I know he wasn't saying that, that was what I was trying to say...

I've created quite a few characters, unpublished though. LOL. None of them are original and I don't intend them to be. They are my takes on older concepts.

I don't really see anything as entirely original. Unique in the way that they explore certain archetypes but not original.

There are a lot of myths about Liefeld's career that aren't true.

The Fantastic Four. Ok, the HUman Torch... duh. Mr. Fantastic? Plastic Man mixed with the typical 50s scientist archetype. Invisible Woman (remember, she originally had to wear a mask etc to be seen) is the Invisible Man. The Thing... misunderstood monster. As far as coming together as a team... Doc Savage and his crew, Ham, Monk etc. and of course Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown.

[Biofungus]

Er. I wasn't comparing them. I see where people get it and in some ways I agree, both master the action scene and both have been maligned in their careers after a period of insane popularity and both have created hundreds, if not thousands, of characters but Rob isn't the new Kirby. Only two people come close, Byrne for his sheer OUTPUT of pages and Larsen for his unbridled creativity. Well, I take that back, one person comes close: Grant Morrison.
Don't even get me started on Morrison... :rolleyes:

And it's not a comparitive issue. As I stated, their "individual contributions to the comics medium". You are underplaying Kirby's particular contributions via a very, very narrow definition of the word, "original".

[The-Spirit]

Invisible Woman (remember, she originally had to wear a mask etc to be seen) is the Invisible Man. You need to post proof of that. I've never seen that and I've got every Kirby FF in either original or reprint.

[The-Spirit]

The Fantastic Four. Ok, the Human Torch... duh. Mr. Fantastic? Plastic Man mixed with the typical 50s scientist archetype. Invisible Woman (remember, she originally had to wear a mask etc to be seen) is the Invisible Man. The Thing... misunderstood monster. As far as coming together as a team... Doc Savage and his crew, Ham, Monk etc. and of course Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown.
So Kirby stole from....Himself!

[protonik]

I'm sort of like Campbell, I see things and understand them by their archetypes. I have studied the Kabbalah for 13 years now and it has kind of trained me to think in that way Bio-fungus. I reduce things to their common denominators which is why I see "original" and "innovative". Now there are original things like Genesis P. Orridge and the origination of industrial music because it wasn't a mix of previously existing influences but experiments in soundscapes to generate new types of music. I think the word "original" is over used like when people see a Goth kid in a small town they call him "original" when we all know goth isn't unique or original. See what I mean?

[theflash]

By this logic, nothing was ever created past Genesis 1:1, it was all just "innovative rearrangements" of what existed before. All original concepts ended about the time humans learned to write things down. Everything after that has simply been a slightly different take on existing concepts.

I can accept that we all have our own opinions, but I have to say: if that is your definition of originality, it's an extremely narrow worldview.


THANK YOU! Well said Bio!

[The Scribe]

I'm sort of like Campbell, I see things and understand them by their archetypes. I have studied the Kabbalah for 13 years now and it has kind of trained me to think in that way Bio-fungus. I reduce things to their common denominators which is why I see "original" and "innovative". Now there are original things like Genesis P. Orridge and the origination of industrial music because it wasn't a mix of previously existing influences but experiments in soundscapes to generate new types of music. I think the word "original" is over used like when people see a Goth kid in a small town they call him "original" when we all know goth isn't unique or original. See what I mean?

You study Kabbalah!? It has fried your brain like it did to Madonna, she was already there, though. :har: :p

[The Scribe]

So Kirby stole from....Himself!

I don't see how Kirby could have done that. :blink:

See why they call him the KING. :har: ;)

[protonik]

You need to post proof of that. I've never seen that and I've got every Kirby FF in either original or reprint.

It was in the original plot that Stan Lee wrote. There used to be a little hardcover book that reprinted that plot with the character descriptions like originally it would HURT Reed to stretch and Johnny couldn't fly or hurl fireballs IN THE PLOT. I don't have the book anymore and I do not know if it is online but I got it at library before I moved to where I live now. I can't remember the name of the book but there was a series of them, one for Captain America that reprinted the Byrne/Stern version of the origin and an Englehart story, the FF, Hulk and Spider-man and they were done in 1979 I think.

[protonik]

So Kirby stole from....Himself!

Ermm no because CHallengers was rooted in the pulp tradition.

[theflash]

The Fantastic Four. Ok, the HUman Torch... duh. Mr. Fantastic? Plastic Man mixed with the typical 50s scientist archetype. Invisible Woman (remember, she originally had to wear a mask etc to be seen) is the Invisible Man. The Thing... misunderstood monster. As far as coming together as a team... Doc Savage and his crew, Ham, Monk etc. and of course Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown.

this is almost getting funny. the invisible girl did not wear a mask when the first FF came out. she may have taken a mask at some point that i missed, but she was bare faced when she got her powers and got invisible just fine.

and i still say Silver Surfer is the ONE example you originally asked for. nowhere in comics (which is the operative here since we're on a comics website talking about comic creators) will you find anything you can even remotely say was the original basis for Silver Surfer. Kirby may or may not have been inspired by outside influences to bring them together for Norrin Radd, but he damn sure didn't rip off anyone else's comic character for the Surfer. Liefeld on the other hand, has, and does. so get retracting. you have tread all the water you have to tread and now it's time to give it up.

[protonik]

You study Kabbalah!? It has fried your brain like it did to Madonna, she was already there, though. :har: :p

HA ha. Actually it has made me sharper. The Kabbalah I study and what she studies are two different things. I don't study it as Jewish mysticism but as a series of attributions and concepts onto which I can organize things for easier access in my brain through a series of correspondences.

Here though, I'm going to HALF concede because it is turning into a circular arguement... Kirby had some "original" ideas in the broadest sense of the word as opposed to the actual definition.

[carriertone]

[QUOTE=protonik]Now there are original things like Genesis P. Orridge and the origination of industrial music because it wasn't a mix of previously existing influences but experiments in soundscapes to generate new types of music. QUOTE]

Actually, industrial music was highly inspired by Musique Concrete and Krautrock, amongst many other things. Genesis was, and still is, a complete original though.

I don't like or dislike Liefeld, but I have to say that Kirby was way more original and groundbreaking. I agree with some of what you have to say Protonik, but a lot of your argument is really reaching for a point. So Kirby based Mister Miracle on escape artists, Liefeld ripped off Bloodwulf from Lobo. See the difference? Kirby's ideas may not all have been original, but at least some of them were. Can we say the same for Liefeld? The only reason any of his characters are anything other than cardboard cut-outs is due to some amazing writers taking his concepts and giving them new life.

I genuinely liked Liefeld's run on Hawk and Dove back in the day though. He actually drew feet back then. Crazy, huh?

- C

[Biofungus]

Theflash brings up another good point.

All the examples you're talking about of where Kirby got his ideas from all came from OUTSIDE the comics medium, and many of them are quite old. Liefeld's "ideas" are directly ripped (for the most part) from within the comics medium.

Kirby = comparing apples to watermelons
Liefeld = comparing oranges to oranges

[protonik]

this is almost getting funny. the invisible girl did not wear a mask when the first FF came out. she may have taken a mask at some point that i missed, but she was bare faced when she got her powers and got invisible just fine.

and i still say Silver Surfer is the ONE example you originally asked for. nowhere in comics (which is the operative here since we're on a comics website talking about comic creators) will you find anything you can even remotely say was the original basis for Silver Surfer. Kirby may or may not have been inspired by outside influences to bring them together for Norrin Radd, but he damn sure didn't rip off anyone else's comic character for the Surfer. Liefeld on the other hand, has, and does. so get retracting. you have tread all the water you have to tread and now it's time to give it up.

If you REALLY want to get technical, all Kirby created for the Surfer was a visual, Stan Lee created a persona, origin, etc for the Surfer. But no, Kirby himself said that the SUrfer was based on angels. I didn't mean to imply it was in the first issue but it was in the original plot. Notice that Johnny was FLYING in the first issue of the FF as well and that it didn't hurt Reed to stretch and change shape.

[protonik]

Theflash brings up another good point.

All the examples you're talking about of where Kirby got his ideas from all came from OUTSIDE the comics medium, and many of them are quite old. Liefeld's "ideas" are directly ripped (for the most part) from within the comics medium.

Kirby = comparing apples to watermelons
Liefeld = comparing oranges to oranges

I agree but I don't. The arguement is that Kirby is original. Well, if I take Star Wars and create my own spin and put it in a comic book does that make it original? Was Nick Fury AGent of Shield original?

[Biofungus]

HA ha. Actually it has made me sharper. The Kabbalah I study and what she studies are two different things. I don't study it as Jewish mysticism but as a series of attributions and concepts onto which I can organize things for easier access in my brain through a series of correspondences.


On a totally unrelated note, why does the Kaballah (at least, when you describe it this way), sound an awful lot like "Dianetics"? :confused:

[dlwdirector]

O.K., as an artist myself, who grew up on a steady diet of John Byne, John Romita(& Jr), Bob Layton, and Jim Shooter led Marvel comics I can honestly say I DON'T dig Kirby too much.

BUT, I believe you can call him 'original' because he was the one of , if not the first, to use a lot of these biblical, mythological characters with a superhero twist. Like someone said earlier, taking Grabrile and a surfer dude and combining those two? That's pretty damn original! WHO THE HELL WOULD THINK OF THAT TODAY? The angel Gabriel had been around for thousands of years. No one else thought of using him as a hero basis, so there was an 'original' twist. Give the man some credit.

IMO, Kirby's legacy is his in your face, bombastic style of 'STORYTELLING.' Whenever I feel the ugly head of 'artsit block' creeping in, I can look at old Kiry reprints and I brain kicks into high gear and my imagination runs wild.

Kirby's not my 'COMIC GOD,' but he's in the panthion.

As for LIEFELD...HE JUST SUCKS. I first heard the Liefeld/Kirby connection...FROM LIEFELD, at a con years ago, pre-IMAGE implosion. Let's make it clear...Liefeld sucks, and he's lazy. Big giant two page spreads showing somwone getting punched (which includes no backgrounds) isn't 'extreme' it's lazy!! Even Kirbys style used 'proportions.' He's women looked like women, his men like men (men with football gear on). Liefelds characters have one expression...pure constipation!

His characters? It's one thing to do a homage to characters or consepts, but please...Youngblood (avengers) extreme youngblood (west coast avenebers), glory (wonder woman) etc, etc. We could go on for days.

The word LEGEND and Liefeld will never...EVER, EVER, EVER, go hand in hand. They can't. Immposible. Pure Heresy.

My 2cents.

Don

[The-Spirit]

You need to post proof of that. I've never seen that and I've got every Kirby FF in either original or reprint.It was in the original plot that Stan Lee wrote.

There used to be a little hardcover book that reprinted that plot with the character descriptions like originally it would HURT Reed to stretch and Johnny couldn't fly or hurl fireballs IN THE PLOT.

I don't have the book anymore and
I do not know if it is online but I got it at library before I moved to where I live now.
I can't remember the name of the book
I think.So Kirby was being unoriginal by making the invisible woman wear a mask that Stan lee wrote IN THE PLOT of a book you don't have anymore, don't know if it's online and can't remember the name of the book.

Maybe the book is invisible.
Invisible Woman (remember, she originally had to wear a mask etc to be seen) Yeah I remember.

Wait! no I don't it wasn't ever in the comic!

[Biofungus]

Kirkman was being painfully sarcastic in that article. If Kirby hadn't taken all the good names in the 60's maybe Liefeld wouldn't have to use "Bloodwulf?" Yeah, there's no way that's a serious statement.


Maybe he was being more subtle, and referring to the naming of "G.W. Bridge" :laugh:

[protonik]

On a totally unrelated note, why does the Kaballah (at least, when you describe it this way), sound an awful lot like "Dianetics"? :confused:

Because a lot of Dianetics was taken from the Kaballah and so was Psychology. Actually, do a search on Hubbard and Jack Parsons and you'll see the origins of Scientology right there. The sci-fi elements of Scientology are just a mythology created for modern people to more easily assimilate when compared to angels etc. Do I like Scientology? No.

The Kabbalah of Madonna, Brittany etc is a more meditative practice while the Kabbalah I study deals in talismans, use of ritual and working with god names etc. ala the Golden Dawn.

[protonik]

You need to post proof of that. I've never seen that and I've got every Kirby FF in either original or reprint.So Kirby was being unoriginal by making the invisible woman wear a mask that Stan lee wrote IN THE PLOT of a book you don't have anymore, don't know if it's online and can't remember the name of the book.

Maybe the book is invisible.
Yeah I remember.

Wait! no I don't it wasn't ever in the comic!

I corrected myself on that one and the question wasn't what was unoriginal in Kirby;s Fantastic Four but what was unoriginal about the Fantastic FOur. The books were put out at the same time as the Origins of Marvel Comics and Sons of Origins by the same publisher.I'm trying hard to find a cover. I can't believe you guys never saw these little gems.

[theflash]

Because a lot of Dianetics was taken from the Kaballah and so was Psychology.

ok so in your opinion is there anything at all that's original? i mean if i put a whopper and a freakin frosty together, would that be original or would that be just taking someone else's stuff and putting them together? do i have to scratch something never before seen on the planet out of the ether to qualify as original under your definition? or might you have some holes in your theory where there's room to put original spins on old legends making them not only vital but actually legendary in their own right? hmmm?

and for the record, it doesn't mean shit if it wasn't in the comic. wish-we-wouldas don't count.

[protonik]

[QUOTE=protonik]Because a lot of Dianetics was taken from the Kaballah and so was Psychology. QUOTE]

ok so in your opinion is there anything at all that's original? i mean if i put a whopper and a freakin frosty together, would that be original or would that be just taking someone else's stuff and putting them together? do i have to scratch something never before seen on the planet out of the ether to qualify as original under your definition? or might you have some holes in your theory where there's room to put original spins on old legends making them not only vital but actually legendary in their own right? hmmm?

What does that have to do with Scientology? But, yeah, pretty much, its archetypal thinking. Read some Campbell.

[Biofungus]

Whenever I'd get a drink out (I'm talking soda at a fast food place), I used to love to mix different flavors. Last time I went to Burger King with my friend, I saw that they actually have a "chart" there for mixing flavors! So did I rip off an old concept, and they ripped me off, or was I being original, and they still ripped me off (either way, can I sue them? Or at least get them to rename one of the concoctions "the icey fungus"? :p)

[carriertone]

Oh crap! I just realised that Spider-ham isn't even original! He's a rip-off of Spider-man! Is there no originality left in comics? :)

- C

[protonik]

Ermmm, no. LOL And I found the name of the book I was talking about on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Fantastic-Four-Marvels-Stories-Sensational/dp/0516024124/sr=1-49/qid=1161661434/ref=sr_1_49/104-3895257-8047942?ie=UTF8&s=books

[Biofungus]

[QUOTE=theflash]

What does that have to do with Scientology? But, yeah, pretty much, its archetypal thinking. Read some Campbell.
He's referring to your penchant for saying that everything is derivative of something else (even Dianetics and Scientology).

[theflash]

[QUOTE=theflash]

What does that have to do with Scientology? But, yeah, pretty much, its archetypal thinking. Read some Campbell.


you either really don't get it, or you are so stuck in the mud you can't bring yourself to admit you are wrong and have been since the first post you made in this thread. either way, at least it killed the time i would have spent watching my team lose the game tonight.

and i don't need Campbell. i UNDERSTAND Kirby.

[protonik]

And the cover:

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k62/teitan/secretstory_redimensionar.gif

[protonik]

[QUOTE=protonik]
He's referring to your penchant for saying that everything is derivative of something else (even Dianetics and Scientology).

It's true though. Look up Jack Parsons and then do some comparisons of Scientology and Kabbalah and Aleister Crowley.

[protonik]

[QUOTE=protonik]


you either really don't get it, or you are so stuck in the mud you can't bring yourself to admit you are wrong and have been since the first post you made in this thread. either way, at least it killed the time i would have spent watching my team lose the game tonight.

and i don't need Campbell. i UNDERSTAND Kirby.

Except I'm NOT wrong and I UNDERSTAND Kirby as well. I swear, where did all these Kirby fans come from, 12 years ago I'd be fighting with people cause I think Kirby is great... :blink:

[Biofungus]

This discussion is over, methinks.

It basically all comes down to Protonik's (why did you pick the name of a stomach medication?) definition of "original" versus what is obviously the generally accepted definition (on this site at least, with regards to comic book creators).

[protonik]

You all seem to think I am saying there is nothing unique or innovative or great about Kirby. I'm not saying that at all. You all seem flabbergasted that I don't perceive the same way you do the King's "originality" etc. No, I just don't think he should be mythologized and people also aren't taking into account his collaborators etc. Kirby wasn't shittting these things out on his own, Stan Lee was a HUGE help. What about Joe Simon? People are also forgetting that a LOT of what people say about Liefeld now, they were saying about Kirby 12-20 years ago. Kirby was UNIQUE, he had a great, singular vision that redefined the industry but so does George Lucas but people don't call Lucas original. Kirby was exploring variations on themes and ideas that are universal and archetypal and was very candid about it. The word "original" is bandied about too much and has come to have several meanings that are inappropriate.

I understand Kirby;s contribution and have been preaching about Kirby since I was 12 years old and realized that the guy who was drawing these comics I liked was named either Kirby or Byrne or Buscema. Kirby was the industry even during the Golden Age and is creatively the most successful artist the industry has ever seen or will ever see. He's the Jim Brown of comics, often imitated but never matched and never exceeded.

J

[protonik]

This discussion is over, methinks.

It basically all comes down to Protonik's (why did you pick the name of a stomach medication?) definition of "original" versus what is obviously the generally accepted definition (on this site at least, with regards to comic book creators).

Huh? Stomach medication? It's a character from Mutants & Masterminds, a soviet superman who was actually a hero for the world kind of thing...

[Biofungus]

You seem to be forgetting that many of Kirby's collaborators, like Lee and Simon, are often mentioned in the same breath as he is. ;)

[Biofungus]

Huh? Stomach medication? It's a character from Mutants & Masterminds, a soviet superman who was actually a hero for the world kind of thing...
http://www.protonix.com/

;) maybe his name is derivative?

[protonik]

You seem to be forgetting that many of Kirby's collaborators, like Lee and Simon, are often mentioned in the same breath as he is. ;)

Not in this thread, its been all about Kirby... :cool:

[protonik]

http://www.protonix.com/

;) maybe his name is derivative?

Could be but its the Anglicized version of the Russian spelling so I don't know. I don't really care and if you think that is my problem then you need to rethink the WHOLE arguement. I don't care if something is derivative because I think its fucking awesome. I just get pissed when people talk about so and so being a rip off but other creators getting a pass, and I mean more than Rob Liefeld in that regard, for doing the same thing and fans making excuses. I think Greg Land should be blackballed personally.

[protonik]

This is Protonik

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k62/teitan/protonik.jpg

[Biofungus]

Not in this thread, its been all about Kirby... :cool:
Because he, and Liefeld are the subject of this thread. You're the one who keeps bringing up Kirby's collaborators.

[carriertone]

I just get pissed when people talk about so and so being a rip off but other creators getting a pass, and I mean more than Rob Liefeld in that regard, for doing the same thing and fans making excuses.

I repeat...
...Kirby based Mister Miracle on escape artists, Liefeld ripped off Bloodwulf from Lobo. See the difference?

Well...do ya?

- C

[Biofungus]

Could be but its the Anglicized version of the Russian spelling so I don't know. I don't really care and if you think that is my problem then you need to rethink the WHOLE arguement. I don't care if something is derivative because I think its fucking awesome. I just get pissed when people talk about so and so being a rip off but other creators getting a pass, and I mean more than Rob Liefeld in that regard, for doing the same thing and fans making excuses. I think Greg Land should be blackballed personally.
I'm guessing you don't read around DW much, do you?

Land just got his ass textually handed to him just last week on this forum. And Kirby isn't getting a pass for what you see as "ripping off" (or being "unoriginal"). It's that YOUR definition of what "original" is, for the most part, is unique to the general consensus, and by espousing that definition above others (or even above what is generally accepted), you are trivializing the contributions of Kirby (and other creators) to a mere shell of what they actually are.

[Mr.Musgrave]

What's really funny is that he thinks Land should be blackballed but Liefeld gets a pass even though he does EXACTLY what Land does. A tracer is a tracer.

[The Scribe]

So, what is wrong with Greg Land again? :blink: :man:

Large picture.

http://nippon.fnal.gov/~alstone/photos/WizardWorld2003/scans/sojourn23.jpg


http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/PHOENIX01_COV.jpg

[carriertone]

So, what is wrong with Greg Land again? :blink: :man:

What's wrong is that he's an obviously talented artist that for some reason feels the need to trace other's work. I just don't get it. He sure does trace zombies well though. :)

- C

[Mr.Musgrave]

So, what is wrong with Greg Land again? :blink: :man:


He's a well known and well documented tracer. Well, until Marvel changed their original artwork policy anyway (Thanks, KD!) I guess he might actually have to learn to draw now.

From Marvel:

MARVEL ORIGINAL ARTWORK POLICY

ALL--
There's been some confusion regarding the use of copyrighted materials in work submitted to Marvel. Please note that Marvel pays for original artwork, and your work made for hire contract requires you to represent that everything you are doing for Marvel is original.

It is appropriate to use photographs or other copyrighted works for inspiration, for example if you need to see what the architecture of New Orleans looks like. However, what you cannot do is copy or take so many elements from a protected work that you effectively copy it.

Therefore, NEVER copy a photograph or any artwork you do not own the copyright in or that you re not sure is in the public domain. Photographers own the copyright in their works (or they have assigned the copyright to a publisher, etc.) and they are notoriously protective of their work. The same can be said of any paintings, print, scupture, etc.

There is a fine line between HOMAGE and RIP-OFF--make sure you are firmly on the side of using your own creative elements. A simple rule of thumb is to consider whether someone looking at your drawing and the reference material will think that one is derivative of the other. If so, you have gone too far and taken too much.

We know you want to bring an incredible sense of realism to the page and want to support you. Please speak with your editors regarding any concerns or questions that you have regarding the use of reference materials. By working together, we can create a work that is both inspired and unique.

Thanks for your time,
David Bogart

Here are some good examples:

http://remix17.livejournal.com/12070.html

[The Scribe]

I'm not sure. I like his art. Especially on Sojourn.

I was going to start buying a few Crossgen titles but by that time they were gone. :man:

I don't get the Swimsuit issue "ripoff."

Who reads that magazine? :laugh: :p

[ponyrl]

What's wrong is that he's an obviously talented artist that for some reason feels the need to trace other's work. I just don't get it. He sure does trace zombies well though. :)

- C
look at his work on Nightwing.

[Mr.Musgrave]

look at his work on Nightwing.


Look at that link where it shows his tracing for his "work" on nightwing.

[RandallFlagg]

Man, I fall asleep for 3 hours, and this jumps up to 4 pages. Well, I guess it might not be too late to post my opinion. Kirby was a fun artist who left what is quite possibly the biggest artistic impact on comic books ever. His anatomy wasn't perfect. Nobody in real life looks like that. But let's not forget something: comics aren't supposed to depict real life. They are supposed to be entertaining. Kirby understood that people want to be entertained. They want dynamic poses and tons of action. And that's what he did. His costume designs were original. He was a great innovator. And he could have drawn figures with perfect anatomy had he wanted.

Liefeld however, is a completely different subject. The man made two lasting contributions to comics: Cable and Deadpool. Oh, and the 346 new muscles he invented. He has never once shown that he can draw correctly. Why does no one change facial expressions? Is it because they can't unclench their hands? Is it because their heads are so much smaller than their bodies? I don't know. What I do know is the only way that Kirby and Liefeld are comparable is that they do have a lot of energy in their art. This is one of the many things Kirby had going for him. This is all Liefeld has.

[sgm]

When people use the term "original" to describe the work of an artist in any field it's to show admiration and the huge effect they had on those that came after them. We don't use the term literally, but it is used none-the-less as a means of respect.

To argue that no artist, nor creator in any field deserves the honor of being described as original is insulting to ALL people. It belittles our creative achievements and serves only one purpose: to offend.

[Nitecrawlah2]

I almost feel cheated out of buying the Ultimate Fantastic Four issues that I own. I never purchased them for the artwork (save for Jae Lee, of course), as I'm a huge fan of the stories and possibilities of an ultimate FF rediscovering all the things that made them cool. Every issue of Land's artwork I own lacks emotion, the images are stiff as a board, and the same characters look different from panel to panel ON THE SAME PAGE! I just never found him to be that good of a sequential artist, and can see how these opinions of his artwork easily relate to the "symptoms" of tracing/copying other work. If Liefeld's the new Kirby, then Land is the new Liefeld.

Hey Steve, how recent are those changes to Marvel's art guidelines?

[the machine]

sgm, you're right about land...I appologise.


lol....but...i'm still attracted to realism...where's cary nord when you need him?

lol

[Mr.Musgrave]

Hey Steve, how recent are those changes to Marvel's art guidelines?

Within the last week or so apparently.

[Buckyrig]

[QUOTE=theflash]

What does that have to do with Scientology? But, yeah, pretty much, its archetypal thinking. Read some Campbell.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Dude... :sure:

[Nitecrawlah2]

Within the last week or so apparently.
Ha, so we know damn well who/what prompted Marvel to make this move ;).

[The-Spirit]

This discussion is over, methinks.

It basically all comes down to Protonik's (why did you pick the name of a stomach medication?)
Because he makes me wanna go take a crap.

[hellblazer72]

i think i got here a little late :) kirkman's comparison of liefeld to kirby is not the first time that i've heard this...the first time is from rob himself...in an issue of wizard...i think around issue 150 ..i know it has the hulk on the cover because i bought the issue a few weeks ago for a bart sears piece in it and low and behold a liefeld interview where he compares himslef to kirby..

[HaphazardJoy]

Yeah, declaring Fantastic Four as a very original line up doesn't really hold water. Plastic Man, the Invisible Man, The Human Torch (refering to the Timely Comics character that predates Kirby's version but looked nearly identical), and Frankenstein's monster meets the Golem. A lot of characters that Kirby created were derivative, as are a large majority of characters from back then. Batman was Zorro meets Sherlock Holmes, Supes was Doc Savage and... what was the dude's name... Sentinel or Paladin or something? I don't hold that against Kirby, but I do hold it against Liefeld a bit. As comics became more modern and shifted more towards teen and adult audiences, I think we saw an increase in original ideas and in character depth. Still influenced by the past of course, but literal translation of previous characters wasn't as common. So I think what Kirby was doing back in the 50's and 60's was great, but by the 80's, a lot of that kind of character lifting was no longer the norm. Now Liefeld, for the 90's, not feelin' it so much on the character creation aspect.

For more original Kirby creations you have stuff like the Externals, New Gods, Inhumans, and Galactus and the Silver Surfer.
On the other hand there's Liefeld's creations....... Cable, who was a collaborative effort who only got most of his depth after Liefeld, and Deadpool, who is Spidey in Deathstroke's body (and one of my least favorite x-characters ever), and who could forget Bloodwulf (omg, Lobo and Wolfsbane sure make ugly kids).

I read that article more on the topic of illustration, not so much creation.

[Mr.Musgrave]

Ha, so we know damn well who/what prompted Marvel to make this move ;).


Oh, I'd bet $50 someone finally busted Land on his copyright infringement and Marvel is looking to head-off any future lawsuits or what not.

[Raven]

People, this is obviously a publicity stunt.

Kirkman got on TV and it still didn't help his numbers. Now its time to be controversial and get those sales numbers up so he can buy his Youngblood stories in hardcover this Christmas, since you know, Liefeld isn't giving out comps.
:)

[j giar]

I just found this so I'm a little late in responding....So I'm going to put my... whatever... in and say my piece like everyone else. I'm a child of the 70's and 80's. I grew up on Kirby, Ditko, Steranko, The Buscema's, Colan....you get the gist of it. When I first read the thread title I thought...alright, someones just fuckin a round and tryin to stir up shit...make it interesting. Give us all something to talk about. Then I read Mr. Kirkmans article...at first I was pissed!
I was ready to stop readin' Walking Dead! Hey, as the saying goes, opinions are like assholes..everyone has one. But to compare Leifield to Kirby is just completely assinine! In fact I would more likely compare Eric Larsen to Kirby for his pure enthusiasm and energy than Liefeld. I can somewhat see Kirkmans logic or principal behind his proclamation...but I feel Rob just falls way short! True his work has energy and the kids are drawn to it like flies... but flies are also drawn to shit and garbage. Rob's work is..well..it's an aquired taste. One I particularly cannot swallow. Let's get the record staright, Liefeld would not be Liefeld without Kirby. As is true with most of us. True most of Kirby's characters you could pull from elsewhere. But that could be said about most any comicbook character. My problem lies with the fact that Kirby put a lot of though into his work. There was a reason. The intricacies of his panel designs and the thought that went behind them...there was a purpose. I don't know. From what I've seen...Mr. Liefeld is putting little thought into creating or design work and blatantly pulling from someone elses work. I won't be replying to this thread again. I feel it's got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've heard spouted by anyone sense the whole artists are more important than writers debate from years ago. And I've already spent to much time typing this response.

[Justice41]

If Kirby was un-original then show me the comics characters and concepts he pulled from. If I add a new doodad to an existing doodad guess what? That's an original concept. For anyone to say Kirby was not original, but Rob is has zip, zero, nada, credibility. Nothing said after that matters. All credibility lost.
Geez, I wonder what Kirby stole from the KatzenJammer kids strip? Because as we all know there was an abundant of comics out there for Kirby to lift Ideers from right, right? Give it up proto, you sound like a pundit who praises the person before you start bashing them. Once a person praises then throws in the word ,"But", just dismiss their words because everything before the,"But", is a lie.

[ponyrl]

Look at that link where it shows his tracing for his "work" on nightwing.
:huh: didn't know that.

But I meant his work on the limited series that came before the NW series. There was a 6 part mini.

[Phatman]

I'm sort of like Campbell, I see things and understand them by their archetypes. I have studied the Kabbalah for 13 years now and it has kind of trained me to think in that way Bio-fungus. I reduce things to their common denominators which is why I see "original" and "innovative". Now there are original things like Genesis P. Orridge and the origination of industrial music because it wasn't a mix of previously existing influences but experiments in soundscapes to generate new types of music. I think the word "original" is over used like when people see a Goth kid in a small town they call him "original" when we all know goth isn't unique or original. See what I mean?

Being a dumbshit is neither unique nor original. The entire point you are trying to make about Kirby is completely wrong. His work is the basis of superhero comics as they are today-period. End of story.

Rob Liefeld is an important figure of comics in the '90s because of his trailblazing with McFarlane, Silvestri and Lee to form Image and nothing more. Time and perspective put all artists into their proper place in history and Liefeld's work will be only a blip compared to Kirby's contribution to the medium. I'm glad Mr. Kirkman and a lot of others his age got into comics because of the dynamics and energy they liked in Rob's work, however, this doesn't make the work good or bad, just popular. In the end, all artists are judged on their whole body of work on it's merits and impact on the medium. As time passes, the Image artists will be judged on their work, and the memory of their Levi commercials, toys, and Wizard awards will be forgotten.

[protonik]

I'm guessing you don't read around DW much, do you?

Land just got his ass textually handed to him just last week on this forum. And Kirby isn't getting a pass for what you see as "ripping off" (or being "unoriginal"). It's that YOUR definition of what "original" is, for the most part, is unique to the general consensus, and by espousing that definition above others (or even above what is generally accepted), you are trivializing the contributions of Kirby (and other creators) to a mere shell of what they actually are.

First of all, you guys on this baord are NOT looking good with all the name calling (not directed at biofungus) that occured after I went to bed. So kiss my ass in that regard and STILL many of you think I am attacking Kirby and I am not.

I am NOT saying Kirby ripped anything off, I never said that and that is knee jerk reactionary bullshit. You read my opinion and you knee jerk to it... now has my point been made about all those people BITCHING about Kirkman and his opinion on Liefeld and threatening to drop his books? I got the reaction I wanted. You are ALL acting like I said Kirby was a rip off artist. I never said that. I said Kirby's concepts and characters aren't original and I used a much stronger word to describe them... UNIQUE but nobody picked up on that. How about my Lucas comparison. Was Star Wars original? Is Indiana Jones original? No. Star Wars is based on fairy tales and Flash Gordon, what Lucas did in that case was take something and give it a unique spin, a new visual flair and a fresh idea. Indiana Jones is Alan Quartermain in WWII and straight up jungle adventure pulp serials. Again, a fresh take on an old concept brought into a new medium. I don't see how that is ANY different from what Kirby was doing.

BACK THE FUCK UP.

[protonik]

When people use the term "original" to describe the work of an artist in any field it's to show admiration and the huge effect they had on those that came after them. We don't use the term literally, but it is used none-the-less as a means of respect.

To argue that no artist, nor creator in any field deserves the honor of being described as original is insulting to ALL people. It belittles our creative achievements and serves only one purpose: to offend.

Well, I didn't mean to offend. Trust me, I am a large admirer of Kirby, have been for years and I know his legacy, I care about his legacy but I try to be balanced. Just as Stan Lee apologists tend to downplay Kirby's importance, I think Kirby supporters tend to downplay Stan Lee's contribution and miss the point that Stan provided the character and Kirby the visuals for the characters.

[protonik]

If Kirby was un-original then show me the comics characters and concepts he pulled from. If I add a new doodad to an existing doodad guess what? That's an original concept. For anyone to say Kirby was not original, but Rob is has zip, zero, nada, credibility. Nothing said after that matters. All credibility lost.
Geez, I wonder what Kirby stole from the KatzenJammer kids strip? Because as we all know there was an abundant of comics out there for Kirby to lift Ideers from right, right? Give it up proto, you sound like a pundit who praises the person before you start bashing them. Once a person praises then throws in the word ,"But", just dismiss their words because everything before the,"But", is a lie.


And here we go again... where did I say Rob was original? Where did I say Kirby stole from someone else. Like I said REACTIONARY KNEE JERK REACTIOn without looking at what I REALLY said. Not everything before the "but" is a lie, that is YOUR interpretation and not how it works. You can praise the work of someone and then also look at their flaws, its called BALANCE. Like when you get an art critique, it is good to hear what you did right as well as what you did wrong. Does hearing what you did wrong after what you got right make the initial statements a lie? No it doesn't.

[protonik]

Yeah, declaring Fantastic Four as a very original line up doesn't really hold water. Plastic Man, the Invisible Man, The Human Torch (refering to the Timely Comics character that predates Kirby's version but looked nearly identical), and Frankenstein's monster meets the Golem. A lot of characters that Kirby created were derivative, as are a large majority of characters from back then. Batman was Zorro meets Sherlock Holmes, Supes was Doc Savage and... what was the dude's name... Sentinel or Paladin or something? I don't hold that against Kirby, but I do hold it against Liefeld a bit. As comics became more modern and shifted more towards teen and adult audiences, I think we saw an increase in original ideas and in character depth. Still influenced by the past of course, but literal translation of previous characters wasn't as common. So I think what Kirby was doing back in the 50's and 60's was great, but by the 80's, a lot of that kind of character lifting was no longer the norm. Now Liefeld, for the 90's, not feelin' it so much on the character creation aspect.

For more original Kirby creations you have stuff like the Externals, New Gods, Inhumans, and Galactus and the Silver Surfer.
On the other hand there's Liefeld's creations....... Cable, who was a collaborative effort who only got most of his depth after Liefeld, and Deadpool, who is Spidey in Deathstroke's body (and one of my least favorite x-characters ever), and who could forget Bloodwulf (omg, Lobo and Wolfsbane sure make ugly kids).

I read that article more on the topic of illustration, not so much creation.

SOmeone seems to get what I am saying and is being a bit clearer about it. Why haven't you guys tried ass raping Haphazardjoy yet?

J

[JasonM]

The problem with your perspective is that according to it, nothing can ever be original because it's still derived from something else. Inspiration is the influence of other things.

[protonik]

Being a dumbshit is neither unique nor original. The entire point you are trying to make about Kirby is completely wrong. His work is the basis of superhero comics as they are today-period. End of story.


Who is arguing against this cause they're wrong. If you think I am then you are putting words in my mouth cause I said NO SUCH THING.

[Buckyrig]

The problem with your perspective is that according to it, nothing can ever be original because it's still derived from something else. Inspiration is the influence of other things.

No one has ever written or drawn anything that does not already exist, even if in composite or amalgam.

It's a non-point. :sure:

[Buckyrig]

I am NOT saying Kirby ripped anything off, I never said that and that is knee jerk reactionary bullshit.


Uhm...what!? :huh:

I think you might need to check a dictionary.

[protonik]

Uhm...what!? :huh:

I think you might need to check a dictionary.

For what? They are REACTING to things I said in a very knee jerk manner, without thinking of what I am trying to say or understand my perspective. It's very Christian fundamentalist.

[Justice41]

For what? They are REACTING to things I said in a very knee jerk manner, without thinking of what I am trying to say or understand my perspective. It's very Christian fundamentalist.
And with that bit o Hatred your last shred of credibility flies ut the window. You're done buddy.

[LilGreenMan]

Ok, maybe Kirby's characters aren't original. He was never known for that. What he was known for was original DESIGNS and dynamic ART that no one else was doing. Any artist worth his weight will acknowledge this.

Liefeld...Cable is all he has, every character he's created looks just like cable..i'll give him domino too but that's it. No originality in design with him.

[dano]

No one has ever written or drawn anything that does not already exist, even if in composite or amalgam.

It's a non-point. :sure:

What about cave men? I bet they drew some wacky crap.

[Buckyrig]

What about cave men? I bet they drew some wacky crap.

My point is really that one can only draw from sensory input. Creativity lies in how you rearrange and edit that input into a final product.

Whatever even a caveman drew was their interperatation or reimagining of things they had experienced.

It's why I say it's a non-point. Only the universe (or God, or whatever you want to ascribe it to) has truly created anything original.

So...it comes down more to whether or not you are aping or stealing from other artists...not extrapolating on already existing ideas...since even the earliest expression of those ideas were themselves culled from the existing.

(Jiminy Cricket, but that is worded strange. :blink: Sorry.)

[JasonM]

No one has ever written or drawn anything that does not already exist, even if in composite or amalgam.

It's a non-point. :sure:

That's what I was saying, only with less words. If he wants to call nothing original thats fine, but that's splitting hairs.

[Buckyrig]

That's what I was saying, only with less words. If he wants to call nothing original thats fine, but that's splitting hairs.

I know.

Wasn't arguing with you. Just springboarding from your post. ;)

[JasonM]

I know.

Wasn't arguing with you. Just springboarding from your post. ;)

Well, stop confusing me with your superior use of the smiley! Show off!

[Scott Story]

I didn't read this whole thread, because I'm sure I've heard it before. I just figure with the great passion Rob's name inspires, he must be a great artist. He can thank everyone here for cementing his place in the history books. :yawn:

[j giar]

My point is really that one can only draw from sensory input. Creativity lies in how you rearrange and edit that input into a final product.

Whatever even a caveman drew was their interperatation or reimagining of things they had experienced.

It's why I say it's a non-point. Only the universe (or God, or whatever you want to ascribe it to) has truly created anything original.


(Jiminy Cricket, but that is worded strange. :blink: Sorry.)

O.K. I said I wouldn't post again in this thread...but I saw it burst into flames and I've come to dance around it in my animal skins...
So Bucky, what you are saying is that Liefeld is god..?? Or that Liefeld is The Universe..?? Or tha Liefeld is Jiminy Cricket??? Wait?!... What?

[Mr.Musgrave]

I didn't read this whole thread, because I'm sure I've heard it before. I just figure with the great passion Rob's name inspires, he must be a great artist. He can thank everyone here for cementing his place in the history books. :yawn:


You should read the thread. It's almost entirely about one idiots misunderstanding of the word "original." The entire board has gathered together against the idiocy. It's kind of nice, really. If you like watching a bunch of people curb stomp the neighborhood retard, anyway.

[Buckyrig]

O.K. I said I wouldn't post again in this thread...but I saw it burst into flames and I've come to dance around it in my animal skins...
So Bucky, what you are saying is that Liefeld is god..?? Or that Liefeld is The Universe..?? Or tha Liefeld is Jiminy Cricket??? Wait?!... What?

Nope.

Too ontological I guess. No one creates anything if we're going to backtrack to the beginning of time as is being done here with "Kirby took this and that" and what have you. That's all the creative process is. Hopefully you are taking your subject matter from the world around you rather than other people's art, but still.

I also think it's funny that proto keeps referring to powers and shit. Who the fuck cares about powers. They have fuck all to do with character or story most of the time anyway.

It's a hilarious thread though. :kewl:

If I was strung out on PCP and whiskey with Bullfinch and Britannica laid out in front of me getting an altoid hummer, I couldn't come up with half this shit.

:bounce:

[protonik]

And with that bit o Hatred your last shred of credibility flies ut the window. You're done buddy.

Hatred? Who expressed hatred? I expressed an attitude similar to Christian fundamentalist who are very Knee jerk reaction. Look at the uproar over the Last Temptation of Christ and onyl because they HEARD it included a scene of Jesus and Judas engaging in homosexuality together. One small reason why but it was a knee jerk reaction nonetheless because if they actually watched the movie they would see it is about reaffirmation of faith and is very uplifting and spiritual. I didn't say Christian Fundamentalists are evil and I hate them, I used them as an example of knee jerk reactions.

[protonik]

I referred to powers? Where? I referred to CONCEPTS, not powers and Mr. Fantastic as PLastic Man with a scientist mind is an example of a CONCEPT. The INvisible Man as a woman is a CONCEPT.

[Buckyrig]

The concept of FF is a family of adventurers with powers.

[Phatman]

You should read the thread. It's almost entirely about one idiots misunderstanding of the word "original." The entire board has gathered together against the idiocy. It's kind of nice, really. If you like watching a bunch of people curb stomp the neighborhood retard, anyway.

A gathering of Protonik's convoluded nonsensical musings on art, Liefeld, Lucas, and Kirby:



Kirby was HARDLY original.
What Kirby did was introduce popular concepts to comics that existed in other media.
Liefeld's characters are hardly rip offs,
Rob never said they were original in concept, but they are unique in his interpretations of the concepts and directions he wanted to take the characters.
The same applies to Kirby then because he was a story stealin', panel swipin', son of a gun!!
Kirby was the king but he is credited with FAR, FAR more than he actually did. Kirby was great, he did a hell of a lot. He was innovative.
You are mistaking originality for innovation. Was Star Wars original? No and most people don't claim it is. It is an innovative take on another concept.
Dude, I'm not insulting Kirby. Nowhere did I insult Kirby. Kirby is my all time favourite artist,
that doesn't make him original, it means he was prolific and innovative and he helped to create ideas that resonated with the audience. Here we can say this: the Silver Surfer was an original take on the concept of the Angel as Herald but NO WAY can you say the SIlver Surfer is an original concept. You simply can't. You can't say that about ANY of his characters and ideas he put into comic book form and to think you can is to simply mythologize Kirby.
Deadpool? You forgot Deadpool? He had some great unique takes actually.
Youngblood was unique
the way Rob did it laid the groundwork for the Ultimates. Bloodstrike? C'mon, that was a unique concept,
Liefeld's comics had the problem that he didn't have talented enough writers to explore the concepts he wanted and we got generic action comics with generic personalities.
I am a Liefeld fan
Liefeld DID help to change the way the artwork was approached also, the Image style was defined by Liefeld, Lee and McFarlane and is a staple, sad as that may be, of the industry.
both master the action scene and both have been maligned in their careers after a period of insane popularity and both have created hundreds, if not thousands, of characters but Rob isn't the new Kirby.
I don't really see anything as entirely original. Unique in the way that they explore certain archetypes but not original.
There are a lot of myths about Liefeld's career that aren't true.
Kirby had some "original" ideas in the broadest sense of the word as opposed to the actual definition.
If you REALLY want to get technical, all Kirby created for the Surfer was a visual, Stan Lee created a persona, origin, etc for the Surfer.
The arguement is that Kirby is original. Well, if I take Star Wars and create my own spin and put it in a comic book does that make it original? Was Nick Fury AGent of Shield original?
the question wasn't what was unoriginal in Kirby;s Fantastic Four but what was unoriginal about the Fantastic FOur.
I'm NOT wrong and I UNDERSTAND Kirby as well
I think Kirby is great...
You all seem to think I am saying there is nothing unique or innovative or great about Kirby. I'm not saying that at all.
People are also forgetting that a LOT of what people say about Liefeld now, they were saying about Kirby 12-20 years ago. Kirby was UNIQUE, he had a great, singular vision that redefined the industry but so does George Lucas but people don't call Lucas original.
Kirby was the industry even during the Golden Age and is creatively the most successful artist the industry has ever seen or will ever see. He's the Jim Brown of comics, often imitated but never matched and never exceeded.
I am NOT saying Kirby ripped anything off, I never said that and that is knee jerk reactionary bullshit.
You are ALL acting like I said Kirby was a rip off artist. I never said that. I said Kirby's concepts and characters aren't original and I used a much stronger word to describe them... UNIQUE but nobody picked up on that. Was Star Wars original? Is Indiana Jones original? No.
I am a large admirer of Kirby, have been for years and I know his legacy, I care about his legacy but I try to be balanced
where did I say Rob was original? Where did I say Kirby stole from someone else.


Let the beating continue...

[kdmelrose]

Is this thread done yet? No?

:whistlin:

[ponyrl]

You should read the thread. It's almost entirely about one idiots misunderstanding of the word "original." The entire board has gathered together against the idiocy. It's kind of nice, really. If you like watching a bunch of people curb stomp the neighborhood retard, anyway.
I ALMOST FELL OUT OF MY CHAIR LAUGHING AT THIS!? :laugh:

[protonik]

Aren't some of you VIOLATING your user agreement with the verbal ABUSE that you are subjecting me to? Just because you do not agree with my opinion does NOT give you the right to abuse me. MY god you'd think I was the guy who jammed the spear through the side of fucking Christ or was the Nazi that turned on the gas chambers. Forgive me for having a different opinion but PLEASE stop acting like I am HATING on Kirby or acting like Liefeld is his equal. I've NOT made that claim, I've not said ANYTHING of the sort.